So, I just wanted to say something. I don't want to make you feel guilty or sad or anything like that, but I just want to say that some people memorize this These 30 verses. And those who did, I found, could come and talk to me about them. Could sit down and have a chat about them. And say, well, what about this? And I could say, well, what does verse 22 say about that? And they can say, well, it says that. So you see how they relate? So having it available is like having, whenever you look at one, you've got the other ones available to help in your own mind. So I really was impressed. by the fact that almost nobody who came to talk to me, I should put it this way, almost everybody that came to talk to me, about the 30 verses, had memorized it. And nobody that I can think of who didn't memorize it did come to talk to me.

[01:03]

So anyway, I sometimes forget when studying these kinds of texts to tell people to emphasize how important it is to memorize it, but it really helps if you have it in you, if you're studying something like that, because then you can go sit down and see a situation, just, there it is, boop, talk about it. And this class, I offered this class, and we didn't have time to get through it. I studied this class with people at Tulsa Heart during a practice period, and during a two-month practice period, we actually kind of got through it. I hope that it will be of some use to you to be exposed to the text and maybe some other time when we have three months.

[02:05]

We can get all the way through it sometime. Well, I think that the energy, I feel like the energy is breaking up here. And I think the koan class can go on, but I don't sense that there's like enough of a kind of momentum in studying these 30 verses to carry through the rest of the summer. I think maybe like if there was like... two practice periods or something. Like if I started in the fall, offered like a six-week course in the fall, or maybe sometimes we have two classes. Like in the fall here, sometimes we have two classes. If I was going to do that, I could offer two classes maybe. Starting in September, going all the way through December, then I think they would do it that way. But I think I'd need sort of like a group of people that were going to be kind of in a place and want to move around

[03:08]

But some of the people in this class, I would guess, also wouldn't be able to even stay if they offered another class. And if new people came in, you can't really come in very well. It's easier to come into the Koan class, because nobody knows what's going on anyway. Whereas this class, actually, people do kind of know what's going on. I mean, they do learn what the terms mean, and they It is a lot different. And you have to go back over it. In Koen class, you can't go back over it, and you don't have to either. So anyway, there's a difference in this kind of study, in this kind of text. So I'm just saying, you know, In fact, we're going away with this, and there's important things that we're not going to be able to get to.

[04:11]

And I'm kind of sorry about that. Now, who is this? This is my niece. about eight years ago. If you look carefully, you have good eyes, you can see a scar starting right here and going all the way down to there. She had open heart surgery right after she was born. It taught me the meaning of eastern mountains move over the water. Okay, so... The way the text is constructed is that maybe the first, what is it, The first eight karakas talk about these three transformations of consciousness. And then 9 through 14 talked about all the different kinds of mental events that can be projected.

[05:21]

It can be reflected or projected on the surface for the transformation of consciousness called reflection or called thinking or called manas. And then the third transformation can have the idea that those things are out there. And then on that surface are all this list here, from 9 to 14. And then we get to 15. This isn't exactly new, but it's That's what it is. Arising, number 15, arising, the arising of the five forms of consciousness together or separately within the foundational consciousness is like waves in the water.

[06:26]

The manifestation of mental consciousness takes place always except in the sphere of non-perception, in the two attainments, in the state of torpor, occasioned by insensibility, and in the absence of thought. Thus thought involves this transformation of consciousness. For that reason, that which is thus been thought of does not exist, therefore all is mere concept. So let's see if I can use a blackboard. Watch this, OK?

[07:40]

And he was telling me if I keep this away, he'd get to despair, right? consciousness without being transformed at all. There's no way to give rise to, you can't have ideas of self-knowledge. And you can't have a Can't have location or non-location. Can't have identity. So your transformations of consciousness, let's start and start happening.

[08:51]

So the first transformation is that this consciousness become something, this consciousness just transformed in the sense that it's, I'm going to start by saying that there is at this level of consciousness, before consciousness can have self and others, There is . There is consciousness. There is eye consciousness, which is consciousness in relationship to

[09:52]

And then there is a sixth one, which is called mind consciousness, which is mind in relationship aware of. my objects. So six consciousnesses, six organisms, and six, five fields and one object realm, could say six objects. And so there's a pair. There's 18. So there's six objects.

[11:04]

There's six organs. And six conscious organs. The mind organ is called . Sometimes called . And the same that we have in these three transformations. And this is called . The role in many consciousnesses is to name them after the organ. So Chakshya is the ear, or so it's called Chakshya Vidhyana.

[12:06]

How is the sense consciousness related to the sense field? The sense consciousness? relates to the sense field in such a way. Actually, the sense consciousness doesn't relate to the sense field. The sense consciousness relates to the sense objects. The sense organ relates to the sense field. So organs have fields, consciousness have objects. Consciousnesses are separated from their objects, organs. Organs are now separated by the objects. Organs directly contact their feel. They don't have objects. Organs have different relationships with what they work with. Organs have feels. The word for organ in Sanskrit, be shy.

[13:20]

The word for . Bishai means a field or ground. There's a long here. It's to grab onto. This is something you can grab onto. This is someplace you can play. Organs play in a field of object consciousness and grab onto objects. So the mind consciousness is actually mind-organ consciousness. We call it mind consciousness, but it's really mind-organ consciousness. This mind consciousness is what is spoken of in chapter 15 as the foundational consciousness.

[14:27]

Because whenever there's a, whichever one of the five sense consciousness that's operating, also mind consciousness is there too. So this mind consciousness can be understood as the same as a lawyer. And he makes a point that what they usually do is they have six sentences. And then they add on two more. In other words, they take mana, which is already included in the sixth, and they call it the seventh. And they take alaya, which is already in this one, and they call it the eighth. But I agree with him in that the reason why Vosobani talks about these three transformations of consciousness is to explain what these six are doing in another way.

[15:49]

And the reason for talking about the three transformations of consciousness instead of these six is by talking about the three transformations of consciousness, you articulate the process by which the self and elements are developed. Whereas in this presentation of the six, it doesn't explain usually how self and elements are generated. It doesn't explain how consciousness comes to have locations in it and identities in it. So again, originally you have, like I said, originally it's like a river.

[16:57]

And there are no, from our point of view anyway, there are no addresses in the river. An efficient point of view is addressed in the river. Like, they say, I'll meet you over at that so-and-so's house later, you know. And after that, we're going to go down to 33rd and 4th. And then we're going to go over to the park afterwards. And if you tell fish that they live in a flowing river, they'd be shocked. Because they think the river's got all these, you know, housing developments. It's in the water. I'm not talking about, like, Florida. In the water, they can go over to that place. They definitely go to this place, and they go back to that place in exactly the way. Just like fish and birds in the air have addresses, too. For them, there's buildings up there, highways and stuff.

[18:03]

If we told them it's open space, they'd say, what? Shock and frightened. They thought they lost something. But they could tell us that our societies are like rivers, open space. And we'd be shocked if we bleed them. So actually, there is just vast openness. At the same time, their structures can be built into this openness. And locations can be generated, and so on. That has come to be the case. But originally, it's just this flow. And it's supposed to be turned into a room. Or it's going to turn into a palace. So there's maybe something to take. But anyway, you could say that there was this time when materiality interacted.

[19:06]

It's a dialectical, energetic way generated awareness, which is non-located. Mind does not have a location. That's why I can draw the circle, but also I can just draw the rips around the edge of the backward. That works just as well. But also I can just do outside the backward, too. This all works for mine. Mine is not located. However, part of not being located is that you don't have to, like, not be someplace, too. And mine is never not someplace. And in particular, mine is never not associated with a living being is never not associated with sense organs. And sense organs are located. So mind is always associated with things that are located. Even though it's not located, it never decides not to be where the location, because if it wasn't where there were locations, it would be located around the locations.

[20:13]

And so you could say, well, then mine would be like space, wouldn't it? But space doesn't get pushed aside on both sides of things. It's not like, you know, space is all around you. It's not like this space got pushed out of the way by her. It also pervades her, but it's not located. Mine is the same. Mine is like space. That's where space got the idea, but mine got the idea in space. They're cohorts, space and mine. So mine is not located. However, mine can have locations. and it is never apart from locations. Organs have locations. Organs relate to other material objects that have location, and that interaction produces consciousness. And once there's consciousness, consciousness itself can have the ability to be an organ for itself.

[21:23]

So consciousness can split itself into two parts, into two. In early Buddhism, the presentation of six consciousnesses is that consciousness splits up in order in two, but not like two, 50%, 50%, but just in two, like this. Take the tape recorder. I just cut the room. I just cut the world with an arm. That's all. That's what mine can do. It can cut itself. We say bifurcate, but it doesn't mean that there are two equal parts. It just means that one part and another part. Once it cuts itself in half, then it says, OK, this part, the ability to think, and this part, that which thought, case 32, . So the mind has the ability, this consciousness which is generated, which doesn't have a location, can cut itself in half, cut itself into two parts. And one part is the activity, or the ability to think, or the ability to think of something.

[22:28]

And the other part is the capacity to be thought of. Capacity to be thought of are called objects, or the environment. That the ability to think of is called sometimes. That's something called mind. This part that you think of is this mind consciousness, or foundational consciousness. The mula, also called mula, could be grouped for foundation. But it can also be called a light. And that, which is thought of, is called monodhatu or dharmadhatu, which means the realm of mind or the realm of mental objects.

[23:35]

Literally, mind realm or dharma realm means dharma things, means my thing. So this is the early presentation of six vignans. This is the 18 elements. This is the mind element, mind consciousness element. This is the mind object element. And the ability to cut these two parts so the mind can have objects within itself is called the mind object. or the round of the work. So that's the sixth theory. But it just does not explain how you get a cell. It does explain how consciousness can be conscious of something within itself. It doesn't tell you how you get a cell. And it doesn't tell you how you get locations there. Except maybe over here, that could be an object called location.

[24:35]

So they have this other method, which says, OK, now, there's no location. But again, if you would split the mind with monos, using monos now, it's called monos. Doctor, they thought split the mind. And consider now a liar as this monovidinal doctor, and liar as it being And then what's over here, everything over here is concepts of objects. Where do the concepts over here of objects come from? It comes from being reflected in Aaliyah. And how is what, see, over here, what's in the light at the beginning doesn't have location. But when you take this mind and cut it, like this.

[25:43]

So this all amounts. This is all alive, if you know. But when you cut it, it's sort of like, you cut it like this. When you cut it like that, it also means you cut like this. You can say you cut it in half, or two parts, but actually you cut it into one part, which is one particular thing that's getting reflected. One particular thing's being cut out. And then this one particular thing concept is made of this one particular thing. If one particular thing is actually a taboo, among the huge potential of all the things that can be thought of, actually this one particular thing is thought of up there in the universe, and that's because this one particular thing was cut out by man. So man has cut off this little thing, or actually man has cut the consciousness into two parts, meaning one tiny part, and the rest of the possible things that are available in consciousness.

[26:45]

So then the idea is applied here that this is an object, that this is outside. So then it seems to be out here. And by cutting, by Manus cutting here, and [...] cutting here, cutting all the different places, everything in the universe that we're aware of could be taken from mine. However, it also says that this foundational consciousness is a result. In other words, it's from things that have already happened, from experiences that have already happened. Therefore, whenever manas cuts something out, or chooses something, or reflects something, when I say or, that means the same word, it means the same thing. it reflects something. By reflecting something, it chooses something. Whenever it reflects something, it also reflects past experience because this whole steel, this whole foundational consciousness, that the impression of everything that's ever happened

[27:52]

to that time. This whole field is all, every part of this field has causes from the past. It's a result of past experience. So whenever it picks anything, any resultant particle, there is a seed here in the sense that already there is something there that's received. from the past, something being transmitted. So this will be the seed for this concept. The concept will be built and made up of the seed. So mind has the ability to take one of these little sections of the mind, and to separate it out, and to look at it, to have it reflected, and then to say that it's external, and to have the idea that it's an object. But the object is built on past experience. Therefore, the field where this is drawn from has all the seeds that happen.

[28:59]

But it isn't like these things are like these little realities or innate ideas. They're just the latest opportunity being offered by this huge, endless field of consciousness. The latest opportunity. It's not a fixed thing. In the next moment, you will not have the same opportunities available. However, what is available will be conditioned by everything that's already happening. And now they say it's like the waves in the ocean or the waves in the water. And again, you can imagine the reason why he did that was to tell you, not that there's really something there, because imagine the water doesn't have location.

[30:00]

But if you can choose a wave and then make it external, then that could be a location. And that gets the identity. And now you can have the self. This process of reflection and also taking into account path to the past is represented by what's available here for reflection, the past what the past could reflect it. The past is embodied in what's available for reflection. So the past is the seed for what you can do. But what you make is not the seed. And also what you make is not some object that's coming in contact with the organism. So whenever anything happens to the organism, the organism does respond. But the way organisms respond is by turning around, it's by having the manifesting capacity of mind turns around, looks at all the things that have ever happened before, chooses one thing as a guess for what might be going on now.

[31:14]

All the guesses aren't things that have happened before, are the result of things that have happened before. So the results of things that have happened before, those are all the candidates for what might be going on now. So mind does not, mind is not made known to us what's going on now. Life only makes known to us the results of what happened before, because the seeds of every experience are coming as a result of what's happened before. And in addition, we have, in Karaka 15, is that what you're thinking of, what you're thinking of, does not exist. And it doesn't exist in two ways. Number one is that you think it's out there.

[32:18]

You think it's what's happening. It's not what's happening. Except in the sense that it is a concept of the result of what has happened. That has happened. But we don't think of it that way. We don't think that what we're dealing with here is concepts of the result of what's happened. We think that this is what's happening now. We're not even dealing with the past. We're dealing with the concept of the past. We're not even dealing with the results of the past. We're dealing indirectly with the results of the past. We're dealing with the concept of the results of the past. In other words, we're not dealing... anything but the mind itself. Now, that is happening that we're not dealing with anything but the mind itself. That's true. That is happening. It is happening that there is the appearance of what's not there.

[33:20]

But we're not dealing with what's happening. But what's happening is happening and is causing us to scurry around looking for something, for some idea or concept of the results that was happening before. And so the waves on the ocean are like that. But it's not like there really is a mine there, a substantial mine. And then there's a little thing that's happening there. There is a river. And the river is a result of past rivers. And we can pick out a section of the river. We can say that mine can pick out a section of the river and say that that little section of the river, that piece of that little drop of water, that is outside the river. And that's what's happened to the root or to the whole situation. That's the latest event. And in fact, it is the latest event, but we don't understand that. So. What kind of typical question do we see in the past?

[34:26]

Do you mean our collective past, but not this sentient beings as was the past of all? And second, consciousness is... Is it time or division created by consciousness as well? So would it be fair to say that it's actually all things ahead and behind? Because time itself will be a division of consciousness. There's two kinds of time. One kind of time is... It's a time when you do split things up If there's one kind of time where you make time for these things, there is the effects of lots of thinking about time that's been done by all of us for a long time. So that stuff can be selected out and projected out too.

[35:29]

There's that kind of time. That kind of time is segmented. There's another kind of time too, which is not like that. which is a time to understand this process. And that's the actual situation. That's the actual time. That's the time of awakening. It's an authentic experience of time, rather than experience the time where you think that what you're experiencing is a thing called time. But you never experience that kind of way of thinking where we usually think about time is just simply that the issue of time is raised to us for whatever reasons. Something stimulates us and causes us to consult the concept of time. And the concept of time is made from many, many possible seeds you could have, which are the result of that experience that you choose from to come up with the idea of time. Then time is just another one of these concepts.

[36:29]

So there is no such thing as that kind of time. But there's another kind of time. OK. Just like there's another kind of, all the things you think that are going on, there's another kind of weakness that actually is happiness. So what is time? Time is actually that this is happening. Time is the way you're actually functioning. That's what time is. Mind is not a thing that reflects what's happening. Mind is a thing that responds to what's happening and creates a world in response to what's happening. I'm not saying there isn't a world. But in a way, there probably isn't. I would think fairly likely there isn't a world. But whether there is or not, I don't want to get into it. I just want to say that we, in response to what's happening, make a world. Just like originally there was a river. For us, a river is not a world.

[37:32]

Just like if you tell the fish that they live in a river, or if you tell the birds that they live in vast space, they think you're nuts. If you tell people they live where there's not a world, they think you're nuts. But that's because people have, in response to what's happening, which is as different from what we think as if you tell fish that lives in the river. It's as different for us. What's actually happening is probably as different for us as our description of the fish's world would be for the fish. In other words, if we found out what was actually going on, we would be totally shocked. I mean, we would just be shaken, to say the least. Unfortunately, or unfortunately, we're not built to deal with what's going on through the way we usually deal with things. The way we usually deal with things is to convert what's going on into a world like this. And the way we do it is by consulting past this field of impressionable stuff for what might be going on.

[38:46]

So something will . And she just consults that thing and comes up with another world. And no matter what I do, she's going to come up with the world. If I get too wild, she's going to make a really different world from the one she's made before. just going to say, well, I guess boys are girls, or girls are boys, or something like that. But basically, you're just going to keep switching the elements around and coming up with world after world, world turning inside of the world. Mantas are going to become nice people. Mantas are basically going to be doing the same thing over and over because you have to use the same stuff. The stuff will evolve if you keep changing your world around. That will cause an effect. And then after that, the stuff because salt will be different. The process of consultation will go on as usual. And you'll never actually turn outside your mind to try to find out what's happening. You're not built to do that. You're only built to look at your mind to try to find out what's going on.

[39:50]

We can solve the mind to find out what time is. But people think that time's not your mind. So if you go into your mind, you kind of go into your mind and say, well, actually, it's 8.15, but I'm just changing now to 8.30. You can't do that anymore. But actually, that's exactly what you do to come up with that. And you can try to do it in a different way, and you might be able to. And some people do. They'll come up with a different version than they did before. Just like you now feel this way, but just like you didn't feel that way when you were a kid before you learned how to talk. You didn't feel that way. But people keep making you look at the clocks, look at the clocks, look at the clocks. Pretty soon you start getting into this thing. You start having these experiences, and pretty quickly you look up and you think, It's 8.30 now. And you say, well, it's 8.30 in the morning, 8.15 in the morning, or 8.15 in the night. You have experiences about what you tell kids. You know, you should get up at this time, so on and so forth.

[40:56]

So you blah, blah, blah. And after a while, when they consult for time, the result of experiences, they come up with, that on there, they feel a certain way about time. Move the hand there, change the lighting up there, tell them what they've said this time, give them that information, and what do they do with it? Come back with the idea of time. That's not time, that's your mind. And the idea of time is nothing but that. So it follows the same rules as the mind, because we have no other way to process it. However, there is another kind of time which is as different from that kind of time as the real world is from the world we make up. And that kind of time is very important, that that kind of time is awakening. Just like the way this mind actually works is awakening, and the way things actually are is not that they're like that, but things

[41:58]

And not like that at all, really what we're dealing with is not things, but ourself. When you understand that, you understand what those things are. Namely, those things are not your mind. Those things are not your mind. Those things are, you know, not your mind. We have those things. We have no way of knowing. We only know our mind. What we think those things are is our mind. What we think the world is is our mind. And if there is another world, It's called Buddha's world.

[42:59]

And nobody knows that. And if it comes at us, we will never stop tolerating it. We'll never stop responding to it in a way other than making up a worldly response to it. So what is thought of it? It's just a concept. Everything we think of, our ideas of time, our ideas of self-knowledge, are just concepts. That's all we are. So that's Carcass 17.

[44:08]

So I think that, you know, I could jump ahead and foreshorten the rest of the text in some kind of way for you, but I think it's better just to sort of like chew on this for a while and try to make a world out of what I just did. Remember, that's what we're doing. What I actually did is not what you're doing with it. And yet I really was there doing that stuff. But you're not going to let that sit there. So watch yourself and make us into a world. Yes? Well, I just have a question about doing. Is doing also a concept? No. There is a concept. concept, but aside from that definition, there also is something, you know, which is not the concept, which predates the concept, but that too is just a concept.

[45:39]

So, and that's what I'm really wondering about, is karma. And there's not a utility point. And I think that these are both kind of What is karma really? Karma is an illusion which is created out of the pattern of this process of interpretation. Every time you make one of these interpretations and have one of these concepts out there, That the mind creates within itself a certain kind of, that has a certain effect, a certain structure. And the structure of that effect is the definition of the action. And then you can make that into an external object that you think of and have a concept of, and that's what you think you're doing.

[46:39]

And that's how karma is built up. That's how the world is. And that has an effect. And then when the next time something happens, you consult that effect, which is an image of past action, which never really happened, but you thought, past thinking. And you consult that. So the past thinking, that there was action, is now a basis or a seed for present thinking of what you're doing. And this way, we make a world out of the images of what we've done in the past. The way we've imagined things in the past had a certain pattern. That pattern is the definition of whatever we do or whatever we did. And now because we thought that way in the past, we will now have that stuff available to us to think in the future. So in fact, we can't be aware of anything that's happening now. We just keep consulting the past.

[47:47]

Not the past, but the results of the past. And not only that, but what? I forgot what I was going to say. Yes. What an analogy is, if you sit down and read the newspaper, it becomes a world, but yet it's just the news, or it's just written words, and it's like somebody else's interpretation of events, and it's all in the past. It has some kind of relationship to the actual events and places, but it's your second hand, and it comes afterwards. constructs. Is that kind of an analogy of what the mind does?

[48:48]

Thinking that it's a real video, it's all the news and how it's a really different event. If you're actually there and you're worried about it later, you can always see how it's... Yes, it is. Everything in the world is an analogy of what I just said. The world is just simply analogies for this. That's all it is. Analogies... Or language, the world is just language for this process. Everything's repeating this. And it's all just concept. The school's called just concept. Everything that's happening is just concept, including what I just said. This whole presentation is just concept, too. Yes? It seems that everything is subjective. There's nothing that's really objective. You talk about science, that science is objective, but it seems that everything is subjective.

[49:52]

No. The mind has within itself a subjective and objective capacity. The mind is not without the ability to say that something is outside itself. But also in addition to that, there is no denial here that there is something outside mind which affects organisms. So within the mind, if you want to call subjective that which is in the mind, even then I wouldn't say it's all subjective. But what people ordinarily consider as subjective and objective is really a dance within our own consciousness. And that's subjective. Well, if that's your definition of subjective, is that mind is subjective, then... Well, everything is projection.

[50:56]

Not everything. No, everything is... Everything is point of view. Everything is projection. No, because something is affecting us. We are being affected by something which is not projection. We do have direct experience. That's not projection. You're affecting me. You're not just a projection. But what I think you are is a projection. But you're not my projection, as you know. You have another life, you know, and that's part of what's wonderful, is that you're not my projection. And that's, and I even have a problem that you're not my projection. I mean, you know, if you're my projection, you'd be totally under control. I don't know what I'd do with you, but, you know, I have some ideas, but basically, I have some ideas. Who knows the two levels of truth that, the ultimate truth and the relative truth, which would be simultaneously?

[51:57]

I don't know if those two you're talking about are the two, but there are two levels that exist simultaneously. But the ultimate truth is not that there really is something out there, because there isn't really something out there, because something out there is affecting us. It's not just sitting out there. It's affecting us. It's not really out there either. I mean, what we're aware of is not out there at all. But also the things that are out there that are affecting us that we're not directly looking at, they're affecting us too. So they have a relationship with us too. So our mind is something like what's out there because in our mind there's a relational thing going on. And outside of our mind there's things that are in relationship to our mind. So there is some connection to that out there. It's just that what it is, never do we actually look at it for our experience. We never look at it. We always look back at what's happened to us before. We never look at it. However, there is a level of our consciousness which does look at it.

[53:03]

That's also going on. There's a level at which we are directly dancing with something out there that we don't know about. We're into it with that thing out there. We are actually into a relationship with each other that we do not know about. Those are those sense consciousnesses. In a sense consciousness there is no concept of object. However... Simultaneous with the sense consciousness is a mind consciousness which converts those sense consciousnesses into objects and then there is a mind consciousness which knows the things which the sense consciousness doesn't. But there is something outside the sense consciousnesses too which isn't the consciousness which is a material thing. Materiality is actually being posited but what it is is a total mystery from the point of view of knowing because you can never know materiality. Because we don't leave it alone. We do not do that. We always convert it into a concept.

[54:07]

And then we know that. Simultaneously, we wouldn't be making this conversion into our world, our dreamt-up world. We wouldn't be making this conversion. It wasn't happening. at some other level. It's because we're being stimulated by actually sensory, direct sensory experience, that we keep running back to our mind to try to figure out what's going on. I am out here. I actually am over here, I'm telling you that. But you don't know what I am. But you do have a relationship with me even though you don't know what I am. You have a direct relationship and I with you. And it's unmediated by concepts. And therefore, it's not known. It's not mediated by concepts, but in response to it, I go to a world where I will now

[55:11]

make up a world where I will mediate with concepts, because I'll just say, I don't want to deal with that, and I go back in my little workshop, and I bring out some concepts, and I use my concepts to mediate with my mind, and I live in that world. That's the world I live in, in terms of knowing something. But in the meantime, there's an unmediated world going on simultaneously. Actually, it's already gone. I just missed it. And now, after it's over, I go back to my workshop and come up with a reality of what happened. But at the same time I'm doing that, new information comes crashing in, and then I'm going to go, no, next moment, try to take care of that. So the mind organ, the thing that splits the consciousness, is actually the sense consciousness that just passed. Ultimate reality is this whole schmear. And this whole smear is that everything is so interrelated that you can't get a hold of anything.

[56:19]

And everything's helping everything so thoroughly and being helped by everything else so thoroughly that everything is just kind of like going, you know, wow. It's just, you know, it's bigger than both of us. Totally ungraspable. There's a realm where you can grasp things, and this is how you grasp them. In the realm of grasping, you can have self and other, you can have knowledge, you can have pancakes, you can have anything you want. And then there's another realm where there aren't any wants. Or stuff's just happening. Boom, boom, boom. And then there's a relationship between those two realms. And then there's a relationship between the living being and what's happening. And then there's a relationship between all the other living beings happening to each other. And everything like that is just totally ungraspable. And we're totally affecting it and being affected by it. We're embracing it, being embraced by it. But nobody can grasp it.

[57:22]

But you can make graspings in some subsets, and the subset we make the grasping in is the world. This whole world is the realm where you're grasping things. So the realm, the tiny little realm where you're able to grasp things, able to dream of grasping things, the tiny little world is the same size as the universe that you know. It's called the known universe. That's the realm where you grasp things. plenty going on there, and that's like, you know, it's built up of zillions of tiny little specks of what's going on in a given moment. And with taking these tiny little specks, and every little speck you take is the results of all the past speck-taking. It's not the results of all the past things that have actually happened. in their reality, but it's a little speck of all the past dreamings.

[58:25]

And we build a universe out of those. Perfectly good universe. It's a total dream, though. It's just simply all mere concept. And any little section of you think about it moment by moment is just concept. And this presentation is just concept, too. Yes. The place of, let's say I'm out of deep France, or I'm in some kind of a psychic state where I'm in a psychic institution, and then they say that I will understand other people in the same state I know, or going under hypnosis. It's an analogy of what I'm talking about.

[59:42]

You just did it. You just consulted your past experience of the stuff you're talking about. You just thought about it, and now you talk to us about it. And now you want me to talk back to you, and I am. But I'm saying it this way rather than another way. So I'm not going out, I'm not talking to you as though there were something out there that you're talking about. I'm referring you back to the process I just told you about. Now, I'm actually serious that what you're saying is just what I've been talking about, but that doesn't allow you to actually put anything outside that we're talking about. I'm referring you back to the process by which you generated your questions. rather than pretending like there's something called what you were just talking about that actually is out in the world called people in states or people hypnotizing each other.

[60:51]

The way you conjured up that speech which you just uttered was by consulting your memory about stuff like hypnosis and mind states and trances and stuff like that. However, here's a mere concept for you. I'm going to make some noises now and you're going to get a mere concept. You're going to get a bunch of concepts. And it's coming out of this text. In certain states of trance, you won't be able to do this. You won't be able to do this process. This thing will break down. However, you won't be able to do anything. You won't be able to have hypnosis or trances either. You want people to think about or know about anything. You just can turn the whole system off for a while. And then as soon as the effects of that, the obsessions and compulsion was caused this effect called the trance, as soon as it's over, it'll be like the next moment, you know, it'll be like going, and then you're like, that's what it'll be like to you. Even though you have been breathing the whole time, observers would have been saying you grew up, you know, 10 minutes older or a week older, you will feel like you just inhaled and now you're exhaling.

[61:59]

And then the question is whether people in those trances actually age less than the people who are watching them. It would be that kind of study that eventually happened. But if you're not in the trance, then when you talk about trances, what you're doing is you're consulting what you know about trances, which are the result of what you heard about in the past, and how you converted what you heard based on what happened to you before, and you built up some history and some information about trances and hypnosis, and that made you able to stop talking to me about it just now. However, You presented, I think, consulting my experience with people, I think that the way you put that, you wanted to talk to me about that as though there was something other than you just consulting your own brain, and I responded by talking about the way you came up with that information and told you it was like what I was talking about, so then you couldn't talk to me about those things anymore because I wasn't entering into that kind of conversation as though there were something outside of what you just consulted.

[63:04]

And I could talk faster than that, too. Because it's, you know, it's just going on. And I'm just telling you how it works. However, when I talked to you that way, I was talking a little bit as though you were out there, and I was telling you about what happened to you, but actually I was referring to what is happening inside me, and that's why I have confidence, because I can't talk about you, all I can talk about is me, so I'm just telling you about myself. And what I'm telling you about myself is that you can't do anything different than me. And for all of us, nobody can do anything different than we can do. That's the way we're built. Nobody can do anything more complex than we're doing. Because we cannot, we just can't think of that. And vice versa, when we get close to somebody, we actually can imagine that their mind is as complex as ours.

[64:13]

We can think people are smarter than us, but the way we think they're smarter than us is in terms of what we think smarter than us is. Not in terms of the way they actually are smarter than us. Just our world of they're smarter than us is what we come up with. And we can do that. But the way they're smarter than us, nobody knows. Even they don't know. They also consult their own ideas of how smart they are to figure out how smart they are. However, there is a thing called hasmarteya, which is outside and is happening to them all the time. And this is all, everything that's happening here is nothing but concept. There's nothing to it. What I'm saying here does not exist. But it doesn't mean something doesn't exist. It means what I'm talking about is not... I'm not talking about anything.

[65:20]

I'm just telling you what I'm thinking. And you're all doing the same thing. That's Karaka 17. That's the conclusion of Karaka 17. Yes? Oh. Concepts. that revealing are the concepts of results of what has happened in the past. So, what has happened in the past, can anything new happen? New things are happening all the time. And that's why we don't stop this activity. If things would stop happening, we could rest But we're so sensitive and responsive to what's going on that we don't just sit there and let it happen. We get so excited, we run back and do what we know how to do. Because we don't want to just sit there like, you know, like Van Gogh said, finally, I'm not powerless before nature.

[66:27]

We do want to respond because what's happening to us is creating us. So we want to come back at it with something. But the way we're built is we come back with not old stuff, but the new, grand spanking new results of the old stuff. The results are fresh. They're present. Old results are not results. Old results are causes for present results. And we don't consult old results. They're gone. We got brand new results to work with here. And we relate to the new results in response to the new happenings. And there are new happenings and new results. We actually do have a nice, fresh, spanking new life. And because we do, and because we're alive, we don't just sit there like bumps in the log in relationship to what's happening.

[67:32]

We respond. But the way we respond is by saying, looking back this way. So when it says no coming, no going, no decrease, no decrease? Yeah. This fresh friends making results are There's no equity, there's just little combinations of... But one way that it is, is you have a brand new story or image or concept of coming. It's not actually a coming. It's an idea, it's a concept of the results of thinking that there was coming before. You thought this before, you thought you had to decide, you can think of something coming You can have the idea of coming as an object. But it's not actually... That doesn't exist.

[68:34]

That coming doesn't exist. There is no coming. You just made a coming out of something that has happened, out of the results of something in the past. And there's probably... We have some feeling like... there was probably in the past some other result that we made another concept out of, like coming. So probably in the past we've also had ideas of coming. Because, you know, kind of like, well, there's a sutra over there and they wrote that down. So maybe sometime in the past people also had the idea of coming. And if they thought of coming, they had a concept for coming, they wrote down the word coming, so now when something happens to me, because I thought of coming before, I can think of it again. But it's not because this thing's happened to me now. It's because it happened to me before. And I can make a concept of it so I can know it. But the concept is what I know.

[69:35]

I don't know the coming. So there really is no coming. That thing I'm thinking of, the coming I'm thinking of, doesn't exist. It doesn't mean there is no coming. Really. This is talking about what's really happening. Who knows? So the sutra is pointing to what is happening rather than our concepts of the result. The sutra is pointing to what is happening other than No, not necessarily. It could be pointing to the result. It could be pointing to how we interpret the result. It could be pointing to the fact that what we're dealing with in terms of coming and going is mere concept.

[70:41]

It could be saying all the comings and goings you're dealing with are just concept. Therefore, what you're thinking about, when you walk around this world, you've got your comings, you've got your goings, you've got your increases, you've got your decreases. Of course you do. You've got your purifications and cleanings up. You have your birth and death. You've got that stuff in your world. Sure you do. Well, there's none of that. because those things that you're thinking of for all this stuff those are just concepts those don't exist they're just concepts okay now it doesn't say there actually is no coming out there outside your thing it's just saying however if you start talking about that then the same thing in a different way will be established that there isn't any of that either however simultaneously there is coming and going too. And you should say that. It's confusing. Partly because we're obliged to talk in concepts of talking about the realm of no concepts or talking beyond concepts or

[71:56]

We don't have a language to conduct that conversation. But what's referred to as sutra is what this text refers to as the devolution or transformation. Transformation is the word in this translation. There is a word for it. Not the manifestation of this consciousness or the dispersal of this consciousness. Which one are you talking about, the alaya or the foundational consciousness? Yes. Well, on the basis of your lecture today, it seems you're denying the differentiation between Alaya and mental consciousness. You're creating an equation between and Alaya.

[72:58]

So that's made it yet more difficult. Well, you notice what the... Both the first and the second transformations, the Alaya Vishnirga and the Mata Vishnirga, are dissipated in the state of Arhat Shri or in the super-manda... There's a slightly different thing that they're saying in this part than the other part about what happens to this consciousness. Okay? Um, I equated, what I just said to you was not right in terms of differentiating between, um, mono-vijjana-datu or the foundational consciousness and laya. What I should have said was, are you talking about the, um, The third transformation of consciousness is not alaya or monoviginal adatta.

[74:04]

So what I meant was, are you talking about the foundational consciousness alaya, or are you talking about the third transformation of consciousness just now? When you say devolvement, are you talking about, which one are you talking about? In other words, the Mano-Visnana Datu is not the same as the third transformation of consciousness. The third transformation of consciousness is a way of talking about what's happening in consciousness in order to explain this concept-making, this self and other thing, right? Right. Well, I think that the Sutra, I understand you're talking about the Heart Sutra. So I think that the Heart Sutra, if I understand that correctly, is talking about a state in which this third transformation of consciousness is present, but there is a devolvement of the alive vishnirma and monotip vishnirma.

[75:19]

But there is still capacity for forming concepts. But there is some shift or change in direction in the such that the concepts, the process of conceptualization is non-identical with those transformations. the process of what is non-identical with what of conceptualization is not identical with the transformation process. That is to say, the distance is seen, there's a perception of distance between the conceptual function of third transformation and the first and second transformation process. There's a recognition up this distance.

[76:26]

I think, perhaps I'm mistaken, but that's the situation, that's the attainment that's described, I understand to be described, in the Prasya-Paramita heart syndrome. The way I understand is that the Arhad ship described here where there's a devolvement of a laya, is not the same as the attainment spoken of in this scripture here. I think the attainment that's spoken of in this scripture here is the same as the attainment in the Heart Sutra. You agree? So what are you saying? Anything different? So why did you bring up this thing about arhatship and the devolvment of a layah? was trying to respond to a question he was raised, that basically what I wanted to say is that no coming, no going

[77:40]

It is not describable in terms of the operation of past moments and past events, processing of past. I think it bespeaks a state or a state mind or a state attainment or condition in which there is no coming and going in the same sense that there is no objectification of past. I don't think so, because what you just said makes there be a Dharma by which this thing happens. And I think this process does not depend on anything like that being set up.

[78:46]

I think there can be objectification of past. In other words, past or the results of past, either one you want to do, gets made into a concept of an object. That can happen. And as long as that happens as such, the process of completion or the process of attainment as described here can still happen from the perspective of where this imagination of the reality of the situation is separate from the concept. And in that situation, there's no coming or going. One can say that. That was the sense of me. That was what was bringing out sense of distance over the... Yeah, but the distance... I know, but the way you said it sounded like you were saying there's no objectification. You said there was no objectification of object. There can be objectification of the object or objectification, in other words, conceptual objectification.

[79:51]

There can be that. There can be reification of the object. Yes, there can be reification of the object. Or there can be reification and there can be the concept of the object. And there's a separation there, right? Okay? But there still is reification of the object. Because there's a concept of it. A concept is a reification of an object. But there doesn't have to be then a belief or a reification of the concept. Those can be separated. And then, if this is called coming, then there isn't any substantial existence to this coming, so you can say no coming. Is that what you're saying? However, and that is going on right now. It isn't like you have to pull these things apart

[80:56]

and not make the concept of coming into something that's happening. You don't have to pull your ability to do that away from there. That's already going on. And that is called mastery in this text. However, there is also what is going on right now is there is an overlap. You're saying both Both are going on at once. In other words, there is delusion and there is enlightenment. It's not like there's delusion and then there's enlightenment. There is delusion and there is enlightenment. There is delusion and there is enlightenment. Right now. Also, but from the point of view of there is enlightenment, namely this, when they're not overlapping from this point of view, there is no delusion and there is no enlightenment. Because from this point of view, the thing called delusion and enlightenment, there is no coming or going either.

[82:01]

There's no coming or going. There's no practice. There's no delusion. There's no enlightenment. There's no birth. There's no death. All of these are concepts. And there is enlightenment when there's no substantial realities given to those. But that's happening right now. In fact, the fact that no substantial reality has been given to those things is enlightenment, and that's happening right now. There is enlightenment right now in that no substantial reality is given to those concepts. So there's enlightenment. And there is also going on right now Substantial reality is given to those. So there is delusion and there is enlightenment. However, from the point of view of not giving substantial reality to things, there isn't enlightenment, there isn't delusion, there isn't birth, there isn't death. But from the point of view, and from that point of view, okay, from that point of view, that there isn't substantial reality to those things, that there is no enlightenment, from that point of view, that point of view is enlightenment.

[83:28]

So from the point of view of enlightenment, there is no enlightenment. And also, from the point of view of enlightenment, there is enlightenment. But from the point of view of the non-substantiality or the non-overlapping, there isn't enlightenment. But it is also enlightenment to say there is separation, so there is enlightenment. Sorry, just to correct... I think that people are in a state that it might not be a good idea for you to do that in this group, but I might be wrong. It looks like people are checking out. But am I wrong? Are you ready for him to do this or what? I think it's kind of like we're losing the group here, Stuart.

[84:32]

That's my feeling. And nobody wants to be the one to admit it. It's okay because it's not really that way. This is just my, you know, dreaming about it. He's consulting his past etiquette. Yes? Reification? Well, the evolvement's in this text. And another word that's used is dissipation. But basically it's talking about in a sense that in the state of our hardship, there's a transformation of the results that you're working with are transformed in our hardship.

[85:45]

You're like in a different ballpark and your material becomes transformed. So, you know, you're handling, in a sense, non-toxic material, less toxic or non-toxic material. All the juice has been sucked out of them, so you don't have certain kinds of problems anymore. But the mastery that's spoken of in this text applies to that situation, but also in the situation where you're handling... Well, eventually, you want to call it total catastrophe living or whatever, full toxic living. And where you can actually appreciate this separation between the reification of this toxicity, which you're interpreting from past information, you don't have to change your material in order to not be fooled for the bodhisattva.

[86:47]

That's why this is considered to be the state of accomplishment or state of perfection, because you can handle any kind of crap that gets thrown at you. You don't have to be in a really good neighborhood to be awake. Whereas arhats are in a really nice neighborhood. That's why their enlightenment is personal. It doesn't look for other people. They can help other people, though, to also attain personal liberation. But there are certain people that cannot help because these people cannot do anything in the neighborhood of the practices that they do. So, you know, ahads may need people to become monks and nuns in order to be able to give them any instruction. Bodhisattvas could conceivably help people who have not yet become monks and nuns. They still have to do this fundamentally the same practice, but they can handle higher levels of, you know, whatever you call it, more intense confusions.

[87:55]

than the Arhats maybe would be willing to deal with. Handling intense confusion means dealing with a wide variety of people sometimes. And there is a tendency among all of us sometimes to want to simplify the situation and just practice with men or women or something like that, or mature people. ugly people or pretty people or something like that, to simplify the complexity and therefore reduce the intensity of the confusion. This book, this text, is not about reducing intensity of confusion. This book is about, okay, got this confusion? Understand that everything you're thinking about doesn't exist. Because it's not that it isn't there. It's that you make it into a concept. And what you're thinking of is just a concept. It's not that thing out there.

[88:57]

And this is very similar to what we're doing in the Koan class, the meditation we're doing in the Koan class. It's very similar to switch from thinking that you're perceiving things that are out there to understanding that everything comes, and then you make a you. See, it's a pretty similar thing. Everything happens, but you don't just sit there, you make a you, you make a self. In response to protect yourself, and so you make a self, you've got a world. Because when you get self, you get the elements, which is the world. Make self, zappo. But actually what happens is something happens, And that makes it possible to make a self because it stimulates you to consult. And then you make a world. And this all happens very rapidly. Basically, you know, like that. Boom, boom. And then boom, boom. And then boom, boom. And then boom, boom. Well, it is two in a sense of something happens to you and then you interpret it.

[90:11]

And then, actually it should be, it should be, you say boom-boom. Boom-boom. No, say boom-boom. It's a little slower. Okay, so you say boom. Not slower, say slower. Slower. Boom-boom. Boom-boom. Boom-boom. So it's like boom, and then interpretation, but when the interpretation happens, there's a boom again, and then interpretation. So something's coming in while you're trying to cope with what just happened. But you're not really coping with what just happened, you're coping with what's the result of what just happened right now. And simultaneously, something else is coming in, you're knocking the door, and it is affecting you, but you don't have time to interpret it. Well, that's what it should be like, you see. That's what it should be like. What was going on in my head during this evening was I think what I'm consulting in myself as I'm coming up with what's happening to the people in this room is exactly what I'm talking about and they're being thrown into this process and they're feeling like they're at sea and that's what it's like.

[91:29]

And But usually we try to keep things so we don't realize how we're struggling to interpret it in terms of our own terms. So when you're barely able to keep up with it, it means you're starting to get closer to the process. And the discussion should push you until finally you actually are starting to get in to feel like you notice what's going on with yourself and how you're doing this. You should be able to catch yourself at this. the reasoning, the Dharma, the teaching, starts coming into you, you know, so that you start to feel some relationship to, you know, what's going on with you and the Dharma. And it starts to become something that you notice you don't think that way. But then you start to notice the tension between the fact that the way you do think and the way the Dharma thinks, and as you start to notice the difference, you're getting into it. And you start thinking, well, I don't think that way.

[92:30]

I do think that there's things out there. While the Dharma's going, knock, knock, you know, it's not out there. And you think, well, I do think it's out there. Knock, knock, it's not out there. You see this struggle between yourself and you're starting to work with the Dharma. And you kind of like say, well, just stop the Dharma for a while and let me go back to my thing. The Dharma goes, knock, knock. And you're into it, you see. But now the class is over, so you're free. Amen. You can't. No.

[93:08]

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