I would like to begin by saying that I give up any elegance of my talk this morning because I have too many things I'd like to talk about. So excuse if it's slightly scattered and I jump from one realm to another. Please try to stay with me. First, I'd like to mention that You may have noticed that after I talked about patience on the last day of sesshin, that night the reading from the sutra was about patience. And I didn't know that beforehand. It was not a set-up to get Buddha to back me up by his strong recommendation of patience. One of the things I want to say additionally about that is that patience not only helps us settle into our situation and sets up the practice of enthusiasm and concentration and wisdom, but in particular in the final development of patience,

[01:09]

after we've used it to protect ourselves from anger and get ourselves settled, the final highest patience is the patient acceptance that nothing happens, which is the patient acceptance of nirvana, patient acceptance of ultimate truth. And at the end of... For example, in the Samadhi Nirmocana Sutra, at the end of the section on... I believe in the end of the section, Ultimate Reality, it talks about these various attainments, and at the end, the last attainment is 75,000 bodhisattvas obtain the patient acceptance of non-production. It turns out that ultimate truth is very difficult to accept and be patient with, because it includes that you didn't happen and are not happening. The other thing from the readings on the sutra is is when the Buddha was talking about, I think he talked about guarding the senses, and sometimes speak of restraining the senses, and that always didn't make sense to me.

[02:22]

How can you restrain your senses? It didn't seem natural. But then a while ago I saw the Sanskrit for restraining the senses, and it means It doesn't exactly mean restrain, although that's one definition of it. It's sombria, sombra could also be translated as training the senses or disciplining the senses. So guarding, restraining, disciplining, training. It really doesn't mean training the senses exactly. It means training the whole sense process. It's really training your response to your sensations is what it is. So the Buddha's teaching of in the seeing there will be just the seeing, that's an instruction on training the senses or guarding the senses. In the tasted there will be just the tasted and so on.

[03:23]

In the thought. That's an instruction on restraining the senses. It doesn't mean stop them. It means understand how they work. by letting them... by trying to get to the point where they're just what they are in reality. So this... When he was talking about restraining the senses in the sutra, that's what we've been talking about, actually, from an early time. So that's... And also, Bodhidharma's instruction, make your mind like a wall, is also... instruction, a yogic instruction on how to discipline your sense process so that when you sit outside, you know, no involvement or outside, don't activate the mind around objects, that's instruction on restraining or training your sense process so that even those objects that are arising in the conventional world

[04:32]

You train your response in such a way that you can actually let them show you reality. You don't go into reactive mode. You stay steady and see deeply into the nature of the process. That's what making your mind like a wall is. And it's another example of training the senses. And Prajnatara, Bodhidharma's teacher, when he says, breathing in. I don't dwell in the realms of body and mind. Again, that's instructions in training the senses. So first it protects you from desire, that training. But then after you're protected from the desire and you continue, it opens up the possibility of the miracle of vision, miracle of seeing, miracle of tasting. So, you know, Restraint sounds cold and, you know, whatever, but it's really like, you know, to learn the miracle of the sense process.

[05:45]

When you see the miracle of sensation, you no longer fall into desire. You're already satisfied with the miraculous process of sensation. Do I know the root of it? No. No. I don't, but I'll find out. And you will too. Okay. So those are two things I wanted to mention that aren't directly related to the forward motion here. And another thing is, again, before we go into the trees, another view of the forest. Kind of Another view of the forest. Now, a little history of this practice period, one history of this practice period. As I remember, early on I brought up the issue of ultimate truth. Is that right? Even beforehand I warned you that this might be brought up.

[06:51]

Is that right? Do you have a similar memory? Okay. But then, and I also mentioned earlier that, you know, Zen focuses on ultimate truth or ultimate meaning, has a kind of reputation for that. And Zazen is focusing on the totality of what's going on, the ultimate truth. But then fairly quickly I brought up the truth of worldly conventions Because even though I brought up the ultimate truth first, really, we have to be grounded in conventional reality before we can go very deeply into ultimate truth. We can maybe say the word, but before we start actually giving the teachings of ultimate truth, we need to be familiar with conventional truth. So we started studying two truths. And...

[07:52]

So I thought, actually, and I've thought this before, I didn't mention it, that this little thing we went through here is like recapitulating Zen Center's history, in a sense. When many people come to Zen Center, at least in the early days of Zen Center, too, there was a lot of emphasis on ultimate truth. I think many people are... I was attracted to Zen Center and many other people were attracted to Zen Center through hearing about stories of conventional truth of the bodhisattvas, Zen monks and other bodhisattvas acting in the world of birth and death in compassionate ways. But then when we started studying Zen there was emphasis on ultimate truth. So, at the beginning of Zen Center We chanted the Heart Sutra. That's all we chanted, Heart Sutra.

[08:55]

Not only that, but we did it three times. That was our service. Not only that, but we did it in Japanese, which helped. We started with the Heart Sutra. As I mentioned before, it really, you know, it really... Because the Heart Sutra says, no heart, no birth, no death, no suffering, no eyes, no ears. We start with that ultimate teaching of the Heart Sutra. Nothing happens, there's no nothing in emptiness. We went along very nicely like that for a number of years, just like we went along here for a few minutes. with the ultimate truth.

[09:56]

But then gradually we started to look at conventional truth more. And people were surprised to hear about it to some extent. Why didn't we hear about this before? Some people said. Why don't we emphasize bodhisattva vows? Why don't we emphasize taking refuge in the Triple Treasure? Why don't we emphasize loving-kindness? Why don't we emphasize the precepts? Well, because we're emphasizing ultimate reality. That's why. So then, for the last several years, maybe, I don't know what, for several years anyway, maybe 15, something like that. We've been giving more attention to precepts and precepts in the conventional world, you know, what we do to each other as separate beings in the world of separation and suffering, how to not harm, you know. When I first came to Zen Center, we never heard the word non-dairy.

[11:00]

laughter We knew about vegetarian. We heard that, you know. And so Tassajara was one of the popular reasons for Tassajara. One of the reasons why Tassajara was popular was because it was vegetarian. And the macrobiotics was big in the late 60s. So people came here to get their brown rice. We didn't really know about non-dairy yet. And so the people at the Kendo Zen Center were not so interested, aside from that, were not so interested in conventional reality. Ecology wasn't so important in those days. We're coming from, you know, another little cleft called the 60s, right? It was producing in the early days of Tassajara. And so it was a different thing. Also, I think there was some, although it was a time, what do you call it, the time of flower power, there was also, I think the Zen was a section of flower power that wasn't supposed to be sentimental.

[12:08]

So if you've seen those videos of early days of Tassajara and me carrying the stick, you can see we weren't, you know, kind of like touchy-feely kind of thing at that time. There was a video made, it was called Sunseed, and Zen Center Tatsahara was in it, one section of it. So after they go from, you know, me hitting the Han, kind of like... Or me carrying the stick, going... They go to this scene in Arizona with all these lovely ladies standing bare-chested in the sun. So we were holding up, you know, the Dharmakaya, the ultimate truth, you know. Now, it's not that we exactly move more towards these things, but we actually more explicitly mention the precepts. And we didn't chant the metta-sutta in the early days. And I think when we first started doing it, some people said, eh, I like this metta.

[13:13]

We're beyond that. People still sing. And so... So Zen Center, if you think of it as a circle anyway, we concentrated on ultimate truth and deep prajnaparamita for a number of years, and then we moved into a phase which in some sense should predate that, and in some sense did predate it. A lot of us came to Zen Center out of concerns of compassion and love, but then we went into a heavy, deep, wisdom practice, concentrating on ultimate truth for a long time, and then swinging back now to precepts, compassion, loving kindness, which is the context of why we came here in the first place. But to reiterate that, and so in this practice period too, going back and forth, going round and round between precepts, practicing the forms with diligence and attention and patience and generosity and enthusiasm.

[14:23]

Practicing compassion, in other words, and love throughout the day is the context in which we do this deep meditation on ultimate truth. And so, again, if you look at classical Zen literature, they do have the reputation, it looks like they're focusing on ultimate truth and what it's like when you realize ultimate truth. It's the behavior of instructions on how to enter ultimate truth and stories of what it's like after you get there and pass beyond it. So it's stories of entry, realization, and dropping it. A lot of Zen stories are after we go beyond ultimate truth. But there's not so many Zen stories that are so famous anyway, about the loving-kindness practice and precept practice. At least they haven't been translated into English much, because they're not that different from compassion in other schools of Buddhism.

[15:27]

The precepts are not that different from the precepts in other schools, and they're not that different from a lot of other religions, from Judaism, Christianity, and so on. They're not that different. The unique thing about Zen is the presentation of entry into the ultimate realization and also the strange way of behaving afterwards became the hallmarks of Zen. But if you look at Zen life actually, you know, outside the meditation hall where they enter into training in selflessness is a sign that says birth and death is the great matter. Birth and death is not ultimate truth. Ultimate truth is there is no birth and death. Congratulations. You're not suffering. You just think you are. You're not. But it doesn't say that outside the Zen door. It says birth and death and suffering are the great matter.

[16:29]

Impermanence is really impermanent and going faster every second. Get a grip. You know? Don't waste a moment. This is really serious, this world of suffering. And the precepts are highly emphasized in the monastery. In daily life, you know, people have some precept practice, but usually you don't talk to, you're not helping each other. You don't go into the bars all over Mill Valley and ask people what they're doing in there. But here we do. We gently, of course, sweetly, what are you doing in this bar, we say. Or this bardo. So we really do emphasize, strongly emphasize the precepts in our daily life and monasteries. Really?

[17:32]

More detailed than the 16, we go into fine detail about conduct. That's the context of this classical Zen training. And we also work on, you know, making ourselves comfortable. Practicing patience so we can take our seat in the cold and in the pain of a body that, you know, is now telling you the problems it's got because you're not running around anymore. It's saying, you know, you haven't been taking care of me all these years. Now would you please start? Hello? I'm talking to you. Listen, do I have to talk louder? Are you going to listen? Take care of this. Sit up straighter. Find the right posture. We're not going to put up with this much longer. We sit, we make ourselves, we listen, we open our ears and our hearts to the cries of our own body and we practice patience with it. This is all conventional world practice which sets up

[18:35]

the deep insight work. So, once again, is that clear, sort of, what we're doing here? At the same time, it doesn't mean that those classical Zen teachings are not true. They did happen and they are relevant, but We have to understand that this groundwork was going on then too. We're not doing something different from them. It's just that they didn't think it was necessary to mention the context of the deep insight work. So they didn't. They had monastic manuals, but that's one book, right? Just one book. They all use the same book, basically. And then each school, each temple would have the teachers emphasizing the points that they like to emphasize. So like Blanche likes to emphasize sewing. Somebody else likes to emphasize monastic detail, chanting. Somebody else likes to emphasize posture. Somebody else likes to emphasize cooking, and so on, grounds.

[19:38]

All the details in the monastery, different people emphasize different aspects of conventional truths. Basically, there's not a lot of books on it, but most of the books are about the ultimate. So, now, so Zen has this reputation of like, you know, the Bodhisattva path is, the path to the ultimate is like, in a lot of sutras, is very long. You know? Basically, it takes three long eons, they're different size eons in Buddhism, three long eons to attain Buddhahood if you work hard all the time. So Zen has a reputation for like, hey, it can happen now. So they give instructions, and if you can do these practices that they're instructing you on, you actually enter Buddhahood. into realization of ultimate truth.

[20:40]

What about the three eons? Why don't we know? It's kind of like, if you can't do these practices, okay, you'll be able to do them in three eons. But maybe you can do them now. Maybe you're ready now. So we give these teachings, which are teachings of direct entry into totality, to the whole group. And then they struggle to see how they can do these practices. And sometimes you can see, oh, I should do more, I have to be more generous, I have to be more selfless in my relationship with other people. That's what's undermining my meditation practice. But those bodhisattva practices of devotion to all beings are the context for these direct entry, direct realization practices, which I said we'd be discussing this practice period in which we have been discussing. But in order, you know, as you try to practice them, If you have some difficulty, understand that these practices can be supported by your work in the conventional world.

[21:49]

By carefully serving each other, you develop the ability to do this practice. you develop the ability to look at what's happened, to look at the floor, to look at the wall, to listen to the creak, to listen to the sounds, to smell and so on. You develop the ability to do this and to watch with an attitude which is proper to revelations. where you're not trying to get the color to split apart into three and show you true suchness, even though you've been told true suchness is right there in the color. You're not trying to get in there. So many times people say, how can I split the imputed from the dependent co-arising? You don't split it. It's already split. They're already separate. You have to sit there and tell the phenomena comes up to you and says, Got a little present for you. Look.

[22:51]

See the imputed backing away from the dependently co-arisen? Guess what that is? You know? You don't pry into the phenomena and make it be the way you're told it really is. It's already that way. You have to give up not seeing it that way. You have to give up ignoring that. But trying to give up ignoring it or trying to get the truth is continuing the old habit. The more devotion you practice towards all beings, the more you're ready to renounce the discovery of ultimate reality. renouncing everything, including the discovery of ultimate reality, will be presented to you on a silver platter. Thus I have heard, anyway.

[24:00]

So now, this morning, I'd like to give another... overview for you. Okay, so we have ultimate reality, okay, which is the Heart Sutra. Ultimate reality is there is no birth and death. Ultimate reality is that, as Wang Bo says, all sentient beings and all the Buddhists are just one mind. And there's no distinction. That's ultimate reality. And not only that, but that one mind is not born, does not come up, and does not go away. It has no characteristics. This is ultimate reality. And When you talk about Buddha being that way, you can also say Buddha is like that too.

[25:17]

Buddha is all the Buddhas and all the sentient beings being one. That's Buddha. And there's no distinction. That's Buddha. And there's no coming and going of that. That's Buddha. And there's no characteristics to that. That's Buddha. That's Buddha as ultimate reality. That's not Buddha as like you. as a person or Shakyamuni Buddha Buddha. That's the Dharmakaya Buddha. Okay? The Buddha himself, in his instructions that I've been citing over and over, did not say anything about ultimate reality. He didn't say anything about ultimate reality. He didn't say anything about sentient beings and Buddhas as being not distinguished. Right? He just said, in the scene, let there be the scene. In other words, this is a yoga construction. He's not talking about what you're going to get out of it.

[26:19]

Well, he did actually. He said, in the end, there will be no here or there or in between. In other words, sentient beings and Buddhas will not be separate. The ultimate, the result of the simple practice of disciplining your senses will be the realization of ultimate reality. Although he didn't say so. It's there. Bodhidharma didn't say anything about ultimate reality either. He just said, thus you'll enter the way. If you can have a mind, a body and mind like a wall, thus you'll enter the way, the way of ultimate truth. But after Bodhidharma, in particular his disciple Daushin, the fourth ancestor, he did talk about ultimate reality. That was his, the focus of his teaching was ultimate reality. However, he also established a strong monastic setup, you know, of precepts and commitments to bodhisattva vows and all that was going on.

[27:33]

And his written teaching that we now have is mostly just about focusing on ultimate reality. And he quotes a sutra which is called Manjushri Asks About Prajna. And in that sutra, Manjushri asks Buddha, what is the one practice samadhi? What is the one practice awareness? What is the concentration on the oneness of all life? And the Buddha says, Ultimate reality is of unified form. In ultimate reality, everything is one. Fixating on, or fixing your awareness on this, oneness of all things, is the one practice samadhi.

[28:37]

To be focused on the oneness of all things is the one practice samadhi. To be focused on the uniform quality of all life is the one practice samadhi, which the fourth ancestor emphasized as his main teaching. And that's what he recommended to his students, to always guard that awareness, which always is fixed on the oneness of all life. The Samdhi Nirmocana Sutra says the same thing. In the early part, when he's talking about ultimate reality, towards the end it says, ultimate reality is everywhere one. That's the way Thomas clearly translates it. The way Powers translates it is, ultimate reality is

[29:41]

everywhere one taste, or that which everywhere has one taste is ultimate reality. And later in the sutra, when they start giving instructions about how to, the yoga instructions about how to enter into the contemplation, The calming practices, the practices of taking care of yourself, and the insight practices, when they're joined and balanced, they can be focused on two kinds of teachings. One kind of teachings you can focus on are various kinds of teachings, like the early teachings of Buddha, the middle teachings of Buddha, and the late teachings of Buddha, and the teachings that happened after Buddha. all the different schools, very interesting, studying this and that and that. That's one way you can practice calming and insight or caring for yourself and seeing the ultimate.

[30:47]

But another way of doing it is practicing looking at what is called the totality of all the teachings or the integrated teaching. And in the totality of the teachings, meditating on a totality of teaching, you see all the teachings flowing into this suchness. All the teachings are entering this suchness. All the teachings flowing into nirvana. All the teachings going to the same place. So you focus on the one taste of all the teachings. So the sutra on the sutra of Manjushri asking about Prajna, the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, the fourth ancestor, all focusing on this ultimate reality. But again, they do this in the context of rigorous attention to the conventional world, rigorous attention to the details of monastic life,

[32:01]

And if you're not in a monastery, it would be rigorous details to the perceptual quality of your life outside the monastery. There's no way to stop taking care of the conventional world if you're intending to do this one practice, samadhi. That's the context. But they don't mention it. But that's the context. We have now, in the context of now doing the one practice samadhi, or in the context of entering into the contemplation of ultimate truth, we have the Buddha's instruction. We have Bodhidharma's instruction. We have Prajnatara's instruction. And now I might mention we have a little bit of the fourth ancestral instruction. All I've told you so far is that he said to be absorbed in the oneness of all things.

[33:08]

Find the oneness of all things. That's the ultimate. What's the same about everything? Look at that. That's the ultimate. What could be the same about everything? Look at that. Be concentrated on that. That's the one practice, samadhi. And Wang Bo presents at the beginning of his recorded sayings, he says, you know, this one mind, that's what he's teaching, this one mind, where there's no distinctions, there's no birth, no death. In other words, he's also talking about the one mind which is ultimate reality. He doesn't say, let's focus on this. He just talks about it a lot. But he also gives some yoga instructions. And... I'm sorry, I might mention them to you.

[34:10]

One is simply don't attach to anything in your mind. That's one. That's this attitude of facing phenomena without trying and renouncing discovery of the goodies. You've heard about the goodies? Yes, you have. They're excellent. They'll do you well. You won't be sorry when you realize them. But now, and they're in everything. So in everything you meet, you're ready to get the gift, but you've renounced trying to get it. You're ready for the big discovery, but you've renounced the discovery. And this is the attitude in which you will receive the good news. So that means, whatever phenomenon it is, he's talking about in your mind, okay?

[35:15]

Whatever phenomenon in your mind, don't attach to it. Of course you don't attach to anything, any place else either. The mind's the hardest. Don't attach to it. Then he also gives another instruction, which is very similar to the Samadhi Namacana Sutra. He says, you know, trainees usually, all they work with is their perceptive faculties. Again, the senses. What they need to do if they want to realize the ultimate is they need to make them void and thus cut off the mind road. That's very similar to what's talked about in the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra in the section on mind, thought and consciousness or something. In Kleri it's like the second chapter and the other one is like the fourth chapter.

[36:19]

The Bodhisattva asked the Buddha, what is it like when somebody is well-versed in mind, intellect and consciousness? Well, first of all, They're able to see them. So first of all, you learn what they are. Then, you see that there aren't any. Then you, that's what's called well-versed. Then the mine road's cut off. And we talked about the mine road, either you say cut off, But in other words, you also realize that these phenomena are cut off, that they're arising and the mental imputation which makes them turn into phenomena, it's cut off. You realize that. Another instruction he gives right after that is learn to see in the perceptual function, learn to see the ultimate in them, right where they're happening. Watch them

[37:20]

and see that the fundamental mind is in every phenomena, in every sensation. It's right in there. So again, same instruction. No, this is Wang Bo. Wang Bo. Wang Bo. Therefore, trainees only recognize their perceptive faculties and act accordingly. But if they render those perceptive faculties void so that the pathways of mind are eliminated, they will be without any way to enter into enlightenment. He says, don't render them void.

[38:23]

Okay? So I was wrong. He didn't say that. But if you render those perceptive faculties void so that the pathways of mind are eliminated, they will be without any way to enter enlightenment. So he says, don't render them void. I misquoted him. They should simply recognize the fundamental one mind within their perceptive faculties. Although the fundamental mind does not belong to those perceptive faculties, neither is it separate from the perceptive faculties. Just do not generate conceptual imputations on the basis of those perceptive faculties. Do not activate thoughts on the basis of those perceptive faculties. Mind like a wall. Do not look at for the mind apart from the perceptive faculties, the one mind. Do not look for the ultimate one mind apart from the perceptive faculties.

[39:26]

And do not reject perceptive faculties in order to grasp anything. Neither identical nor separate, neither abiding nor attached, it is universally autonomous and there is nowhere that is not the place of enlightenment. So this is, again, very much the same as the Samdhinirmocana Sutra. So, maybe that's enough. Is it? You don't know. Neither do I. Yes. conventional reality is the world of you know correctly perceived phenomenon it is the world of phenomena it's the world of birth and death it's the world where things seem to appear and disappear But it doesn't mean that you... It isn't the world where you say these things that appear and disappear are ultimately real.

[40:47]

That's not conventional reality. That's just, you know, that's just delusion. But even if you understand that things are ultimately empty, you still can see that they seem to appear and disappear. Is it conventional in the sense that one of the questions was, is this a shared... Yes, it's shared. No, it's not totally subjective. You can have experiences that aren't conventional reality, that don't use conventional designations, and that wouldn't be conventional reality. And also conventional reality wouldn't be that you think something is happening, and then a minute later you change your mind. That's not conventional reality for you. So the example is like a mirage. You see the water shimmering out there. You get closer and see that it's not water. So that's not a conventional reality. In other words, you sort of need to verify it by either another look or get somebody else to look at it with you.

[41:53]

Yes? What we see now is as not fully awakened beings, it's not conventional. How we're seeing it now, it's not conventional reality. How we see it now is not conventional reality. Well, until you're fairly enlightened. Until you can see it, that it's not an independent phenomenon. Right, but if you do see it as not an independent phenomenon, if you see it as empty, ultimately, and yet still arising, that's conventional truth. But if you think it's permanent, if you think it's arising and permanent, of course that doesn't make sense, but if you think it's permanent from now on, then you're not seeing conventional reality. Conventional realities, things aren't permanent, they don't have self, and stuff like that. So it's not the way everybody sees the world that's conventional reality.

[42:55]

Conventional reality is a lot simpler than the way most people see it. But it's characterized by impermanence, not-self, impurity, and suffering. Impermanence. That's the conventional world. Being grounded in conventional reality means you're grounded in impermanence, in not-self, in awareness of suffering, and awareness of the impurity of phenomena. Impurity means that phenomena are not like the place where you're going to get happiness. A pure face, the perfect face, or the perfect body, or the perfect car, or the perfect house, these things, these pure things, are not the source of happiness. If you see them as impure, it means they're impure in the sense of giving you satisfaction.

[43:59]

When you see the world like that, you're seeing the conventional world. Although you still think it appears and disappears. Yes? Do you want to say something? No? Okay. So, not everybody can see the truth of worldly convention. In other words, not everybody can see the truth... of the world which is created by using conventional designations which we do agree on. Not everybody can see that because most people, you know, they're used to making it a little bit more interesting than that. So it's hard for them to switch from their, from the way they inflate conventional reality into a, into a deluded version of it. Back to just regular old conventional reality. No. I think in Time magazine does conventional wisdom mean stupidity?

[45:01]

Is that what it means? Conventional wisdom? I don't understand what that conventional wisdom is. Anyway, it's not conventional wisdom. It really is a kind of wisdom. Conventional wisdom or conventional truth is a truth. It's a truth. It's actually true. It's just that it's not ultimately true. It's a difficulty, you know. It's a difficult concept because although it's true, it's refutable. it won't hold up because ultimately it doesn't happen so you know you can you can show that it doesn't think kind of like it's permanent now if you if you ask me say oh no i know it's not permanent but really they kind of sort of act like they think it is like everybody here probably knows they're going to die but does everybody here really are they are they up for the fact that they don't know when and that it could be quite soon like today it could be today right But we kind of don't really like, we're not like really letting that in.

[46:03]

The full consequences of that, or to put it the other way, we're actually kind of assuming that this isn't the last day and we're kind of living it on that basis. And some of the things we might do today might show that we think there's a tomorrow. And I've been telling a number of people, at least until the end of practice period, Give up thinking of the future. You do not have to. The director maybe has an excuse, but you don't. You can actually, even if the director comes and talks to you about the summer, you do not have to answer any questions. Food will be supplied to you. Housing will be supplied to you. Schedules and lectures will be... You will have a full range of things to deal with between now and the end of the practice period. You do not have to think of one second ahead. You do not have to. You can take a break from that and learn to live in the phenomenal expression of the conventionality of the present, which is impermanent, unsatisfactory, impure, and not self.

[47:17]

You can find that out. But if you think you have to think of the future, well, then that's because you don't really want to let the teaching of impermanence in. So, consider the possibility that you're going to die before lunch. It's a possibility. Let that in, but also let out the idea that you're not going to die before lunch. That's the one you're holding on to. You think not. Well, that's not conventional truth. Conventional truth is we don't know when it's going to be. We don't know when we're going to die also don't you think that some things maybe the thing is going to give you happiness you probably do got to drop that when you drop all these perverted views then you start to see conventional truth and then ground yourself in that ground yourself in that that's where you meditate from okay Well, there's 19 hands.

[48:20]

So, well, Nigel, since you're already talking... If the director stops me on the road... Stopped you on the road, yes. If the director stops him on the road... And asks me a question in relation to the summit... Yes. And if I'm standing, taking this information from her in full knowledge... that I'm living in a moment-by-moment situation in which I could die in the next moment. Yes? This in no way prevents me from answering the question, because that is all that's happening anyway, isn't it? That's right. It doesn't prevent you. It does not prevent you. You're right. You can say... No, you don't say, somewhere I'll be here. You say, Leslie, whatever I can do to help, let me know. LAUGHTER That's all I care about is to help you, you know, with your job.

[49:22]

And then she's satisfied, you know. She puts you wherever she wants, whatever job, no problem. Tell you to leave Tassajara, she's set. And you're ready to leave Tassajara too. As a matter of fact, you're ready to leave right now. So you can answer a question, but you don't have to answer a question, is what I'm saying. You don't have to. But you don't have to think of the future. You don't have to lean into it. You don't have to think, well, what's going to happen to me at the end of the brightest period? What kind of housing am I going to have? What's my job going to be? You don't have to do that. You can forget that until the practice period is over, and then at the day the practice period ends, that afternoon, you can start that if you want to. But you may find out you don't have to. You may find out you don't ever have to do that again. You don't ever have to, again, worry about what's going to happen to you. The world's supporting you. Nigel, as you know. That's your point. I know that's your point. I'm just elaborating your point. Okay. Okay. Wait a minute.

[50:30]

Did you want to say something more? Vicky? Vicky? My group had three questions, and you could answer whichever one would be best. Are emptiness and dependent co-arising the same? Yes. What's the relation between emptiness and suchness? And can you consciously experience suchness, and how do you know it? I think there's a difference between emptiness and suchness. Suchness is described as it's a particularly special truth. It's the truth of the imputed being separate from, or put it the other way, it's dependent co-arising where the conventional designation doesn't

[51:44]

adhere to it. It's dependent co-arising without the strong adherence of the conventional designation being adhered to it such that you misconstrue dependent co-arising as the imputed. Okay? Whenever there's a dependent core arising, whenever there's dependent core arising of a phenomena, there is conventional designation. And basically, you cannot have a phenomena without both. But suchness is the fact that, the reality that, you don't construe dependent core arising as the conventional designation. That's suchness. Which is slightly different from emptiness. Emptiness is the lack of inherent existence of the imputational character.

[52:47]

It's the lack of inherent existence of the dependently co-arisen character. And it's the lack of inherent existence of suchness. Suchness is empty too. Now, all phenomena also are characterized by emptiness, but emptiness is not a characteristic in this sense that they're talking about. So suchness is not the same as emptiness. Okay? That too? I tried. One more. So there's a question was... Can one consciously explain the sentience in their soul? How does one know it? Can one consciously... This is a very difficult point. It is not a conscious experience, but it is a discernment.

[53:52]

Wisdom is not a conscious experience, it is a discernment of the way things are. So there is a discernment of suchness. There is the wisdom of suchness. There is a discernment that the pinnacle arising is unconfused with conventional designation. That's a discernment. But it's not a conscious experience. Well, just like, you know, for example, anger is not a conscious experience. Anger is a phenomena that arises with mind Okay? Anger is not a conscious experience. You can be conscious of anger. And you can be conscious of discernment, but discernment itself is not a conscious experience. Okay, so the consciousness comes after the experience?

[54:55]

Is that... I don't understand. The consciousness comes after the experience? No, consciousness... When I say consciousness, I mean an experience. Discernment is not an experience. It is a lack of confusion. This is correct discernment. And it's interesting because some of the bodhisattvas in the sutra, Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, they have the word mati in their name. And mati... is a dharma that's sort of associated with most... I think it's a universal dharma. And it means intelligence. If you look at the Abhidharma list, they don't have prajna on the list. They have mati. But the names of these bodhisattvas are like... One of them is su-visudhi-matit, which means the attainment of pure intellect, which means prajna. So...

[55:55]

As part of our mind, naturally, we have this capacity for intelligence, for discerning, for discriminating, to choose between what's happening. And when it gets to be very accurate and unconfused, you can call it prajna, but that's not a conscious experience. Is that the same as insight? Would you call it insight? Same as insight, yeah. Correct insight of what's going on. Is the anger connected with the conscious? Pardon? The anger is connected with the conscious? Yes, it is. There's no anger floating around with our consciousness. So, is the conscious our memory, our past? Pardon? Is the consciousness our memory? No, but memory is something that can arise with consciousness. I don't understand then why anger is connected with the mind but not with the consciousness.

[57:01]

Anger is connected with mind and consciousness. But you said that anger is not connection. No, I said anger was not a conscious experience. Well, every experience you have is a conscious experience. Every experience we have is a conscious experience. Every experience, what did I say? Every experience we have is a conscious experience. How is it that neither is not a conscious experience? Well, let's say you're looking at a green field, okay? And you're hangry. What you're aware of is the green field. And you're angry, but you're not aware that you're angry. But you're angry. Anger is not a conscious experience. Your conscious experience is of a green field. That's your experience.

[58:02]

You're having an experience of a green field. What about when you're having an experience of anger? Pardon? What about when you're having an experience of anger? Well then, anger is the object and you have an experience of anger. But anger is not a conscious experience. Green field isn't a conscious experience. That's the name of it. But green field is not a conscious... It's the consciousness and the green field and everything going on that's the experience, right? The object isn't the experience, is it? How about if there's somebody poking you consistently in the back with their own nail? Yes. Well, let's take one at a time, okay? Is Vicky poking you? No. Okay. This is related to... This is related to if the... Is the clock ticking or not?

[59:05]

And it's related to this famous example of if a tree falls in the forest and you're not there, is there a sound? This gets into the mechanics of experience. But before I get into that, I just want to mention that here's the picture I'm proposing. You have life, you have conscious life. The consciousness cannot get into the insights But the insight can illuminate the consciousness. You can't make... The prajna is not a conscious experience. Buddha's mind, the prajna, the wisdom of Buddha's mind is not a conscious experience. But that wisdom can illuminate a conscious experience, which is why it's important, because we have to live with conscious experiences. We have to, like, okay, I've got a conscious experience, and I've got to, like, deal with Rosie, so it would be nice if I had some wisdom illuminating this relationship. Okay?

[60:07]

But, you know, this experience of Rosie does not touch the presence of my wisdom. Doesn't touch it, so she can go away. Doesn't make any difference to the wisdom. The wisdom is the correct discernment of what's happening. Consciousness doesn't get in there. Bendowa. First thing, this wonderful, inconceivable dharma is all pervading throughout all Buddhas and all sentient beings. Buddhas are always in it, but the consciousness leaves no trace in the illumination. And But the illumination completely penetrates the consciousness. But that doesn't make the consciousness into a conscious experience of illumination. You can be looking at a tooth or feeling pain. That's the conscious experience. That's the name of the conscious experience. But it's not that the conscious experience is the tooth. It's that the tooth together with the consciousness and the organ and all that, including that you might be angry, all that is the conscious experience.

[61:07]

When you're angry and you look at the green field, it's different. than when you're not angry. You don't know you're angry at the time, you're not aware of it because it's not an object of awareness, but it's a different experience than the other one. And you eventually would be able to discern that with wisdom. You could say, this is green, this is green, this is green, this is green. There's anger this time, there wasn't anger this time, there was anger this time. You can see that, but that doesn't mean that any of them had wisdom as a conscious experience. Wisdom was the discernment of what was going on in terms of all the dharmas, Okay? The Abhidharma course says wisdom is discernment of dharma. Okay? That's wisdom. Discernment of dharma. What's going on? And it means all the little things that are going on plus each little thing that you understand that it's mental imputation, dependent co-arising and suchness. That's wisdom. It's not a conscious experience but it's a clear discernment.

[62:09]

And one can like tell everybody what's being discerned. The discernment's available to consciousness. Ask it a question, the question comes in, the consciousness responds because the consciousness is illuminated. It's an illuminated consciousness, so it can answer questions about what's going on, but the discernment is not a conscious experience. It is a resource called wisdom. That is today's understanding. Okay? Okay? Now, if you're ready, we can talk about the top clock ticking and the tree in the forest, which is kind of related, but I can also wait. Well, what's the difference between that and Greenfield or just another experience? Yeah. But he had a question now and there's several other people who haven't. He can wait, right? Okay, so I don't know who's next. Let's see. There was somebody over here. You had a question?

[63:12]

We will. You're interested in what Gail asked about? Okay. Many people are used to viewing things upside down. Conventional truth is that everything that arises ceases. That's part of conventional truth. Conventional truth is that things, although they do not ultimately exist, they do appear. It is true that they do appear. It's called aputta parikalpita. It's this wonderful... Vicky... He used abhuta recently and looked up the word. Abhuta means strange, rare, wonderful, what else, Vicki? Terrific, anyway.

[64:15]

Miraculous, yeah. Miraculous parikalpita. What's parikalpita? Mental imputation. There is this wondrous thing that we can actually impute ourselves. and create the appearance of things. It is true. That is one of the truths, is that there is a constant production of what actually in the end fails to exist. There is a constant production of that which doesn't exist. And it's constant. That's the truth. That's the conventional truth. Okay? Then with these things that really don't ultimately exist, it won't hold up to analysis. Those things, we then look at them in upside-down ways. Okay? If they're produced, they cease. That means they're impermanent. But we see them as permanent, at least the ones we love, or the ones we're afraid of. We ignore reality. Marsha asked me, how can we ignore suchness for power? If you don't think you're going to be here this afternoon, why would you defend your turf?

[65:20]

You'd be interested in more like to sit down someplace and just say, I only have a little bit of time left. I think I'll enjoy it. If you're looking at dependent core arising, you're not into like, those are my girls. That's my house. You're kind of like just looking, you're kind of like, you know, Ferdinand the Bull under the tree. Oh, look at the green leaves. Yeah. That's my cow, did you say? Yeah. That's my cow. Look at that. Look at that cow. And now there's that other bull taking that cow away. Fantastic. So out of power we say, wait a minute, forget about this interdependent stuff. Get away from my cow. So we ignore that for power. So we make impermanent things into permanent things. It's not conventional truth that phenomena are permanent.

[66:25]

Also, we say that something exists all by itself. That's not conventional truth. Even a child knows that's not true, but we actually see it that way a lot of the time when it's to our service in terms of power. Also, we actually think phenomenal things are going to give us pleasure, even though when we get something that's pleasant, we're afraid we're going to lose it. Even though a phenomenal thing comes to us that's unpleasant, we find it unpleasant. We think there's some possibility of pleasure there, but we don't get it. And neutral things are they're irritating to us too, where actually all possible variety of things are not really good resources for happiness. And so on. We pervert it. And that's not conventional truth. And if you start talking about these things, impermanence, not self, impurity, and what's the other one? Suffering. If you're talking about this, a lot of people get upset because you're tampering with their idea of reality.

[67:30]

In other words, they're not used to conventional truth. They're used to delusions. And when you talk about conventional truth, they get upset. You start reversing these perverted views. These perverted views are about the conventional world. They're not about, ultimately, The ultimate world is permanent, is pure, is a resource of happiness. And, you know, I almost have this self. It has a self which is the self that's dropped off. It's this wonderful perfected self that's not a problem anymore. But before you do that one, you've got to face this other one. The conventional world, which is really hard, that's where we practice patience. And if you can be patient with the suffering of the conventional world, and you can be patient with these marks of conventional phenomena, then you can face ultimate reality without losing your ground in the world. Okay?

[68:31]

Charlie? I mean, Lumizal? It's a conventional truth that people appear to believe. It's a conventional truth that they appear to be deluded, yes, and it's a conventional truth that this apparently deluded person is impermanent, and so on. Say it again? What's the relationship between delusion and conventional truth? Delusion is the appearance of delusion as part of conventional truth. Yeah, right. It's an unconventional truth. Well, for some people it's not. Some people never see it. They just don't see it. But anyway, the appearance of delusion is something that could appear and it's impermanent and doesn't have self. If it had self, then it would be all over. And we should just adjust to being deluded and make the best of it.

[69:36]

But actually, Buddhists say, you know, you... you can actually become free of it because it's impermanent. It depends on certain conditions. Without those conditions, it won't be here anymore. And when you say we have to be grounded in conventional truth, it's grounded in the truth that we think was alluded a lot of the time. Grounded in the truth that we have that thought. Yes. Yes. And grounded in the appearance that we think we're not deluded, which I run into more often in general. But Zen Center is a pretty good place because a lot of people at Zen Center are aware that they're deluded. But a lot of people are not aware of it. They think, me? You must be kidding. I'm not deluded. I mean, take my word for it. Yes, Martin? It has to do with the question of the clock ticking and the

[70:39]

the notion that if I'm going to die, I don't know when I'm going to die, I'm not going to sit down and enjoy this moment now. I can only do that if I know absolutely that food is going to be supplied to me. I have to trust that the world is going to feed me. And the world will only feed me if someone is thinking of the future. So I can only sit and not think of the future because I'm in this city. You can say that, I don't agree, but you can say that. But then, if nobody is thinking of the future, I may quite possibly die right this next second, because some of the dots are going to make me decide to plant them. You may die the next moment, regardless of anything. Absolutely. But we're talking about your meditation practice. You're not going to be able to meditate unless you feel that you're supported. That's what I thought you said. You're not going to be able to sit down and enjoy this moment, which I would call meditation, unless you feel supported.

[71:43]

Right. Because then you think, well, I have to think of the future. I can't appreciate this moment. No, no, I'm not saying I... No, I'm just saying you will. You didn't say that. I'm saying you will. In other words, you won't enjoy this moment because you don't think somebody else is going to help you, so then you think you have to. It's not actually about me, actually. It's about this notion in character If I'm not there, the clock's not ticking. But if I go back and the hands have moved, I occur and I trust absolutely that actually the clock has been ticking while I haven't been there. And so when I sit and don't think about the future, I have to trust that somebody else is still thinking. Otherwise, I will not be able to do it. I would die from starvation. Okay, I'll start again. You're saying, in order for me... To not think of the future, I have to think somebody else is thinking of the future. I have a different requirement. I would say, in order for me to not think of the future, I have to think that I'll be supported.

[72:46]

No, that's where I disagree with you. I could be supported by bodhisattvas. Who did not do that? But then bodhisattvas can only be bodhisattvas because somebody else is thinking of the future. No, no. You can walk out of this room without thinking of the future. You can cook lunch without thinking of the future. But the world, I'm done. The world does not survive that way. Let's see, what's the problem? Marty, thinking of the future. A bodhisattva can think of the future, okay? The thought future group in the mouth, they can think of that word, all right? It's okay for them to think of that. A Buddha can think of the word future. But thinking of the future, what I mean by thinking of the future is thinking of the future and being thrown off center by it. That's what I mean by thinking of the future. That's what you don't have to do during the practice period. And you're saying, I can only do that if somebody else is deluded like that. No, but you're saying somebody has to be deluded for you to be not deluded. And I'm saying that's not true.

[73:51]

I disagree. I could be supported by people who are not deluded, in other words, who think of the future without being thrown off balance by that. Most people think of the future and they get very upset. I observe. The people in the practice period of thinking of the future are upset every time they think of it, because they're always thinking about, you know, they're worried about themselves. Now it's possibly safe to think about the future for someone else's benefit, but then you're not, if it's really for their benefit, you're cool. That's not what I mean by thinking of the future. Thinking of the future means that you're leaning into it, that you're not in the present. And I'm saying that I could be supported by a world of people who are present and awake and took care of this concept future without leaning into it, without worrying about themselves in the future, they could feed me and support me, and I think they already are. And that's when I can really meditate. I can't actually meditate if I think all those people are deluded, and they're all screwed up. So they're thinking about the future.

[74:54]

If they're screwed up, they are. But even if they're not screwed up, you just said you could think about the future. What I mean by thinking about the future is the way that I'm saying you don't have to do it. For example, you don't have to think about it for the rest of the practice period. But people do it anyway even though they don't have to. That way they don't have to do it. That way of being concerned about themselves. Like if I don't think about this with my future between now and the end of the practice period, something bad will happen to me. That's not true. I've seen people who have forgotten about it for long times and they're just fine. The point is that Thinking about the future, I mean you think about it like it's out there, it's over there, it's not here. You're not aware that you're just thinking. You're not meditating while you're thinking about it. That's what I mean by thinking about the future. And I don't need to have other people do that to get my lunch. Now, if the kid says, okay, we cannot make lunch without doing that, therefore, do you recommend that we actually, like...

[75:57]

stop thinking of the future in that way? And I would say, yes. And then see what you do. And they say, well, we think we'll do such and such. Well, then you're thinking of the future about that. But you just go in there. We'll all just sort of take the kitchen into the room and just leave in there and just say, now you stay in the room till lunchtime and just try not to leave the room, okay? We just, I wouldn't say till lunchtime. We just say, stay in the room, please. We'll come and get you sometime. And they'll make lunch. It might be different from the usual lunch. It might be in the form of, you know, we come down at lunchtime, we say, what happened? They say, well, come on in and help yourself. The walk-in's right here. We don't know exactly what kind of lunch it will be. But you do not have to think of the future in order to move. in order to cut bread. You do not have to.

[76:59]

You can if you want to, but if you're like, well, what will happen if I cut the bread? Will people like me? Will I get fired? Will I get promoted? Will I be famous? This is what people are into. You don't have to do that to cut the bread. Will it make me fat? Will it make me skin? Does it have enough protein? You get into this kind of stuff, you don't have to. You can, but you can drop it. I've seen people drop it. They're fine. Everything works out just fine. In fact, they tend to be more energetic and more helpful because they're unhindered by worry about themselves. What's going to happen to me in the future? Those people can support me. Those people do support me. Plus the other people who are deluded and worried all the time, they support me too. But I'm sorry that they do because they don't have to. I mean, I'm sorry that they're worried because their worry does not help me. It doesn't make a better lunch. From my point of view. Now, they may not win certain trophies, those people who don't worry about the future. They may not be the greatest chefs in the world.

[78:01]

Maybe those people, maybe they give those people awards because they're the most unhappy. Generally speaking, they are. You know, because they're so scared about, you know, are they going to win the Culinary Institute's award or something? So maybe they get it because they're so worried. I don't know. But I do agree with you part of the way that you won't be able to really meditate if you don't feel supported. But I don't agree with you that for you to be supported, other people have to be deluded. I don't believe that enlightened people couldn't support you. But I guess you think so, so I hope you feel supported. I do feel like I'm supported. Yeah, and you just require that people who are supporting you have to think of the future. I don't think we're quite... Okay. Okay. What are you saying? Okay.

[79:01]

Yeah. Getting food is like a natural instinct in terms of talking about getting food. People a long time ago, when they were getting food, you know, when hunted, they just used their senses to go get food and that developed into farming and all of and all the culture that's been set in motion over the years. People are all doing various jobs. People are driving trucks and doing the farming and doing the kitchen. Maybe they are, but they could not be thinking about future in a way. And you're in meditation. And that's what you're doing. Yes. You say not leading into the future, but isn't it true that the thought of the future exists in the present?

[80:17]

Yes. So you can sit in the future in the present. Yes. It's just the present. Yes. Right. But then the person doesn't look like... They're not worried then. They're not anxious. Right. When they say, oh, this is the future. Like the tribe I've seen on Saturday. I think Saturday. But If I think that I'm going to be here Saturday, if I think I'm permanent, then Saturday could be a threat to me, because, you know, what's going to happen to me on Saturday? That's what I mean by thinking future. You don't have to do that. Saturday is traditionally called tomorrow, by the way, because today's Friday. But, you know, to think of the future is like, well, I can't, like, pay attention to today, because I'm thinking of the future. That's what I mean by thinking of the future. If I'm paying attention to myself thinking of the future right now, I'm just looking, now I'm thinking of the future. That's quite different from what's going to happen to me who's going to be around tomorrow.

[81:18]

Does it have to do with not impeding? Well, maybe you can put it more basically, but just actually being in your body. Not imputing... Okay, we're not talking about not imputing. Put that aside for a second. It has to do with practicing selflessness. It has to do with putting aside concern for yourself. And also it has to do with facing impermanence. Those two things. Then when the idea of future comes up, you're not concerned for yourself, means you put aside the way of thinking about the future, which you're habitually associated with, of thinking about the future in terms of taking care of yourself, but you miss the present. That's what I mean by thinking about the future. Thinking about the future means thinking about the idea of future without awareness while you're doing it. But because we're scared, we lose our awareness of our thinking process, period, plus especially when we're thinking of the future or the past. So giving up thoughts of future and past are a way to train yourself in selflessness or another way to make your mind like a wall.

[82:24]

This is a good example. The idea of future comes up And you're quiet around it. You just say, oh, future. You don't say future and, oh, well, am I still going to have my job at the end of practice period? That's kind of like, that's called activating your mind around the idea of future. But just like future, job, fame, loss, these things come up, you watch them. I don't have much time left and somehow I'm being delivered these words, okay? I'll study them. Saturday, Sunday, March, May. You can be thrown off balance by that, or you can just stay present with it and say May. Okay? May 16th. Oh. That's called a mind like a wall. No. No. That kind of training... is the posture in which you will see suchness.

[83:34]

If you walk around here not leaning into the future or the past, not worried about what's going to happen to you next, you're in the right posture for revelation. Including not thinking of the future, but not thinking of your future revelations. Not to mention your future job assignments and your future meals. You handle this moment and then suddenly there's a food in front of you. And you say, a little bit please. But you have, your mind's like a wall. You're not worried about this for yourself. Your mind doesn't get activated around the smell of the food. That's the posture in which you can see food. into suchness. That's a posture where you can see the computational not being confused with the dependable horizon. That's the posture in which you can receive the miracle of sight. Yes. So not thinking of the future, you can discover the miracle of sight.

[84:35]

Yes. Yes. So they kind of build onto it, because if someone says future, or something about future, and anxiety does come, and then you look at that and see, oh, I'm imputing all these ideas onto the future, I don't even know if I'll be there, and maybe I'll be supportive. Some rep says, I'll be supportive. So I can see there's this gap between the actual, the unknown future that's there and this implication line. Doesn't that help develop the mind? It might help somewhat, but it is still dabbling in the future. That scenario I heard, still you're leaning in the future. Thinking about those that I might be supportive of. Yeah, that's still thinking about, that's still sort of like saying, okay, you'll be all right. The thing that, if you feel supported, what you can do is watch that you're anxious.

[85:42]

The fact that you can see that you're anxious means you feel supported. Supported enough so that you don't have to react right now. You can look and say, when you look, when you feel anxious and you notice that you're anxious, you feel on some level you're supported to do that. That shows you believe it at that moment. And if you feel supported to look at the anxiety, then you don't have to necessarily get into telling stories about what you're worried about might or might not happen. Then you say, here I am, I'm surviving with awareness of anxiety. I'm supported to do that, and I'm supported to do it again. This other thing still is leaning a little bit like, this probably won't happen. you still kind of like, you have not really looked right at the anxiety. So you don't really feel enough support to actually meditate on the painful experience. And then it may be that by some conversation with yourself you may be able to come back and feel the anxiety. But that conversation is really, is a deviation and shows you don't really trust that you're supported to do that meditation.

[86:46]

Well, So I just want to mention that maybe in the next class we can talk about this thing about the ticking and the tree falling. Because I think it's maybe a little bit too much right now. Maybe it's better to respond to the questions. I don't know who is next. I think maybe over there it's for a while. Jennifer? I'll call on people who haven't been called on yet. Jennifer? Jennifer? I want you to back what you first brought up, when you come at night and you need to go out for a month, but could you please do that? And you mentioned patients, but I think that's a good way to try to treat it. And also, when you talk about that, Passion, because I see your passion when you teach, and you're not attached to it, so it's really beautiful, because it's free, but in Zen, the Buddha said to not forget the exact word, but... Well, I think desire, passionate associated desire means you're trying to get something.

[88:02]

Caring about people, you don't necessarily want to get anything. You just care about them. You passionately care about them. You're passionately interested in something, you don't necessarily have to be trying to get something from it. You can be passionately interested in having the proper posture, for example, without trying to get anything, without leaning into the future and thinking about what's going to happen for you. As a matter of fact, if I have a posture when I'm trying to get something from that posture, my posture really isn't upright. And that trying to get something from this upright posture drains my energy to sit upright. So there can be passion. Buddhas have passion. They're passionately enthusiastic about practice. Passionately generous. Passionately patient. But they're not trying to get anything. That's desire. And if you don't discipline your senses, you slip in desire. But again, we can't discipline ourselves if we don't feel supported. because we feel, you know, well, I've got to take care of this stuff and arrange this stuff before I can, like, discipline myself in not worrying about getting something. The discipline is to drop self-gaining issues in your attitude towards what's happening.

[89:13]

To renounce the wonderful discoveries that will come, to drop them, is the right attitude. But if I don't feel like I'm supported by the teaching, then I feel like, well, I've got to hold on to this issue of discovery because nobody's going to remind me of this. So, passion, Buddhas do have desire, but not desire to get something. What should I say about history? Yeah. I don't... I don't... I don't know... I can't say for sure, but I don't think that he meant it that way, pushing it out. I think he meant become intimate with the snake.

[90:17]

That's the safest relationship with the snake. And Nagarjuna talks about, if you try to grasp emptiness without being grounded in the conventional, it's like taking a hold, it's like unskillfully handling the snake. Okay? Emptiness is like a snake. It can be poisonous if you grab it the wrong way. So, It's a question of relating to this dangerous ultimate truth in a skillful way so it doesn't hurt you. So it's the same. I often use the expression, the example of, you know, Buddha said to make your meditation seat out of kusa grass. And kusa grass is like pompous grass. It has a sharp edge. It has a nice broad leaf and it makes a nice meditation cushion. You get a big pile of them. But in collecting them, you cut your hand if you're not careful. So, based on that word kusa, they made the word kushala, which means skillful.

[91:24]

But you become skillful at handling things, potentially dangerous things, in a skillful way. So, handling snakes in a skillful way sometimes is driving out. But sometimes it's pick it up. But pick it up. Maybe the snake handlers now use these plexiglass tubes to pick them up. They no longer try to pick them up with their hands. They've got a new way of picking them up. A new way of handling them. These are people who are intimate with snakes. And they become more skillful at handling them. But sometimes driving them away is appropriate.

[92:04]

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