Again, earlier I invited us all to... I invited us into the contemplation of consciousness and to wonder, what is the motivation in this consciousness? And so I'm asking about that. And that's apropos of this particular course of study because the overall characterization or the overall pattern or shape of a moment of consciousness is the definition of the action, the karma of that moment or of this moment. And welcome Susan.

[01:07]

And each, every moment of consciousness has a shape. Sometimes the shape appears to be wholesome or is wholesome. Sometimes that the shape appears to be unwholesome or is unwholesome. When I say appears, there may be some uncertainty about whether the pattern of consciousness in a given moment is wholesome. In other words, is it beneficial? Wholesome means beneficial, means supporting or being a condition for wholesome states of mind. And the consciousness can also be indeterminate. In other words, there's a pattern, but there's no clear direction to it.

[02:18]

So we have these three types of karmic category, or you could also say moral category. And states of consciousness can be wholesome and still have defilement in them. And of course, states of consciousness can be unwholesome and have defilements or delusions in them. I have never been able to imagine a state of consciousness where the karmic quality is unwholesome and there's no defilements. But most, if not almost all, wholesome states of karma have defilement. but they're still beneficial.

[03:24]

They can still be beneficial. So I suggest during the quiet time that we look, [...] contemplate the shape of the mind. And then, so for example, one state of mind could be that there's actually this thought, a thought, which is sometimes called the thought of enlightenment. In Sanskrit, it's called bodhicitta. And it's a thought. It's actually a pattern in consciousness where there is a sincere wish to realize unsurpassed awakening, to realize Buddhahood, for the welfare of all beings there can be that that thought and wishing the thought which is a wish to attain the most beneficial state of being in order to most beneficially protect and care for and ultimately awaken living beings to protect them and free them from suffering and awaken them

[04:53]

That can be a thought in our consciousness. And that thought is called bodhicitta. Now the word bodhicitta also is used to refer to the mind of unsurpassed awakening. So it's used both in the sort of ultimate sense of the mind of a Buddha, and it's used in the relative sense of the mind of people like us who could have that aspiration arising in our mind. Now, related aspirations, related patterns of consciousness could be wishing to protect and liberate all beings, which also is a wonderful motivation. but that wish could be there without the accompanying wish to be realized Buddhahood in order to facilitate the welfare of all beings.

[06:06]

So again, we could have a consciousness, and some people do, I've met people who they do have in their consciousness, there is a really sincere wish to be most beneficial to the most people. And that's the wonderful pattern of consciousness. That's a wonderful moment of karma. But they do not have this other aspect of it, which is to wish to be a Buddha, that they just can't allow themselves to have that wish. It just seems too much. But they do feel like, okay, I am, wishing for the welfare of all beings, I can do that. And I can do that very sincerely, but I can't quite say, and I wish to realize Buddhahood in order to facilitate that, in order to realize that. So some of the Bodhisattva vows could be in our mind, but we have four vows, which we chant at the end of these sessions.

[07:11]

The fourth one is to become the Buddha way, to become Buddha. The first one is to save all beings. So you could have the first three, but not the fourth. It's possible. And some people might have, they wish for all beings to be saved. They wish for all affliction to be cut through, but they don't wish to enter all Dharma doors. They don't have the fourth, third bodhisattva vow. And they, and they, and they might wish to be Buddha, But as we look at these four vows, we will realize that really, they go together, but the last one really involves the first three. And the first one, to save all beings, does require Buddhahood. Anyway, these are possible states of mind

[08:18]

which we might be blessed with. And we might be able to ascertain for the moment that there is such a magnificent aspiration in consciousness. And of course, all kinds of other aspirations could be discovered that aren't like that, which is sad. Now, if by chance, we have this karmic consciousness which has this magnificent thought of enlightenment living in it, then I would suggest that it follows that we would study that mind and take care of that mind. In other words, take care of consciousness where that mind lives. And even though that mind's there, there still can be delusions arising with it.

[09:26]

So it doesn't mean that this aspiration's there and there's no delusions. That aspiration can live in a diluted, ordinary, diluted karmic consciousness. I'll say that, and I'll say it again. this magnificent, this wonderful thought of enlightenment can live in a diluted state of consciousness. And I would say in most cases, in the early million years of its arising, it is arrived in a diluted state of consciousness. But if it keeps being there, moment after moment, it will finally become the actual ultimate Buddha mind. But it won't become it won't realize the ultimate bodhicitta, the ultimate body mind, if we don't take care of our ordinary karmic consciousness.

[10:32]

So if we wish, if we have such an aspiration, and we wish to take care of it, and help it become completely mature, then it seems necessary that we study where it lives. And it lives in the ordinary swamp of karmic consciousness. It lives in the midst of affliction. And by compassionately observing karmic consciousness, this bodhicitta will be protected and it will grow and grow and become more and more full, mature, and vast. And finally, it will become Buddhahood. Well, as I said before, I'll say again, every living being has karmic consciousness.

[11:40]

In other words, every living being has a motivational pattern of their mind. But not all living beings are studying that motivational pattern. What part of my aspiration to live for the welfare of others is I aspire to encourage beings to study their consciousness. And moment by moment be aware that there is a consciousness and it has a pattern. And what is the pattern? So once again, if we do not practice this bodhicitta, by caring for it, remembering it, and looking at it.

[12:47]

And if it's not there, remembering and looking for what is there. Even if it disappeared, if we practice studying our karmic consciousness, we will again be blessed with the arising of this wonderful bodhicitta. One more time. Even if the consciousness does not have this magnificent, unsurpassable aspiration, if we contemplate compassionately what is there, we will receive again the arising of this bodhicitta. And one way to explain this is When we study our karmic consciousness, we are doing Buddha's practice.

[13:49]

And when we do Buddha's practice, we are in an intimate relationship with Buddha. And in that relationship, the thought of enlightenment will arise, does arise. And again, after it arises, if we do not continue to study the mind, to attend to it compassionately and observe it compassionately, we can get distracted from the bodhicitta. It can be hindered. At the meeting on Saturday, one of our members, Samir, told us that a long time ago, he heard about this teaching of sitting without trying to get anything. Of sitting without any gaining idea.

[14:55]

And that really appealed to him. And I think probably it still does. The idea of wholeheartedly sitting or wholeheartedly walking or wholeheartedly listening or wholeheartedly looking to do what we're doing wholeheartedly without trying to get anything. This is the practice of bodhicitta. Such a way of practicing protects the bodhicitta. If there's bodhicitta and we wholeheartedly practice bodhicitta without trying to gain anything, That is the practice. And as I said on Saturday, even though we are deeply attracted to living our life wholeheartedly without trying to get anything out of it, still, because of our karmic consciousness, we are at risk

[16:06]

of slipping back into trying to get something out of life. If we're not observing our karmic consciousness, it may actually be trying to get something. Even though we're devoted to a practice of living for the welfare of all beings without trying to get anything, we're devoted to it, but part of us is sneaking around the edge trying to get something, maybe. Not for sure, but probably it's quite common. So in order to protect this wonderful practice of being wholehearted without trying to get anything, we need to also be vigilant to the sneaky karmic patterns coming back in to try to get something and be like, for example, to be the best person your neighborhood at practicing without trying to get anything.

[17:07]

That could happen. However, if you're studying, and you and you see that you're doing you're doing the practice, which will protect your Buddha mind from being just, you know, hurt by that gaining idea. So I wanted to tell you a couple of stories now. One is about the great ancestor, Ehe Dogen. When he was about, yeah, when he was about 48, he left his mountain monastery, which is in, you know, West Central,

[18:10]

not so much west, but central Japan on the west side of Japan by the Japan Sea. That's where Eheiji was. He left there and he went to the other side of the main island to the headquarters of the military government, a city called Kamakura. That's where the shogun was was living at that time. I'm not sure what Dogen had in his mind to go on this trip. Maybe he wanted to help the Shogun learn the Buddha way and hoping that that would benefit many people if the Shogun became a good student of studying karmic consciousness. So anyway, he was there for about six months.

[19:12]

And I've heard that he was kind of disappointed with the way that people in the capital received his teaching. And he went back to Eheji. And when he got back, he was very happy to be back with the people who were trying to practice compassionately studying karmic consciousness with no gaining idea. And so he said in a formal talk when he got, shortly after he got back to Eheji, he said, let me see what he said. He said, I just expound the Dharma to guide people. Those who practice wholesome karma rise up.

[20:22]

Those who practice unwholesome karma fall down. You practice cause and harvest the effect. It's just like picking up jade and throwing out gravel. Thus, I try to clarify, speak, identify with, and practice this Dharma of karmic cause and effect. So this is towards the end of his life. He's coming back from the capital. He's written many brilliant philosophical treatises and he's coming back in the last part of his life to the basic teaching of the practice of the dharma of karmic cause and effect.

[21:29]

Not to compare but now some other people who are towards the end of their life are doing that too. They are They are trying to clarify, speak, and identify with the practice of contemplating karmic cause and effect. Contemplating karma and contemplating its cause and effect. And then he said, do you all understand? So, do you all understand? Well, if you don't, we're just gonna keep studying, okay? And then he says, after a pause, he said, please bear with me. One could say that tonight.

[22:35]

Please bear with me. My tongue speaks of cause and effect without trying to gain anything. My tongue speaks of cause and effect without trying to get anything. That's the way it was about 770 years ago in Japan. And that's the way it is now. And he says, plowing the way, how much is mistaken? Today, take pity on me for being a water buffalo. So Dogen is, he's holding up faith in studying karmic cause and effect.

[23:39]

And, around this time of his life, he wrote another fascicle towards the end of his life called Deep Faith in Cause and Effect. And earlier in his life, he wrote a fascicle called in Japanese, Daishugyo, which means great practice. And in that essay called great practice. He brings up a story, a famous, a very famous Zen story about great practice. And also in the essay, which is called Deep Faith and Cause and Effect, he also brings up the story, the Zen story about

[24:45]

great practice. I'm not going to tell the whole story. I'm just going to tell the core. And the core of the story is that there was a Zen master, a Zen teacher called Baizhang, Baizhang Waihai. And he gave, he gave talks to his assembly, probably gave talks on a variety of things. And one of the things he gave talks about was studying karmic cause and effect. And in the story, it says that in the back of the room, when he gave his talks, there was an old man, not one of the resident monks, an old man who came and sat in the back of the hall and listened to the teaching quite a few times. And one day after all the other monks left, the old man came up to Baizhang and said, I'm not actually a human being.

[25:53]

I'm a fox spirit. I used to live on this same mountain where we are now. And in ancient times, I was the head monk of the monastery on this mountain. And a monk asked me, does a person of great practice, does a Dai Hyugyo person fall into karmic cause and effect or not? And I said, not. And as a result of saying that, I have been reborn as a fox spirit 500 times. So in this setting, he looked like a human, but actually he had a spirit of a fox.

[27:08]

And a fox spirit refers sometimes to a living being who does not believe that karma has consequence. Anyway, he said, when asked, does a person of great practice fall into karmic cause and effect or not? He said, not. And then he asked the great teacher, Bhajan, would you please give me a turning word. In this case, would you turn the words of my history, of my story, of my karma? And Bhajan said, okay, ask me the question that the monk asked you.

[28:10]

So the fox spirit says to him, does a person of great practice fall into karmic cause and effect or not? And Baizhang said, does not ignore it. Or it can be read as a verb, does not ignore it, or it can be read as an adjective, is not ignorant of it. a person of great practice is not ignorant of cause and effect, or does not ignore it. In other words, a person of great practice observes it, tries to remember it, realize has a deep faith in it, but not just a deep faith in cause and effect, but a deep faith in studying it and being aware of it.

[29:18]

So in order to protect the mind of Buddha, the mind of Buddha is both the wish to protect and liberate all beings, and wish to attain Buddhahood in order to do that, it is also the realization of it. It's the wish and the realization. And in order for there to be realization, there has to be observing the karmic consciousness, which can derail us, distract us from this work. because karmic consciousness is disorienting, is confused and confusing. And when he, after 500 lifetimes as a fox, when Bajang turned it to does not ignore it,

[30:29]

And that was what it became. It became not ignoring. It became the great practice. After last week's meeting, someone told graciously told me that I can't remember if she said, that the class was confusing, or if she said, I was confused, I don't remember which. So in this class, you could say the class is confusing, or you could say, I'm confused, or you could just say, confusion, confusion, confusion, confusion.

[31:33]

Confusion. In other words, confusion. In other words, confusion. In other words, karmic consciousness. Karmic consciousness. I found the class to be karmic consciousness. In other words, I found the class to be confusing. If you're in this class and you notice some confusion, you're doing the work. If Buddha was in a mind, a karmic consciousness, where there's confusion, Buddha would be aware of the confusion. Buddha might not say, I'm confused. Buddha just might say, confusion. And part of the confusion is, is it just confusion? Or is it my confusion? Is it confusion? Am I the one who's confused or is it just I'm there in the realm of confusion?

[32:38]

I actually proposed to you last time and I do it again tonight, that in karmic consciousness, there's an I. There's an I there. And if there's confusion, the I is living with the confusion. But it's not the I that's confused and it's not the confusion that's I. They live together. Karmic consciousness, you got an I, you got a me, you got a self, you got confusion. And part of the confusion is what's the relationship between confusion and the self? And one of the relationships between confusion and self is called self-confusion. And when there's a self, there's self-confusion. So, If in this class, there's an awareness of some confusion, I would say, great, the practice is alive.

[33:38]

If anybody in here is aware of any confusion, the practice of studying karmic consciousness is alive. And in that lively study of karmic consciousness, we become more and more ready for awakening. And awakening to what? In awakening to the Buddha's central teaching of dependent co-arising. Because karmic consciousness is dependently co-arising. Confusion is dependently co-arising. But if we don't study the confusion, we're not there to observe and discover its dependent co-arising. And one more thing before I turn it over to the conversation is the teaching again by Dogen, wonderful teaching. Great realization, great realization of confusion is Buddhism.

[34:55]

Now, some people translate it as those who are greatly awakened, or those who have great realization in confusion, those who have great realization in delusion, are Buddhas. That's okay. It's true. But it's a little dualistic. I prefer great realization of confusion great realization of delusion is buddhas so we've got the delusion we've got the confusion right does anybody not have any of that we've got the turbulence of karmic consciousness right now there's an opportunity for a great realization of it by studying it. However, it's not like studying complete perfect enlightenment, it's studying delusion, which is not that easy or fun.

[36:10]

It could be fun actually, because you could say, hey, I'm deluded. Hey, I'm confused and I know it, so I'm doing great. And that's confused too. Anyway, these topics which I have raised, about the great practice of not ignoring cause and effect and deep faith in cause and effect and realization of the delusions of karmic consciousness, these themes may come up again and again forever. As long as we have sentient beings who have karmic consciousness, I hope that these themes will come up again and again and help beings guide beings to realize the Dharma of cause and effect, which is the Dharma. Okay. Does the Great Assembly wish to have some confusing conversations now?

[37:17]

Do you wanna share any confusion with us? Tracy. Hi, good to be here. Good to be with everybody. My area of confusion that I'd like to focus on is earlier tonight, you said something. I don't even remember what you're talking about, but you said something about, you know, and that'd be sad. And then I'm thinking, well, are we assuming sad is bad? Are we, do we, isn't that being attached to an outcome that we not be sad? And so really what I boil down my question is, I'd like to hear more on the relationship between gaining mind and intention.

[38:25]

So they seem to argue with me, those two concepts in my mind. Well, In karmic consciousness, there could be the intention to gain something. Like to not be sad. Yeah, like to not be sad. Yeah. And that would be, you know, I don't know what to say, a questionable agenda. That agenda will undermine and hinder the pure practice of wholeheartedly living without trying to gain something. So this is like to practice Zen or to practice sitting or to practice study with the intention or the wish to practice Zen or Buddha way to practice it free of any attempt to gain anything. That's the pure practice.

[39:29]

And there could be a coexisting intention to actually get something out of that pure practice, which of course will defile that pure practice. But if we notice that intention, and if you excuse the expression, expiate it, or in other words, confess and repent it, if we do that in the presence of the Buddhas, that process of confessing the gaining idea will melt away the root trying to get something out of the practice. So really, there's only one intention worth having, which is to not have gaining mind and to practice the vows without trying to get anything. All other intentions are defiled. Is that right? Well, you could have the intention to have breakfast wholeheartedly without trying to get anything from having breakfast.

[40:46]

So then that wish or that intention to have breakfast would be undefiled. Okay. But the key thing is that you want to live without trying to get something. And that wish didn't come from yourself. It came from Buddha. And it came from Buddha because you said you wanted to become Buddha. So Buddha said, Oh, you do? Well, here's a practice for you, then you want to be Buddha, then live your life without trying to gain anything in And in order to realize Buddha to help people and not see that as a gaining process, see it as a liberating from trying to gain something process. Thank you. You're welcome. Oh, yellow hands.

[41:51]

Sarah. Hi Rem. Hey Sarah. So I was noticing, actually since the topic first came up about non-gaining ideas, there may be something in me about being the age that I am or having been raised as a Christian for the first part of my life, but I noticed that I find people the most trustworthy who admit what it is that they want to gain so that then we can proceed with the service they're giving or whatever. I feel uncomfortable with a presentation of something being done for non-gaining. I think it's not for non-gaining. It's being done to benefit beings. That's the reason to do it in some cases.

[43:02]

The Bodhisattva, all their actions, they wish their actions to be a benefit. They just don't see it as, they just aspire to not make that into another gaining idea. That is not a gaining idea? No. And that's hard for people to understand. How could you help people without thinking that it's a gain? Well, that's what's hard for karmic consciousness to understand. So Bodhisattvas want the best for everybody without thinking of that as just getting something out of it. And you said you trust people who confess that they are trying to gain something. You said that. Well, I think that because I... Excuse me, I wasn't done. You said that, right? Yes, yes. And so the Bodhisattva, when she notices she's trying to get something out of being a Bodhisattva, She confesses it, and that does make her more trustworthy. By confessing that we're trying to get something out of being a bodhisattva, or even trying to get something out of being a Buddha, by confessing it, that melts away the attempt to try to get something out of becoming Buddha.

[44:18]

But Buddha has told us, like in the Diamond Sutra, the Buddha says to Subuddhi, when I became a Buddha, did I get anything? And so Bodhi says, no, Lord, you didn't get anything. That's why it is unto past and complete enlightenment. And Bodhi said, was there anything by which I attained Buddhahood? No, there wasn't. So Buddha has realized there's nothing to gain. And on the path to realizing that, we notice quite a few, almost innumerable examples of where we're trying to gain something. we now have the instruction. When we notice we're trying to gain something, show it to Sarah Norris and she'll trust you. And you say, thanks for showing that to me. I really trust you because it's normal to try to gain something. And people who pretend like they're not, maybe they're hiding something. So if I notice I'm trying to gain something, all right, then I confess it and say, I'm sorry.

[45:22]

But Enlightening people, becoming a Buddha is not a gain. That's the teaching of the Buddha. When I become Buddha, I don't gain anything. I don't get anything. You don't get anything when you become yourself. And in order to become yourself, you have to get past innumerable examples of trying to get something out of being yourself. As long as I'm trying to get something out of being myself, I'm not yet myself. It probably feels pretty good to be yourself. It might, but the Buddha says not necessarily. So which do you prefer to feel good or to be Buddha? A lot of people say, well, actually, I guess I would rather feel good. I guess, you know, I guess. Well, I just I'm thinking about striving for virtue.

[46:27]

And that what I find really interesting right now is if I set up any virtue. I'm more interested in all the ways. I don't need that virtue. More than all the ways I do right now. It feels more fruitful somehow to see the ways in which all the intricate ways in which not lying, not killing or whatever it might be, are hard to attain, and I'm slippery. So I think other people might be too. Yes, seeing how they're hard to attain comes with the territory of studying your karmic consciousness. So yeah, sounds like you're studying, sounds like you're doing the study. of your karmic consciousness and noticing how hard it is to practice certain precepts.

[47:34]

I do go through a lot of confusion sometimes as I listen. And that's because maybe, not maybe, I think in my mind, my relationship with Buddha may be different than my relationship with a karmic consciousness. So therefore, when you even use Buddha would say this, Buddha would say that, my mind immediately kind of says, okay, now we are creating this idea of Buddha and we are speaking our own ideas through Buddha. And that makes me even more confused that I have enough idea. In my mind, I let Buddha alone with no ideas, but now I'm bringing Buddha in and using Buddha as an idea.

[49:05]

And that's very confusing to me. Yeah. I'm glad you can see that. Study that confusion is the path to benefiting all beings. So here my question, Rose, as you spoke and I spoke, then what rose in my mind is, is it this gaining mind that even brings Buddha and tries to get something under the name of Buddha and speaks through Buddha? Isn't that the gaining mind? Maybe, sounds reasonable. Or you could say confused mind. A confused mind thinks, a diluted mind thinks there's something to get in life. So you can call it gaining mind, diluted mind, confused mind, yes.

[50:07]

Okay, so it's the confused, diluted mind. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Then that confused mind brings More names into and then yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Hello, great assembly. I am curious if Buddha mind benefits from psychotherapy. I don't know, Buddha mind needs any benefit. Buddha mind is is not benefited, it's benefiting.

[51:13]

And in understanding, in drawing, in gaining, I don't know what the word is, in finding awareness, is psychotherapy just a tool? A Buddha mind goes to psychotherapy to benefit psychotherapy. So we've got psychotherapy, okay? Buddha mind goes there and benefits the therapy. It makes the therapy work most fully and most beneficially. And the distinction is the motivation, right? Well, not necessarily the, the, the people in the, if there's two people, the people in the psychotherapeutic relationship, they could both have the bodhisattva vow.

[52:26]

They could have the same motivation as the Buddha. But they might still be kind of confused and try to and try to get something like the therapist might want to get to be a might want to be a famous therapist, want to make might want to make a lot of money from this patient. or, you know, and the patient might wanna, you know, get something from the relationship. But they both might actually wanna attain Buddhahood and benefit the whole world. They might have that motivation, but they maybe have various defiled motivations also. That's why the psychotherapy might help them to notice the defilements surrounding their wonderful kind of Buddha motivation. Buddha comes in there and helps them find a way to work on these issues without trying to get anything from it. So the Buddha, whenever there's psychotherapy, Buddha's there trying to help the people in psychotherapy really make psychotherapy enlightening.

[53:34]

And sometimes both people in psychotherapy could have the Bodhisattva vow. Sometimes neither one of them have it. but still Buddha would be there to teach them how to do psychotherapy in such a way that they're free of trying to get something out of life. I think that at one time, you had distinguished the knowledge or the the exploration via psychotherapy in comparison with the Buddha Buddha mind exploration. And what you're saying, or what I understand is the intention to benefit all beings without an agenda?

[54:51]

There could be an intention to benefit all beings. And that intention could be that without an agenda, but there also could be the intention to benefit all beings without an agenda. And that could be in psychotherapy. However, there still might be some wish to get something. So yeah, so the Buddha is trying to help people in psychotherapy wake up to what they're actually doing. And not to get them to stop doing psychotherapy, but to wake up to that relationship they have. That relationship, the relationship isn't trying to gain anything. The two people, they both might be trying to gain something, but actually the relationship has no foothold to try to gain anything from it. Relationships can't gain anything, but karmic consciousnesses can think about gaining something.

[55:58]

So Buddha comes there to teach the people in the relationship that there's nothing to gain. And even if they have a really the same aspiration as the Buddha, they still might be trying to gain something. So the Buddha is trying to help them realize great aspiration, you both have great aspiration. That's really wonderful. And it would be nice if you could like have that aspiration and put it to work without trying to get anything out of it. self awareness, gaining something? No, it's not. But people think it is. People think, oh, I yesterday I wasn't self aware. And today I'm aware. So I gained self awareness. That's a diluted thought. Can you say more about that? I can, but I think I've said enough. Thank you.

[57:00]

And it's on you can listen to it again, over and over. You're muted. Sorry, I would like to share some confusion. Thank you. You sent out a document after, or Gay sent out for you a document after the last class, which I found really interesting. And I would hope maybe you might touch on, and I hope it's not, I hope it's, I think it's relevant to this discussion. And it talked about, it was a conversation between the Buddha and the disciple and talked about how

[58:01]

It's a mistake to have the attitude that everything that happens to me is karma. And I had the examples of... No, it's everything. It says everything that happens, every experience you have is due to your past actions. Okay. So I'm interpreting that as synonymous with saying everything that happens to me is due to my past karma. Is that, is that what you're saying? Okay. And Bruce, no, I don't agree with that. Right. So he, he, from my understanding of what he says is that you can be, you know, sick or there can be, you can experience positive or negative effects through weather, um, or you can experience positive, you could, um, experience positive negative effects through injury. that aren't karma. He didn't say they weren't karma. Okay.

[59:03]

He just said, you can see that. You can see that. You can see that. I don't understand what you mean. The doctor can see something's off with your phlegm, and that's why you have this condition. They can see that. Okay. But he didn't say, but that's not karma. He just said, that doesn't seem to be a past action. But isn't past action and karma synonymous? No. The past action is past karma, but present karma is not past karma. So anyway, I think I probably made a mistake of passing that out too early. Sutra probably should be discussed when we get into the cause and effect part of the karma. Okay. I'll be with my confusion until then.

[60:05]

And we can bring it up when we talk about cause and effect. But he didn't say that the phlegm is not karma. He just said that the doctor can see when the phlegm's imbalanced, you have certain diseases. And you can see that. But you can't see how that is karma. How that condition is from karma. You can't see that. And if you say you can, you're going too far. You can't see that yet. But still, there's more details in there. Because cause and effect does not mean This cause causes the effect. This cause with certain conditions causes that effect. This cause with other conditions doesn't cause that effect. That's part we'll get into. Okay. This karma has consequence, the Buddha said. But he didn't say this karma has that consequence.

[61:10]

Because this karma with these connections has this consequence, and the same karma with other conditions has a different consequence. Okay. And it could be myriad conditions. Exactly. Okay. Our karma has... So we could not possibly know. Yeah, so we'll get into that. I'll give you some more searches later. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you're so happy. Gayatri, I learned what your name meant. Really? Yeah. Did you learn about the mantra? Yeah, exactly. It's a mantra to the sun, right? Yes. Yeah. Your aunt gave you that name, she told me. I think she was involved in some way to get there.

[62:13]

She and my grandfather. So Gayatri means it's a mantra for the sun. Yeah, it's a deity. I think literally what it means is she who protects those who sing of her. Wonderful. But it's also the name of the mantra. Anyway, so I am really happy to be here again, Reb, and to see you and to be in this assembly. So thank you. And so I had a confused question as well. So when you were speaking, you mentioned, like in this karmic consciousness, there's the self. And then there's all these other things like, you know, maybe a thought or an idea that you have, or you know, certain conditions of the body and the confusion and all of that together is one particular, I guess you would say, like a configuration of karmic consciousness, right?

[63:24]

If you could say that. It's a configuration of karmic consciousness and the configuration is the karma. Okay, so that whole thing... The self isn't the karma, the feeling isn't the karma, The delusions aren't the karma. The confusion isn't the karma. But the whole pattern, the whole shebang of the moment, that's the karma. And karmic consciousness always has karma. And it always has a self. It always has a self, yeah. Right. So, so that much. Yeah, go ahead. Right. So, so I get that much. But the confusion is as follows. What I was wondering is, isn't the self really it like, is that is it not that it's not a separate thing, but rather something that is defined by everything else in that configuration.

[64:26]

That's right. That's what it is. It's not a separate thing. What it is, is defined by everything else in the consciousness, and also much more, much more. We can see, it can actually be observed, how the self is modified by what is consciously present with it. But it also depends on unconscious processes in the body and everybody else in the universe. Like the phlegm and the bile and everything else. And everybody else's phlegm and bile. Yes. All that makes the self. But you can't see that. But you can see how the self changes according to what is present in consciousness with it. Right. That's a glimpse of a much bigger causal process. so and that is observed through this process of investigating karmic consciousness right like what we're doing here but in that situation then so and maybe i'm jumping the gun so like about the the cause and effect piece of it if there is some effect of a particular set of causes that that happens whatever effect is happening

[65:55]

it's happening to a different self than the one that caused it. Because that self of that moment... Let me say, when you play the piano, when the finger touches the key, that karmic act, if that's sort of the main act of the moment, simultaneously with that key, your nervous system, right? Your nervous system changes. At that moment, And your nervous system is part of what gives rise to your consciousness. So when we do things in the present karma, our present karma changes our body and unconscious processes simultaneously. And then that consequence gives rise to another consciousness in which there'll be another self. And probably with the idea with that other self that it's the same one as the past one, even though it's not. This self is not the one that used to be here.

[67:00]

But with this self might come the idea that this self is the same one that we used to have. That this reb is the same reb that we used to have. But it's not. This is not the same reb we used to have. We've never had this reb before. But in this consciousness, there might be the idea that this is the same one. Or not. And that's a delusion. And that's a delusion. It's not the same one. But it's a common delusion that I'm the same self that I was yesterday, not to mention before that. And other people also think I'm the same one. And therefore, you know, they don't like me because I used to be a jerk. I'm not that jerk anymore. I'm a new jerk. They don't even know about this new jerk who's even worse than the old one. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, a lot of people are noticing that about me.

[68:01]

Every me is a worst me. Okay, Athena and Tyler. Hello, Rob. Hello. I was, I was wondering, as we're talking about karmic consciousness, I was wondering if an enlightened consciousness is also a karmic consciousness, or if it's somehow free of karma? Well, it's free of it. And the way it's free of it, is that it studies it. So like he said, does the person does the great practice person?

[69:08]

Does they not fall into karmic cause and effect? And the and the monk said they it doesn't fall into karmic and that's wrong answer. Because it not falling into it sounds like it's not involved. But the enlightened consciousness is right in the middle of karmic consciousness, but instead of falling into it or not falling into it, it's the freedom, which is not karmic consciousness, is the awareness of karmic consciousness as for what it is, a delusion. So the freedom is the same as understanding the deluded consciousness. But it's not another deluded consciousness. It's like when you get a joke, that's not another, at the moment you get a joke, that's not a karma. It's a moment of insight. It's a joke. And it illuminates the darkness of the consciousness, which thought that this was a serious problem here.

[70:17]

So yeah, the wisdom, The Buddha that understands karmic consciousness is not karmic consciousness. However, it's not the least bit separate because it's right there understanding it and paying attention to it and being kind to it. But that kindness and that attention and that insight is not a karmic pattern. It's an illumination of karmic pattern. It's light. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Rob. Hey, Steven. So, enjoyment and use.

[71:23]

Enjoyment. enjoyment and use. I missed the second part. Enjoyment and something? Use. U-S-E. U-S-E. Enjoyment and use, uh-huh. So the getting something is use and the non-getting, the not getting something is enjoyment. And just in very abstract terms. So that, so the, I mean, in Christianity you have the I guess you have the banquet, the heavenly banquet. And that's enjoyment. And that's the, that's the great assembly, um, aware of itself as a great assembly. So everybody at the great assembly is enjoying each other and not, and not using each other. And so then, um, uh,

[72:28]

So that would be Zazen because again and again in Zazen I have, I experienced this feeling of intimacy and it's enjoyable usually. But sometimes I experienced this feeling of intimacy and I feel like I'm connected to a destructive behavior. I don't enjoy that in a subjective emotional sense, but it's a kind of intimacy and I don't think I'm using the being involved in the destructive behavior. I'm being abstract so people don't think I'm crazy. The risk that somebody, I'm not embarrassed, but I'm just being discreet. Okay. Well, intimacy with destructive behavior is not destructive.

[73:38]

Intimacy with destructive behavior is the path to protect beings. And part of, in my case, part of intimacy with destructive behavior is for me to notice some destructive behavior or potentially destructive behavior in my consciousness. Noticing that and being kind to it leads to intimacy with it and protects beings from harm. And if I'm not intimate with destructive behaviors, then beings are not protected from harm in that instance. And because in fact, even the most the being involved in the most destructive behavior is in fact, however much he or she thinks he's alone is in fact, not alone, but in non dual connection with Buddha.

[74:44]

And if they people who think they're alone, are in what we call immediate danger of destructive behavior. But Again, if we can be intimate with this idea that we're alone, then we and other beings will be protected from the harmful potential of that delusion that we're alone. So Buddha wants to teach us how to be intimate with thoughts like I'm alone, so that that thought doesn't hurt anybody. And if that thought's not cared for, it could hurt people could hurt me and you. Thank you, Stephen. I read, um, I have

[75:52]

I think a beginner's question, but why is the reason you don't want to get something out of something? Is it because it separates us from others? Wanting to not get something is basically the same thing as trying to get something. It's the same thing. So I don't, I'm not trying not to get something. But if I am trying to get something, I hope I notice it, or I hope you help me notice it. So I wish to give up trying to get something, but I'm also not telling myself not to be that way, not to be somebody who's trying to get something. When I'm trying to get something, I, rather than tell that person not to be that way, I wanna be intimate with that person.

[76:53]

that gaining idea, Reb, that Reb was trying to gain something, I'm not trying to get rid of him. I want to be intimate with him. Other people may want to get rid of him, because he's a dangerous character if he's caught by trying to gain something. But I want to not try to get rid of him, but be intimate with him so that he won't hurt anybody, so his gaining idea won't hurt people. Thank you. You're welcome. Good evening, Rob. Good evening. At the very beginning of this talk, or close to the beginning, you were speaking about the wish to protect beings and bodhicitta.

[78:02]

And what I what I feel like I'm noticing in my own mind is that the wish protect comes pretty easily. But there's something it's and it's in the neighborhood. It's in the right neighborhood. But there's something about it that's quite different from the wish to help all beings realize freedom. And, and I, and it also the wish to protect creates sometimes some some trouble, and I don't mean good trouble in the John Lewis sense of good trouble, it sometimes creates trouble. So I'm wondering how I might bring the wish to protect more into alignment, or more into harmony with the wish to help beings realize freedom. So Buddhas have the wish to protect beings, and Buddhas have the wish to enlighten beings, and Buddhas have the wish that people will be Buddhas.

[79:12]

They have those wishes. And you have some of those wishes too, right? All of them. Yeah. So you and Buddha have the same wishes. But Buddha is actually those things you're wishing for. So Buddha wishes to protect beings. Buddha is the protection of beings. That's what Buddha is. Buddha is the enlightenment beings. Buddha is Buddha and Buddha wishes those things would be realized just like you. If there's a slightest bit difference between wishing that beings aren't harmed If there's a slight of wish between wishing to protect beings and the protection of beings, then we have a sentient being. Whether there's a slight difference between wishing to protect beings and protecting beings.

[80:17]

In Buddha's case, it's the same thing. So, and also in Buddha's case, since Buddha is the protection of beings, Buddha is the enlightenment of beings. But Buddha has the wish too. just in Buddha there's no discrepancy between the wish and the realization. And for us there's a little bit of a difference. So there's a way to be with beings that is protection of beings, and we want that. Right? Yes. But we're having trouble seeing that that's actually the way we are now. That's how it works. When we see a difference, when we see a discrepancy, then we can confess that. Oh, I see a discrepancy. I admit it. And also then around the discrepancy, gaining idea can come up.

[81:20]

want to get I want to get the protection of beings. Okay. All right. That's, that's, that's a little defilement around this wonderful wish. What I'm seeing as you as you speak, what I'm seeing in my mind is when I think about protecting beings, I think I should do something. And when I think about freeing beings, I kind of go, that's so big, there's nothing to do. And so I don't like, you know, I don't engage in the same way. And yeah, so maybe you're Maybe you're more prone to gaining idea for protection than for liberation. Yeah, that seems some other people have the other problem. What do we do with it? Well, yeah, what do you what do you do? When you notice that you're trying to gain the protection of beings? What do you do? Right now, I'm confessing it. Yeah, you confess it. And then maybe you notice you're kind of embarrassed about it. True.

[82:26]

Yeah. So that's, that's what you do with it. You confess it and be embarrassed in front of the Buddha's or in this case, become the Buddha's and the whole and the Great Assembly. And maybe it'll happen again someday. Feeling kind of like an idiot. Thank you. It's it's It's the bewitching hour, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for bewitching me. Conflictions are inexhaustible. We vow to cut through. Dharma gates are boundless.

[83:28]

We vow to enter them. Buddha way is unsurpassable. We vow to become it. Thanks again. Trails to you until we meet again. Thank you.

[83:50]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ