I want to start with something I heard on NPR, and it was a show, and then before the show they said, following program has explicit and graphic descriptions of sexual activity. be advised. And then the show was about safe sex and AIDS education. So they had some classes, you know, live, not live, but taped classes of teaching children, particularly who are at risk, in other words, children who might be on drugs and things like that, about how to have safe sex or how to have no sex And then they tuned in on this class of adult, it sounded like black males, and the teacher of the class was an adult black male.

[01:11]

And he said stuff like, okay, now you guys, now you know what to do, you... You take the condom and you put it on and you squeeze the air out of the end of it because if you don't, it doesn't work very well. And then you roll it all the way down. And then he said, okay, now, and I guess, I don't know what happened, but he said, okay, now, you guys, all you guys now, you know what to do. You do what you have to do now. And then that happened. He said, okay, now I'd like to talk about some situations you might get into and talk to you about what you might do. And he said, now what happens if you, then he started talking and then the over voice of the commentator says, usually people know what to do to take care of themselves. But what they don't know how to do is they don't know how to talk about it.

[02:15]

And so, of course I immediately thought of the koans, koan class. and Buddhist practice in general I think most of you know what to do to take care of yourselves but it's hard to talk about it just like we don't talk about we don't know how to talk about sex in such a way that we take care of ourselves we get involved with somebody and we don't know how to talk about it because we weren't you know we didn't practice that so what they said in the program is what you have to do is get these people to role play so that they so you practice saying things to yourself you know like Like, you know, he says, now what happens if you go to a party and you have a few drinks and you start feeling really good and some voluptuous young creature comes up to you and says, let's go home. And then on your way, and you get in the car and you start going home, but you, and you realize you don't have a condom and so what are you going to do? So one guy says, well, you drive and you say, now excuse me, dear, I got to go to the drugstore now.

[03:23]

Let's go to the drugstore. Yeah. Now, that's not usually part of the, you know, thing you say, right? To go to the drugstore, you have to learn how to say that. Otherwise, you've got a problem. Marjorie. And... And then they talked about the problems, you know, like, you meet this person, you don't know who this person's been with, you don't know this person's history, you don't know who they've been with and who they haven't been with. So you've got to, you know... you've got to do this and you've got to do that. So they talked back and forth and it was very interesting and fun talk. And I think also that in these kinds of study too, we need actually to talk. And we're also not, just like we're not used to talking about sex, especially, we're actually, we are somewhat used to talking about sex, but we're not used to talking about safe sex, particularly. Now, public health teachers talk about safe sex. You can imagine them explaining to the students what to do, but You don't often hear in certain scenes, you don't imagine the person talking about what to do.

[04:29]

People don't know how to talk and maintain your cool and romantic line at the same time while talking about these things. We aren't taught to do that. We know how to talk about other things, but not that. So how do you talk about that which actually takes care of the situation? We're not so good at that, but we need to get better. And the same way about these stories, we need to be able to talk about them. We need to be able to talk and feel comfortable talking and feel comfortable about how to talk about how to take care of yourself while you're talking about the stories or while you're thinking about the stories. So you all know that one way to take care of yourself is that as you go about the day, She is deeply settled in mindfulness of her body, right? That's how she takes care of herself, right?

[05:32]

Don't you all agree? She's deeply mindful, deeply settled in mindfulness of the body as the body, or mindfulness of the body through the body. This is what she's thinking about all day long. This is how she takes care of herself. So when he's breathing, he knows he's breathing. When he exhales, he knows he's exhaling. When he inhales, he knows he's inhaling. This is how he takes care of himself. But does he talk to himself like that? Or is he saying something else to himself? And when he's in pain, he knows he's in pain. When she's in a knot, when her stomach's in a knot, she knows her stomach's in a knot and she says so to herself. Now, if she can know it thoroughly without saying anything, then she doesn't have to say anything.

[06:34]

But most people, it helps at least to say something because your awareness of whatever it is, is a word. So you are saying it to yourself on some level, so it's good to say it again on another level, on a conscious level, on a verbal level, in your head or outside. So we need to, as I was saying to Grace, we need basically to... We need to shout. We need to shout our reality. It doesn't have to be a loud shout, but it should be something you really feel. And when you shout, I say shout because when you shout how you are, especially if you're in pain, it sometimes feels real good to say it. And to say it fully, to say it with your whole body. So anyway, I thought of hearing those guys talk about what they do.

[07:46]

So it seems like it would be good to start by somebody just, you know, some people here role-playing our main story. So would some people just act that out for us right now? I mean, volunteers, please. Stuart, do we have a room tonight? No. Would you investigate? I can. We're getting a broom. Extra copies of case 21? Yes. I just want to put... Okay, so who are you going to be, spirit?

[08:48]

Okay. Do we have any Dawus in the audience here tonight? Okay. Okay. All right, you guys know your part? Too busy. Could you hear her? Yes. You should know there's one who is not busy. So, then there's two moons? Which moon is this? Thank you.

[09:48]

And then later, Shuan Sha, Azat Marjorie, said, this is indeed the second moon. And his Dharma brother, Yun Men, said, the butler watches the maid politely. Okay, now, I'm going to pass these, I'm going to pass out copies of case 22 of the Blue Cliff record. Very efficient. H-O-V-E. Now, before we go any further, I want to check out to see if you know who these people are.

[11:12]

Now, remember Deshan? Remember Deshan? You know what his name is, translated in English, what that is? Virtue Mountain. Remember Virtue Mountain? And who is his disciple? Fa Yan, right? Dharma Eyes. So, remember that story? It was a recent story, quite recent. Case 20. So Deshan says to Faryan, Deshan says to Faryan, or Ditsan, oh sorry, Ditsan says to Faryan about that stuff, where are you going?

[12:24]

And he says, I'm going around on pilgrimage. And he says, what's the point? What's the purpose of that? And he says, I don't know. He says, Not knowing is most intimate. Okay. And then, that story I told you about Dragon Pond, remember Dragon Pond? And his disciple was Deshan. Okay? That was a story about the... He says, it's dark outside, And then he gave him a candle and blew it out. So Dishan's disciple is Dishan, Virtue Mountain's disciple. Virtue Mountain's disciple. Virtue Mountain's the one who became a disciple of Dragon Pond.

[13:26]

Is that person his twin? No. He's the person in case 17, right? No, he's in... Which one is he in? He's in number 12. Where is this, Sean? It's in case 17. Well, here it is. 14. 14. Yeah, number 14, sorry. So Deshan's disciple is Xue Feng. And Xue Feng is the teacher of Changqing, Xuan Xia, and Yunmen. Okay? All right? So De Shan is a teacher of Xue Feng. And Xue Feng is a teacher of Yun Men, Chang Qing, and Shan Sha.

[14:37]

Okay? These three characters of case, the four characters of case 22 of real quick records are, they come from De Shan. And now, Shrensha, Shrensha, okay, in this case 22, he's the teacher of Dragon Pond, who is the teacher of Deshan. I mean, who's the teacher of Fa Yun, okay? So it goes like this. Here's one line, okay? Deshan Shreyafang shrensha, panlun, fayin, or in English, virtue mountain, snowy peak, I don't know what shrensha means, it means mysterious something or other, and then dragon pond and dharma eye.

[15:48]

Okay? No, it's confusing. Yunmen Changqing. Well, Yunmen, Chongqing, and Xuansha are brothers. So above them is Shui Feng. So here's Shui Feng right here, and he has three disciples. One of his disciples is Xuansha. Shren Sha is a teacher of Tan Lung, which means dragon pond. Tan Lung is a teacher of Fa Yin. And Fa Yin... No, no. Sorry. Tan Lung is a teacher of De Shan. Sorry. It's... Di Chan is a teacher of Fa Yin. Okay, so... No, actually, I'm confused because it seems like... In the Dershan line, when Dershan, Shwefan, then... Let me do it again.

[16:55]

Dershan's first, okay? Dershan. Dershan, right? D-E-S-H-A-N. Blackboard, okay. Blackboard. Okay, Dushan. All right? Deshan. Deshan. Deshan, which means virtue mountain. Okay? He's case 14. Now, his disciple is... Oh, wait a minute. But I want to put somebody before him. Sorry. Before him is Tan Lung. So dragon palms up here.

[17:57]

Lung. Dragon Pond, then Deshan. Well, actually, that old lady, remember that old lady? She's up here, too. The lady who sells the rice crackers or the snacks, she's up here, and so is Dragon Pond. Okay? And then comes Deshan. And then after Deshan comes Xue... X, Shui Fung. And Shui Fung has three disciples, which are these three characters in this case 22. But I'll write Shren Sha in the middle. And Shren Sha is the teacher of... Di Cang.

[19:02]

Di Cang is earth womb, you know, like Jizo. And then Di Cang is the teacher of Fa Yan. So Di Cang and Fa Yan are in case 20 and case 12, right? most later. Okay? And then the other two disciples, the other two disciples that are in this story are Yin Mun and Chang Ching, disciples of Xue Feng. Now, the two characters of case 21 are on a different line. So part of what I want to ask you to think about right off is, why did he bring in Yunmen and Xuan Xia?

[20:12]

Why did he bring their comments on this story? Are you following this? Are you following this, Susan? That's a fun question. Why did he bring their comments on this? And what is the reason for bringing them up in the verse? Or why is he bringing up yin-men in the verse? Because it's another example of that kind of action. Because it's another example of that kind of action. Yeah, right. So now we need to look, now we could look at case 22 to try to figure out What's going on? Okay? Uh-oh, the blue cliff record. The blue cliff record. But before we do that, I want to read you a poem by Kabir. Yes. Oh, and by the way, the next case, the next case after this one in the Book of Serenity has Dushan in it again.

[21:40]

Okay. Virtu Mo comes up again in the next case. Okay, so this is a psychological and spiritual poem, which I think is about this case, or this case is about this poem, or something like that. Between the conscious and the unconscious, the mind has put up a swing. All earth creatures, even supernovas, sway between these two trees, and it never runs down Everything is swinging, earth, air, water, and fire, and the secret one slowly growing a body. Kabir saw this for 15 seconds once, and it made him a servant for life.

[22:43]

Okay, so going back to our basic story, we have these two players. or acting out the busy mind, the conscious mind, and the unbusy mind. And they're acting out these two, well, one's acting it out and the other one's calling them that. And then the one who's called on being busy says you should know that there's one who's not busy. and then they set up the swing, okay? The swing is, you should know there's one who's not busy, and then he says, clearly translates it without a question mark, but there really is in the original, there's a question, it says shuma at the beginning, shuma in Chinese, which means, you know, well, how is this so? Or why is this so? There's a question in it. I don't know why I didn't put a question. So he says, you're too busy.

[23:46]

And he says, you should know there's one who's not busy. And he says, well, then there's two moons. There's a conscious and an unconscious. So there's a busy and unbusy. And he says, which one is this? So there's the swing there. They're setting up the swing. Can you see the swing? So when Kabir saw this, he saw everything is swinging this way. All things are swinging this way between these two trees. The entire world swings between these two trees. And he also says it never runs down. It doesn't stop swinging back and forth. I think people sometimes think it's going to swing over to one side and stay there. It doesn't stay on one side or the other. And everything is this swinging. So it's not like everything is the conscious world or everything is the unconscious world.

[24:47]

Everything is the swinging between the two. And that's what I think is psychologically a way to talk about this story, but also the vision or the reality, the fact of this psychological functioning is what we call suchness. And Kabir saw this once. And also, it isn't that he saw this and then everything was over, he was released, but then he could go to work for this company. Cosmic Swing Company. And again, being a servant of this operation means that you go around talking about it all the time. And by talking about it all the time, you take care of yourself and help others. Okay.

[25:52]

Any questions about that? Yeah. What was the line that said for 15 seconds, you saw it begin to take a bottom? No, no. Before that he said, everything is swinging. air fire water and earth and the secret one everything's swinging okay those those four elements are swinging and the secret one is also swinging slowly growing a body the secret one is slowly growing a body through this swinging That's where the body grows, is in the swinging between the busy and the unbusy one. That's where we grow the body. That's where we manifest the body. Kabir saw this for 15 seconds once. He saw this swinging for 15 seconds once.

[26:55]

And then he became a servant for the rest of, for life. Now, case 22. Do you have a question, Herb? Can you repeat what you said about suchness? This swing, which is the fact of these two worlds, the way they relate to each other, that's suchness. The way this is, it's not like, again, it's not like there's somebody out here. It says Kabir saw this, but I don't think you should think Kabir is out here seeing it. It's not that kind of a seeing. Kabir realized this swing and became a servant for life. Yes, Arlene. Would you identify the psychological unconscious as beyond thought?

[28:00]

Would I identify the psychological unconscious as beyond thought? I think thought as included both conscious and unconscious. Is that the logic of this? What we mean by the unbusy in this case, or this unconscious one in this case, I think, is a realm where right now, which is happening right now, where there is no concept for external things. Where there is no other. Even though all the things which we consciously call other, like I call him other, in unconscious realm he's still there, it's just that he's not other. Okay? Okay? That's this unconscious. Well, it's different, but again, it's not different like it's not the same.

[29:08]

As soon as you bring something from that realm into consciousness, it's not that thing anymore. That's one thing about it. In that realm there's no objective knowledge. But there can be some things which you're unconscious of, which actually you're making objects, but you are repressing it. Repressing something that you feel is an object is different from a realm where there aren't any objects. Okay? So there are things which we repress, which actually we're aware of in a knowledgeable way already. It's just that we're in denial about them. Those things, of course, it's good to start to become aware of. This other thing, it's also good to become aware of it, but you never bring it into consciousness in the sense of objective consciousness. But we realize the swinging between the two in this case. Another thing that just popped in my head was this thing about trusting.

[30:13]

And I heard this idea of the original sin as the lack of or the incapability of trusting the others. So when we're in the busy world and we say, you should know, or I recognize, I recognize. I recognize the senator from Arkansas. I recognize the unbusy one. Right now, I recognize the unbusy one. I recognize the unbusy one. How can I talk like that? Under the sponsorship of the unbusy one, I can talk like that. And I can feel good about talking like that. In fact, I can feel like I have to talk like that. I do not know what I'm talking about. but I'm recognizing the other.

[31:17]

I mean not you people who are separate from me. I'm talking about another setup where you're not separate from me. I recognize the other which is where we're not other. That's really other. Do you know what I mean? So I recognize that and I have no proof other than I say so. And also... that at that time I, you know, I feel really alive and I feel like that's what I want, that's the way I want to live. And the swinging is here and we need to realize this swinging, the swinging between this other that I recognize and this realm where I see objects, this realm, which you can call me, but it's also basically my world or your world. It's called the problem of consciousness, or the problem of this, or the problem of self, as opposed to the other, which is not, you know, my, my, it's not this, it's not mine, it's not yours.

[32:28]

But if any of you could really be other, then I would try to trust you. And so... That's a psychological presentation of spiritual opportunity. Okay, now here comes case 22 of the Blue Cliff Records. So you want to act that out? Can we have somebody who can play, what do you call it, Snowy Peak, Snowy Summit, Xue Feng, Volunteer? Well, I'll lead off. I'll do it. Would someone be willing to be the great Yunmen? That's the spirit. How about a Changcheng? Okay, you got Changcheng. How about a Shrensha?

[33:31]

Shrensha, okay. Now, Yin Man and Shren Sha are someplace else, okay? All right? So I'm... Excuse me. Yin Man is there, and... Can you give him the broom? Do you have the broom? Give it to Wes, would you please? So I'm Shrey Fong, and I say to you people... That there is, so Shreya Fong, his name is Snowy Peak, he lives on Snowy Peak, okay? But there's a part of Snowy Peak, there's a part of Snowy Peak that's particularly precipitous, okay? And that's called elephant bone crag.

[34:38]

You know what a crag is? It's like a cliff. It's not a crevice? It's a crevice, but it's like, it's not a crevice like, it's not a crevice this way, it's a crevice like this, right? It's like a sharp cliff. You know? Elephant bone cliff, you could say. Elephant bone crag. So you've got these three geological things to relate to, right? One is this place called Snowy Peak. It's a main... It's the center of the story. And then opposite Snowy Peak is South Mountain. And also at this place is this particularly precipitous area, the sharpest area, called Elephant Bone Crag. Do you have that geology down? So they're playing on this. Is that part of his name? What? Is that part of his name? No, Xue Feng means, it means, the teacher in this case means Snowy Peak. That's his name. He's named after the temple or the mountain, okay?

[35:39]

Is that right? Okay, so the open bone crack is just a place on that mountain. It's a place on that mountain. It's a physical place on the mountain. It's a physical place on the mountain. That's the nice thing about these Zen teachers is that they're named after actual physical places. But, not of course, but of course, that the physical places that they're at are also about them and their teaching. So this guy lives on Snowy Peak and there's a place in that area called South Mountain. an actual place. And also, there's a place which is very precipitous called Elephant Bone Crag. All three of these geological things, when he talks about them and when you live on them, they are about the Dharma. Okay? And that's what they're playing with and actually using these things in this story. So, when you say Shreya Fung, you're talking about the person but you're also talking about the moment.

[36:43]

When you say elephant bone crag, you're talking about the precipitousness of Dharma, of truth. The steepness of it. But you're also talking about a geological place. And when you talk about South Mountain, you're talking about a place that's south of the main temple. But you're also talking about some other place that you're supposed to go. So he says, now, there is on South Mountain a turtle-nosed snake. You all should go take a good look. Okay? That's what he says. And then Chongqing, the elder student, says... In the hall today... No, no, no. No, I'm Yanmei. Oh, sorry, sorry. I volunteered for you. Oh, give him the broom bag. I've been waiting for years. I'm sorry. Please, excuse me. Would you please stand up, Stuart, to do this

[37:46]

Sorry, Elder Chongqing. In the hall today, there certainly are people who are losing their bodies and their lives. Those parts take place later and elsewhere. I think that's the way it happened. I think that's right. The teacher said to his assembly, he said to everybody, he said, you people should go. There's a turtle-nosed snake on South Mountain. You people should all go take a good look. But before we leave the room, Chongqing says, In the hall today, there certainly are people who are losing their bodies and their lives.

[38:51]

and Yunlan throws his staff down and acts as though he were afraid. All right? That's the first thing. And later, I'm a monk, and I go and I say to... You want it? To you. I go say to Shrensha, who's the teacher of... Ditsan. Huh? Ditsan. Who is the teacher of? Fire. Fire, okay. So I go say to this great disciple of Snowy Peak, did you hear about what happened the other day back at your teacher's temple? He told all the monks to go, that there was a turtle-nosed snake on South Mountain, and that they should Go take a good look. And then Elder Chongqing said that there's certainly people in the assembly who are losing their bodies and lives.

[39:54]

And then Yunmen took his staff and threw it down and then acted as though you were afraid. It takes Elder Baru Lane to be like this. Nevertheless, I am not this way. How are you, teacher? Why make use of South Mountain? So that's the two-part story. Elder Ling, is it Ling? Elder Ling is Chongqing, Chongqing Yuan Ling. Ling is the last part of his name. So she's saying, this teacher is saying, only he can act like that. And for him it's okay. For this monk, it's not like that. How is it for this monk? Why use South Mountain? That's what he would have said if he were there. Okay? So, this story is being alluded to in the poem.

[41:02]

And these two monks, Xuan Sha and Yan Men, are being brought up as commentators on this story. This one says, right after the story, this indeed is Or this exactly is the second moon. And Yin-Nan says, the butler watches the maid politely. So that's a lot of stuff to cope with. But, you know, there it is. There's the stuff. Now, before we go any further, maybe it would be good to even take some more on, but I'm not sure. You want to look at the poem now, or you want to try to make sense of the story before you go on to the poem? But I'm still having trouble with the butler and the maid. I don't know. Even you explained it last time. When the butler sees the maid, he takes caution, or he's careful, right?

[42:03]

That's another way of translating it, right? Did you hear that? Yeah, I heard you say that. Okay, so now you want to know about that? Yeah. Okay, so... Who's the butler? And who's the maid? Well, do you have any idea at all? He brought this comment in and put it right after the story. So what do you think they're talking about, ladies and gentlemen? Especially you, gentlemen. There's not that many options. There's only two options that you can come up with, I bet. So the butler is going to be either the busy one or the maid. The butler's going to be the busy one, and the maid's going to be the unbusy one, or the maid's going to be the busy one, and the butler's going to be the unbusy one, or...

[43:07]

the butler's going to be yin dao wu, and the maid's going to be yin yan, or reverse, right? It's going to be either one of those, probably those characters are going to be the butler and the maid, or are going to be the busy and unbusy one. Wouldn't you think? Let's just be naive, shall we, or simple-minded. Okay, now let's say the butler's the busy one, shall we? Okay, now, the butler's the busy one and the maid's the unbusy one. What does the butler do when the butler sees... What does the busy one do when the busy one sees the unbusy one? What does the busy one do when the busy one sees the unbusy one? What does he do? What? He watches politely. The busy one watches politely? Yeah. Well, if this guess is right, we're saying that the busy one watches the unbusy one politely. Does that make any sense to you? No?

[44:09]

Yeah. What would you think? How would that be? Calmness in order to watch? Calmness in order to watch? Space in order to watch. Okay. Chris? If I was a computer, if I was a busy computer and I saw that I'm busy, whatever it is that they're talking about, I would probably be impressed enough to watch what... Okay, now before we go any further, can the busy one see the unbusy one? Is that possible? No? No, it's not. You can't see the unbusy one. You can't see it. It's like, see something. You can't know it because as soon as you see the unbusy one, what you're doing is you're just being the busy one as usual. Imagining that you're seeing the unbusy one. You cannot see it. The unbusy one is not an object of consciousness.

[45:11]

It is the fact that a big part of our life is that we're not into that stuff. And you can't see that. We can talk about it, but that's just more busyness. So, It's better, and we've got some possibilities, and we can go deeper, and maybe you'll figure out what it is pretty soon. But you have some possibilities, right? This can flip either way. You'll see which one you like best. What about the fact that it's a butler and a maid, which is generally a male and a female, and a butler is usually a higher status than the maid? What about that? Does that play a part in all that? You could do that. You could do that. And in Chinese culture, it's probably true that butlers are all probably male and female.

[46:12]

On the booklet record, it was translated as the maidservant and manservant, so that would apply to all of them. Yeah. Maidservant and manservant, yeah. And oftentimes they talk about, somebody says something like, well, what's happening? And somebody says, check it out with the chamberlain. The chamberlain is the counterpart to the chambermaid. But in that particular, I just thought of the case where he's told, check it out with the chamberlain. There's somebody taking care of the inner rooms. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I noticed that both the maid and the butler, both figures of servants, and thought perhaps then that neither of them would be the unbusy or absolute, that they would both be figures of the relative world.

[47:23]

Well, I proposed to you that the unbusy is not the absolute. The absolute is the swing. Is the swing, yeah. So it's not like this is not relative and absolute. The absolute is the complete story is the swinging between the two. So the butler and the maid are both going to be servants of the total reality of this this dynamic existence. Well, I was looking at it from the perspective of there being a relative world and the absolute world and the relationship of the relative and absolute world being the third thing, being the swing. But Not being the absolute. And I would propose to you again that the relative and the absolute don't swing back and forth.

[48:28]

That the absolute is the fact of the non-duality of these two realms. That's the complete story. Thank you. I'll just pose that to you and think about that. The assumption of the swing in itself would kind of apply to the second Lincoln National teacher, Louis Zopkin, who was talking about view of the South. The draft board, the giant draft board, the end of it. Would you say it again? I heard the quote. What was the question? Wouldn't the swing be from that school?

[49:33]

There's a swing there. What you just read is a description, is an expression of the swing. Yes. Right. Isn't the sort of school thing that first the Buddha nature is completely unborn and So that's called the ultimate position, that it's unborn and undying. Yes. That's not necessarily Soto school. I mean, that's... That's just ultimate reality, that this is all unborn and undying. That's ultimate reality. Okay. But that's in some kind of dance with relative... or provisional reality, where things are born. And those two realms, this ultimate realm where things are unborn and are dying, and the realm where things are born and die, the non-duality between those two.

[50:38]

I think he's saying, though, that the dying and being born, it's not real. It's not ultimately real, that's correct. But there is the reality that this stuff, it is true that this stuff appears. These unreal things do appear. Okay? It's true. And the non-duality between these, the truth that these things, that these unreal things appear and that they ultimately don't exist, the non-duality of those two is what we try to realize in the stories about that. But I'd like to look at case 22 a little bit more so you can get a hold of it and play with it better. I'm just going to tell you some stuff. This isn't true or anything. This is just to give you some kind of friction to work with. So what is the turtle-nosed snake?

[51:41]

I told you before, turtle-nosed snakes eat people. All right? Huh? They eat Buddhas and ancestors, Buddhas and pioneers, they eat them. Or they eat regular people, and after regular people are eaten there, they become Buddhas and ancestors. And then they themselves turn into dragon-nosed snakes. Okay? You know what it is that eats people and then makes them into Buddhas and ancestors? You're supposed to go check that out, and that's over on South Mountain, he says. But then the monk stands up and says, I think that actually there's people in this room. Now, he says people in this room, but maybe he means actually, teacher, this student of yours is such a person. I have been eaten by... You have given this instruction that I should go check out this turtle-nose snake, which is on South Mountain.

[52:46]

But the turtle-nose snake, of course it's not on South Mountain. Of course, it's right here. It's particularly right at your feet. Do you know what the term knows, Nick? It's the swing. The swing is what eats you up. Or the broom? Or the broom. The broom eats you up. So there again, you see, when you're sweeping, do you know how to take care of yourself? Do you know how to take care of yourself in your daily life such that your broom or your feet consume you? Do you realize that you're working with this swing?

[53:48]

Which if you could see, if you could realize this swing, you'd be all set to go to work. It's really close, right? It's saying, yo. But I'm suddenly struck by the fact that the movement of the swing is periodic. Yes. But I feel like the other swing we're not talking about is not, you know, is not that, but it's every which way, unpredictably, sort of chaotic. Yeah, I think that's right. But... it's sort of chaotic. But when we see it, we always see it from a point of view. Okay, now I'd like to bring in another dimension here, okay? Yun-Men. What does Yun-Men do? He takes his staff, his staff, and he throws it down. Now, the commentator in the Blue Cliff Record likes this a lot, is throwing this thing down.

[54:53]

And here's what he says. I didn't tell you to read this, but I think you can understand it if I read it to you. Elephant bone cliff. It is so high no one goes there. Those who get there must be master snake handlers. I'm going to change this slightly and say Chongqing And Shrensha can't do anything. How many lose their bodies and their lives? Yun Men knows. Again, he searches the weeds. North, south, east, west, no place to search. Suddenly, he thrusts out his staff. and throws it down in front of Xue Feng.

[56:00]

It opens wide its mouth. The gaping mouth is like a lightning flash. Raise your eyebrows and you won't see. Right now, it's hidden right here. Those who come one by one observe expedient methods. Master Shui Tu, or Shui Du, the one who wrote this poem, then shouted loudly and said, look, it's right at your feet. So they liked this young man throwing down this staff. And one, you could say, when he threw down the staff, he was not looking at the staff anymore. When he threw the staff down, that was him. The way he responded to the teacher's instruction was by making a stout into the snake.

[57:01]

At that time, he was consumed. However, in a flash later, he looks at it and he's frightened. So another way to see what's happening here is you can take whatever you've got and you can make it the snake. Again, I say you can, but it's not you make it the snake, but you make it the snake. It is the snake. It is the snake which consumes you. You make your life consume you. And a moment later, if you look at it, you'll be frightened by it. When you see, when you realize the emptiness of your life, your life really comes alive and everything is your life. But if you look at it, you'll become terribly afraid of it. If you make it into a thing, you'll be afraid.

[58:04]

So, if that happens, make the fear your life. Take the fear and throw it on the ground and make it the snake. Or take the fear and instead of calling it a snake, make it into your baby. Hold it and love it and be kind to it and smile at it and rock it. Anyway, the point is, let it be your life. So this is the way Master Sui Du, the commentator in the Blue Cliff Record, the way he sees Yunmen. He thinks Yunmen really was hot stuff in the story, even more impressive than his elder brother, who said to the teacher, I did your instruction. I have lost my body and mind. I have lost my body and life. I did it, teacher. And the elder brother, Chongqing, everybody's happy with him. He did just fine. So when Sui Du says that Chang Ching and Shren Sha can't do anything, he doesn't mean that.

[59:14]

They're doing just fine for them. And so Shren Sha says of Chang Ching, he can do that. That's not my way. I would say, why use Sao Ma? Don't use something else, he says. But Yin Mun's the star, apparently, by doing this wonderful enactment of bringing this secret body, of growing the secret body slowly. Not so slowly, it seems, but... Yeah? I have a question about... Pardon? You could have said that. Mm-hmm. I think a little different, because a turtleneck snake is not something other than yourself. But you could even say, why use any expedient means?

[60:20]

Why even open your mouth? But it seems like, although you may be right, if you're right, then there's a second removal to put it someplace else. So if you want to take one step back more, fine. But... In the original story, you've got... Yes. I see. Well, fine. No problem. The important thing is lose your life. Yes. What? Yes. He was waving a maw. Okay, and now I'd like to complete the circle, and then we can have some questions. Go back to the verse now, okay? And then after this, I think you've got probably enough to, you know,

[61:34]

probably maybe you have enough to go to work on this if you want to so the verse is borrowing temporarily yin yan comprehends the gateway borrowing temporarily borrowing borrowing something temporarily he comprehends the gateway what's he borrowing temporarily to comprehend the gateway? What are you borrowing to comprehend the gateway? Your words. What? The teaching. The teaching? Concepts? Situation. The situation? An object. Hmm? Life. An object. An object. Friendship. Friendship? Breath. Breath. The kindness of all beings. Okay. Well, actually, I would say that the kindness of all beings is the gateway The gateway is to that.

[62:38]

But you're always using the kindness of all beings, but temporarily you use this or that, which they give you. Okay? This story, yeah. For you it's the story. For yin-yang, it's a broom. Okay? Okay? Another translation of this would be instead of borrowing temporarily something, use something, okay? Use something to comprehend the gateway. You've got to use something to go through the gate. Use something. Borrow it for a minute. So he uses something and he understands the gateway. Another translation is using what's at hand. Same thing. He finishes up the yard. It's another little tilt on it. Using what's at hand, borrowing something, you finish up the yard.

[63:43]

You exhaust this situation. You use something to exhaust this situation. Realizing the function as is appropriate, Dawu then rests. Another translation would be, he could use it and know when to stop. He could use it and know when to stop. Realizing the function as is appropriate, Dawu then rests. Then it says, the snake handler of elephant bone crag, the doings of childhood seem shameful when you're old. What's shameful about this? Nothing.

[64:49]

Huh? Nothing. Nothing. Okay. Why'd they say so? And why'd they bring this, why'd they bring this story up? Why'd they bring this story into this story? Have a nice simple story. Why'd they bring that story in? I don't know, but from the start, this... This Case 22 has made it seem like a bunch of monks' hot dog, a bunch of Zen masters' hot dog to me. It's like they're all showing off. I just have felt that since the beginning, and it hasn't gone away. So maybe that's why they're looking back on it. It's sort of childish they're showing off. So maybe, before I answer Colin West, so maybe what they're talking about is that if we were more mature, we wouldn't be, you know, maybe the great teacher, Xue Feng, wouldn't be saying things like, you guys should go check out this elephant bone crag.

[65:58]

I mean, you guys should go check out this turtleneck snake. Now... He wouldn't have to. He wouldn't have to tell you, you know, you people, there's something right nearby. It's right over in there. Or it's over in the swimming pool. Over in the swimming pool, there is a turtle-nosed snake over in the swimming pool. You people should go check it out. If you go over there and check it out, you people are going to be finished off. Go check it out. So, In a more mature state, we wouldn't have to talk like this. What would we do if we were more mature and not so silly and showing off? What would we do? Sleep. Sleep. Make lunch. Chant in the morning service. Bow to Buddha. Change diapers. Shake hands with our friends. That's what we'd do, right? Question is, do you know how to talk about it?

[67:00]

It's not easy. You've got to talk about it, otherwise you don't know how to do it. And when you talk about it, you've got to talk about somebody else. You've got to make it into theater. So when you're a kid, when you're a teenager, like we're kind of like kids or adolescents, whatever we are, Zen pioneers, we have to learn how to talk about this. So we have to have these hot dogs to show us these stories, which when they were hot-dogging it around, everybody remembered them. They told these stories over and over for hundreds and thousands of years. But in a way, they're hot-dogging, like you say. You're right. If they were more mature, there would be no story. They would just say, well, they're up there They were there. We heard that they were there. Well, what did they do? Well, they got up in the morning and went to bed at night. And they were nice to each other. What did they say? They said the same stuff we say. Oh. Well, how are we going to make a drama out of that?

[68:06]

Well, just live your life and make a drama out of your life. A drama of what? a drama of, and then you bring in the hot dog stuff. There was a swing, you know, and stuff. So this is our dilemma of our practice is that We really shouldn't need to bring these stories in. We should just be living our life and know that everything we do here together, first of all, we should know that everything we do here all day long, we're doing together. Even if we can't see anybody, we're doing things together. Everything we do here enacts our intimate connection, the fact that we have one life. Everything we do is like that, but here I'm telling you that. Because if I tell you that and I think that way myself, that's called taking care of me and taking care of you. So we have these stories. And you can only say this thing over so many times before you get bored, so then they have all these different interesting ways of saying it. Each one, in fact, saying it the same way, but in a different way, to show that all the different ways...

[69:12]

And there are a few stories in here which are not, which are standing out because they're so ordinary. Like case number 14. Remember Deshawn? This guy? He was like super dramatic when he was young. He used to beat people up all the time. 30 blows. If they coughed, they got 30 blows. If they didn't cough, they got 30 blows. If they talked, they got 30 blows. If they didn't talk, they got 30 blows. He was a very intense guy. In the story in case 14, the student basically goes up to him and says, boo, and the teacher just sort of says, oh, that's a good boy. Yeah, he just keeps dropping. He doesn't come up with anything, you know. That's immature. Mature Zen teachers are totally useless. And they... You know, yeah, a lame tortoise, right. Or they call them an ancient owl, or owl.

[70:17]

What do you call it? A-W-L? A dull owl. You know, can't even poke a hole anymore. That's what happens to them when they're really old so nobody's interested and nobody tells their stories. Except sometimes they tell stories of them like when they're totally useless just in contrast to the earlier stories so you know that that will happen so you won't get discouraged if your teacher becomes completely undramatic and uninteresting. Or if your friends become undramatic and uninteresting. And the drama you're doing with them is like completely, you can barely stay awake for it. But this is the drama, this is the drama of our, you know, of our life together. So, this thing that Yen-Men did, I mean, I can imagine what that was, and you can imagine what that was, what he did when he threw that stick, you know.

[71:19]

I mean, he was messed, he got... You know, ladies and gentlemen, you know what he did? He turned into a shaman. He made that stick turn into a snake. He did that, just like the shamans do it. And it was nothing other than him. That's what made it alive. And then he flinched to complete the story and got frightened by his own work. But this is kind of, you know, according to Soto Zen, this is actually not such good taste. These people, by the way, are not in the Soto Zen lineage. However, the Soto Zen teacher who collected them, he specifically collected this story about Yun-Yen sweeping the ground, his brother going so far. Here he is sweeping the ground, perfect Soto Zen practice, you know, sweeping the ground, and his brother comes up and says, you're too busy.

[72:21]

making it a drama, big drama. So then they bring in this more dramatic story. And the other thing that's going on here is that these people disagree. All the monks in the story have a different role, a different point of view. Notice the first two guys, they're really playing a different role. The second story, you have the teacher and three disciples, they're all doing a different thing. And that's part of it too, is that we all have different ways of playing it, different ways of talking about it. And in some ways, the most outstanding, the most spectacular one, is Yunmen.

[73:28]

And he's the one that's sort of embarrassing. Later, looking back on him, although he was fabulous, it's kind of embarrassing. In the Blue Cliff record, Suidu thinks this guy is really great, you know, to make this thing happen. To jazz up our Zen practice a little bit there. But then later the Soto Zen guy comes by and says, Yin Man was great, but this is an adolescent thing. This is, what do you call it, juvenalia? Too coarse. It's rather coarse. But it demonstrates this swing. You see the swing? The swing between this enactment and then recoiling from it. So that's a lot of material in this story for you. And I think it would be wonderful if you people would talk about it in August.

[74:30]

The broom swings. And the broom swings. Can I say about the swing? Thinking about what Mio said about it being chaotic, like it's not a back and forth. When he said that, I thought about it more, to use my favorite word, as simultaneous. You know, that the back and the forth is simultaneous. I don't see it as chaotic or... I don't know. That's how the snake, that's how the moon is the snake, and the moon is the snake, and... You know, what just popped in my head was, when you said that, was maybe what makes things appear chaotic is that things seem to be going back and forth at the same time. Maybe that's chaos. How it looks.

[75:32]

Just figure out that chaos isn't really chaos. Isn't this what we're all talking about anyway? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Wes? I'm not really sure where to begin. I kind of got lost in this case tonight. When we went over the blueprint record, I found myself... thinking that Yuen Min was heroic not because he was literally imitating being the snake handler, but because he was expressing his fear of going to South Mountain. So as Xue Feng was suggesting that all these people go there and die and lose themselves, and Chongqing suggests that there are people in the hall today that are losing their bodies and lives, he was saying that to Xue Feng as a way of saying, you're not being skillful here, and you're suggesting that we

[77:03]

we do something that we're not ready to do. We have our own fears, whatever, that are preventing us from doing that. And so he's basically shifting it to We have to deal with the fear that's happening here. And there's a reason our fears are keeping us from going there. It's not like we don't know that there's this great challenge there. But we have our own fears that we're trying to work on. And that's why I'm getting confused here. When you said everybody's showing off, this is one of the few cons where I've been able to think, gosh, I don't see that happening. I see somebody here who's who's showing how much they don't understand or how afraid they are. And that's when Yan Min throws his staff down and makes a gesture of fright, I see him saying, you know, look, I know that snake's there, but I'm afraid of it.

[78:08]

I don't want to go near that. You know, I'm here because I know where to cut the spear. Your interpretation is fine. However, how many people, when they're afraid... Make it into a dance. If you're afraid, okay. But can you express it in a way that people will talk about for centuries? If you're afraid, make it history. Because it is anyway. That's what I think young men do. Yeah, but the point is we're all afraid, but do we shout it? That's the thing. If he was afraid, and that's what he was doing here, then I say that he was liberated on the spot by expressing it. And he didn't just say he was afraid, he expressed his fear such that he made a stick turn into a snake.

[79:10]

The world's transformed when you completely acknowledge what's happening to you. So your interpretation is fine. The point is, he made it so. He made his life so. I don't know, that's what really gets... And you can tell, everybody can tell a different story. But I say, no matter what you say is going on with him, he made it come alive. He said, no matter what's happening with me, I'm allowed for this to be what's happening. In other words, I accept and I enact Buddha's compassion. I'm actually allowed to be like this. And I'm going to talk about it and I'm going to make gestures about it so you people can see it. Not only do I feel that way, like I'm allowed to be who I am. But I'm going to talk about it to myself and to you so you can hear that I believe that. And I'm going to make a body gesture like that.

[80:18]

I'm going to live that way. I'm going to make Buddha's compassion alive in my life. If I'm afraid, I'll do it. If I'm not afraid, I'll do it. And the way I read it was not the way you read it. I read at first he wasn't afraid. And then he enacted fear. that he was liberated once and he was liberated twice. That's the way I read it. And I also read that Chongqing was not afraid, but he also, in his way, an elder way, said what he said. And the other brother, Trenshaw, he enacted it his way by saying, I'm not like my elder brother. That's okay for him, but I'm this way. This is what I have to say. And in fact, that's what it is all day long. Everybody, moment by moment, you people say what you have to say, you do what you have to do, you do it, you know it, and you're busy.

[81:26]

But there's somebody who's not busy. There's somebody who just completely lets you be what's happening. That's all that Unbusy One does. And no matter how active you get, the fact of the activity you're involved with is the activity you're involved with, and there is no noise or movement. But we have to talk about that. Because if we don't talk about it, We don't realize it. Yes? Yes. But when you make it alive, if you blink an eyelash, you become afraid of it. Yes.

[82:34]

Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. Barbara. When I was reading it, the case 22, I was suspecting that they were all purely established practitioners and that perhaps they were demonstrating different expedient devices or techniques. And to the Soto school, we would favor a young man. That's just my personal attitude, but, you know, as... True to the Soto Zen school that you represent. Oh, that's good for me to know that's not true, then. It's good for you to what? It's good for me to know that that's not totally true. What's not totally true? That's just my personal take, that young man is stupid, so... You mean somebody else's take, too? What?

[83:37]

But anyway, you know, there's the Soto school. You know, the more I study Soto school, I find out that there's a lot of different Soto schools. What is it? There's as many Soto schools as there are people in the Soto school. However, they're all connected in one big wad. Let's see. I'd like to hear a few more people that haven't get a chance. Let's see if you guys can pop off now. Mahin? Would you talk about why it's so important to talk about it? Because the other teacher said, it's okay, my brother, he's not my way. He has his way. Yes. So why is that important to talk about it? Why is it important to talk about that my brother's way is not my way? Yes, I understand that. Why is it important to talk about it? Yeah, I... what really happens between us that's important, the real thing that happens between us is in silence.

[85:09]

It's going on right now, in silence, what's really important. We don't have to talk about that. We don't have to talk about that. It's going on. We don't have to talk about it for it to go on. But, We're talking, all the time, anyway. So what are we going to say? I'm not so much saying to you that it's important to talk. I'm saying you are talking. This story is saying you are talking. And you're never going to stop talking. I don't have to say it's important. That's just the way it is. We're all talking right now. Everybody in this room is talking in their heads.

[86:14]

In words. And everybody here knows how to take care of themselves pretty much. But do we know how to talk about it? To take the talking we're doing and make it talking that is caring for ourselves and caring for others. So what's important is not to talk, but is to talk in such a way that you take care of yourself. Yeah, but if we are doing it anyway, we know how to take care of ourselves, for example. Why is that important? We are doing it. Because if we don't talk about it that way, we'll talk about it in a way that doesn't take care of ourselves. We'll tell another story. Instead of telling these stories, we'll tell stories about how we're separated and how other people are wrong and how we're wrong. We'll tell other stories which will make us have difficulty in trusting what's happening because we'll be telling other stories.

[87:17]

And even though what's really true is going on, because we tell certain kinds of stories, we have trouble realizing what's going on. And then that's going on, but we feel a lot of suffering because of the stories we're telling. But I'm not saying to change your stories. I'm not recommending that either. I'm just saying the main story you should tell is the one you're telling. So I'm not talking about telling different stories. I'm talking about in this class we're telling these stories. This is the stories of this class. I'm not talking about telling different stories. Here's the stories you're exposed to this time. But after this class is over you may not tell these stories anymore, which is fine. You're going to tell some other stories. And I'm saying, tell those stories that you're telling.

[88:23]

And if you tell the stories that you're telling, the stories which you tell will start becoming stories like these stories. Stories of liberation. Your stories will change by the fact that the stories you're telling, you will now completely tell. Is that this kind of talking is different than talking about just me, me, me? When you talk, is that different? It is. We all are talking about me, me, me most of the time, or all the time. Because the realm of talk, the realm of words, is the realm of me, me, me. The realm of talk, the realm of words is the realm of me and you. I'm here, you're there. I know things. You know things. That's the realm of me. That's the realm of words. We live in that world. Okay?

[89:29]

And we talk in that world and we're busy in that world.

[89:32]

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