Are you ready to look at the case 76? I do. Are you ready for case 76? You're not ready? Did you say we're not quite there? Well, we can be. I'd be okay with that. You would? That's what I meant. Are you okay with it? Sure. Are you ready? As ready as I would be for 75. Pardon? Yeah, we took care of the verse very nicely. But I don't want to rush you. Any other comments about 75 or 76? You would?

[01:09]

Any other comments about whether we should go on or spend more time on 75? Pardon? Welcome, Fred. Thank you. Welcome. I already said that. No, I know you haven't read it. We'll just be starting it. I see. Just be starting it. Pardon? How did you know I didn't read something for you? How did I know? He just told me. No. No. I didn't say that. Did I?

[02:14]

I didn't say that, did I? Huh? I said what? You said something like that, but I don't think you meant it in that way. I said we're going to read 76. Did you play it wrong? This K74 is about all things are established on a non-abiding basis. Right? And then K75 is about a fundamental constant principle. the fundamental constant principle is moving. So we have a non-abiding basis, and then we have a fundamental principle, which is moving.

[03:24]

And now we have these three... phrases that are being brought up here in case 76. I do have copies of case 76. But is there anything else anybody wants to bring up about these past two cases, 74 and 75? You have a question? Yes. It says he travels in different paths, transmigrating for now. I was just wondering. On the second page, it says, yes? The golden chains and hidden barriers cannot stop him, which I understand, but he travels in different paths, transmigrating for now. This paragraph says, in general, when things have edges, they can't roll freely.

[05:08]

If you want to be lively and frisky without sticking to or depending on anything, just set your eyes on agreement-non-agreement. Naturally, you will not stay on this shore, nor on that shore, nor in midstream. This is why Dungsan said, I half understand, half don't agree. I half agree, half don't agree. This is why Sushant said, agreement cannot be complete. Do you know such a person's plan to return? And then we have the verse, the golden chains and hidden barrier cannot stop him.

[06:20]

He travels in different paths, transmigrating for now. So Lisa asked a question about that verse. She said she understood the line about that the golden chains and hidden barrier cannot stop him. but she had a question about he travels in different paths, transmigrating for now. What's the question? I don't understand it. What do you understand about the first paragraph, the first line? What does that mean to you?

[07:21]

There's... I think that it's almost like if you combine the first K74, K75s, you've got not abiding and you've got the constant principle that nothing can stop you. Uh-huh. Because there's... You is just moment by moment. Who you is. Pardon? Who you is is moment by moment. Who you is is moment by moment? Uh-huh. And it doesn't make sense to you that such a person would be traveling on different paths and transmigrating for now? Taking different forms, taking different births for now?

[08:23]

What is the fundamental constant principle the auspicious cliff asked the top of the cliff? Rui Yan asked Yanto, what is the fundamental constant principle? And Yanto said, moving. Rui Yan said, when moving, what then? Yanto said, you don't see the fundamental constant principle. Lui Yan stood there thinking, and Yan To said, If you agree, you are not yet free from sense and matter.

[10:08]

If you disagree, you'll forever be sunk in birth and death. And then at the end it says, Just set your eyes on agreement and non-agreement, on that agreement-non-agreement. Put your eyes on that. So the case is bringing up this agreement-non-agreement. He says, if you agree, you get to go over there. If you don't agree, you go over there. But how about neither going to agreement nor non-agreement and just stay right with this dynamic of agreement and non-agreement. Okay? This is a kind of something to look at.

[11:12]

And someone reminded me of these these little books, you know, where there's a picture, and you look cross-eyed and suddenly you see it becomes 3D, plus you see patterns in the pictures that you didn't see before. This is kind of like that. These cases are like that. So in this case, you're looking at this picture. You've got a picture of agreement, non-agreement, okay? Look at agreement, non-agreement, slightly cross-eyed, and then what world do you enter then? And I was talking to actually two people today about this thing that it's hard for, when people are working with a teacher, it's hard for them to, it's easy for them just to avoid the whole situation. But when you meet a teacher, it's hard. Either you want to agree or disagree, like do what the teacher says or

[12:20]

don't do what the teacher says, but like interacting without... You can agree and disagree, but really the point is to meet in taking neither side. And it's hard for people to like not do either one, not to slip into one side or the other. Isn't it? It's hard. Like walking on the edge of a sword. Could you speak up? Like walking on the edge of a sword. Yeah, like walking on the edge of a sword. But in this case, it's maybe looking at the case, it's like looking at the case, looking at the issue of agreement and disagreement, agreement and non-agreement, looking at that situation. without going on either side of it, and using that as a point of entry into some kind of like, in some sense, an embedded pattern that's embedded in this story.

[13:41]

So the story has this superficial thing about agreement and disagreement, And then it has this texture of the fundamental constant principle and it's moving. That's all there. And then by... And then, so what's his name? Yu Yan is standing there trying to understand, you know, how to enter this. And then he gets a further instruction on the problems of agreement and disagreement. So, like with the teacher, if you disagree with the teacher, you get in a certain kind of trouble. And if you agree with the teacher, you get in a certain kind of trouble. Agreeing with the teacher means I don't know what. Maybe you agree with the teacher rather than what the teacher is saying just happens to be right. In other words, what you think.

[14:44]

Well, it's like you're kind of like using ambivalence instead of as a hindrance, using it as a door. But it's not that you're half-hearted. It's that you're not getting involved in either side, and you're staying with both sides. So you're not half this way and half that way. You're 100% not getting involved in either side or the middle. So that's kind of the beginning instruction. There's a dialogue, right? And then there's this meditation instruction to the monk who's thinking. trying to think, he's trying to figure out what to do with this, and he gets his instructions. So that's an instruction at the beginning, in the case, and it's also the instruction at the end of the case. But again, it seems to me, emphasizing try to find a way to look at the case.

[15:55]

Try to find a way to look at the case. I love this case. I now pronounce you case and priest. To have and to not have. For better, for worse, for rich and for poor, in sickness and in health, till death do you part.

[16:57]

Did you see something, Barrett? Can it happen as long as you're holding on? Well, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't? Really? Well, what's this? Can you walk through the barriers?

[18:12]

When it says here, stay on this shore, Right. It's very similar, isn't it? Yes. I think it does. I'm not disagreeing with you. Did you think you were in a situation like that? Did you think you were in a situation like that?

[19:17]

Do you agree with what you just said? OK. Now shall we go on to case 76? So this is one rendition. He gets up in the morning, he goes to the mirror, and he says, Master. And he says, yes.

[20:31]

Or you could say, yes, sir. I kind of like yes, sir, actually. Or if you're a woman, maybe you say, yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Actually, if you're a man, it might be fun to do that too. Yes, ma'am. Or, yes, ma'am. And then you say, are you awake? And then you say, yes. Yes. And then you say all day long, don't let other people fool you. And you say, yes, yes. Or, yes, I will. No.

[21:32]

No, I won't. Okay? Something like that. In the morning? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. And I'm more and more curious about who is talking to whom. So that's the question. Really. Did you raise that question? Did you raise it in the mirror? Yeah. Was there an answer? Not really, no. Well, if I was talking to the Master, who was I?

[22:43]

Who was the Master? And why would I be instructing the Master of an outdated school? Why would I even be reminding the Master that he or she is awake? Right, but you might not have been doing that. You might not have been reminding the Master. You might have been just asking the Master. And the Master, when asked, says, yes, I am. That's not me. Who was it? Who said that? Did you say yes? Yes, I did. I didn't have a feeling of mastership when I said it.

[23:54]

That's part of the wonder, is you don't need to have a feeling of mastership to say yes. He said I should go walk all the time. And you see him down there, and you hear him call out, Rayan! Yet! Are you awake? Yet! And stay alert! Okay! But he'd also, you know, put an issue of Master, too, which I think isn't open. He would actually give teishos to his students. He would sit up in front in the zendo, and he would actually just do question and answer as his lecture to the students.

[24:58]

And one, Eiken Roshi, Will Kahn and Eiken Roshi, his interpretation is that in the asking, in the moment of asking, you drop body and mind. The asking and the answering, that's what the process is. Also I have a problem with, I'm sorry, with don't let other people fool you. I thought it was don't let anybody fool you. Don't let anybody fool you, you don't have a problem with? No. But don't let other people fool you, you do have a problem with? I would like also, don't let Purnima fool you, because I'll tell you very specifically why, because other people implies, I think, other people. Yeah, it does. But I felt at the beginning that it was also the people in him.

[26:02]

Yeah. If that is your... What? I didn't hear. If there were other people, that would be funny. If there were other people? Yeah, you said, tell me what other people told you. That's fine. I guess I do... If you thought there were other people. Oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. Oh, yeah, no, no, but that's different. Different point. The version that I've heard was, don't be fooled by anything. I'm OK. I'm not a . I'm not a . They polished metal.

[27:06]

What? Polished metal. You see in the museums in China, you see a lot of these beautiful... the backs of mirrors. The front's not that interesting usually. It's just a tarnished piece of metal. But they have these beautiful mirrors. You see the backs of them. You turn them over, it's a piece of metal which you polish. Copper or... You use often copper. You can see yourself quite clearly in a polished metal. Does that make sense? Another little thing is that Andy said he was sitting on top of a rock. In this story, the person he's talking to is on top of the rock. That's the name of the person he's talking to. He's talking to on top of the rock.

[28:08]

Yes? I'm just saying... The one standing on the shore saying to the one not standing on the shore, you know, are you awake? I mean, that's kind of how I thought about it. The one who's standing on the shore is talking to one who's not standing on the shore. Or an opportunity to not stand on the shore. Yeah, because the mirror is not really standing on any shore, is it? And the air is not really standing on a shore. So you can talk to the air or a mirror or the water or a mountain.

[29:14]

These things are not standing on shores. Definitely. Well, if you talk to a person, sometimes you get a more complicated answer. They don't necessarily sit there and say, what are you calling me master for? Or why are you calling me Reb? Reb? See what I mean? They smile and stuff like that. So it's you, but... Pardon? It's you, but what? Well, it's recorded. Oh, yes, yes. You said to put yourself up and we'll stick to that. Yes, Fred?

[30:19]

This is only an association or a comment of the kind that really is a kind of self-indulgence. But I'm I'm just a little bit surprised that we're not talking about how I am asleep all the time and that other people and myself fool me all the time, day in and day out. Or is that all implied? It's all implied. Yeah, all these people know that they're asleep all day long and everybody's reminding them to stay asleep.

[31:27]

They already know that. That's why this behavior of riyan is kind of like, it jars that sleepiness that we're in. Hmm. Which also, you know, we're asleep plus not only we're asleep, but we don't feel particularly awake, necessarily. But we might feel awake, but then we don't even trust that. But aren't we right? Aren't we right? Yes, in not trusting it. Oh, of course. But we don't. Well, we don't distrust it. We don't? That's the problem. That's the problem. That's the problem? Yes. It's a problem that we don't distrust it and we're right to trust it? No.

[32:29]

We're wrong when we trust it. Oh, I thought you said we're right when we trust it. You're feeling slicker and weaker. You're warning someone about something? Yes, me. So this monk named Shosan, which means head of the mountain, said to his assembly, if you attain the first phrase, you will be a teacher of Buddhas and ancestors. If you attain the second phrase, you will be a teacher of humans and gods. If you attain the third phrase, you cannot even save yourself.

[33:31]

And then a monk asked him, at which phrase did you attain And Shosan said, the moon sets, the way Cleary has it, the moon sets midnight going through the marketplace. Or you could say the moon sets at midnight going through the marketplace. Or you could say after the moon sets at midnight, going through the marketplace. And then there's a big footnote on this. So you can have an explanation of that. And so some people are looking to see the footnote, which I understand you might want to do once I tell you that there is a footnote. And yes,

[34:34]

Oh, do I have copies of it? Oh, yeah, I do. Would you pass these out, please? How many people need them? Would you pass these out, Alain? Not here. Take them around. Get up out of the chair and go to the people. So I'm not sure, you know, how to approach this situation of this case. I feel suspicious of picking the fruits here that are hung on the tree in this case.

[35:58]

It's like the way it looks right away is so clear. and easily graspable that I hesitate to start grabbing the surface of it. The surface is so clear. But to try to avoid grabbing the surface seems kind of like going to the other extreme. Now, if you don't look at the... If you don't look at the... Or even if you do look at the... Yeah.

[37:22]

If you look at the commentary and then also you look at the footnotes, you're going to get a lot of information about the surface. So then we're going to be like having a good time on the surface of the koan. I don't know if we should do that or not. What do you think? If we don't look at the surface, then we're going to be looking at the surface anyway, but in a way that's not going to be as much fun. And it's going to be more difficult to grasp anything. Because... Well, like, you know, the first phrase, second phrase, and third phrase. In the first phrase, you're a teacher of the Buddhas and ancestors. The second phrase, you're a teacher of humans and celestials. And in the third phrase, if you attain on the third phrase, you can't even help yourself.

[38:23]

So there you go. So without looking at all this information, what's the first phrase? The moon sets. The moon sets? Yes, you think? Wow. Got over that. And the second phrase? Going through, no, midnight. The third phrase is midnight? The second phrase is midnight. And the third phrase? Going to the market. Okay, there you go. Okay. So the first phrase is the moon sets. Second phrase is midnight. Third phrase is deeply penetrating the city. And how does that relate to teaching the Buddhas, teaching the humans and gods, and not even being able to save yourself?

[39:37]

Yes? Yes. Is this like a hologram? Is it like a hologram? Yeah. All the koans are like holograms. When you go into a space, is it a holoform? A holographic form? When you go into space and you experience... What's that called? I don't know. So a different kind of surface reading of it would be like the Confucian saying, if I pick up one corner, you should understand all four.

[40:59]

That kind of thing. So the first word or the first move, one's personal aptitude to be able to penetrate. clearly. And this describes successive stages of ineptitude, of an act one, less act one, inept one. So that's one kind of surface reading, aptitude. And another is service reading is in terms of levels of thought. At the first moment of thought would be the first phrase, the first intuitive grasping. The second phrase might be on complete verbalization.

[42:05]

And the third phrase might be on further reflection. The first one is what? The first story of intermission, first response. The second one is what? The second is a completely verbalized thought. A completely verbalized thought. And the third, the product of reflection. Yes? I'm just going to say this. For me, the first phrase is help. Is what? Help. Help? And the second phrase is, I don't know. And the third phrase is, what's needed? And help means you're saying help? You're saying help?

[43:06]

Mm-hmm. Any other superficial takes? Thanks, Jackie. Right. That's another superficial answer, right? That's another superficial answer is the answers at the back of the book on page 442. There's another answer there for you. Huh? You like that one? What's the answer? Pardon? Is that Moonsets? Or... Or is it, is it Moonset?

[44:12]

Midnight, maybe. It might be midnight, too. We're not sure over here. And midnight is not dwelling on attachment and going to the heart as could be not entertaining any understanding of the mind. So that's another superficial take on it. And how does that relate to the Diamond Sutra? Anybody know? Want to relate that to the Diamond Sutra? Do you get that? So the Diamond Sutra says, A, A, you know, it could be heap of merit, it could be Buddha, it could be Dharma, it could be anything. Anyway, A, A, as not A, is it taught by the Buddha.

[45:16]

Okay? That's what's at. No, it's not grasping. And therefore we grasp. A is not A, therefore it's A. No, A is A. Because A is A, A is not A. A being A means A is not A. And since A is not A, we say A is A. We say A. A is A. Therefore, A is not A. Therefore, we say A. The Diamond Secret does that over and over.

[46:20]

The fact that something is something, the very reason that something is something, is exactly why it isn't something, and that's why we call it something. That's what the Diamond Sutra does over and over. So that's slightly different from this, but it's related. Which part? The logic is A equals A implies... Oh, okay. So there's not grasping. That's the first teaching of the Buddha, right? You have something, Buddha teaches you not to grasp it. And the things we don't grasp, we call by their names, which we don't grasp.

[47:34]

And then there's one more phrase, which is that we don't even have any... So, coming back to the world, okay, without any attachment. So first of all there's detachment, then there's detachment from detachment, And then there's not having any idea about detachment from detachment or not dwelling in detachment. You don't even have an idea about it. This is another superficial thing. Why is it superficial? Because it's just talk. But, and it's not only is it just talk, but it's talk that you want, that you like, that you think is good, that you like. And that's why he told us to go to page 442. When you speak it out, everyone goes into hell.

[48:42]

But only momentarily. Oh, it's liberating. That's pretty close, right there. You didn't get that. Now if I tell you, if I answer the question and you like it, you'll only like it if it's superficial. And the more graspable it is, the more you'll like it. So we have a situation here where we're being told about these three phases and then we're being told what they are

[49:50]

which is really, we're really glad to find out what they are, because before Jackie told us what page it was on, I just told you it was in there someplace. Now she even told you what page. You can turn to that page and look and find it. And there it will be, right on the surface of the page, bouncing off your eyeballs, into your brain, and your brain will have an easy time with it. It's very nice. What page was that again? I just wanted to remember. Do you agree or not agree? I take agreement and disagreement and I put them in a sandwich and I eat them. And then I shit gold for those that want it. Superficially, he's ragging. Listen, any time somebody says he shaves gold, he's ragging.

[50:58]

He's not a banker. Superficially, he's the banker. Yes, Christridge. Amen. Well, a superficial answer to that would be if you attain at the first one, that's Buddha. Yeah. Pardon? Pardon? And the third one? The third one, in some ways, superficially sounds like the best.

[52:04]

Because you don't even have, you're not even thinking about, you know, any attainment. So attaining non-grasping is like being Buddha, right? It could be, superficially. And then not even, you know, not dwelling in that seems like a step beyond Buddha. And then not even having any intellectualization of that seems even beyond that. In some sense, what it's talking about here is getting through these three things. All three seem great. The first one seems very good. The second one's better, and the third one's better, and we're trying to get through all three of them. That's why I kind of, even though I knew, you know, I didn't want to be the one to bring it up, so I appreciate that Jackie was the one who brought up these delicious superficialities.

[53:08]

I would What conclusion? How are you supposed to know that? I didn't say you're supposed to know that. That's what you've been taught by Amy. Well, that's how I was looking at it. So you have Amy to teach you how to take that superficiality and put it together with the other superficialities. So now you have these two superficialities. Amy's is really nice, don't you think? Do you see the three phases of Amy? There's the three phases of Shoshan and the three phases of Amy. And then there's the three phases of Bhajan. So you have all these different three phases.

[54:09]

And we have the Diamond Sutra. We've got all this superficiality. Right? We have abundance of superficialities. It's more than that? Just a second. Did you say more than superficiality? Did you say that? Yeah. Yeah. So there we have it, folks. We think, we in the form of Jackie, think that there's something more than superficiality. She's representing that point of view. Do you actually think there's something more than superficiality? Do you? I think it's more than that. More than just... Okay, you're right.

[55:14]

But maybe somebody else here thinks that there's more than superficiality, too. Like, is there anybody else here who thinks there's more than superficiality? There's Susan, and Craig, and this other Susan. Any other Susan? There's one more Susan here. Where is she? Do you think there's more than superficiality, too? All the Susans, four Susans, they all think that there's more than superficiality. So there you have it, folks. And maybe there's some other people like Barrett. Okay? So I definitely think there's some superficiality. In this case... has like really neat superficialities. Superficialities that sound, I mean, they're just totally so cool. Don't you think so? Huh? They're profound superficialities. Right? They're superficialities which look like more than superficial, right? This is like, what do you call it? High-gloss superficiality.

[56:17]

Like superficiality that's like standing up and saying, You know, don't go any further than me. Because this is like, I'm a superficiality that's beyond, that's more than superficial. Right? And if you don't believe this, then at least you should know there is something even better than me that's beyond this called going through all three of these. Yes? All of you guys are students. That was a very superficial apology. Oh, thanks. They're drooling for superficiality. Anyway, what I wanted to say was this. During the Great Talmud, during the time of these people, the area around a certain area in China where many of their temples, like Shoshan, Shershuang, people like that, it was a quite beautiful area.

[57:47]

a lot of great teachers in this area, really wonderful teachers. It was like, not quite, I'm not going to point you on it, but it was like, you know, it was like, yeah, that's great. That's great. It was like Southern Marin. Anyway, I'm really getting super frustrated. The point is that anyway, that if you can go back there now. On a tour? Hang around the area. Poke around. It's pretty hard. It's kind of dusty and, you know, there's people, you know, riding along with their bicycles.

[58:56]

They don't look very happy. And it's, and there's some pretty areas too, I think, I'd like to see a dust balance. Very late. It's not too good. And the name of this place, it is Diamond. And it's Jingang, which is the same Chinese word for sutra. And if you ask anyone there, how did this place do that state? Nobody knows. That's the superficiality that came to me as I was reading this. Well, nobody had asked me.

[59:58]

There might have been somebody over there, but I asked a lot of people. I asked quite a few people, including the people in the audience. In fact, the country sector is quite beautiful. I don't really want to imply that, but when you go into the cities and markets and that type of thing, it's not. There's not a real strong connection between that and that. I don't think there's a connection. So I'm going to say that wants to .

[61:21]

And that . Well, . Can you grasp anything that's not superficial? What? Try to grasp it. Ignorance is a great gift.

[62:32]

Why not consider ignorance a great gift? I don't see any problem considering ignorance a great gift. Yes, Elizabeth? a reverse superficial understanding of the case, which is that if you can't first pray, you don't need to talk and write. That's why you're a good patron. You don't need any explanation. You just understand that if you can't first pray, you're a teacher, a human god of all souls. Yeah, and that's one of that, so that's another, that's a reverse superficiality, which is also in a sense in the commentary too. that as you go through it gets worse.

[63:52]

However, another story of this superficiality is that the third one is the third phrase or the third stage is not having any intellectualization. So the first one is just non-grasping, but it doesn't say that there's non-grasping and dwelling in non-grasping. It just says non-grasping. The second one is just in case you would dwell in non-grasping, the second aspect is not dwelling in the first one. And the third one is having not even any thoughts about not dwelling in the first one. That's another way, that's another superficiality for you to work with. But the other possibility, and now Elizabeth is bringing up another possibility of just attaining by non-grasping, that's it.

[65:00]

And the other one would be having some teaching about not grasping. And then you could have thoughts about the teachings of non-grasping. And that might go with, you can't even save yourself. The way Baijong taught these three phrases was non-attainment, not dwelling in non-attainment, and not intellectualizing about non-attainment. Not intellectualizing about non-dwelling in non-attachment, non-grasping. And when you hear that, that sounds in some sense In some sense that sounds like a progression. But in another sense it might just be that you have this situation of not grasping.

[66:10]

You have that. And then there's also the possibility of dwelling in it or not dwelling in it. And then there's a possibility of thinking about not dwelling in it and thinking about dwelling in it. So those are five phases. Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. whether it's a metaphor or not, doesn't matter so much, of the time of the and the great teachers.

[67:30]

And how beautiful that looks and how ideal that we attain that and what we think of. And then we come and we try to teach humans. And it's so hard. much harder than that realm because they're a challenge. And then to go into the marketplace is where everything's ruined because we didn't take the teachings. And so then we have to go into the marketplace and see where it leads us. And then, um, and that's the same as the, the attachment on the back of it. It's there and it's blowing, giving it a little space.

[68:34]

But now, I'm trying, trying to hold it together and sometimes it's hard. I thought, well, I'm being superficial, because I thought there was one way. You need to actually be able to pull it out into the storm. But there's two. What are the two you're having difficulty holding? Attachment, non-attachment, everything. and in this one case where it's not this, it's not that, it's going to the middle and not to the experience of... I'm starting to crumble.

[70:03]

I can feel like... You're starting to crumble? I'm starting to crumble. What is that? There's no reason I got in a place where I couldn't fold over and put the two together. I have a question. I have a question. How can it be possible? They've been picking all the fruit.

[72:09]

Pardon? They've been picking what? Yeah. Master. Yes? Are you awake? Wide awake. All day long. Don't let anything fool you. Thank you. I won't.

[73:11]

Master? Yes. Are you awake? Yes. It's easy to imagine Shushan opening his mouth, saying three words, and the entire assembly running out the door. One must have stayed, though, because a monk later asked, at which phrase did you attain? At which phrase did you attain?

[74:38]

At which phrase did you attain? The earth. At which phrase did you attain? At which phrase did you attain? Moon? Moon? Moo? Jackie? I didn't know you were a moo. At which phrase did you attain?

[75:49]

At which phrase did you attain? Lord Arlene. Are you awake? Are you awake?

[77:11]

Yes. At which phrase do you attain Can we go outside? Yes, we can. Queen Liz. Are you awake? Yes. All right, what phrase did you attain? I don't get that one. What part do you get? Right in here.

[78:15]

Anything fooling you? What do you guess? I like that question, that I could feel the experience of how I feel myself and how I feel others. You don't understand so much. But you feel helped by the question? How? Helped how?

[79:24]

By just tuning in to how I'm in the world. Are you awake? What do you say? Are you graspy for understanding?

[80:32]

Yes, but it feels really good when I don't grasp it. It's very nice to have a crystal walk with you. To have it wash over? Is it washing over? Is this like following the waves or cutting off all streams? When I asked the question, did it continue to wash over you or did you try to have something else happen?

[81:55]

You gave up the fun of having it wash over you? For my sake? so you could answer my question? Did you cut off the stream of the confusion washing over you so you could answer my question? Well, do you know less about this koan than at the beginning of the class? Praise Buddha, yes.

[83:04]

Yes, less is more. I appreciate you giving up attachment to this case. It was really a good one. I'm glad you didn't get too, I don't know what, impatient with not being allowed to indulge too much in the superficiality of it. Because it's such a tempting case to do so. And so next week we can try again to see if you can once again get nowhere with this case. You did? I didn't think so. Maybe you're right. But my understanding is very superficial. I'm just dealing with numbers like

[84:14]

You take today's, what's the date today? The 7th? Add 7 to 7, you get 14. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? So on the basis of that, we could have another class. Right? We're supposed to. We're supposed to. Yeah. Superficially, it's set up like that. So we'll just kind of go along with the superficiality one more week, okay? And so, as Jackie pointed out, the answer is on page 442. And there's a great commentary which has all kinds of delectable superficialities. And if you want to test yourself at your Buddhahood, just read the commentary and see if you can read through it without grasping anything, or read through without even any idea of not grasping, or read through without even dwelling in not grasping.

[85:30]

See if you can read through and go through all these different possibilities Also, you can also try not reading through. That's also another thing to do. And see if you can do that without grasping, without dwelling in grasping, with no idea of not dwelling in grasping. Okay? And see if you can do that about everything all week. See if you can get through. If you, you know, not avoid grasping and not dwell in grasping. In other words, don't get into not grasping. Don't get into grasping. See if you can do that. And then also not dwelling in non-grasp and grasping in case you have to have any not grasping happening. Try it out all day long for a week. Try it.

[86:34]

Could you repeat the last suggestion that you gave? I don't remember which the last one was. I think it was try it for a week. Before that. Before that. Does anybody remember the one before that? Not dwelling and grasping or non-grasping. Not dwelling and grasping or non-grasping. Does that sound pretty close? Good enough. We could play the tape back. All day long. See if you can put this case into practice, this superficial, all this superficiality into practice, without looking for anything, you know, less superficial than this profound teaching, which is totally superficial. But therefore profound. Therefore profound? Yes. Therefore we call it profound. We call what profound? The superficial deepness. No, the profound is that there isn't anything that's not superficial.

[87:37]

The superficial isn't profound. It's just that the fact that the superficial is really superficial, that's profound. That situation is profound, but now that I've said it, what I just said was just superficial. But the superficiality of what I just said, that is profundity. Did you see the superficiality in what I just said? That's profound. Right? No, wrong? No. No? OK. Well, again, I'm serious that I really was worried about this case because I personally thought it was really a great case and had, especially the part at the end there which gives you the answers, that that was a really good part.

[88:50]

So I was worried that we were going to get in trouble tonight, but we didn't. And I think, of course, we all wanted to get in trouble, but we didn't. So here you are. Pardon? You're welcome to come again next week and try to get in trouble, but I bet you won't be able to. Just like tonight, nobody got in trouble. Here you are, like, completely like just the way you were when you arrived. Right? You didn't attain anything, did you? Well, yeah, and nothing to attain, and you went along with that, didn't you? I don't know if Arlene did, but... She was... I think Arlene actually did attain something, but aside from Arlene, I don't think anybody else attained anything, did they? Huh? Does the teacher sound disappointed? Does the teacher sound disappointed? Do I sound disappointed?

[89:54]

Do I sound disappointed? You do? Do I know if I feel disappointed? I mean, I can imagine that I sound disappointed. That's easy to imagine. Do you want to know if I feel disappointed? Pardon? No, I'm glad that you told them rather than me. I really am. Because I didn't want to tell him about it because, you know, that would be like a sucker punch. Look at page 442. Go ahead. Look at it. When you said it, I wasn't going to tell him. I couldn't bring myself to tell him because that's my favorite page. If it hadn't been for you. Right? That's why I thank you for saving us from that. Right?

[90:57]

But I myself couldn't, I just couldn't bring myself to stop you guys from the hell that you would have got into without page 442 to save you. I could have, but I didn't think of it. I didn't think of it, honestly. Good point. Now I would suggest that you find somebody who's got the whole book and get them to show it to you so that they can collude in your attempt to get the stuff on page 442, which is like the answers to this koan. which will give you something to really, like, be tempted to get a hold of, because those are the answers. The teacher is disappointed?

[92:00]

That's your final statement on the matter? Thank you for dropping by. Next week... Next week will be our last class in this series, so be sure to arrive for the whole time. By the way, if next week also, next week might go on all night, so bring your toothbrush.

[92:32]

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