OK, so last time, towards the end, there were, I think, about five people who raised their hands and didn't get called on. And my memory is it was Gayatri. I wrote it down. Linda. Linda Hess, and also Linda Wodowski. And who else? Barbara. Barbara Joan. And one more. Yuki. And Yuki. Okay. So those people, we thought we'd start with them if they can remember their question from last time. If you want to. Those five people.

[01:03]

Linda Budowski is not here. So those four people, maybe we can start with you. There's Gayatri. Hello, Rev. Hello. So the past few weeks, each time I had a different question, I think. But this time I wrote down the most recent one that was in my mind. So I thought I would ask that question. Okay. So here's what I was wondering about.

[02:06]

So in karmic consciousness, we experience a self and a world, right? We experience something. Can I suggest changing the language a little bit? Sure. Karmic consciousness, by the way, is the place where language is operating. So you just said we experience a self. Another way to say it is in karmic consciousness, a self appears. Uh-huh. Self is part of the experience of karmic consciousness. But it's not me in addition to the self that appears. Although we talk that way. Like we say, I see myself. Right. Whereas actually, in karmic consciousness, not always, but there always is a sense of self. And sometimes, often, there is an awareness, a self-awareness. So self-awareness occurs in karmic consciousness. And then we often say, I'm aware of myself.

[03:08]

But that's redundant. Okay. So, a self appears in karmic consciousness. And a world appears in karmic consciousness. And a world appears, yes. What we mean by world is what appears in karmic consciousness. And this is echoing to Jeff. the worlds that appear in karmic consciousness are created by karma. Mm-hmm. So a series of cause and effect that has culminated in this moment of a self that is now experiencing Reb nodding his head and me moving my hands and the screen and all of this room and everything. And the world. And the world out there. And the world. Right. So the world in... for all practical purposes, is really different instances of a world in each moment that is different, and the self of that moment is different, and what I'm experiencing is different, and it keeps changing.

[04:23]

So it's not one world, but many, many, many, many, many infinite worlds that are arising. Okay, so far so good. So now... But at one point you spoke of what you termed as a container world, right, of insentient objects that are out there. So my question is, in Buddhism, is there some agent or governing principle or something that is... giving coherence to that container world in terms of how things are. You know, like a rock is a particular quality, and this atom has this many protons. I mean, those are all ideas, I know, and they all exist in my karmic consciousness at this moment. These notions of protons and rocks and objects, it's all, I get that.

[05:27]

But is there something that's independent of consciousness that is giving coherence and persistence to a physical world in Buddhism. I'll just say there's nothing independent of consciousness. Nothing. And consciousness is not independent of anything else. And the same applies to the body. The body is not independent, has no independent existence of everything else. And the whole universe has no independent existence of the body. And the unconscious, the embodied, the embodied cognitive processes, which are unconscious, which are not conscious.

[06:33]

There's nothing independent of them, of that either. And it's not independent. There's no independent things. However, there is this process of dependent co-arising. But the process of dependent co-arising, of things arising in dependence on causes and conditions, that process is not independent of the process. The process is not independent of all the causes and conditions. And... Sometimes causes and conditions come together, and they come together in a way that is coherent. And they come together as a coherence, usually in karmic consciousness. And so the coherence also is a dependent co-arison. Right.

[07:35]

Right. But then also simultaneous with the coherence, like the coherence of your face in this consciousness. Your face is coherent in this consciousness. And you, that the idea of you is a coherence in this consciousness. But what is inseparable from the coherence of your face and your glasses is an incoherence. which is all the causes and conditions which come together to create this unique coherence. So the causal process is mostly, almost totally incoherent, but it comes together in these little coherences which are extremely wonderful and precious. And it's just totally mysterious how this unlimited incoherence

[08:35]

And each moment gives rise to a coherent moment of karmic consciousness. Yeah. So the example that I was thinking of was, remember you were telling us last time how you were walking in this procession, and there was a man with a stick in front of you, and you kind of fell asleep momentarily for a few seconds, and your consciousness kind of, you know... And then you opened your eyes. And yes, that person was, you know, at the other end of the room. But it was the same person and the same, well, a different instance of that same person and a different instance of that stick. But a different instance of the room. But it was, there was coherence in that. Like you didn't suddenly appear into another room and another person and another. There was a coherence. Yeah. And then there wasn't coherence for some period of time. Right. And then there was coherence. Right.

[09:36]

And then to make sense of those two coherences, I made up another coherence, which is that he jumped to the end of the room. However, I could see that all of that was coherent. It was probably not true. More likely is I went unconscious for a little while or had a dream, went into dreaming consciousness. Right. But there was no coherence of him in my... He was no longer a coherence in my consciousness. And then there was the coherence of somebody who was related to him. A new version of him. And then there was the causes and conditions to make this theory that he jumped from one room to the other. And that was another coherence. I didn't make him appear in front of me. I didn't make him disappear. I didn't make him reappear. However, I arose with him, and I disappeared with him, and then I arose with him, and there's a great process called Depentechorizing that made me, and made him, and made me, and made him.

[10:50]

And makes my view of him, and makes my story about how he got to the other end of the room. But I did not consciously make that story up. It just came to me, you could say, intuitively. My unconscious cognitive process came up with this really nice idea to make sense of this person suddenly, it seems to me, suddenly being 60 feet away. Right. Coherences are... the process, our creations, we have the whole process of dependent core rising. And there's no process of giving rise to the coherences outside the coherences. It's all one process. There's no dualism in Buddhism. No dualism, no. And also there's no getting rid of dualism. So this dualistic thing of this person here and that person there, a non-dual process creates these

[11:53]

apparent dualities. The process is not separate from these appearances. The process is telling us what they really are. What they really are is the process. They're not independent things. They are a process, a vast process. And also the process is not independent of the independent things, which it births. I'll have to wonder that one. And before we go on, I hope Jeff's listening to this. So in karmic consciousness, in a way, there's two worlds. One world is in karmic consciousness. One world is the container world, which is... the lights and sounds and smells and tastes and tangibles that make a room or that make a vast prairie or that make a view of the sky, that's still a dipentechorizing in consciousness.

[13:03]

And it's an enclosure to this consciousness. The consciousness is an enclosure in that world which I'm seeing, the world of being in the room, the world of being in a boat, the world of being You know, on the planet Earth, all these different worlds are still enclosures in my consciousness. And there's another enclosure, which is the enclosure of being. So I'm enclosed in being this person. So being this person is one world. And then this person is in another world, which is the physical world, which I share with you. And you have your own world where you're like a human. probably, and I'm a human. And that's our, this is an example of the, called sattva loka, the world of being. And then the other one's called bajama loka, the container world. And they're, both of those worlds are in karmic consciousness.

[14:06]

And then outside of karmic consciousness, those worlds are much more, are incoherent. Those worlds aren't just what we see in karmic consciousness, they're supported by lots of stuff. The vision we have of the stars in our mind is supported by the stars. And the vision people used to have in like the 12th century Europe of a flat world with the earth at the center, they didn't make that up. That came to them through dependent co-arising of all the people in the world at that time. And then it changed by dependent co-arising. It's still an enclosed version of a world which is not enclosed by any coherence. I like that. I like that idea of the incoherence. that we can never, it's incomprehensible and vast, and then there's the coherence.

[15:13]

Yeah, and the Dharma world embraces the relationship between the unlimited, unbounded, incoherent causal process and the coherent entities that arise through the process. The Dharma includes both of those processes. And we live in the Dharma. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Rev. Thank you. Did you remember your question? I wrote it down. I take my little notes and sometimes I draw pictures of you. I should show you one sometime. And. I want to say before I go to my question that you mentioned something about a dog last week or, or on Saturday, a dog in the world or dogging consciousness and we have a puppy.

[16:23]

So if we seem to bounce away every once in a while, it's puppy consciousness, which is respond to the bark. It's our bell, our new bell. Um, So you said body arises with the unconscious and then ceases. And that's where I put my question mark. But then you said. And you may have paused long enough for me to put a question mark, because then you kind of answered the question. And I just want to make sure that I understood this. You said, however, they are. They are the condition for the arising of another body-mind. So the causes and conditions of the moment of arising cause the conditions of the next moment. They don't cause the conditions.

[17:24]

They are one of the conditions. Of the next moment. This body and mind, and again, this is a picture of the relative conventional world. Where I appear and then I change. But when I change, the person I was the moment before is a condition for this person. Right. But the person I was, Buddhism makes the point that this person does not carry over to the next moment. I'm a condition for this person. But I don't carry over to this person. Right. So then what is a moment? Because if my body-mind, for example, I'm doing myriad things in my body-mind, my unconscious mind, secreting and pumping and flowing. A moment is something which is bounded by the arising of something and the ceasing of something.

[18:32]

Moments, again, are... conventional realities. And they're bounded by a beginning and an end or an arising and ceasing. And sometimes they even say a little short bit of maintenance so that you have time enough to notice the arising and ceasing. That's a moment. But then moments are simultaneous also. Because It seems to me, and I wonder how to frame this, that then moments are actually, many moments are happening in what we call a moment. So I may, the dog barks and I go and open the door. And I also realize that the tea is boiling. So a moment isn't an isolated event. It's myriad events. Nothing's isolated. So Duggan says, the present fully includes past and future and is independent of them or is cut off from them.

[19:47]

So the person I am right now fully includes lots of previous Rebs, but not just previous Rebs, but previous worlds that Reb lived in too. You know, all the worlds I used to live in are included in this moment. And all the worlds I will live in are included in this moment. However, those moments do not carry over to this moment. This moment is unique. It'll never be another one like it. And nothing from the past is carried over into it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be unique. It would be carrying stuff. But Buddha's teaching, no, nothing gets carried over. However, everything conditions this. And that's challenging. It's challenging, yeah. And it's how we distinguish between people who think that things get carried over. In other words, that they have an independent existence. So yes, the present and this present which arises includes what has ceased.

[20:59]

And And when this arises, it arises with, when this body arises, it must arise with the mind. And when this mind arises, it must arise with a body. It's not the body be first and then the mind, or the mind first and then the body. And then some people think the body goes away and the mind lasts. That's in one of the schools that the Buddha said, no, I don't agree with that. And yet the karmic consciousness is, is not bound in the same way with the unconscious and body-mind. No, it's bound too. So when the body comes up, the unconscious comes up always. Right, it's okay. And often, many, many times, from our perspective, almost always, the conscious mind comes up too. But when it comes up, the other two come up. Just that sometimes the conscious mind does not come up.

[22:04]

That can happen. And that's part of what I'm going to talk about later tonight. What about when the unconscious doesn't come up? It's a big deal for us when the conscious doesn't come up. But I'll talk about that later. Yeah, that was my other piece was the whole idea of that. Most of our practice together, most of the time when we're practicing together, we have four minds. Yeah, we have four ingredients, the body, the unconscious, the embodied consciousness, embodied mind, and we have the conscious mind, and we have wisdom mind. Wisdom mind we can't see, but we can see the conscious mind. We can't see the unconscious mind, but it is supporting our conscious mind, which we can see, and it's supporting our conscious version of the body, which we can't see. And Linda, you're raising your hand, but you're on the list of people to talk. So you're going to get your turn.

[23:06]

Maybe Linda could be next. Yeah. Thank you. Welcome. Actually, I wasn't doing this to raise my hand. I was really just enjoying moving my fingers. Wonderful. Now it's your turn. Yeah. So I didn't write it down or remember whatever I was going to say last week, but I just thought of something now. I was always fond of that fox, you know, I kind of loved that little fox. And the story made it sound like it was a punishment, you know, like he was too smart for his own good and he had to be 500 lives as a fox. Poor guy. And he finally got delivered. But I was just wondering just now. I mean, I like the fox. And I was wondering if the fox had been able to enjoy just being in his fox body. Maybe he wouldn't have had to go through 500 lives.

[24:12]

Maybe he would have. Maybe that would have been just fine. What do you think about that? I think that is a possibility. Well, it sounds so hypothetical. I was hoping it was actually more intimate than that. Why was I hoping that? Because I was just thinking... Because I was just thinking... Why? Why? Because of karmic consciousness. Yeah. Because that wish is karmic consciousness. So you're saying, why do I have karmic consciousness? No, I'm not saying that. I was trying to get less heady, actually, in giving categories and stuff. I'll just say this much, that the reason I thought of talking about the fox now and how I liked it, the fox, was because my current practices, I just barely hear you out on the edge of the solar system or something, is...

[25:22]

to try to actually settle into whatever is present in myself rather than thinking it should be something else. So that made me think that maybe the fox could have been just fine. That's all. Okay. And so connecting with what you just said, quite a few of you were at the No Abode program on Saturday, where I brought up this teaching, which is when you find your place where you are, another translation is when you find this place, that action realizes the koan. That's sort of what Linda just said.

[26:25]

She wants to do the practice of finding this place in no matter what's going on. When we find this place, no matter what's going on, that action realizes the ultimate truth. So what I want to say now before I go on to the other thing I want to talk about is one translation, like Haas' translation says, when we find our place where we are, practice occurs, realizing the fundamental point. But the other translations, many of the other translations say, when we find this place or when one finds this place, That action realizes the fundamental point.

[27:25]

That action is the practice. The practice is not to do this or that, but to find this place no matter what we're doing or that, whether we're doing this or that. So the funny thing is that it does say practice, but they also translate it as action. Practice is an action. But it's not karma. It's finding this place in our karma. Finding our place in our karma, we realize it's the fundamental point and we're free of our karma. But not by getting rid of it, but by finding this place right in it. And of course, it's going up and down with everything else every moment, right? And so it's very difficult for us to keep abreast. of the times, of the moment, which is arising and ceasing, arising and ceasing.

[28:27]

But that's the opportunity. Thank you, Linda. And June? Yes, June? What about the people from last time, like Yuki, who had... Oh, okay, thank you. Yuki, were you waiting at the end, Yuki? Yes, I was. Okay, so thank you, Joan. I mean, thank you, June. It's okay. Yuki? Thank you, June. Yeah, so I had a question. You... You talked about four things last time. You talked about three minds and the body. But we never got back to talking about wisdom mind. And I wanted to ask you some questions about wisdom mind.

[29:28]

Can I just say before we go on? Yeah. When you find this place where you are, that action is wisdom mind. Well, okay, so one of my questions was, are there other names for wisdom mind? And are you saying another name for wisdom mind is the practice? Another name for the wisdom mind is realizing the koan. Wisdom mind, you know, you might not be surprised that wisdom mind realizes all those koans. Those koans are for realizing wisdom mind, right? All the Zen teachings. So, to find our place... To find our place right here, in other words, to find this place, realizes reality. It is wisdom. And it frees us from this place, from, you know, wherever we are. So that's a local name for the wisdom mind in terms of what we're just talking about.

[30:37]

I have some other names for wisdom mind. which I like to bring up. Another name for wisdom mind is karma. The kind of karma that I have, this is wisdom mind talking. You say to wisdom mind, what kind of karma do you have? The wisdom mind says, karma that's not karma. That's what wisdom mind calls itself, if you ask it. what kind of karma it has. If you ask it what kind of thinking it has, it says thinking, not thinking. And then another name for wisdom mind is precious mirror samadhi. Another name for wisdom mind is Zazen. Another name for wisdom mind is self-receiving and employing samadhi. Another name for wisdom mind is Buddhist samadhi. And so on. We have... We have infinite names for wisdom.

[31:39]

Is that enough to get you started? Yeah, and I'm taking from what you said to Gayatri that wisdom mind is not something floating out there either. It is also a dependent arising. Is that correct? It is dependent co-arising realized. Okay. So we're all dependent co-arisings. Okay. Every moment, we are dependent core arising. We're all living together in dependent core arising, and we are dependent core risings. Wisdom realizes this inconceivable, marvelous reality. This inconceivable koan of dependent core arising. This indeceivable koan of dependent core arising by which we're really ungraspable and very ambiguous. So it's not something outside of us that just hints at things that we were supposed to kind of... It's not the least bit outside.

[32:44]

And yet, you know, if we turn away from it, it seems to be not here. And it's also different... It's still here, you know. But if we turn away from it, it's like it's not here. But it really is here. And yet... Just like a child who can turn away from something and think it's not there anymore, we do that with wisdom. It's not ever separate. And any kind of wisdom that is separate, it's a different kind of wisdom, not Buddhist wisdom. Well, so that's another question. It's not what we sometimes call... It's not to be confused with what we sometimes call intuition. Intuition is just another... kind of knowing to question, is that it? But it's not separate from intuition. It's intuition as an understood dependable arising.

[33:51]

And we need those dependable arisings, and we've got them. So now I would like to shift gears and go on to... what I would have talked about, which follows up from what Susan Griffin was bringing up last time. So if I could just say one version of what she brought up from my perspective was she was going to have a procedure in which she knew beforehand that her... Could you put Susan on the screen with me, please, Gay? And see if she agrees with my... Memory of what she brought up. So my memory is she told us some things she did before the procedure. And I call that she front loaded. She front loaded her unconscious.

[34:55]

In anticipation of her consciousness being attenuated. She consciously. made all kinds of nice contributions to her unconscious. So when we think a good, a loving thought, when we think of protecting and cherishing a living being, that changes our unconscious embodied awareness. And it changes our body. And the more we consciously think, thoughts of loving kindness and compassion for beings, every time we think one of those thoughts, simultaneously with that conscious thought, the unconscious is transformed, is modified. And also, the body is also modified. So basically, what I'm suggesting is that for the rest of our lives, let's front load our body and mind to

[36:00]

our body and our unconscious mind, just in case our consciousness becomes attenuated so that we can perform wonderful feats, even if we have almost no consciousness, so that we can still play the piano or sit up straight and be aware through our upright sitting of a wonderful world, even though we don't have consciousness. So one of the ways to front load your unconscious and your body is to practice upright sitting. When you consciously practice upright sitting, you transform your unconscious. And when your unconscious gets transformed, In other words, your embodied mind gets transformed, your body gets transformed.

[37:07]

So we have been doing this and now I'm calling it out and saying we have been practicing for quite a while and let's continue consciously practicing because that transforms the body. the basis for further consciousness, but also even if our consciousness becomes attenuated, that body and mind will continue to do the things which it has been doing under conscious supervision and conscious appreciation and conscious encouragement. Our body is full of so much awareness. And in Zen, we put a lot of emphasis on what's called Hara. And we don't put as much emphasis as some other schools on the heart. But when we practice loving kindness, it transforms our heart.

[38:14]

It makes our heart more loving. When I, about 20, a little bit more than 22 years ago, I was in an interview here at Green Gulch in a little room where I talked to people. And I was talking to Fu Schrader. And she was telling me about some people not being very nice to her daughter. And I felt pain in my heart. And I thought, oh, I'm feeling that pain because of what she told me about her daughter. That was my intuition. And then the pain continued, but it started to take a shape that seemed kind of unusual. And then I thought, well, maybe I'm having a heart attack.

[39:20]

But in both cases, my body was talking to me. I didn't, I could have said, hey, body, how you doing this morning? Body could have said, we got pain here. But I didn't. It spoke without me asking it. But the more we practice compassion, the more we are listening to our own heart. And the more we listen to our own heart, the more mature our heart becomes. And the more we sit, the more mature our posture becomes. And the more we put our mudra in our abdomen, the more we give attention to that part of our body, which is our mind, not our conscious mind, but our mind. So all these things are things which we should really

[40:24]

Yeah, appreciate it. And put a lot of our love and kindness into them. Then we won't be afraid of having anything taken away. Because the unconscious also is not just the sattva loka. It's not just where I am. It's also the whole physical universe. So the whole physical universe that we share, that we make with our karma, that gets transformed by our practice with our body. And once again, I want to reemphasize what I said a little earlier. Wisdom is an action, but it's not karma itself.

[41:26]

in the sense of the overall pattern of self-centered consciousness. And so it's, in a sense, it's a type of action which frees us from all our past action. And even if we can't remember any of the teachings that we've heard or even offered, Our body and mind will remember them if we have been, if you excuse the expression, front-loading our body and mind for when there's no front-loader anymore. So the body and mind don't front-load our consciousness, they support it. And the consciousness then transforms the unconscious. And then the consciousness supports the consciousness. And also I just want to say that when I had a procedure recently, I had a strong sense of, you know, I hadn't been here and then I was.

[42:44]

I really had a strong sense of the arising of me. So one of the advantages of this kind of like removing the consciousness for a time is you have a nice clear sense of, oh, I'm back or the realm of where I am is back. And that happens every moment, but sometimes we miss a beat or two. Have you noticed? Okay. So I see Rosie and Leslie. I'm pretty sure Rosie was before me. Okay, Rosie. Yes, here I am. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you, Rob. I just am feeling all this heart-opening joy in your giving us this teaching with so much specificity around the body and the distinctions that you're making.

[44:01]

for us that bring all of the body-mind, the unconscious, the karmic consciousness, the indivisibility of it all, and the deep wisdom that one moment, the next, with just Being with this. This body. This, and then it changes. Okay, this. And that's just this. That teaching. The word that I missed in all that you said that keeps me with this. just that keeps this with this body-mind is the breath.

[45:10]

Could you speak with that? To that? How that works for you in transforming? The conscious kindness to the body. transforms the body. The conscious kindness to the consciously appearing body and the conscious kindness to the consciously appearing breath transforms the unconscious body and the unconscious breath. And the unconscious body and the unconscious breath go on even if there's no consciousness. which we want, right? So all night long, not all night long, but when we're in deep sleep, there's no consciousness, but there is unconscious breathing and unconscious breath.

[46:12]

And the unconscious breathing, excuse me, the unconscious breathing and unconscious body. And the unconscious body has all kinds of intelligence in it. By which you can tell, for example, that it would be good to move a little bit because the arm's falling asleep. Or it would be good to get up because it's time to go to the toilet. Or it would be good to get up because there's a pain in the gut. Or it would be good to get up because there's something going on in the heart. All that's going on all night long. And sometimes it's going on. And it's going on when we're unconscious. But sometimes it then says we should become conscious. And then we do. But we become conscious based on the body, the unconscious body, because there's no conscious body at that moment.

[47:15]

Conscious body, conscious breath, and conscious mind are turned off or not operating. But the unconscious breath, And the unconscious body and the unconscious mind are still there. And in consciousness, if we're kind to our body and we're kind to our posture and kind to all beings, that makes our unconscious body and breath more supportive of health and peace and giving rise to consciousnesses which will be likely to consciously care for breath and body. So breath is part of the body. A body that's not breathing is not a living body. But the actual breathing we're not conscious of.

[48:16]

We're conscious of a mentally constructed version of the breathing. And if that mentally constructed version of the breathing goes into hiatus, no problem, because the actual breathing continues or can continue. So our ideas of breathing, we use them as an opportunity for being kind and being attentive and being patient with that conscious appearance. is good for the unconscious breath, which is right there. Okay, so one more. Playing upon that. Are you saying that the attention, the awareness of the breath, oh, I lost my thread.

[49:22]

There's something about a missing piece for me. I'm wondering, is there, is our paying attention to the, oh, I know what it is. The word sensation is that it are the sensations of breathing and idea. We are direct experience of sensations and idea of the breath. I would say. Usually when we say direct sensation, we mean unmediated by ideas. Yes. However, in consciousness, most of the time, we have ideas of breath. We don't see the breath. We see an idea of the breath. Or we see the word breath. Or we see the word inhale. Or we have an image of the breath moving through our body. What if we have a feeling of the breath moving through our body, a sensation of the breath?

[50:28]

Feeling of the... Well, again, in Buddhism, we say feelings are positive, negative, and neutral. So I think when you say... Pardon? Go to sensation, not feeling. I understand. Like, dislike, you know... But again, we use the word sensation for feeling. But also sensation can be used for the actual sense data. The sense of touch. That's what I'm talking about. But the sense of touch that appears consciously is not the actual sense of touch. It's a mentally... It's a consciously... It's a construction that appears in consciousness which we can be mentally aware of. We cannot be mentally aware of direct... sensation. Can we be physically aware of a direct sensation? We can be physically aware of a direct sensation? No? There is a touch consciousness.

[51:33]

And the touch consciousness is the relationship, the interaction between a tangible and the skin. Or the tangible and the sense of touch. That interaction is the consciousness of touch, or the mind of touch. But that does not appear in consciousness. You mean it can never appear in consciousness, or it just doesn't? It never does. What it does, it stimulates the consciousness by giving it an idea of that. There's no actual skin in the consciousness. There's no skin there. And there's no rough surfaces touching the skin or smooth surfaces touching the skin in the consciousness.

[52:38]

The actual touching of the sensitive tissue with some physical object, that touching does occur and it occurs with awareness. unconsciously. And that relationship there, that touch, giving rise to that consciousness, supports the arising, that mind, that unconscious embodied mind. So the embodied mind is the actual physical interaction between sense organs and sense objects. And that supports consciousness. But there's no sense objects in the consciousness. There's no light in the consciousness. There's no smell in the consciousness. There's no tongue in the consciousness. That's all unconscious. The actual tongue. This thing here I'm touching, this is how it appears in my consciousness. But that's not the sense of touch.

[53:39]

That's not the sense of touch or the sense of taste. The sense of taste is not what I think it is. I understand that. But by being kind and attentive to what's appearing in consciousness, it's good for our unconscious body and our unconscious mind, which lives with the body. I could never say all of that, of course, so I'm extremely appreciative of that. And I think everyone appreciates you bringing up the body. Thank you. Thank you so much for always meeting me. Leslie. Hi, Rob and everyone. Such confusion and...

[54:41]

And what is that confusion again? Is that confusion karmic consciousness by any chance? Correct answer, yes. Yeah. So you have just revealed to us some awareness of karmic consciousness. So you're in the ballpark. Okay. So I don't even know if the question I'm going to ask. makes sense in the context of this. But today, I was talking to a young man and he was so sad. It's somebody I've known. Just everything about him was so sad. And it's like been this pattern, even in the last week, my son, just both of them expressing how lonely they are and they can't seemed to connect with people. And then I met another young man who said the same thing.

[55:43]

And my reaction later actually was just this weird kind of almost, it was beyond sad. It was anger. And I thought, well, what does it matter if we're all dependent, co-rising, if each individual person is walking around with this enormous suffering and you can't do anything? For their suffering. You can't relieve the millions of people starving or you can't. What does it matter if inside I'm kind? If everybody is walking around with this separate suffering. I hope this makes sense. It does. Yeah, it does make sense. And so you say, what does it matter? So would it matter if you could free people from their suffering? Would that matter? Yes. Yeah. Well, this is how you free people from suffering. Already, their suffering is dependable arising.

[56:47]

So you say, so what does it matter that their suffering is dependable arising? What matters is, is that if you understand how their suffering is dependable arising, they will be liberated. They will be free. Just by understanding that. That's the theory here. Understanding dependent co-arising liberates people from suffering because suffering is a dependent co-arising. But just to be suffering and hear that it's a dependent co-arising, you could say you may not see much good of that. I'd say, well, just wait a second now. So far, we haven't seen much good of it. So let me just tell you, if you would understand that, That would liberate them. If you think liberating people from suffering is good, then dependent core rising is what you think is good. Because dependent core rising, there can be dependent core rising of suffering, and there can be dependent core rising of freedom from suffering.

[57:54]

The dependent core rising of freedom from suffering comes with understanding dependent core rising. The dependent core rising of misery comes from not understanding dependent core rising. So suffering is a dependent core rising, and so is freedom. The freedom comes with studying the dependent core rising of suffering. That's what this class is about, is studying karma, because karma is the dependent core rising of suffering. And if we understand how karma dependently co-arises, that will be freedom from the causes and conditions of suffering. And yet, this young man I was talking to today, let's say I was the most enlightened person in the world and completely understood it.

[59:03]

he'd still go to his apartment and be lonely and desperate. Before he went to his apartment, though, you could have shown him how to deal with his loneliness. But it doesn't mean you'd be successful. But if you were really a great teacher, you could show him, before he went away from you, you could show him how to deal with his loneliness and his misery. And you could show him because you... have spent lots of time dealing with your loneliness and your suffering. And you dealt with your loneliness and suffering so long that you saw how it dependently co-erose and you became free. So then when you meet people, you can show them how to do the same thing you did, which is to be deeply, intimately compassionate with your loneliness and suffering. So he needs, this young man needs somebody to teach him how to be intimate with his suffering, with his loneliness.

[60:08]

And if he can be intimate with it, he will realize that it's a dependent core rising. And he will be free. And then he can teach others who have not yet learned how to be intimate with their loneliness. But if loneliness comes, the practice is to find... This place in the loneliness. And how would you do that in a passing conversation? Right now, am I having a passing conversation with you? Hmm? Are you having a passing conversation with me? Are we? Are we here together? Yeah. So I want to find this place. In this conversation with Leslie, not later, now, I want to find this place here with you, which means I want to be completely here with you, not with anybody else, not with a different you or a different me.

[61:19]

I really do want to, and I believe that that will realize the truth, which will help this young man if he could receive it too. So if I met him, I would want to do the same practice of be there completely with him. I'm not saying I will be able to, but that's what I would want to do because that's what he has to do. As long as he's running away from this place, he's just more loneliness. But if I can be here with me and you and him, then he could join us. And if he joins us, he can be free. But he has to join us right in the middle of his suffering, in the middle of his loneliness. And we have to help him not run away by being, you know, not holding him back, but being willing to be there with him and not talk him out of it. Like, how can you be lonely? I'm here. No, we don't say that. Say, I'm lonely too.

[62:22]

I'm with you. And he may say, I don't care. This helps a lot. I have one. When you've talked about, but if you're trying to help somebody, but you're trying to get something out of it, is one way of trying to get something out of it is not talking to him in this moment who he is right now. Is that a different way of trying to get something out of it because you're trying to make him somebody else? It's common in karmic consciousness. It's common. to be involved in some project of getting something out of it. That's quite common. So the practice is find this place right here in trying to get something out of it. That's another good opportunity to find this place right here. Thank you.

[63:25]

You help me in my suffering right now. Thank you. You helped me in mind too. Hello, June. Mute, unmute. Unmute, okay. Hello, Rick. I've unmuted. I can hear you. Okay, good. Hello. So, well, I'm in a different place from that last conversation, which was beautiful. So, my question feels mundane in comparison.

[64:26]

Mundane? Sounds like karmic consciousness. Yeah, it is. I convince. Mermic consciousness is mundane. It is, I know, but... And it's calling for compassion. Yes, it is. Well, maybe you can help. You said earlier about there are people who believe otherwise. And the Buddhists believe that you don't carry over. From one moment to the next. I don't know if Buddhists believe that. I'm saying Buddha taught that. Okay. Buddha taught that. Could you. Yeah. Well. I'll stick to the question. Who are those people. Who don't. Accept that.

[65:28]

Don't know about that. Don't believe that. Like. Like me, before I heard the teaching. That's an example. Before I heard this teaching, I thought things carried over. And my grandchildren, they think things carry over. It's a natural human delusion to think that you were the same person we were yesterday. That the self carries over. It's an endemic, common... It's like the body has that in it already. Without education, the body thinks it lasts. Which is a lot of suffering for the body when it thinks it lasts. Because it has trouble adjusting to reality that it's not lasting. Even people who want to be Buddhists still haven't really learned that. Some of them. I was going to say, that comes and goes. I'm signed up for Buddhism, but I don't quite get this impermanence thing yet.

[66:33]

Or somehow... I still think I'm the same person I was yesterday. Yes. Yes. In a way. Yeah, in a way. In a way, it's true. Well, that's what I was going to say. But like the unconscious... front-loading is a way of... what the self of the past carrying over to the self in the next moment. No. Doesn't carry over. Well, it's in the past. It doesn't carry over. And it's included. The past, which does not carry over, is included in the present. Yesterday does not carry over to today. But yesterday is included in today. I'm talking about it right now. But it doesn't carry over.

[67:34]

If it carries over, it wasn't really yesterday. Yesterday does not carry over, but it's included. And I'm also free of yesterday. Okay. That helps quite a bit. Yeah. It's a learning thing. I have another question, if there are... Oh, there are other people waiting. Then I'll do it next time or some other time. Thank you. Thank you for being sensitive to the other yellow hands. Yes. Hi, Rev. Hi, Great Assembly. Hi, Barry. I wanted to share some of my process with you. I was so grateful when you explained and asked us to be aware of the comic consciousness that's with us every moment of every day.

[68:45]

And I have been able to catch the stories that I make in my mind, the stories that are based, you know, from decisions that, you know, in my pain as a child, I made childish decisions that have stayed with me as an adult. And I've been able to sort of see the stories that I make in my mind, this sort of constant chatter. And to be able to look at that has been of help to me because at the very least I can do is to replace those stories with better stories, with the desire to liberate all beings, as opposed to, for example, think that I'm better than everybody else, because I used to do that as a child to make myself feel better by thinking, well, I'm actually more intelligent, more clever than everybody else, and I would do that just to make myself feel less lonely and afraid.

[69:52]

And so it's been a great help, and I thank you for that. that now at least I can catch those moments and be aware of them, see them and replace them. Hopefully I won't need to replace them. I will be able to just have nothing, but that's on the way. So thank you. Hello, Rev. Hello, Assembly. Hello. And thank you, Barry, for your beautiful expressions. So I think the last point that he mentioned about not replacing, and that was my question, actually, that does karmic consciousness or is karmic consciousness always in need for a replacement?

[70:53]

Or can karmic consciousness live with BNT. What karmic consciousness needs is, first of all, loving kindness and compassion. It's calling for compassion. This current story is calling for compassion. And if there can be wholehearted compassion towards this story, then there can be finding this place in this story. And then there can be freedom from this story. But we can't become free of the story or there won't be freedom of the story until we are compassionate towards this story, which is calling for compassion. And as Barry said, these stories often arise because we're having a hard time. And these stories are kind of...

[71:55]

They're kind of coping mechanisms to cope with the suffering and the fear of the playground. Okay, now these stories can maybe get the compassion that they didn't get when they were first appearing. And in that compassion, we'll be able to settle into this place. And if we settle into this place, the karmic consciousness will be liberated. Okay. So in actuality is the practice and the practice and the practice and the practice of compassion ends the story. It's not that we end the story. It comes to an end by... Well, no, the story... No, I don't think so. I think the story ends each moment and then another one comes, which may be similar or different. The compassion doesn't end... If you have compassion for me, you don't end me. No, and in a sense, when I say and means dissolve.

[72:59]

If you have compassion for me, you don't dissolve me. No, no, no, no. I don't dissolve you. It's dissolved. There's no you and me. There's no separation. There's a story in your mind. If you dissolve the story of me, that's not what I want. I want you to be compassionate to the story of me. Compassion doesn't dissolve. suffering. It doesn't dissolve it. It liberates it. Okay, liberates. So I use the word... Yeah. So no, the ending is the liberation. But it's not an end. It's just a temporary liberation until the next opportunity for liberation comes. It's liberation, liberation, liberation, not liberation, and that's it. Yeah, but that's compassion, compassion, compassion, compassion. That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah.

[74:02]

There's just no end, that's all. And if there's an end, let's be compassionate to that too. Tim. It seems to me that great faith is integral to practice, to studying karmic consciousness, to being Deep, compassionate. You said great, right? Yeah, great. This says deep, deep faith in cause and effect. That's what Dogen had, and he wants us to have it too.

[75:06]

And Buddha had it too. Buddha had deep faith, or great faith in cause and effect. That's part of the first, that's part of right view, is deep faith in cause and effect. And the worst thing is to not believe in cause and effect. That's the Buddhist said. So we do need it. We need deep faith, great faith in the importance of cause and effect. Yes. And it seems, I mean, I've been trying to, you know, like... Faith has been coming up in this karmic consciousness. And what is faith is kind of the question that's been coming up. And what I've been toying with is, you know, there's a wish.

[76:16]

There's an openness to explore. And there is also a doubt that kind of gives life to the faith. So it's not like believing, it's not blind belief, but it's more because of the doubt and the kind of faith, you could say, or the openness that faith deepens. And I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. Let's say you wish to be kind to someone, or you wish to take care of and protect a baby. Okay? Now, that wish could support faith in taking care of the baby. But let's say...

[77:21]

It's possible that you don't have a wish to take care of the baby, but you do. And when you take care of the baby, you know, wholeheartedly, you have faith in taking care of the baby. But often, I wish to take care of the baby, and hopefully I do take care of the baby. So when I do take care of the baby, when I wish to take care of the baby, then I would say that really is the faith. So the faith and the practice are very close together. So what's the difference between just doing the practice and the faith? I guess it makes the taking care of the baby more wonderful. Now, I'm not just taking care of the baby. This is what I think... I'm not just taking care of this baby. I think this is really what I want to do with my life. So then it's like I'm doing the practice of taking care of the baby, but also I have the faith, which is manifesting and taking care of the baby, but it brings me more joy and depth to my work.

[78:34]

And it also goes with wishing to take care of the baby. Almost like a deep sense of commitment. And also this doesn't, what do you call it? Doubt's part of the process. Because, for example, I could doubt or I could question, am I really taking care of the baby? Or I could question, what is child care? Somehow I want to do it. And when I'm doing it, I feel really good. But I'm not sure I know what it is. And I don't know if I ever will. But I want to keep doing it. And when I'm doing it, I really feel this is what I want to do with my life. But I have some doubt about it too, some uncertainty. But I think that uncertainty actually enhances the practice. It's not a corrosive doubt. It's a nourishing doubt, a questioning doubt. I want to be a sense student, but I don't know if I am.

[79:37]

I think it'd be great if I was a bodhisattva, but I'm not so sure. And in the Avatamsaka Sutra, the last part of the Avatamsaka Sutra, this one bodhisattva student visits many, many teachers, and each teacher he meets, they give him these great teachings, and then the teachers describe what bodhisattva practice is. And their description of bodhisattva practice is such that they all conclude, so how would I know anything about it? It's so vast and magnificent. How could I know anything about it? You should go see the next person. But still, I want to be a bodhisattva, even though, really, you should go see somebody else, because I really don't know anything. But I'm still committed, and I'm still joyfully trying. You're welcome.

[80:45]

I think Chai Ying was next. Is that right? Hi, Rep. Good evening. Good evening. My question is short. So you said that everything in the past moment are the conditions of this present moment. So my question is, besides everything in the past moment, are there other conditions of the present moment? Yeah, so the past moment is the thing you did in the past, the things your parents did in the past, the things I did in the past, all those things in the past are conditions for the present moment. But in the present moment, there's also the fact that the atmosphere of this planet, I hear, has about 16% oxygen.

[81:46]

That's a condition for the present moment of this person who breathes the air. If the oxygen level drops below that, I'll die soon. If it gets much above it, the world will catch on fire. So the air we breathe and which we share. So not only is the air a condition for my present karmic consciousness, the present air, but also the past air. And the past air is a condition for the present air. But the present air is a condition for my breathing, for my body, which is a condition for my mind, which is a condition for my consciousness. And now that, but the fact that you're breathing the air is also a condition for my consciousness. my breathing. The fact that we're doing it together is a condition for both of us. So there's an inconceivable, vast, causal network in the present for the present moment, right now, all these things, and also all the past.

[82:51]

So your question was short, but my answer was long. And you were also saying that this moment includes past and now and future. So does anything in the future affect the conditions of this moment? Well, the fact that we care about the future, the fact that I care about your future, the fact that I care about young people's future, that's for me now, right here. It's very strong. The fact that we're concerned about the future, life of the people in the Ukraine. We're concerned about their future. That's in our life right now. But that future doesn't carry over to the present. It's in the present right now. We care about the future of those people. And we can be free of that future and free of the past by the practice in the present.

[83:55]

And we can show other people many people are are not free of the future of the people in Ukraine. And that's a suffering. So including all that and being right here, we liberate the past and the future and the present. That's my outrageous concluding statement. And hopefully I'll get to you next time, Gail.

[84:20]

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