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Zen Heretics and Ancestral Unity
The talk explores the concept of physical interactivity in Zen practice and the paradoxical nature of Zen teaching, focusing on the story of Wang Bo and the idea that true teachers of Zen do not distinguish themselves from others. The discussion further delves into the genealogy of Zen heretics, the symbolic relationship between practitioners and their ancestors, and the exploration of filial duty within the Zen tradition. It raises the notion that understanding and ignorance coexist, particularly examining how peace and unity within a Zen family are achieved by embracing collective suffering and engaging in authentic expression.
- Case 53 (Wang Bo's Drug Slippers): This story illustrates the teachings of Wang Bo, emphasizing that true teachers are indistinct, challenging conventional views of spiritual hierarchy within Zen.
- Discussion of Zen Heretics: Acknowledges notable Zen figures who transcended traditional norms, becoming recognized despite Zen's emphasis on non-distinctive teachings.
- Filial Duty in Zen: Explores the concept of fulfilling one's duty to ancestors and the interplay between intellectual understanding and the innate unity shared with the Zen lineage, critiquing common pitfalls in the pursuit of spiritual progress.
AI Suggested Title: Zen Heretics and Ancestral Unity
Side: B
Speaker: Tenshin Reb Anderson
Possible Title: Mon. class B of 5 - case 73
Additional text: MASTER
@AI-Vision_v003
I like meeting in here and being all packed in. It's nice. I like to be myself. The problem with this setup is, for me, is that it's hard for people to move around, which I'd like you to be able to do. But even though it's a problem to move around, I'd like you to be able to move around. I'd like you to move around. even if you have a problem moving around. I want the classes to start becoming more interactive, physically interactive. And partly because some people work really hard. It's hard for them to stay awake. So I want to keep the blood flowing and so on. So we need to keep the windows open for air. And what comes to mind is, which I mentioned this morning at a priest meeting, is case 53 of this book is, I believe, last time I looked, it was about Wang Bo's drug slippers.
[01:19]
And Wang Bo was a Zen teacher. seventh footer and he went into the hall one time the drug slippers are now looking through the book to try to find the story of the drug slippers um he went into his into his uh lecture hall one time and uh he started swinging his uh what were you mumbling about over there Oh, can I have a sip? You have your own dregs right there. But your dregs are not dregs for me. Charms. So he swung his staff around and the monks didn't move. And he said, If you travel like this, how will you have today?
[02:21]
You people are all drug slurpers. Haven't you, don't you know that in all of China there's no teachers of Chan, there's no teachers of Zen? And the monk, finally somebody came forward and said, well, what about all these monasteries all over China where people are gathering together and studying and so on? I didn't say there was no Zen. I said there's no teachers of Zen. The funny thing about Zen is that, like, Wang Bo is a very... very distinctive person who's telling us that there's really no distinctive persons. That's the real spirit of the way.
[03:28]
But it doesn't look like that in certain ways. This isn't a rigid rule or a rigid fact, but I don't know of any other school of Buddhist practice that so strongly emphasizes, you know, like genealogy. So like Andy made this nice chart. See? This is a chart, family tree of a number of many, how many, 100 or so? 100? 100 or so notable heretics. Because these guys all like became, they like stood out.
[04:35]
among all the Chinese people. And they weren't supposed to, but they did. So this is a record of a bunch of, you know, bad practitioners who somehow became famous and made people think that Zen masters were like better than ordinary people. Now, it didn't work on you, huh? Shopping. But still, here we are venerating our ancestors, our heretical ancestors, who were so outstanding that people couldn't help notice it, and they shouldn't have been. Yeah. And then I need to make more, and we can sell more. And by the way, congratulations to Andy who just published a book with many, many stories of outstanding heretics in China.
[05:41]
So there, you know, a new book's been published where you can read about, I don't know if you consider them your ancestors, but I consider them mine. All my ancestors in practice, not all of them, but many of them, Because I think in other, you know, non-Zen people also I consider to be my ancestors, my family. But only in Zen, somehow do people, do we focus on our family history, on the stories of our ancestors. So that's what this class is about, is about meditating on our ancestors, on our family, and trying to enter actually an actual relationship with our family, with our ancestors. To try to actually visualize ourself, our being, our person, in actual relationship
[06:54]
And to try to understand what kind of relationship our ancestors had with each other. And to try to have that kind of relationship with the ancestors and have that kind of relationship with each other. But as I've mentioned in a different number of contexts, I feel like the visualization or the imagination of ourselves as an actual relationship, an actual dialogue with the ancestors, with the wonderful teachers who weren't teachers, to bring it to fulfillment, It requires that we endanger ourselves, and the form of endangerment is to basically express ourselves.
[08:08]
That's the most dangerous, not the most dangerous, that's the type of endangerment that I'm talking about. To come out of the closet. To come out of the closet. to show the world who you are. But I'm not going to rush you. I'm just going to invite you. So I invite you to express yourself any time, any place, and hopefully fully show all of us something about yourself.
[09:10]
Lurking in the grasses, sticking to the trees, one turns into a spirit. How I propose. Being constrained and unjustly punished, one becomes a ghostly curse. When calling it, you burn paper money and present a horse. When repelling it, you curse water and write chants. How do you get peace in the family? These are Chinese kind of funereal practices.
[10:21]
burning paper money, making a paper horse and presenting it as an offering, these various kinds of curses and so on. How do we get peace in the family? Hmm? Is there peace in the family? Hmm? There's lurking. Is that how we get peace in the family? Lurking? Starts with a proper burial. Starts with a proper burial. Okay. Holding hands around the corpse. Holding hands around the corpse. What do you mean by holding hands around the corpse?
[11:39]
I mean being aware of life in the presence of death. Aware? Holding hands is being aware? Sounds more active than just being aware. You could just be, like, you could be standing in awareness around the course. Spreading the awareness, well, being. Spreading the awareness. Yeah. By spreading the awareness, how? First, by not doing anything. Well, I mean, especially when you did something, though, in your image, you touched somebody. You were touching somebody. Being more concerned about them than about me touching.
[12:44]
Being more concerned about them than you touching. By the way, some people... Do we touch each other in Zen? Did Buddha touch his disciples? Thanks for picking up on that one. I did a little research to see if Buddha ever touched his disciples. Yeah. Because I didn't know too many examples of Buddha. Like, you know, now, of course, sometimes in America, people hug, right? In American Zen, sometimes people hug. You ever seen them hug? Yeah. Sometimes they say, can you hug an abbot? If you're an abbot, sometimes people come up to you and say, can you hug an abbot? And some abbots say, no. And some abbots say, maybe. And some abbots say, yes. And then they say yes, they hug them. But I know of no examples of anybody hugging the Buddha. Does anybody know? So-and-so hugged the Buddha? He patted people on the head?
[13:45]
Yeah, he did. And also, one time, he was walking along with Ananda and he found this monk who was sick, I think dysentery or something, and he was also unable to move. He was so sick. He was lying in his own stuff with sores all over his body. And so he and Ananda, his attendant, picked the guy up. I think the Buddha took his head and Ananda took his feet or something. They lifted him up out of the stuff onto a raised area and washed him and gave him clean blood. So Buddha did touch this guy. didn't hug him, but it did pick him up. And there's another case where he touched an elephant who was charging him to calm him down. So there are some examples of when Buddha did touch people. Did he spray water on people? Yeah, he also sprayed water. That's a kind of an Indian medicinal thing. He'd put water in his mouth and spray people as a healing practice.
[14:47]
And not just people, also animals. So he did, in some cases, have direct physical contact with people. his usual intention to help them. So I think, you know, from the founder there is sometimes when we touch each other, but some people are not sure that, you know, in Zen if we ever touch each other. And I think the point is you touch each other when it's appropriate. And of course, the funny thing is that we used to touch each other with a stick, used to hit each other with a stick, and then we stopped that. But since then we haven't found necessarily a new way to touch each other. Adjusting posture. Adjusting posture, yeah. So I would like to have you be open to that dimension, so like holding hands, and also be open to saying that you don't want to hold hands if you don't want to.
[15:49]
You don't have to hold hands if you don't think it's appropriate. The society that came from in that day, there must have been all sorts of restrictions, you know, about the classes of people you touch and don't touch. Yes, right. I know he didn't recognize the caste system, but I don't know if he transgressed the rules either. Pardon? I'm not sure if he, you know, how much that plays into it. Well, I think one of the stories I've heard, the Buddha allowed outcasts, untouchables, to enter the Sangha if they met other requirements. And so this monk, I don't know what this monk's caste was, but if this monk was in an order and needed help, the Buddha would help, would touch the person, I believe.
[16:57]
And then, by the way, he went to the other monks who were living nearby and he asked them why they hadn't been taking care of this monk. And they said, well, because they didn't want to touch him, he was so filthy and so on. And the Buddha said, in the future, You should take care of each other. There's nobody else to take care of you guys except you guys, so you should take care of each other. You no longer have your regular families to care for you if you're ill, so you have to take care of each other. You know, I think that's one of the strong points of this particular Zen Center, you know, is that I think people, when they're sick, I think people do oftentimes notice that and take good care of them. And that's, really, we're really pretty good about that usually. But in terms of expressing ourselves in Dharma practice, I think we're not so sure about how to do that.
[18:05]
And that's what I'd like to work more on. So this monk asked Saushan. Saushan's one of the ancestors in here. Yeah? Not everybody has a copy of the case. So how many people need a copy of the case? Do you have any more, Diana? There's one person up in the front here that needs one. Do you have your hand up? So... the founder of the lineage in China which we call the Tsao Tung lineage, Tung Shan. The Tsao of the Tsao Tung is its Tsao Shan here.
[19:06]
So this person is a disciple of Tung Shan who You know, he just couldn't help himself, and he did a lot of kind of scholarly work, and then people started noticing him, and they noticed him so much that they, like, started to name the school after him. So he's another guy that got kind of off the track a little bit. Well, certainly, you know, he's our ancestor. We got bad, we kind of got a lot of criminals in our history on a family day. So that's the kind of family we've got. People that kind of violated the essence of the essential point and practiced in such a way that they stood out.
[20:09]
But this is our family. What can I say? I'm not going to reject them, but I think I should admit that I've got Some skeletons in the closet, in our closet. So this is about this Zen person who wasn't a teacher, but people say he was. And so the monk asked him, how about when morning clothes are not worn? And Sao Shan said, today, Sao Shan's filial duty is fulfilled. And then the monk said, how about when after fulfillment of filial duty, of filial piety? And Sao Shan says, Sasan loves to fall down drunk.
[21:14]
Or I love to get falling down drunk. OK? So this is an interaction between the ancestors. Want a seat, Lee? Do you want to stand up? I've decided to stand up. You prefer to stand up. Pardon? You're welcome. OK. So there it is. There's the, what do you call it, the public example. Is there anything you want to say about that or any questions or anything?
[22:23]
Anything you'd like to express about this? What does filial mean exactly? It means, you know, related to your family, related to your parents. Thank you. Yeah. I would say if you like to get falling down drunk, Pardon? Why would you say that after the guy's talking about doing illegal duty? Would somebody tell him, please? He doesn't have to. Oh, right. How is it? How is it? It's... Sasan likes to get falling down drunk. It doesn't seem like it. Yeah. That's the question. Would you say that again, please?
[23:25]
So Han said, how about after fulfillment of filial duty? And Sasan comes back with that he likes to get falling down drunk. I don't understand. You don't understand? No. Okay. You got a problem with that? Slight problem. What's the problem? I don't understand. You want to understand? Buddhists aren't supposed to drink. What? Buddhists aren't supposed to drink. Buddhists aren't supposed to drink? You mean not supposed to drink intoxicants with the intention of getting intoxicated? Maybe just a little bit for ceremonial purposes. So, are you looking for a loophole? I'm not looking for one. New Year's Day. Well, you're bringing up an important point. Thank you very much. Huh? Now, you're bringing up a point.
[24:27]
Your point is that you are a little bit uncomfortable not understanding. That was your point, right? That seemed to be, to me, one of the key points is you seem to be uncomfortable not understanding. So... What can you do? Well, yeah, what can you do? What can you do? Huh? Just keep listening. Keep listening? Just keep listening? No, not just keep listening. What else? Keep sitting. Keep sitting in your chair while you're listening. How about standing up? I do that. No, you did. Did you want to say something, parents, before I talk to him more? You did say something, but what was it? I think I said drinking. You just said drinking, just plain old drinking. Drinking. How come that came up? Do you know why? Do you know what the reason for that was? Barrett, by the way, said drinking. Barrett's this guy up in front here.
[25:30]
I think it came up because of something that Roberto said. And what came up then was that I think one way of... Generating peace in the family is to transgress the conventional. He thinks one way to find peace in the family is to transgress the conventional. That's what Barrett said. Something like that, right? That's what I said. Now, Matt, how does it feel to be uncomfortable not understanding? What's the problem with not understanding? Tell us about how it feels to not understand the way you don't understand. I think everyone here maybe knows how it is to not understand.
[26:37]
And so maybe I don't just say it. You don't have to, but I'd like to. All right. Everybody here knows everything, but yet we're trying to get it out and make it public, because this class is about public stuff. Right? We're trying to get everything to be public. You know, at the right time. There's a time and a place for everything. I'd like you to tell us what is appropriate to make public about your discomfort with not understanding. Well, it's sort of like trying to want everybody to get public with ourselves. And you're sort of wanting, one is wanting something to be a certain way to get their hands on. But you already have something being a certain way. You have your understanding. Right. But you think you call your understanding not understanding. Right.
[27:39]
What is that like when you don't understand? Actually, it's okay. I'm okay just sitting here with you guys. Sort of okay. It's sort of okay? Yeah, it's very okay. It's very? Oh, it's super okay. Super okay. So, sort of this uncomfortable switch is super okay? Sometimes it's uncomfortable, sometimes it's super okay. Well, this isn't... You don't want to talk about this, okay, but it's very important, I think, because I think in this class a lot of times people feel like they don't understand and they feel uncomfortable. But what's the matter with not understanding? You feel like you're left out. You feel like you're left out. You think somebody else understands. Does anybody understand why he said this thing about not falling down? Yes. Well, In the beginning, how is it when the mourning clothes are not worn?
[28:40]
I understand that to be the Buddha asked his disciples not to cry when he was dying because if they didn't cry and if it was OK, whatever was happening, then they really understood, which was their filial duty was fulfilled. That was really understanding if they're not going to, you know, go nuts if the teacher dies on them. But then how about after that? What's it like? I guess I understand this to be he's just going to live his life, that's all. He's going to live his life. So you do understand this? Sort of. You think you do? You got an understanding and you're happy with it? I'm not happy about the last one. Oh, but you're more happy with the other one? I'm very happy about the last one.
[29:44]
Just a second, Stuart. Yes? Who was it over there? Is it you, Carol? Yeah, that's what I thought. Please. I understand that when my duty is done, I really like eating hot fudge sundaes. When your duty is done, you like eating hot fudge sundaes. If you... I get it. Falling down, what? Like, yeah, like falling down drunk. Falling down sugar. Falling down sugar and fat. Chocolate. Chocolate. Falling down chocolate. Stuart and then Micah. I understand this entering into deluded states, willingly going into delusion.
[30:52]
Do you like that understanding? No. No. Okay, now. So I'd like to ask you, when you speak, even though I know it's not necessarily convenient, I'd like you to stand up. If you stand up, I'll stand up. I'll stand up. Every time everybody talks, I'll stand up. But then I'll stand up. Just tell me if you want to stand on the floor and remove the tape. You may fall over. Yeah, on my collar by a minus. Any real answers? Yeah. I'll catch. Maybe I could stand on the floor. The guy with the cool glasses. He's not wearing them. Cool glasses. Oh, excuse me. Micah. Please. Please. My understanding is that, well, it's one side, but it's that the filial duty, you have to feel like you're fulfilling it, you know?
[32:19]
So, and the fulfillment, it's never good to fulfill, so it's conflict fulfillment. So to really understand, at least with Khaoshan's point of view, you'd be fulfilling it constantly, and then you also have the experience of going down drunk, too. And then maybe... But, you know, there's still the ultimate understanding that that would be, like, the maximum that they can enter into this life. Would you hold Lee's hand for a second, Micah? Hold his hand? Yeah, hold his hand. His other one, his other hand. Hold his left hand. Hold his left hand. Yeah. Come on, Lee. Your wife's right there. Don't worry. Is it okay with you? Would you please hold Lee's hand? Lee, would you hold hands?
[33:21]
Would you hold hands with Micah, please? Huh? Your left hand. Hold. Just keep that up for a little while, would you? Yes? You're not next. You're not next. What happened? Keep it up, please. Okay, great. That's great. Yes, Liz? I just want to say that when I don't understand, I feel like things aren't in focus and I'm uncomfortable because I want it to be in focus. And every time someone says something that sounds good, I sort of feel like I'm going into focus, and I kind of feel my body relax, like, ah, yeah, that's it. And then somebody else says something else, and then I try to get my own understanding, but it's slippery, and it's like you're trying to focus a camera, and I'm more comfortable when you suddenly get focused.
[34:24]
You're more comfortable when you feel focused. Yeah, and then my body kind of relaxes. I don't feel so tense. You feel tense when you feel out of focus? Mm-hmm. I feel like I'm constantly doing this. Right. By the way, are you out of focus now or in focus? Well, I feel in focus right now on this. How are you feeling, Matt? Pretty focused. Don't feel like not understanding so much anymore? No. Not as much. I have my own little understanding now. You got one? Yeah. A little focus over there? Yeah. Do you feel more relaxed now? More relaxed. Okay. Is anybody here that now lives in matter okay? Is anybody here that doesn't understand still? Anybody feeling not focused? Are you feeling a little tense over there? Yes. Yeah. So, see, this is part of the deal. It's that bodhisattvas are not supposed to be better than other people. And that's part of what we're doing here. Sasyan's saying, oh yes, you're tense.
[35:26]
So the bodhisattvas are not like, I mean, you know, bodhisattvas do not kind of like, well, I've got my understanding, so I don't have to be tense like Liz. Liz and Dale, I don't want to, you know, yuck. Liz and Dale are tense and don't understand. I want to be over here, understand and focused. Now, this is nice of you to admit that, Liz, but, you know, the understanding of these koans is not about your understanding of these koans or my understanding of these koans. It's really not. There's no teachers of them. They understand and you don't. That's a different world. That's the world of Buddhas and sentient beings are separate. The Buddhas are like understanding, they're cool, and we don't, and we're tense. So if you're tense... Do you have to stand up?
[36:34]
No, because it's not your turn. Okay, good. Millions of people are going to... So you can relax and be, you know, don't worry. But then eventually we'll talk to you about this standing up or sitting down. You'd have to really go to a lot of work to stand up because you're sitting in triple lotus, right? So Liz, did you want to say anything other than that you're tense? Did you want to say anything other than that you're tense? I really appreciate what Stuart said because to willingly enter... Delusion would be like really letting go of a lot, really trusting, and not trying to grab control, and not trying to allow things to be out of focus. And I wouldn't have got that understanding unless I could appreciate contemplating that.
[37:35]
Yeah, so one possibility is to put together what various people said. Like Linda says, first of all, when your teacher dies, you're cool, right? You don't cry. You're all kind of non-attachable, right? Huh? No. What? That's not cool. That's not cool? What is cool on that occasion? On the occasion of the teacher dying? Yeah. What is complete, full exertion and expression, which could be crying. Which could be crying or... Or not crying. Or it could be wearing morning clothes or not wearing morning clothes. Right. Right. So anyway, maybe you fulfill, you know, you fulfill your piety, then you can be like, then you can join hands with all beings who maybe haven't fulfilled your piety, who don't know how to do this.
[38:36]
How do you do that? It's right there. It's so obvious that we can barely do it. Did you want to make a contribution? Yes. Please do. Stand up, please. I was going to say that I think that our failure of duty is to join with all beings. Yeah. Not after we join. The other thing I wanted to say is that I'll watch myself in this class when I don't understand something and I feel like I start to get lost. And the place that I start to get lost is the illusion that I'm all alone. It's all up to me to sort of figure out what we're talking about and figure out what the colon means. And what I really like is being able to just sit back and relax and what Liz was saying. Let what we're all talking about reverberate in the room, and then little pieces of the colon start to become more clear. Elenia? Who's standing? I think that someone said a few minutes ago that they would be separate from the group, something like that.
[39:45]
By the way, excuse me, are you leaning against the wall? Yes. Would you please not do that? Do you mind just like... Do you have any kinds of disability that cause you... No. Okay. Can I stand? Not that I know of. Okay, why don't you just... Yeah. Don't lean against the wall, please. The whole time? The whole class. All right. But particularly when you're talking. You can lean against the wall, but lean against the wall and see what it's like to lean against the wall and talk, and then see what it's like to lean, to sit up and come forward. It's much better to not lean against the wall. Yeah, you're more exposed, you know, that way. I feel more solid not leaning against the wall. Yeah, right. So please, excuse me, you're welcome. It feels to me like there's a way when I don't understand something that I've lost the usual company of my own mind. is what comes up for me.
[40:45]
And there's actually, I want to say, terrible discomfort with that. But what has been happening more lately or beginning to emerge lately is that I'm actually uncomfortable when I do understand. Because it just feels very dangerous. It feels dangerous to understand? Yeah. And not understanding doesn't feel dangerous? I think that's why I'm so uncomfortable these days because they're kind of equal right now. It's a very steam-crawling feeling a lot. Mm-hmm. Now, oh, now it's your turn, but you don't want to stand up? Is that what you're trying to say? No, I don't want to stand up. Don't want to stand up. But would you please? You can say no. Thanks. Will you turn around and talk to those people?
[41:46]
If you don't want to turn around, you don't have to. I just asked you to do it. Why don't you just turn around for a second and check them out? And then come back. Say hi. So I just wanted to say that maybe not everybody does feel uncomfortable about not understanding. I agree, not everybody does. I mean, it's a lot of people are not uncomfortable not understanding. Okay. Can I sit back down now? Yes, you definitely. Thank you for standing up. I appreciate that, the effort. Lee, who's already standing, yes? Yeah, should I sit down? Actually, that would probably be good if you came up here close and sat down. Come on. Come on up here, please. And sit down next to Roberta, but don't lean against the back of the chair.
[42:51]
Or sit on Dale's lap. Are you Dale? I completely forgot. Really? No, it was a line I liked. I like that too. I think I've been becoming very uncomfortable with understanding because I've strived to understand. And then when I do, it's almost like, so what? When I understand, I feel like I stay in my head and that that's not really the... It's a way I've lived.
[44:02]
It's striving to understand from an intellectual place. And when I do that, I feel like I miss my life. In what ways do you miss your life? By myself. By yourself, yeah. And what else? What else are you missing? What else? I'm missing life. I'm missing everything around, whatever else. You're missing everything around, but even something that's not around you, what are you missing? Not anything. You're missing your feet. You're missing your feet. My feet. You're missing your feet, right? Because the head's walking around. The head's walking around. Understanding the head's walking around. But then you miss your feet and you miss everything else pretty much between your head and your feet. You miss your thighs, you miss your knees, you miss your groin, you miss your gut, you miss your tummy, you miss your breast, you miss your neck, arms.
[45:08]
You miss all that when you're up and understanding like that up in your head, right? But, you know, that's our habit. A lot of us to walk along our head. I wanted to say that what I don't understand, it's very painful because I'm a drug slipper. So I want to get something from the koan. I want the koan to alleviate my pain. So if it doesn't do that, then it's painful. Right. And I didn't bring this thing up about genealogy and our family. just because this case is about duty to your family, filial piety to your family.
[46:12]
But there is this coincidence that we're talking about this is a family thing. We are Buddhist children and we don't have to do something to be Buddhist children. And you do not have to do anything to be one of these ancestors. You're already in this family. But it's hard for us to believe that. It's hard to believe that this is what it's like to be in Buddha's family. That this is a Buddha family meeting right here. We're having a family gathering of Buddha's children. And there's not some other Buddha's children that are... Now I don't get like this. It's harder. I don't get these wonders of understanding very often. But I got one in the United States about the humility law that declares every time you take a humility law.
[47:26]
So I thought that's nice. Pardon? There it is. There it is. What were the conditions under which this monk asked the question in the first place? What were the conditions such that he asked this question? Have you ever asked this question? Which question? How about when you don't wear the morning clothes? How about when morning clothes are not worn, then what? Have you ever asked that question? You have? So what were the conditions at that time? Or what are the conditions at such a time that that question came up?
[48:32]
Oh, it came up from suffering. It came up from suffering. Maybe that monk was suffering. And how is it that suffering would lead to this question? What do you mean, how is it? How would it happen? By meeting the suffering. By what? Meeting the suffering. By meeting the suffering. So meeting the suffering, your mouth will start going, when not wearing morning clothes, how is it? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. Did you want to say something, Carol? Yeah. Don't you just stand up? Yeah. One thing I wanted to say, before I came down, I thought, well, I might be sitting down, so no one will see. Or a dress over some hair. I thought it would be really cool. Would you show us? Make them out here so we can see?
[49:34]
No, the nose is thinner. It's not so bad, really. Can you see? It's just a dress. Looks nice. You've lost weight, huh? We'll see what... Okay, do you want me to... My answer to your last recent question? I just want you to say whatever you want to tell us. Okay. Well, first I'll say the last thing, which is you would ask that question like you thought somebody should be wearing it. Then I want you to say the close thing. Then I want you to stand up on most of the standings. Oh, and one other thing. The thing between understanding without understanding would be like the thing between calling and repelling. Calling and?
[50:37]
Repelling. Calling and repelling? Between. At the beginning it says, Uh-huh. Oh, I see. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Any of the people who have not stood up like to do that now? I wanted to say, kind of how it lives there, but to me, because I'm feeling of being tense and with... not understanding all the same exact feeling it's getting really loud. Say it again. So that's the feeling of being really tense and uncomfortable and not understanding. what's going on is really the same exact feeling. It's feeling really alive. And I feel that right now. And a lot of people do. But also, kind of, at the same time, a lot of just me, me, me, you know what I'm saying?
[51:41]
And it's like, oh, wanting to keep the whole class off myself, but then it's great because you can't. And then just... What do you mean, keep the whole class to yourself? Kind of. Well, like you said about school, kind of thinking that you can take it in, that you can somehow get it up, but you can't. So, just kind of like impenetrable relief that I'm not responsible. Okay. Yes, please stand up. Is it Benny? Benny, yes. I'm a little bit nervous. Not everybody here might be seen as good. And I might blush. I'm known to blush. All right. What I want to suggest is, often came to me that maybe silly or curious, but I've never done.
[52:49]
Same way that a Hispanic is never done. both are an endless process. And we feel, or maybe we should feel, that our understanding is endless. Yeah. But being fulfilled does not mean done. You can be fulfilled, but that's not the end. We can fulfill our duty right now and then again and again and again. That's what it's like to be in a family. Every moment you fulfill, you can't, to me it doesn't make any sense to fulfill your duty yesterday or tomorrow. It's now. But that doesn't mean the next minute you don't do it again. So it's fulfilled, it's complete, but not ended. So I agree with you, it's not ended. You're never done. Never done.
[53:54]
We're never done. That's why we keep having this class over and over. And it never gets more or less interesting, really. And we just keep going. And every week we come here and fulfill our filial duty. By coming here. By being together. That's what we do. We come and practice together. Over and over. But we never finish. Even when we finish the book, we won't be done. We'll just start over again with another book. I just wanted to add, coming from a Jewish family, there's always a feeling of guilt about not being good enough to your parents. Yes. It reminds me a little bit of the feeling that I get from not understanding the Koran, about not being good enough. Not being worthy enough of the fear of this family.
[55:00]
Everybody must understand something that I don't. Everybody else is a good son. My parents are perfect parents and I'm not worthy of them. You have that feeling somewhat. Oh, yeah. And you grasp it. You don't just have that feeling you think is true. The feeling? Yeah. You think it's true that you're not worthy. Well, I used to think it's true, but... You don't think so anymore? No. Good. Because it's not. It's just... Pardon? I'm aware of that, but I'm working on internalizing it and become more and more aware of it. More and more aware that you have that feeling. That it's not true, really. By the way, it's also not true that you're worthy.
[56:03]
It's also not true that you're worthy. So don't grasp that it's not true. Just don't grasp that it is true, and also don't grasp that it's not true. And that's what it's like not to understand. But that is understanding. But you don't understand. But that's understanding. But you don't understand. You're not in control, and you have no distance from suffering, but that is understanding. And when you have that, you're not afraid to be with these other people who don't understand. So please train yourself like that. Don't switch from being unworthy over to being worthy. Don't reject the idea that you're unworthy. Just don't grasp it and don't switch over to the other side that you are worthy.
[57:10]
You're beyond that. We're beyond that. But I see many people who keep flipping from one side to the other or mostly specialize in one side. And that does protect you in a certain way, your suffering, but it protects you from further suffering, from your suffering expanding into embracing the suffering of everybody. It does. But then you can't end suffering. because you're trying to control it. You can control suffering somewhat this way, by just being an unworthy person. Just grasp that, that'll be suffering, but you don't have to grasp the suffering of what it's like to be worthy, to grasp that. But if you don't grasp that either, then everything's open, all the suffering's open. Could be possible, could, is available.
[58:13]
And that's our family. That's our family. Our family is all the suffering. I just wanted to give a report. Thank you. Could you give the report in the other direction, please? Yes. Until recently, I just didn't have anything to say. I was sitting here and all this stuff was happening, I had nothing to say. About ten minutes ago, I read a point where all these comments came to mind, and I could have said something at any point. But other than what I'm saying now, nothing has stopped in my mouth. Are you wearing morning clothes? Am I? I'm a free soul.
[60:05]
My filial piety is not fulfilled. Please help so I can get drunk. I'm not yet ready to get drunk. Thank you for being so obedient. It says Rocky on it. How's that?
[61:16]
So I'm thinking, you know, I probably should finish my mourning before I die. So I wonder if I have any more mourning to do. For example, for my teacher. Why do you have to finish before you die? What just seems like it would be good, because after I'm dead I might not be able to, I don't know if I'll be able to continue mourning. So, I'd like to finish, actually I'd like to finish in the next few minutes. But I'm thinking now, am I really ready to be in the post-mourning stage? I'm considering that carefully. Because it seems like a big responsibility.
[62:31]
I'm trying to see if I'm really ready for it. I say, yes, I'm ready. Have a drink, then. You're my drink. You asked before the circumstances in which the smoke spoke. I'm wondering if that's still a question that you would like us to address. I'd like to hear you address it, yes. Well, the circumstances under which he spoke was that a monk was left home and in that condition doesn't have or didn't have the obligation to his family that lay people had.
[63:39]
So when he's discussing wearing mourning clothes with the issue of filial piety, arises, then he's talking about a different situation other than his biological parents. So two senses in which he might be speaking, it seems to be two senses in which he might be speaking, are one is about speaking about the death of his parents, who or the basis of his karmic existence. And that's fundamental ignorance. Or he might, as I think Tsao-Shung is later, the other sense in which he might be speaking about filial duty or parentage. would be the obligation to those ancestors in the dharma.
[64:41]
You see, you're talking about karmic parentage or dharmic parentage, and not specifically his biological parents, but his ignorance of asking about not wearing mourning clothes. Then he might be saying something about having seen through the problem of ignorance, having killed off his ignorance, at which Zhaoshan might have felt that he had repaid his debt of filial piety to his Dharma ancestors, that filial piety being to pass on the teaching of thusness or the opportunity of awakening. What about to his biological parents? I don't know what you mean. Don't we fulfill our devotion to our biological parents when we understand our fundamental ignorance?
[65:50]
I think we do, but not to them alone. Not to them alone, right. But to them. Right. So when I was talking in that way... So to the Buddha ancestors, to our parents, and to all beings. Yes. I was just talking about the removal from the specific practices, Confucian practices, of special devotion to what's biological. Apparently this is a much broader family. Did I extend myself to you just then? Yes, very much so, and I appreciate it. I expressed my appreciation earlier today for the many years, the thousands of times over the many years that you've extended yourself to me and supported my practice. And I'd like to repeat that in public. I'm deeply grateful. And I feel that continuously.
[66:54]
Thank you. Is there anyone who I haven't extended myself to? I haven't seen. Is there anyone I haven't extended myself to? I haven't extended myself tonight. Is it full extension? I'm at full extension. And I'm having a hard time giving up trying to understand. You mentioned understanding our fundamental ignorance, and I'm wondering if we fully understand our fundamental ignorance, is there cessation of suffering? You wonder? Well, I'm not saying I don't wonder, but that's what I'm betting on this lifetime. That's what I think is our job, is to understand our ignorance.
[67:59]
So then I should keep trying to understand. You should still be devoted to the understanding of ignorance, but you're not going to understand it. The idea that you're not understanding is a dimension of the ignorance. You won't understand it, but understanding can be realized as your life of ignorance. The fundamental affliction of ignorance itself is the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. I kind of understand. Well, yes, swayi ko. Understanding's pretty good.
[69:03]
Pat. Actually, thinking that I've had understanding about different things, the thought that got me in situations where I've closed doors to the real understanding. I also, I wonder if every single person in this room would stand up again. This reminds me of when we were chanting outside of San Quentin, where someone was executing, remember?
[70:29]
She said, just say it that way so they can hear. One time at the beginning of a practice period, some of us went and stood in a circle outside the gates of St. Quentin and chanted the Metta Sutta. I just remember that. It's kind of like this. Can I ask a question? Is there a difference between morning and evening? I think, you know, I would think in this context that they are synonyms. How could you finish? How could you finish? Again, that's what Benny was saying, that it doesn't seem like there's an end.
[71:31]
You can fulfill something without ending it. Since there's no end, and you have this ashes, I think there's a practice of putting ashes on your head, sackcloth and ashes. And I thought there was enough for everything. I'm trying to understand. Did you show us how to do it? Well, I don't know how to do it. Does anybody know how to do it? I just did it. That's what they do on Good Friday. Good morning. No, they're not for Good Friday. Is that what Good Friday is all about? Yeah, I'm from Nashville. Is that how it is? Is that good? Well... OK, so shall we do the thumb and then to the third eye? Yeah. But there's no end to this.
[72:49]
And by the way, next week I won't be here. So if you'd like to come and do a funeral ceremony for me, kind of a warm-up, you can do that. I'll be back on the 15th for the class. So there was mention of cessation of suffering, but if you feel the suffering of the world, can there be complete cessation of suffering? Yes. Yes. In the complete feeling of suffering, cessation. Yes. What was that last part? In the complete feeling? In the complete feeling of suffering. And there's the cessation. In the complete feeling of suffering, there's the cessation of suffering. If we hold ourselves separate from it at all, the suffering does not end.
[73:55]
But it is possible. Pardon? I said I'm wondering if anybody would mind if I sat down now. Is it okay, Pat, if he sits down? Roberta's got a really nice one. Because she's greasy. This isn't so bad either. No.
[74:25]
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