And then when the people get in the stages and they start getting all upset because they're not progressing up the stages at the rate they'd like to, or they get to a certain stage that they're really good at and they don't want to take the next one because, you know, they finally learned this one, or they're almost ready to learn this one, they don't want to move on to the next one until they learn this one. You know, they get into, like, some attachment to how this climbing the stairs is going, and teachers then tease them about that or, you know, sometimes beat them up. But I don't do that. I more am talking to you about how you can not have any stages and be happy with that. Even though the better you get at not grasping stages, the more the thought might come, shouldn't I be doing something more? Like someone told me that in her history of her life, she's very involved in accomplishing stuff and she's good at accomplishing stuff.

[01:03]

But when she came to practice, she was able to like sit without really trying to accomplish anything. And it was like a real nice relief from her strongly developed habit of accomplishing a lot of stuff. But now, after she's had this nice relief and this nice break from accomplishing a lot, now this message of, shouldn't you be accomplishing something, is starting to come back into her sitting. You've had a long enough break. Now let's turn this into also an area of accomplishment. You can't just sit here and not accomplish anything forever. Come on. You're an accomplished this, you're an accomplished that, and now you're going to be an accomplished meditator. Well, there are people who are accomplished meditators. You've probably heard about them. They can do amazing things. It's quite an accomplishment. If you can accomplish anything, being an accomplished meditator is one of the best.

[02:06]

It's like as good as being an accomplished artist. It's basically an artist of the mind and body. So it's a wonderful thing to be accomplished at, but the Buddha is not concerned about being accomplished herself. She's concerned with everybody else being accomplished. So that's called meeting the issue of accomplishment with no mind. And if you do meet it with no mind, of course, that is the greatest accomplishment. And meeting it with no mind, you naturally meet other beings and help them also meet what's happening with no mind. And then they have great accomplishments too. But you're not concerned with it.

[03:08]

So if you can sit and let these come and go, including all these issues of progress and gain, let them come and go, that's basically it. And you might, in that situation, want to study some Buddhist teachings and do some Buddhist practices. There's endless Buddhist practices. There's endless opportunities. the important thing is not to wreck them by turning them into another accomplishment in your long list of accomplishments. So I mentioned, I think the last time I told this story, this is one of the basic stories, it's a story about that Workman Lu, remember Workman Lu, the sixth ancestor of Zen?

[04:18]

Well, one time a monk came to visit him, a monk named Huairang. And he said, Where are you from? And Huairang said, I'm from Mount Sung. And the sixth ancestor said, what is it that thus comes? In other words, like I said the other day, what is it that thus comes is the name for the Buddha, the Tathagata. So he's sitting there meeting this monk and he's saying, what is this? He's meeting what's coming. What is this that thus comes? It's also a question. But he's also saying, basically, Buddha. The guy comes and he says, Buddha. But it's also Buddha in the form of, what is it that thus comes, Buddha?

[05:23]

So then the monk also looks, well, what is coming? What is the Buddha? What is the Buddha? How is the Buddha happening right now? And if I remember correctly, when you read the story, then he gives his answer in the next line. So you're going to hear his answer today, probably, if I live much longer. But I just want to tell you that I think there were seven years between these two lines. So when you read the story, you think, wow, this monk is really amazing that he could come back with this answer. So, you know, this is pretty good. And it is good, but there's seven years between those two lines.

[06:28]

Which doesn't mean he's bad. He's still a Buddha, but anyway. So the sixth answer says, what is it that thus comes? In other words, what's Buddha? And then Huay Rang says, to say that it's this misses the point. Also, to say that it isn't this misses the point. And then the ancestor says, Workman Lu, who is now the ancestor, says, Well, does that mean there's no practice or enlightenment? Do you understand? In other words, what Buddha? To say that it's this misses the point of Buddha.

[07:32]

Well, does that mean there isn't a practice that you can point to? Can't you say, this is the Buddha's practice and this is the Buddha, or this is the Buddha's practice and this is the Buddha's enlightenment? Can't you point to it? Can't you tell me? You won't tell me anything about Buddha? All you're going to tell me about Buddha is that to say it's this misses the point? Is that all you're going to tell me about Buddha? So isn't there a Buddha? Isn't there a practice and an enlightenment? Okay? That's the question. And Huay Rang says, I don't say there's no practice and I don't say there's no realization or enlightenment or transformation. I just say that it must not be defiled. So if you ask me what Buddha is, I don't say there isn't Buddha. I just say whatever we say about it misses the point. I don't want to defile it.

[08:35]

by saying this is Buddha or this isn't Buddha, or Buddha's this or Buddha's that. In other words, I meet whatever you're talking about with no mind. I'm not going to grasp and put Buddha in a package and give it to you. I'm not going to defile it. I'm not going to say there is practice. You notice he didn't say, the teacher said, if you're not going to tell me anything about Buddha, does that mean there's no practice and no realization? no practice and change in the way we are. And he didn't say, yes, there is practice, and yes, there is realization. He didn't do that either. He said, I'm not going to say there isn't. So we don't say there is Buddha. We don't say there isn't Buddha. We just want to be something that we don't say is or isn't. And that's what the Buddha is, is something that's not is or isn't. something you can't say, this is it, or this is not it.

[09:40]

You can't say that. I mean, you can say that. You can say that, yes. It's a free country. It's a free Buddha land, especially. So you can go up and say, this is Buddha. This isn't Buddha. You can say that. But that's not true. You can't really, that's not true that something isn't Buddha. It's never true that something isn't Buddha. And it's not really true that something is Buddha. If I say this is Buddha, that kind of defiles you and Buddha. If I say this isn't Buddha, it also defiles you and Buddha. So we don't do that in this workman Lu tradition. We just say, I'm not going to defile it. You can't make me. So then the ancestor says, this way of not defiling the Buddha, which is the same as saying not defiling whatever comes, every experience that comes, if you don't defile it by grasping it or rejecting it,

[11:03]

if you don't defile it by putting it into any categories or boxes, if you just let it be, Buddha can be realized. But if you say it is Buddha, and say, oh, Buddha, or if you say it isn't Buddha and try to get rid of it, if you do anything like that with it, you defile it. And you miss the opportunity to realize Buddha by not saying this is or isn't Buddha. This way of non-defilement which you have now demonstrated, this way has been protected and maintained by all the Buddhas. This is the way that the Buddhas protect and maintain. This no-mind way of meeting and letting go of everything that comes, of every Buddha that comes. We meet and let go of the Buddha. We meet and let go of the Buddha. We meet everything with this meeting, touching, and letting go.

[12:07]

This way is the way that the Buddhas protect and maintain. And then the ancestor says to his new friend, Now I am like this. And you're this way too. I told you this before when I came to visit before, that the Sanskrit word for the way things are, or the suchness of things, is ta, ta, ta.

[13:28]

Ta, ta, ta. And the Pali is, I think, more fun. It's da, da, da. whatever is coming. And the one who comes is called Tathagata. coming of the way things are, or the way things are coming. That's the Buddha. And so the Buddha's coming to you all the time as the way things are. So we're very fortunate that the way things are are being delivered to us moment by moment.

[14:36]

never misses. We always get what's coming. And that's the Buddha. But we just don't say, this is it. And then we don't defile it. We just receive with no mind. This is non-abiding. But in a sense, this is half of being Buddha. The other half of Buddha is then we interact. Then in non-abiding our hand reaches out or a tear runs down our cheek or we say hello or we stand up and walk out. We respond. We interact. We ask a question. We make a statement from this place. It's not just non-abiding, it's non-abiding and then it's like some response.

[15:42]

So the Buddha doesn't just sit in non-abiding, the Buddha enters into the world with us and interacts with us. And one of the ways the Buddha interacts with us is to give us a form. So some people asked about, well, I thought, you know, Zen's about freedom from forms, I heard. I like that. What's all these forms doing here? And there's many reasons for the many good points of the form. You know, the Buddha gave some forms and then through history they've changed. So now, after all these centuries, we have some forms which weren't there when Buddha was there. We have new forms. But I think the main point of the forms that the Buddha has given us is to help us find our mind. and find out where we're grasping.

[16:52]

Without some forms, we might be meeting things not with no mind, but with grasping mind, or rejecting mind, or gaining mind, or hating mind, whatever. But we might not notice it, even though it's happening, unless someone gives us a form that's set up primarily to help us find our grasping. And if the form's too vague, which is a lot of daily life situations, the forms are kind of unclear what the forms are, we don't necessarily notice that we're grasping. Like for example, if you're in your house and you're like, you know, okay, I'm in my house and there's a refrigerator and it's got food in it and there's not a form, I don't have like a form about when I'm supposed to eat. Like I can eat anytime I want, so... Now I'm going to go eat. But eating whenever I want is a kind of form, but it's kind of indefinite.

[17:58]

When is anytime I want? So when do I want? So you don't necessarily check and say, well, now, do I really want to eat now or not? Or maybe you do, but you're not sure. Anyway, and also nobody comes into your house and says, you know, You're not following the schedule here, the eating schedule. They assume you can eat whenever you want in your house. So you don't notice that you're clinging to anything by your eating practices necessarily, unless you set something up. So now actually there's like... programs that people have who live in houses to set up programs so they can become aware of their greed and attachments around food, right? But if you go to a temple, they have food offered three times a day and other times, so then you can feel your grasping because it's a definite schedule.

[19:04]

And so that's why it's kind of nice, you know, to not be in a place like that, to be in your own house where you can eat whenever you want to. Because if you can eat whenever you want to, maybe you won't get like so greedy, you'll just go eat when you're a little bit hungry and that'll be fine, right? So in some sense, being in a structured situation like this isn't good for your health. Because since meals are offered like three times a day and maybe with some snacks, still, it's not necessarily like nonstop availability. So then you become aware of your greed, and in becoming aware of your greed, then you start to get upset, and then you maybe overeat because you're feeling so upset about the fact that you have to wait to eat. Many things can happen. This is not necessarily fun to see, but anyway, you get to see something because it's set up that way. And if it wasn't, you just wouldn't learn those things. Or like we have meditation at a certain time. And part of the reason why we do that is because people want to come and meditate.

[20:09]

Without going to a place where there's quite a few periods of meditation offered, this weekend some of you might not have meditated at all. By having a whole weekend which is set aside for meditation, in various forms, you've been meditating all weekend, right? because that's been set up. And it comes in these little packages of walking, sitting, and so on. So then they start at kind of a definite time and end at a definite time. So you can feel, you might be able to feel there's some like, some like, you know, kind of like, I think it's time for this period of sitting meditation to end. It would be good to end. I think it's time for it to end. I want it to end. You know, I really want it to end.

[21:14]

And matter of fact, anybody who interferes with it ending is my enemy. And her name is Elizabeth. What happened to Elizabeth? Huh? She's gone. She escaped before you got her. Sixty people hate Elizabeth now for torturing them Oh, there's Elizabeth. In the early days of Zen Center, when we had the sessions where we have lots of sitting, one of the students had this image of Suzuki Roshi as a kind of like, what's the word, we could say emissary or Maybe a better word would be avenging angel from Japan. The Japanese sent the Zen people over to pay us back for beating them at the wheel.

[22:21]

To gather these healthy Americans and put them in a room and make them sit all day. And in those days we used to hit them too if they went to sleep. So he thought it was a torture chamber set up by the Zen masters. forgot that he voluntarily signed up for it. So then the forms can turn into places where you feel all this stuff. You know you can leave anytime you want, you know that, but just somehow you forget, you think about it. These people are doing this to me. So all this kind of stuff you see coming up around these forms. And if we just said, come any time you want, sit as long as you want, and as soon as you feel uncomfortable, move or leave the room or take a walk or take a nap. If we did that, that's another way to meditate. It's perfectly fine, but would you become aware of your attachment if you could do it any time you wanted to? A little bit maybe, but not so vividly probably.

[23:26]

Not so vividly. So most of these forms allow you to see your clinging on those basically two styles of clinging. One is you resist the forms, and the other is you overindulge in them. You don't want to do them because you think they're whatever, or you do want to be the best at them. And now the best means better than other people. So some people, you know, like these forms because they're really good at it and that makes them the best person in the room or one of the best, right? This is clinging. Other people want to be like the worst. This is clinging. Other people want to be so-so. This is clinging. Other people want to be just right. This is clinging. All these different styles and approaches to the forms are your trip. Without the form, It's pretty hard for you to surface your trip because, you know, whatever man, right? So that's basically what they're for. But also, not only that, but because there's kind of a form, the teacher or other senior people can see the way we do them.

[24:39]

So they can see our resistance, too. They can see, oh, this person's really good at it, and this person's, like, going to be the worst at it. So the forms are also a way to meet and for the teacher to notice that you're resisting either by indulging or resisting, or you could say by acquiescing or rebelling. or whatever. This shows. So then the teacher can come up to you and say, well, why don't you try it this way? Or that way? And then you can like resist that too. Say, who do you think you are? Blah, blah. And so finally, what happens after many years of training is that The form is just a form. You're no longer doing it this way or that way.

[25:46]

You're no longer resisting or being good at it. There's just a form. And you've trained yourself so that you're not adding or subtracting anything to the form. And so you're free. The form helps you be free in that way. Some of the other forms are...not some of the other forms, but some of the forms also have some merit on their own, like putting things in rows has certain merits, but also just people sitting all over the room has a merit. It's just that putting things in a row offers a chance for people to resist things being in rows. But if we just had a big mess here and people had the seats all over the place, then people could resist. If that was the form, to not have rows, then people could say, you know, I wish we had rows.

[26:47]

But we don't have rows. We do not have rows. The form is no rows. So then the people who want rows could work with that. So everything, once we decide on the form, then everybody can have a problem with it. The people who like the cushions all over the room, they can really like that and be really good at making a mess. The people who like things tidy, they can resist that. When we have everything tidy, the people who like things more informal, they can think this place is really anal and fascist. Once we decide to form, then everybody can have problems. And if we change the form and flip it upside down, then everybody can have problems on the other side. So whatever it is, once we decide it, we're in trouble. And we'll face the trouble of our attachments. We get to see. So this weekend, most of us have had a chance to see something about ourselves.

[27:50]

That's really what the forms are about. Once they've done their job, you don't need them anymore. And that surprised Buddha. The Buddha said that one time. He said, I don't know how it came up, but anyway, somebody said to the Buddha, talking to him about the forms, the precepts, the Buddha said, these precepts are for you, not for me. I don't need them. And when you're Buddha, you won't need them either. However, even though you don't need them, you still might use them. So I don't know. It's kind of nice that some of the Buddhas keep doing the forms with us after they're Buddha. And actually there's a story, one of the Pali scriptures called Fear and Dread. It's number four in the Middle-Length Sayings. I like this one because it's one of the few scriptures where there's an Italian

[28:58]

his name is Senor Provasoli or something like that. Provasoli. Anyway, this monk comes to talk to the Buddha and asked the Buddha, he said, you know, are you like the leader of this group? And do your students kind of follow your example? And he said, yeah, I'm the leader and they follow my example. He said, well, like, did you like go out into the forest to meditate? It's like sit out in the forest sometimes in the dark. And he said, yeah. He said, well, isn't it dangerous out there? And the Buddha said, yeah. He said, weren't you scared? Didn't you have dread of like wild animals? And of course in those days they had demons and stuff out in the forest too. Weren't you afraid of all this stuff? He said, yeah, I was, except I found out that if I didn't move, the fear and dread dropped away.

[30:07]

So if I was walking through the forest and, you know, I hear some noises out there and I think some wild animals can attack me, if I felt some fear, if I was walking, I would just walk. and then the fear and dread would go away. If I was sitting and the fear and dread came up, I would just really completely sit and then the fear and dread would go away. If I was standing and so on, whatever I was doing, if I would just do that, the fear and dread would go away. In this way, I overcame fear and dread in the forest. And in this way, I did that practice so that other people could go out in the forest and learn that practice too, because they'd also be afraid, and they could learn also that by just doing completely what you're doing and nothing more or less, in other words, do whatever you're doing and meet whatever you meet with no mind, the fear and dread go away.

[31:15]

And then, but you've heard this before. This is another example of what I've been talking about, right? Does that sound kind of like the same thing? The reason I brought this story up was to tell you the end of the story, the end of the scripture. At the end of the scripture, Senor Provost Holy says, well, or maybe he doesn't say it. Senor Provost Holy says, uh, Well, maybe he doesn't say that. Maybe the Buddha said, and Buddha thinks. Now, I'm thinking that, you know, you might be wondering, people might wonder, if I'm the Buddha, how come I'm still going out in the forest and, you know, in dangerous places in the forest to meditate? People might think, isn't the Buddha beyond those forms? Isn't the Buddha beyond those practices? If you're really liberated, why do you have to keep doing these training practices that you used to do?

[32:28]

If the Buddha is liberated, they don't need the practices anymore. In fact, they don't need anything. They can do the practice They can do their realization. They can be a Buddha in any situation. They can be when they're sitting in the forest when the animal is attacking them. They can do it when they're in the hospital with the sickness. They can do it even when they're with their spouse. They can do it in any situation because they're married to all beings. That's their practice. So any situation they can practice. So how come you're still doing this thing that you used to do? And the Buddha said, the Buddha's thinking, you're probably wondering that. Am I really Buddha? Well, in fact, I really am Buddha, and I'm not attached to these forms, but I still do them. There's two reasons why I do them. One, it's because I like to. And two, to set an example for future generations.

[33:33]

So the Buddha puts these forms out there. In those days, the form they put out there was sit out in the jungle in the night with the monsters. Or also sit in the jungle in the daytime. Anyway, to sit, that was his form. They set that. He set the form which he doesn't need anymore. So we have an example. So we have an example. And then those forms changed because some places don't have jungles, so you have to do something different. But there's always a form that the Buddha puts out there for future generations. And sometimes the Buddha, in order to show the form, the Buddha gives the example to show how to do it. It's not like this is a form just for you. I like to do it too. So the Buddha does it. And the Buddha likes to do it too. So sometimes the Buddha might do it even if nobody's watching because the Buddha likes to. So in Zen we have sitting practice and walking practice and eating practice and so on.

[34:38]

We have these various practices which we continue to do even when we don't need them anymore just because we like to and also to give something for somebody else to work on. But we don't need them. We don't need, we can call it all off and just do something different. It's fine. But If we all just walked out of the room now and went all over Texas or all of the United States and did our thing, we wouldn't see each other, so we wouldn't be able to see the example we're setting for each other. So we get together in a group so we can see how we're doing and we can encourage each other. But we don't need this necessarily, but maybe for a while we do need it, so we do it. Okay? That's something about forms. That's not the whole story, but that's a little bit about the forms. Okay? Oh, and one more thing that's really important. I do kind of feel like Buddha doesn't take breaks from being Buddha.

[35:50]

I mean, sorry, Buddha's stuck being Buddha. You know, one time The chief of the demons, the chief of the devils came to the Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha, I guess. But this probably happens with a lot of Buddhas. The devils are the people who are like trying to distract people from practice, challenge them, you know, try to trick them into stopping practice. And if the devils can't do it, the Buddha will try. But usually Buddha says, Buddha says, please practice, and then devils come and challenge you so that you have to get good. Buddha says, no, keep trying, keep trying. Devils say, don't, don't, don't. Buddha says, try. Devils say, don't. Buddha says, this is good. Devils say, it's a waste of time. Buddha says, no, it really is good. Don't be afraid of those devils.

[36:52]

They're just trying to trick you. Devils say, yeah, that Buddha actually wanted to bark people. I'm here to tell you that guy's really, you know, so on. Anyway, they had this thing that they'd do, you know. In the old days, it was more kind of like public. Now, you know, we don't really tell you who the devils are. So you have them in your own head. I learned that in medieval Europe, I didn't realize, I thought devils were like, kind of like human size. When I was a kid, I thought devils were like, you know, approximately six feet tall or five, five-eight or something, you know. Maybe five-two, maybe four-eight, maybe seven feet. But you know, something like related to human body size. And maybe sometimes they got really huge. But what never occurred to me is that devils might be little. And in medieval Europe, Devils were generally seen as little, tiny. And they were tiny enough so a whole bunch of them could sit in your ear.

[37:53]

So you have all these little devils in your ear talking to you, saying stuff like, this meditation period is not really that important. Go to sleep. This practice is really stupid. Go do something different. These people here are not worthy companions. Get out of here. you know, blah, blah, blah, all these little devils. They're little tiny things in your ear. I thought, yeah, that's more realistic, actually. They're like wall station to give you, you know, all kinds of confusing instructions. They're not like standing out there, you know. But occasionally they are out on the street just saying stuff like, you jerk, you moron. You know, that's also a devil challenger to see if you can understand what that's about. So anyway, one day the chief devil came to the Buddha and said, I quit. I quit. I'm not going to do this anymore. I go around doing my job and, you know, everybody hates me.

[38:59]

Everybody thinks I'm this terrible thing. Here I am trying to do my job of distracting people and undermining their practice to get them to veer off the path of Buddhahood. And they never say thank you. Well, you say thank you. You and the other Buddhists say thank you, but nobody else says thank you. And they badmouth me and they write these books about me saying how terrible I am and people even want to eliminate me. Like there's this campaign to eliminate my work. to eliminate evil, to eliminate the indestructible principality, as Dostoevsky put it. You can't get rid of the devil. Now, the devil wants to quit. This was a dangerous time in the history of the world. The devil was going to quit and leave his kingdom unprincely And the Buddha said, you cannot quit.

[40:02]

I said, don't you think I like to quit? You're doing your job, and they don't appreciate you. I'm doing my job. I tell them to be Buddhas, and they refuse. They say, not yet. I'm not good enough to be Buddha, blah, blah, blah. I put my whole heart into trying to get them to practice the Buddha way, and they keep veering off, veering off. They fall for your temptations. I'm like a this is hard for me too but I'm not going to quit I'd like to quit too but I'm not going to quit I can't quit I can't because that's what I am I'm Buddha and you can't quit either so anyway Buddha can't quit Buddha can't take breaks there's no break in Buddha's meditation there's break in the devils can take breaks because that's part of their trick you know take a break But Buddhas can't take breaks. They're always Buddha. So if you're doing Buddhist practice, you don't take breaks.

[41:06]

However, Buddhas do rest. They do rest. But their rest is not a break from being Buddha. Their rest is a resting Buddha. And when they're resting, they're resting and they're like enthusiastically resting. They're like joyfully resting. And then when they get up from their rest, they're joyfully sitting up, walking around. Rest is part of Buddha's enthusiasm. You do rest. You do rest. Rest is practice. It's not a break from practice. It is an essential part of practice. So, rest when it's appropriate. And it is often appropriate to rest. Like music has rests in it. Right? Without rest, music wouldn't really be music. It would be like a torture. If it just went on and never rested, everyone would be trying to find someplace to get away from the so-called music.

[42:12]

But because music stops sometimes and starts again, it's good medicine. So same with practice. It should have rhythm. You shouldn't think that the practice, even though it's continuous, it has rhythm. It pulses. So you shouldn't try to have a practice that's just... It should go... Like that. The practice has risen. But the spaces are as important as the notes. They're part of it. So think about what kind of music you want your practice to have. When do you want to do a retreat and when do you want to do a non-retreat? It's all practice though.

[43:15]

So we have this little retreat and now it stops. And then we do another kind of meditation. And then we do another retreat. And then we do another kind of meditation. And then we do some practice there and we stop. So it's like that. So there's this breeze, you know. This thread of practice is always going. It's just a question of are you always listening to it? Are you always looking at it? It changes. all the time are you tuned into it all the time okay so if uh... if it if you someone maybe some of the people who have not

[44:17]

come up to meet, would like to come up to meet now for just a little while here. If anybody wants to... Catherine? Catherine? Yes, or Kathy. Which do you prefer? I've changed. You've changed? Lately. You have? You've changed lately? Mm-hmm. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? No, no, not yet. Not yet? Okay. And I wanted to meet and try this out. And I sort of have a question about meeting. You have a question about meaning? Okay. Try it and also maybe hear a little more about it. Something that I missed in what you were saying Thursday night.

[45:25]

Yes. And... How's the no mind? It's coming in. It's coming in? It's coming in. I'm giving it a pause. I'm giving it Giving it a pause. Are you ready? Almost. It has to do. My wondering right now is about... You can't hear it, can you? Okay, I'll talk a little louder. Her wondering is... I'm wondering. She's wondering.

[46:25]

It's hard. I'm realizing I don't know how to word it quite yet, and so I'm hoping it'll make sense as I go along. She's telling us of her hopes. She hopes that something's going to make sense. Yeah, gee, I hope so. Are you grasping that? No. You're not grasping it, okay. It doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't, good. But that's what, that occurred right then. Yeah. So, hmm. It's something I'd like... The reason I'm wanting to ask the question or be here, I guess, or the content of this is... Well, I just don't know how to say it. Well, maybe what you're doing right now is more important than it. It is, yeah. Maybe that laughter is really a good thing to offer me. Could that be?

[47:27]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay. Because that's, yeah, I mostly primarily just want to be in this spot. That's what I want, too, for us, for us to be here in this spot. Mostly and primarily, that's what it's about. And this brings me to my question. So you know you want to be here, or I might know I want to be here, or everyone here kind of knows maybe the intent to risk our truth. Yeah. Yeah. And I was wondering, you mentioned some kind of, okay, is it enough that, I mean, it is something, and I can see that this... Don't grasp, don't grasp, is it enough?

[48:29]

Okay. The question often arises in practice, is it enough? Yeah, okay. Don't grasp, don't grasp that question, and also sometimes it arises, it is enough. Don't grasp that either. Okay. There's the situation where I might meet someone, a human being. Yes, you might meet a human being. You know, now or sometime soon. How about now? Okay, I meet you now. Yeah. And I may have... Are you just here? No, because I'm thinking of this problem that I have from the other night, but I don't even know. Right. Okay, it has to do with marrying out. Do you have some problem marrying me right now?

[49:32]

Yeah, I want to know more about the vow thing. I want to try it. The vow thing? You know, making the declaration of marriage. What declaration? Versus just keeping it to yourself. All right, now what declaration would you like to make? Hmm. Are you ready to make a declaration? You are? Okay, what is it? It comes with tears. It comes with tears. They're lubricating it. Here it comes. I see. And then there's voices saying that's silly or don't say it.

[50:34]

Yeah, right. Don't say it, don't say it, don't say it. Little devils, I guess. Little devils. Yeah, okay, let it out. Here it comes. They're not going to stop it. Maybe they won't. It's nice of you to tell us about that, you know, accompaniment. So we know, you know, this is not, there's some comments on what she's about to say, this declaration that's coming. But sort of, okay, can I just say it? Yes, definitely. I want to say it like I mean it, but it's kind of hard. I'm just learning. Say it the way you can say it. Say it whatever way it first comes out. We can refine it later if necessary. Yeah, I just wanted to say I'm here for you. Your declaration is I'm here for you. Your declaration is I'm here for you. I'm here for you. That's a declaration.

[51:36]

I'm here. I hear it. And there might be a little demon out there saying you won't be able to keep this up You won't be able to do this in the future. You know, I'm here for you. I'm here for you. And I'm here for you, by the way. And if the devil says that I can't do that, I would say, you're right, I can't. I didn't do this. Mm-hmm. This is the gift of Buddha that we can talk to each other this way. It's not by our own power. This is the working of the Buddha that we can be here for each other. And we can say, even now, I'm here for you and I intend to continue the practice of being here for you. And by the way, I would like you to know I'm here for other beings too, infinitely.

[52:37]

Are you also here for everyone? Yes. Yeah, so we both want to be bodhisattvas. And it feels important to make the declaration. It is very important, and you did it. And you can do it again and again now. But it's important that you did it out loud, in public. There's a difference between saying things inside and outside. When you actually say them with your mouth that people can hear and with your body that people can see, it transforms the shape of your mind in a way that it creates a kind of structure in your mind in a way that just thinking it doesn't. So that's why we have ceremonies where we say out loud, I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. I vow to embrace and sustain all goodness. I vow to embrace and sustain the forms and ceremonies of Zen, if it's a Zen ceremony.

[53:42]

And embrace and sustain does not mean I vow to grip all beings. It doesn't mean I vow to own all beings. It means I embrace them and support them. I don't own them. And when I say it out loud, it's different than just thinking it. Thinking it's good, but saying it out loud creates another support in my mind, changes the shape of my mind. Permanently, it's a permanent, it lasts forever. And if it's these wholesome things, they grow and they get stronger. So once you make this commitment, it will come true that you will be able to do this, to be here for all beings someday. In other words, you'll be Buddha. Are you ready, Karen?

[54:52]

Please come. Would you tell me your name again? Nancy. Nancy. What's been coming to me this weekend, and it was completely unexpected, is... Can you hear her? What I've been meeting this weekend unexpectedly is sadness, like this really, really big sadness. Yes, that's quite common in retreats, unexpected sadness. And I thought maybe you could help me see how that's a gift of the Buddha. Sadness, the way I use the word sadness is that I distinguish it from depression. And for me, sadness, my experience with sadness, which is very closely related to grief, is that if sadness comes to me and I open to it and feel it completely,

[56:08]

which doesn't mean I feel all the sadness, it just means I feel as much as I can for the moment. In other words, I have no resistance to it. When I feel it, I'm refreshed. And what I understand sadness to be is that it's like an opportunity to feel something that I didn't feel fully before. When I lost something that I was not willing to let go, so you've lost your whole life up to this point and so have i we've lost our all those wonderful years all every good experience we've ever had is now gone and some of those things we weren't there for and didn't let go of we're still holding on to them and those things we're holding on to are dragging us down and dragging us away from our present fresh

[57:11]

life. So Buddha gives us sadness. And if we can feel the sadness, that refers to the clinging. And if we open to the sadness, opening our heart to the sadness opens our hand to let go of these things that are gone. So after feeling the sadness, you're refreshed and ready to face the new moment. Depression is more like arguing with losing something. Why did I do that? [...] Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to her? Why did it happen to her? Why me? Why me? It's complaining and arguing with something that you lost or something that didn't go the way you wanted to. But sadness is more like, if you're willing to feel sad, you'll be able to let go of this thing you've lost. So retreats are a time when your body knows, hey, we could open to the sadness now.

[58:19]

Now would be the time. So then Buddha gives it to you. Here's the sadness. I can't tell you what you're holding on to, but if you feel this, if you open to this, if you relax around this, you relax around that.

[58:32]

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