I'm a little dazed right now for some reason. I don't know why. Maybe it's from the pizza. But also I want to say that this class, I always feel easy about this class because the people who come here are so wonderful. This group of people is... Sort of like this group of people can't miss. And then we have this wonderful collection of stories. So it's pretty easy to have a good meeting. And at the same time, all the more fun is that

[01:03]

for me is that there's a matter of a kind of very sensitive and wonderful balance that's possible to look towards or or try to be close to that these stories are intimating. And we already studied this case 17 before, but I feel like this case is literally about the balanced approach to compassion so in a sense I'd like to spend a little bit more time on 17 before going to 18 to make clear what all what these cons are about

[02:25]

As I've mentioned a number of times, I offer this kind of slogan of the bodhisattva's path, which is to stay close and do nothing, to stay close to all sentient beings, and do nothing. Another slogan in Buddhism is the slogan of the founder of Buddhism, Do you know what the slogan of the founder of Buddhism is?

[03:42]

It's dependent co-arising. That was Shakyamuni Buddha's slogan. Do you know what the slogan means originally? It's a Scottish word. It means battle cry. The Buddha's battle cry is dependent co-arising or or mutual co-production, or cause and effect. So to stay close to all living beings, or to stay close to everything that happens in your life, and then to be absorbed in cause and effect, to be absorbed in cause and effect is what I mean by do nothing. Like, you know, can I play patty cake? Can you stand up, please?

[04:47]

I knew this was the best. You want him? Patty cake, patty cake, baker's man. Patty cake, patty cake. that's patty cake right so that's the that's what i propose like this is how to practice compassion was i i wasn't really doing anything she wasn't really doing anything do you know what i mean we're just playing patty cake and so like you go patty cake So you just do that, you know. It's not really doing anything because she does one thing, I do one thing, I do one thing.

[05:49]

It's just back and forth, you know. It's just like responding to each other. It's not like, you got a way, I'm going to play patty cake this way. If I do that, then what happens? You have some way to play patty cake, I have some way to play patty cake. What are we going to do, you know? So there's suffering in this world, and so we try to stay close to what's happening right around us, not run away from what's going on, and then interact with the situation. Again, I said this over and over, the famous story, the famous question of the great teacher Yuen Mun. A monk asked Yuen Mun, what was the teaching of Buddha's whole lifetime? And Yuen Mun said, an appropriate response.

[06:49]

Teaching of Buddha's whole lifetime is an appropriate response. Buddha's not sitting there, okay, I got this teaching, and here's a teaching for you people. Buddha arrives and meets beings, stays close, and when they go like this, Buddha goes like that, or whatever, you know, the appropriate response. But, you know, the Chinese characters for that, for what he said, is very interesting, because the Chinese character are... First character is one, second character... is face or meet, and the next character is teaching. So another way to translate it is rather than an appropriate response, another way to translate it is teaching while facing each thing. One of our ways to translate it is the teaching of oneness, but also teaching facing each thing. So the Buddha teaches by facing or responding to each thing.

[07:56]

This happens, Buddha responds. This happens, Buddha responds. Just responding to what appears. Again, this means to be absorbed in Buddha's basic teaching of dependent co-arising. We make the teaching together. According to the circumstances, we make the teaching happen, the truth happens. So the fact that we create the teaching and we create the way of liberation from suffering together is what I mean by do nothing. I don't do it. I don't stay close to sentient beings and do this thing called compassion. I stay close to sentient beings and we do compassion together. Both of us responding appropriately. So I propose that these stories are stories like that, are stories where two people or more are interacting, and the interactions are appropriate interactions, that they're interacting appropriately.

[09:09]

And so these stories are all stories of how wonderful and unpredictable compassion is. And for us to look at these stories and try to see how is compassion working? How is this working in this story? So an image I offer for practice and also to understand these koans is the image of a wind bell. hanging in emptiness, hanging in vast space. And I told people earlier, I have this poem written in the back of this rock suit. It says, Wind Bell is the name of the rock suit, I mean, the name of the poem. And it says, the whole body is like a mouth hanging in emptiness.

[10:17]

It doesn't care whether the wind blows from the north or the south, the east or the west. All alike, no matter what direction the wind blows from, it just sings. Pure wisdom. The practice of the compassionate being is that they hang in empty space and when the wind or the call or the smell, the light strikes the body, the body responds. The wind blows this way, the body goes this way. The wind goes the other way, the body goes this way. And that response is compassionate. The wind belt has no idea how far it will swing. If it's a big wind, it may swing farther.

[11:22]

If it's a little wind, it may swing a little bit. And when it swings, it makes a sound. Its chimes bump into each other. It makes a sound. And then it swings back and makes another sound. The wind belt does not know what its sound will be. Its sound is determined by the nature of the wind. that hits it and gravity and its own tissue, its own substance as a chime. Bamboo wind chimes will make a different sound from bronze, from ceramic, from wooden, from steel. Each of us is made of a different material. When the wind touches us, we will swing slightly differently and we'll make a slightly different sound, but it is appropriate that we make a different sound when the wind touches us. It is appropriate that we will not make the same response even to the same wind.

[12:22]

And also, the wind never touches any of us the same way. If I'm here and Pam is here, the wind comes blowing, but it hits us differently. It touches us differently. And it will be appropriate that when the wind touches her, she'll make a different sound than when the wind touched her. That's appropriate. It would be strange. Although sometimes it happens. It's wonderful maybe that we make the same response. Now, it's quite difficult for us actually to hang like a wind bell. to trust, and to be so still that we can see that appropriate response which we make every moment. Again, you do not have to work and plan to make this appropriate response.

[13:30]

If you intervene, if you try to control, if you try to program and manipulate yourself into making the correct response, that won't stop the correct response. Because in fact, if you or I try to manipulate ourselves into making the correct response, that is another wind. And there will be an appropriate response to that manipulation. The appropriate response to trying to manipulate yourself into making an appropriate response, the appropriate response will probably be that you will not be able to notice the appropriate response, because you're putting energy into manipulation, and you're also putting energy into not trusting yourself. Therefore, since you don't trust yourself, the appropriate response to not trusting yourself will be misery.

[14:30]

So you'll suffer, and that will be the appropriate response, but it will be hard for you to see and understand that that suffering is the appropriate response, although it really is. However, if you don't move at all, you sit completely still and abandon everything. Then, when the wind touches you, you will be able to see that that was exactly the appropriate response. But it's very difficult for us to trust cause and effect to that extent that we can be so still as to watch that everything we do is a perfect unfoldment of the causation of the universe. And that everything we do is a perfect teaching.

[15:35]

But anyway... The poem about the wind bell is suggesting that we practice that way. Okay, now this koan, 17, okay, is about this. A little background on this koan is that I'm saying that this koan's about this, okay? This koan is saying... that if you can hang like a wind bell, and when the wind comes and touches you, you can just let it touch you and respond like that, then the way is perfect and all-pervading. But if you mess around, even the tiniest bit If you have any agenda in addition to what's happening, if you have the slightest preference, the slightest like or dislike for the way the wind is coming, for how it's touching you, and for how you should respond, then the difference between the perfect response

[17:10]

The perfect compassion and what you're doing is as different as from heaven and earth. And this is taken from a number of sources, but the original one is a poem attributed to the third patriarch of Zen, which says that the great way is not difficult at for those who have no preferences. The way is not difficult for a wind bell. The way is also not easy for a wind bell. The way is simply what the wind bell does. Nothing more, nothing less.

[18:13]

The next line, it says, when love and hate are both absent, then everything becomes clear and undisguised. But a hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. And there's various measures between distance between heaven and earth. One measure is this is earth down here someplace, and heaven's up there someplace. That's one measure. Another measure of the difference between heaven and earth is from the bottom of my foot to the top of my head. That's another distance between heaven and earth. Heaven starts right here. Right here, that's where it starts. Goes from here up. Earth starts from the bottom of my foot down. The distance between heaven and earth is the size of a human being or any other living creature.

[19:20]

That's also the distance. In other words, the distance between heaven and earth is your life. In other words, your whole life is nothing but dedicated to separation. Your total being is nothing but separation, if you make the slightest preference. You may say, oh, six feet or five feet some inches isn't that big a difference between heaven and earth. But the point is that your entire life is nothing but separation, alienation, and misery from the slightest discrepancy. However, if there isn't the slightest discrepancy, then your entire body and mind are nothing but a union of heaven and earth. So this life is the way to cause separation, alienation, and suffering, or this life is the way to cause union, bliss, and compassion.

[20:33]

It all depends on, well, it doesn't all depend on that, it depends on more than that, but The thing that can make it or break it is that kind of preference. So when the wind blows, you think, I don't like north winds, and I'm not going to swing. In fact, you do swing. You do swing. You have no choice but to think. think that you don't want to, or that you'd rather not, or that you won't, that means you will miss the fact that you are. And when you miss your swing, you miss out on what you are, and you don't hear that the sound that you're making is the sound of pure wisdom. That's why you must be willing to completely drop everything, like a wind bell does, and sit completely still in emptiness, and then wait for the wind.

[21:44]

Wait for the call. When you drop everything, you can respond to the call. If you hold anything, you will to some extent hinder it. So this story is referring to that teaching, the teaching of the proper attitude with which to live in this world in compassion, which, as I'm saying, is to simply stay close and don't do anything, or to simply stay close and respond appropriately according to each circumstance. That's what this koan is about. And all these koans are about this proper attitude. Now, I almost said this takes care of everything, but this doesn't take care of everything. This attitude, this view, is essential.

[22:48]

But it takes more than just this view. In addition to this view, in addition to this correct attitude, you must also have the aspiration to benefit all beings. Just this view, although it's the correct view, is not sufficient. This view must be united with the correct intention or the correct aspiration, and that is to stay close. So the vow is to stay close to all beings, and then to have the right view means you don't do anything. The union of staying close to all beings and not doing anything, that does the job. So here's a story about two people staying close to each other. These are two good Zen students, two bodhisattvas, both of whom are totally dedicated to the welfare of all beings, who practice with all beings and who practice with the whole earth.

[23:56]

That's the kind of people who are in this story. One's name is Shu Shan. Shu Shan. And the other one's name is Fa Yun. Now these guys are also featured in case number 12. So if you look back in case number 12, these two guys, Xu Shan and Fa Yin, went and visited Ditsang. Ditsang, by the way, means Jizo, like Jizo Bosatsu, Earth Store or Earth Womb Bodhisattva.

[25:02]

So you can find out about these guys earlier in their career back in case number 12, but I don't want to get off on that right now. Maybe later. So here we have Fa Yun asking Xu Shan about this famous line from the Third Patriarch. A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. Okay, here it is. Now, this is like a wind bell asking another wind bell about what it means to be a wind bell. Okay, a hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand this? So Xu Shan says, a hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. Now this seems to me to be quite a good response. And also the commentators seem to like it too.

[26:06]

But no. Now, what the commentator says is when most people, these days if you go up to most people and you say to them, a hair's breadth difference is the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand this? Most people will either get into some kind of logical discussion about it, or they will sort of, what do they say, kind of dwell in non-striving. In other words, they'll respond to it by kind of playing cool. Be a cool wind bell. When the wind comes, kind of like, just sort of like, don't try too hard to answer it smart. Don't try to give a real good answer. The other one is like, think of a good answer. So people either get into like giving a real good answer, or they kind of feel like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'll just sort of like do the minimum. These two wind bells now, that's the usual way. Most of them have these agendas hanging on them.

[27:08]

like a little built-in guidance system on each one of the chimes to tell it how to respond, especially to this question. Actually, they had their program to have different responses to the different questions, right? Rather than just respond differently to the questions without some agenda about how to do it. But this guy didn't do that, he says. He didn't fall into... He didn't fall into those traps. He didn't fall into speculative thought. He quite evidently had the relaxation of mastery. Wind bells have the relaxation of mastery. Like if you take a windmill, you know, and like maybe some of them are hanging from chains or something.

[28:11]

And sometimes maybe the chains get flipped around in the wind and the chains get knotted up so the windmill may be hanging kind of funny. They master that. They hang just like they hang perfectly. They've completely mastered being themselves. So when the wind touches them, they have exactly the right response. So relaxed in being themselves. So can you be relaxed? Can you relax into being yourself so that when the time comes you can just respond? So just imagine that now. He says, a hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand this? A hair's breadth difference is as the difference between heaven and earth. Pretty good. So far, so good. But then Fa Yan says, how can you get it that way?

[29:14]

It's a good response, but so pure. How are you going to get it with such a... How's the windmill going to get it with just that simple, relaxed, appropriate response? How are you going to get it? Of course, you can say to yourself very quickly, there's nothing to get. What do you mean, how can I get it? Then you slip into scapula speculative thinking again. You're caught by the words. Still, how can you get it? Here comes some more wind. And he says, I am just thus. How about you? I like a Gershwin too. How about you? A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. And Shushan bowed. Now, if you look back to case number 12, you realize that when Shushan bows, this is quite an occasion.

[30:19]

Look back to number 12 and see what kind of a guy he is. Anyway, he was impressed, let me tell you. So there it is. Okay, I'll read the sort of the context and you say the words, all right? Ba Yan asked Xusheng, How can you understand? Hushon said, Five units said, How can you get it that way? Hushon said, If just us, what would God do? Now you have it, so keep it well.

[31:30]

Okay? See the difference between a windmill and not a windmill? See the difference? Pretty subtle, huh? Pretty subtle. So this is about the hair's breadth difference. The hair's breadth difference in the story. Can you see? Can you see the unique breeze of reality? Can you see it? Creation constantly working her lumen shuttle, incorporating the patterns of spring into the ancient brocade. Every moment, a new thread, a springtime thread included in this ancient brocade.

[32:40]

Does anybody know the verse of that song? I like, no, no. I like New York in June. How about you? I like a Gershwin tune. How about you? Huh? What? What? What? I like potato chips. [...] If anybody could find out the words to that song, please write them down and give it to me.

[34:29]

So would somebody get it for me? Thank you. Also, here's another one I want the lyrics to. When an irresistible force such as me meets an un-immovable object like you, that as sure as you live, something's gotta give, something's gotta give, something's gotta give. I don't know the rest. Anybody know it? Huh? No. It could be. Does anybody know the rest of it? I need a nap for you, too. Thank you. Oh, we've got a good nap. Now, the introduction to this story is like a pair of solitary wild geese flat on the ground.

[35:41]

and fly up high. A couple of Mandarin ducks stand alone by the bank of a pond. Leaving aside for the moment the meeting of arrow points. What about when a saw cuts a scale beam? Okay, so you know the story about the arrow points meeting? You know the story? Well, there was a famous archer And he was very good, and he figured out one time that he was the best archer in China except for one person who happened to be his teacher. So he decided that if his teacher was dead, he would be number one. So he asked his teacher to have an archery contest. So they stood opposite each other, and he tried to shoot his teacher. So he shot his arrow, and then his teacher shot his arrow.

[36:50]

And the arrow points met in midair and dropped to the ground. And when they hit the ground, there was more dust, which is an unusual thing in China, I guess. This is called arrow points meeting in midair. And I think after that, the disciple decided that he didn't want to kill his teacher after all. But leaving that aside. Okay? Let's leave that aside. That's pretty neat, right? Now we're talking about what about when you cut the balance beam? What's the balance beam about? A scale, right? Things are balancing, right? Got this hair's breadth difference here, right? And there's various ways to see this. One way is there's a balance beam, and then sometimes they have a balance beam going across between them, and then there's a thing sticking up like this, right?

[37:55]

That sort of, you can calibrate the difference by which way it goes. Okay, what about that? What about when you cut the balance beam? Weighing things, carrying things. Right. So what's it like when you cut the balance beam? It's relaxing. They fall. What? What? Thank you. Yeah, that's right. It ruins the metaphor. Just a second, I'm trying to find something here that also goes with this.

[39:31]

Where's that thing about the hook? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. After all, it finally reverts and gives up to my zero point. Get the meaning on the hook. What's the hook? What's the hook? What's hanging on the hook? Huh? The balance beam's on the hook, right? Yes. Let's try that. Either the balance beam's on the hook, and you cut the balance beam at the hook, or the hook's like this, hanging down like this, and the balance beam's across like this.

[40:37]

Either way. I don't care too much whether the hook's up here and the balance beam's across or whether the hook's down here and the balance beam's down here. Either way, the point is get the meaning. Is it the meaning? Get the meaning on the hook where the balance beam is either hanging or you cut the balance beam now, okay? And you get the meaning on the hook. No? What? Yeah. That's another word. You can draw that one. You want to draw it on the board so she can see what you mean? I don't know. I don't.

[41:38]

It's a draw. I think it's going to work however we do it. Is this like a purchase? Yeah. So you have to seal. You have to rope. I wish you put this in, but what it is, is that this is what... There's another commentary that says, everywhere they say, get the meaning on the hook, don't go by the zero point. The zero point is where it balances. Actually, maybe take the things that are absolute and don't look at them in reference to something else. Like you have weights on this side, which are the reference to that. Maybe just look at it, look at the meaning of this thing, just right here, don't even look at the other side. If you had the needle at the top giving you the zero point, but the real meaning is on the hook, down here.

[42:40]

That could be off up there. Is this an important point? I kind of feel like it gets us into another layer of this story, this thing about the scale and the hook and the balance beam and the zero point. You just have to give it its weight. I'm a guest here, and I came here to unstress, because I always get hooked on follow-up. I go around in circles, assessing, analyzing, trying to figure it all out, and that's where I get hooked. So I don't know if that has anything to do with this, but I always get hooked. Yeah, that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about, particularly we're talking about people who are dedicated to the welfare of others but get hooked in the process and then kind of get burned out, stressed and burned because

[44:06]

because of this hair's breadth difference. So anyway, what's it like when you cut the balance beam? How is that? No more measuring. Well, it seems to me that if there's no more measuring, then that's another hair's breadth difference. OK. To cut out measuring, to cut out the scales, to have no more scales, then we'd be in a different universe. We'd have to change the universe a little bit.

[45:12]

So I think, again, that if that's what happens, then we've got the big difference again. So I'm not saying that you can't do that. I'm just saying that that would be another world of suffering, if you have a world without scales. We'll come through here and take all the people, like our guest here, and we'll say, well, you doing calculations? You done a hook? Okay, we'll get rid of her. So that doesn't work. So I would propose that that's not it. Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's just her, but she's so amazing in this phrase about Manjushri. And I think the phrase goes, so, Manjushri's sword slashing through, leaving one homeless. This seems to say something. Right, so the balance beam is cut.

[46:13]

Can you see that balance beam cut? And that cutting gives you wholeness. Somehow there was that once. There was the cutting through this balance beam and the result was wholeness that came from that. But what's that homeless like? I'm suggesting, and this diversity, diversity is really wonderful in this world. Let's not get rid of some of the people in this group that don't agree with the rest of us. Let's keep the, let's keep the, let's keep us all. Let's stay close to everybody. Yeah. Yeah, so now I hear a suggestion that what happens when you cut the balance beam is things come alive.

[47:19]

And how is that? How is that, when things come alive? Because the wind and the bell meet. Huh? The wind and the bell meet. The wind and the bell meet, and then we get some music out of the deal. It seems to cut the data's name. You must go through the zero's point and know the zero point, which is unmoving. I remember in analytic chemistry, you took your measurements.

[48:25]

You never got to the zero point. Your measurements were always on either side until the movements on either side were... You couldn't wait more than that. It could never get still. Because you've had a time limit? Well, the time limit, like, was infinite. How long could you wait? So you wanted to pass? Yeah, finish the experiment. Yeah, the next experiment. Anyway, I think that's part of what we're talking about here is realizing stillness and vitality. These two things, stillness and vitality. Stillness and vitality. Yes. It seems to me that there really isn't such a thing as balance or stillness. In stillness, there's tremendous movement, but it's coming closer.

[49:27]

You know, it's like the analytic chemical balance. You never hit the zero point. You never balance. You never hit stillness. So in some ways, cutting the VV is just me indicating that. It's doing away with the illusion that there is such a thing as stillness. Sort of rolling out. Uh-huh. And what's that like when that happens? What about that? Very liberating. And what about that? Just this way. This way? I feel like this class is so big, and right now is a time to make sure that everybody's participating.

[50:36]

seems like this is a time for, maybe not, but it's almost like it's a time for everybody to think about, or not think about, but see, are you ready to answer the question, how are you going to get it this way? Do you know what I mean? You do? In other words, I feel like now is time for people to come forward and do something. But maybe I'm wrong, and maybe you want to ask more questions first. What is the it that we're getting? Where did that come from? I don't know. End of dialogue. You want to start over? Yeah. Okay. You have to have a mention of this, because they're getting it. Where did that come from?

[51:44]

How can you get it that way? What is it? Oh, it's... I forgot what it is. See, he says... How do you understand that? And then he says that. And then he says... I guess, how can you get understanding? He says this, he says, how do you understand? Then he says that, which is right on. Then he says, how can you get it that way or this way? How can you get understanding with that? How can you make it alive with that? What do you think? Think that's the right answer to your question? Well, I don't know if it's right or wrong. It's an answer.

[52:48]

Is it the appropriate answer? Huh? It is? Are you happy? Uh, more than I was before. Yeah, but are you happy? Yeah, reasonably. I mean, not as opposed to unhappy. Not as opposed to unhappy? Yeah, for me and my wife. I'm happy. You're not unhappy, but are you just, aside from unhappy, are you happy, just regular happy? I don't know. Oh, okay. Are you joyful? You know I'm not sick. I'm just sick. Oh. Where have you been sleeping? Not bad. Where is that? Oh, that's where you've been. And it hasn't been unhappy, but it hasn't been very conscious or here or there. It's kind of like drifting in other worlds or clouds or something.

[53:53]

So how are you going to get it that way when you're sick? Do you want to play some more? Yeah. Well, um... Are you sad about that? The way you feel now? It's kind of like I'm a vapid. Huh? It's kind of like I'm a vapid. I mean, I said... What? I didn't ask you that.

[55:01]

I'm just saying... I'm asking you... You sound kind of depressed. Are you depressed? Well... So... All these things are so comparative, you know, like I'm upset. I mean, I'm upset. There are tons of things I'm upset about. Yeah, but then I know, but then I asked you, how are you going to get it that way? In the midst of this kind of situation, how are you going to get it? And then you said you just didn't know. So... It sounds like the situation you're in is... I'm wondering about the situation that you're describing. There you go, now I heard something. See the difference?

[56:02]

Do you see what you just did? You finally put yourself in the room. Now, want to go further? Oh, yeah. Did you feel that, folks? He finally said what he wanted. The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you. Don't go back to sleep. You have to say what you really want. Don't go back to sleep. So what do you want, really? You want to be here? I want to be totally alive. OK. That's good. Now we're getting warmer. Anybody else want to be totally alive? Some people are so alive they couldn't raise their arm.

[57:15]

And now, how are we going to be totally alive? We already are. We already are. That's true. Just because. Just be thus. Okay? How about you? Me too. Okay, is there anything more we should talk about tonight? Yes? This is a story that happened to you, or you heard about this story? No, it's really... It's a thing that I've done. Oh, yeah, right. So if somebody was sick, and somebody came to visit them, and the person who was sick said, I'm really sick, and the other person said, you're really sick?

[58:23]

It's like, you know, you roll over and then you go, oh, God, did you feel sick? And then suddenly you get to the point of realization, oh, I'm really sick. All right. All right. Good, that's good. Because see, yeah, it's like, you know, I say, I'm a rep, and then you say to me, you're a rep, and then I understand what I meant. Something like that. So here's a story, the same story again. So in the commentary on this case, okay, in the story here.

[59:26]

So this guy, the same guy, Fa Yun, okay, he broke down Superintendent Zhe. who was there upon enlightenment. So here's the story. Superintendent Zhe was staying with Fa Yan, right? And Fa Yan asked him, who have you seen? And Shren Zhe, Superintendent Zhe, Shren Zhe said, I saw Master Ching Fung, and Fa Yan said, what did he say? And Xuanzi said, I asked him, what is a student's self?

[60:32]

And Ching Fung said, the god of fire comes seeking fire. And Fa Yan said, how do you understand this? And Shrenza said, the god of fire is in the province of fire. To seek fire by fire is like seeking the self by the self. Fa Yan said, even understanding this way, how could you get it? And Shrenza said, I am thus, I don't know what your idea is master. And Fa Yan said, Oh, excuse me. This is abbreviation, sorry. Okay. So here's how the story goes. This guy, Zhe, is studying with Fa Yan. And Fa Yan says, who have you seen?

[61:34]

And Zhe says, I've seen Master Ching Feng. And he says, what did he say? And Sarah says, I asked him, what is the student's self? And Ching Pong said, the god of fire seeks god of fire. And Fa Yun asked him, how do you understand this? And Tse said, the god of fire is in the province of the god of fire. To seek the god of fire is like seeking the self of the self. And Fa Yun says, just as I thought, you don't understand at all. And so he got really angry and left. And after he'd walked some time, he thought, well, gee, I wonder why Fa Yan said that.

[62:41]

Actually, he's the teacher of a lot of monks, so maybe he has a point. Maybe I'm being too hasty. I'll go back and ask him again. So he went back and he talked to Fa Yan again. And Fa Yan said, Well, ask me. Ask me again about this. So, Suh says, what is a student's self? And Fa Yan says, Fire God comes seeking fire. And Suh was enlightened. That's like the story that Ana is told. Could you follow that, or was that too complicated? Could you follow it? Good. What?

[63:45]

Pardon? I didn't follow it. Okay. So... Want to do it? Want to try to do it? Okay. So, who have you seen? I saw Master... You don't have to find your place. I'll just tell you what to do. Okay. Who have you seen? I saw Master Ching Fung. You say that. I saw Master Ching Pong. What did he say? He said, oh, I asked him, what is the student's self? I asked him, what is the student's self?

[64:49]

And what did he say? He said, fire god comes seeking fire. You say that. He said, fire god comes seeking fire. How do you understand that? And you say, the fire god is in the province of fire. And to seek fire by fire is like seeking the self by the self. You say that. Fire God. Even understanding this way, how could you get it? And you say, I am just thus. What is your idea, Master? You say that. Just thus.

[65:54]

What is your idea, Master? What is your idea, Master? Just as I thought. You don't understand at all. Now you get angry and leave. Okay? Why don't you leave? And then after you leave, you think, what do you think? You think what? I think maybe this guy really knows something. Yeah, so you come back. And you say what? Well, you said, tell me you came back. Tell me you came back now, okay? Tell me about coming back.

[66:56]

Yeah. That's right, you come back to ask me again, so ask me. Just like you asked last time, what was your original question? What is a student's self? What is a student's self? The God of fire comes seeking fire. Now you get enlightened. Hey, do you want to do the whole story now? I'm not sure I'm doing anybody any good. I don't know. You know... I'm not sure it's doing anybody any good either. Should we do something that is doing somebody some good?

[67:58]

What would do somebody some good? Hmm? What would be helpful? Huh? That would be helpful. Want to try that? That might be helpful. Yeah, are you in the mood? Not really. I'm kind of nervous. It's a loss, but... Maybe you should do it. Can you come back? Why does the student suck? Oh, no, it's two of you. I tried. Okay, so what is the hair's birth difference?

[69:15]

What is it? We probably can't, maybe we can't talk about what it's like when the balance beams cut. What about, what is the hair's birth difference? Maybe we can talk about that. Words. Well, yes, but some more. What's the hair's... Trying to control. Trying to control. Thinking there's a self. Thinking there's separation. Judgment. Thinking there's an illusion. Thinking there's liberation. Thinking. So, if there's a hair's breadth difference, then we're going to have this big separation, right?

[70:19]

And is that okay, then, to have this hair's breadth difference, and then we have this distance? Is that right? No? Why not? Is that another hair's breadth difference there? Was that a hair's breadth difference there? It's more of a hair's breadth difference. Yeah, right, but I mean, originally, this hair's breadth difference. Mm-hmm. Huh? I forgot. It's not all right because then there's suffering. It's not all right. Who said it was all right? I don't know. I thought that was the question. Having an object of thought. Having an object of thought, yeah, right. It's not all right because there's suffering. Right. It's actually a problem. It's a problem. Is that your book? Yeah. It's a nice drawing. Okay. Measure it. Hmm?

[71:21]

You can't measure it. You can't measure it. Is that a hair's breadth difference that you can't measure it? Well, I'm confused in the last part of this thing with the scale, and it seems pretty clear that here's the deviation at first, is where the scale, the needle on the scale, where we cut. just the slightest amount of difference in the weight between the two cans. So, you know, they go together, they have one pound on each side, and one pound is one gram plus one pound, and the needle can move off to zero point on its tail. So, it's like, at first I thought it was a, You know, the whole metaphor was about if you just say, well, I like the left hand more than the right hand, or your life is sort of like focused to the left or to the right rather than the whole picture, then your life's always going to be out of balance.

[72:26]

That's the real meaning of life is, you know, whether the needle is on the zero point, not how much is on the left hand or how much is on the right hand. And then it seems after establishing that metaphor that the real importance is to have things balanced. Then it says, well, what if you cut the scale game so the scale doesn't work anymore? And the only thing I can make of that is that But then, you know, if you can just live your life naturally, whether there's too much on the left hand versus the right hand or whatever the imbalance is and take the total picture as an imbalance that somehow you can transcend, you know, still be able to flow even in a, or still be able to maintain your in touchness with

[73:30]

Whatever the situation is, it's all screwed up. But then we're not talking about a hair's breast deviation. To me, a hair's breast deviation is still stuck in that metaphor of the needle on the skin. And I thought it didn't mean anything to me. The scale metaphor is very important. Well, it doesn't mean anything unless the scale measures... Yeah, it seems... No, it isn't tied to that necessarily, no. So that's where I lose it. No, the hair and breath deviation, the scale metaphor is just to try to help us get a feeling for it, but hair and breath differences, we just mentioned some other hair and breath differences. For example, when you... Every time you have an experience... Okay? If you have the slightest dislike of the experience, that's a Hare's Breath difference. If you have a slightest like of the experience, that's a Hare's Breath difference.

[74:33]

Like right now, we have this class, okay? And so probably during this class, especially in the last few minutes, probably some of you have given rise to some like or dislike for what's happening to you in this class. Is that right? Didn't you? One person didn't, but several people did. Huh? Pardon? You didn't have any slightest like or dislike. So two of you didn't have any kind of discrepancy, so two of you didn't have this separation between heaven and earth. But for the rest of us, or probably the rest of us who were making some slight, like I was myself, like I was thinking this class was kind of going to the dogs. And I was getting worried that somebody was going to blame me for it. Or some of you innocent bystanders probably figured that you wouldn't be held responsible for this. So you can just sit there happily and let it be a lousy class and say, well, you know, that's his problem.

[75:39]

Yeah. So it's the slightest like or dislike, the slightest preference. Has there been a moment in this class when you would have preferred that it was going differently, that you were getting a little bit more information or less information, or that it was... Well, that's great that some of you are so enlightened. Enlightened people, please go to this side. Is it enlightened or brain dead? Yeah, it's in the back. in our nation to have preference and to like and to dislike? Yeah, that's hard. And if so, how does one work with that in a way that doesn't create just one further alienation?

[76:55]

One more rule that you shouldn't be, you just have that lack of discipline. One more, yeah. Well, so let's say you just said it was our nature to do that, right? Right. So, and then is it possible if that's our nature to do that too, then accept that and not fight that it's our nature to do that? Is that possible? Yeah. And also, if it's possible to accept that it's our nature to be that way, it may not be our nature to be that way either. Even. As a matter of fact, it may be possible that we don't really make any preference even in the first place. That it's not really a preference. So to some extent, you could say it is our nature to make preferences, but then we can accept that we can actually not have a preference that we weren't that way, that we weren't a person that made preferences. We could do that.

[78:00]

And the reason why we can do that might be because actually those preferences which we think we're making are not really being made, that we're really not making preferences. Okay. So you said, given what you said, you said maybe it's our nature to make preferences, okay? But then isn't it possible that we could accept that? In other words, not prefer that we weren't that way. Isn't that possible? I think, I propose it is possible. Now, if it is possible, then I would say that part of the reason why it's possible, or maybe the reason why it's possible, is that the preferences which we think we're making are not really being made in the first place. In other words, that we don't really prefer something other than this. That actually, we prefer this, not something other than this. And if we prefer something else, it's not really that we prefer something else. It's just that we like to think that we prefer something else. It is not really our nature to prefer something else.

[79:05]

It is our nature not to prefer something else. It is our nature to prefer this. That's our nature. But it is also our nature that we think we prefer something else. But really, we don't prefer something else. In fact, we don't even prefer to be someone other than somebody who thinks they prefer somebody else, or even willing to be a person who prefers not to be this. That's how much we thoroughly prefer this. And not only that, but in this class, which we don't like, which we did, okay, we prefer to be a person who isn't enjoying the class. That's who we prefer. We prefer to be somebody who wishes it were different. Somehow, it is possible to keep reawaking to the one who actually is not trying to be different from this. There is somebody who is here the whole time, who has been sitting through this class. Actually, there are several of those creatures who have been sitting through this class.

[80:09]

About 50 people have been sitting through this class completely unmoving, completely accepting, the whole time. There's one who's not busy? There are several here in this room who have not been busy the whole time. And there's also been several here who have been totally busy the whole time. And our nature is these two, is that we have these preferences and we have these non-preferences. And we sort of have to figure out the harmonious dance between these two. And I think, you know, I congratulate you people. Yes? Something I thought at various times this evening was one of my favorite philosophers said that there's one thing of which you can both say is a meter and it isn't a meter. And that's the standard of a meter that's kept hermetically sealed in the Bureau of Standards in Paris, France. So it's sort of like a balance beam or weighing or whatever our standard is.

[81:14]

That's the thing we can both say it is and it isn't. Whatever we set up as the standard. Whatever we set up as the standard, yes. We can say about that both that it is and that it isn't. The meter that defines meter is a meter. Yes. It's by definition. But it isn't because there's nothing to... There's no other meter to measure against this. Yes, it is a meter. Right. So whatever we set up as the standard, we can both say it is and it isn't. Yeah. So there's the zero point. Right. Another way to put it is that the fact that a meter is a meter includes or implies both... that it is not a meter. The very fact that a meter is a meter is why a meter isn't a meter. And the very fact that we have preferences are why our preferences are not preferences. And why we are then released from our preferences.

[82:21]

Yes? Excuse me asking all these questions, but I feel like there's something in here about place between sensation and craving, and that you can feel... Well, actually, I didn't want you to approach that. Could you please relate a little bit to that? Sensation and craving? Feel between sensation and craving. Yeah. So, the Buddhas have sensations, Enlightened beings have sensations like they have positive and negative sensations, but they don't have craving. Why don't they have craving? Because when they have a sensation, they notice the fact that the sensation is a sensation. And when they notice that a sensation is a sensation, they notice that that's precisely why the sensation is not a sensation. Therefore, they do not have craving. They are released from preferences about the sensations by realizing emptiness of the sensations.

[83:32]

But the way you realize emptiness of the sensation is by noticing that the sensation is the sensation and nothing but. That's the way. So on some level you have no preference. You actually don't prefer that the sensation was different from the sensation. And by letting the sensation be the sensation, you are released from the sensation. But if you don't recognize the fact that the sensation is the sensation, then you think the sensation is the sensation, and then you will for sure have craving either to get rid of it or hold on to it. So again, the key is that something, some part of us, some very wise part of us, lets things be the way they are. And letting things be the way they are shows us that things aren't the way they are. They are always empty of what they appear to be.

[84:36]

But the only way you can realize that they're empty of the way they appear to be is if you let them be the way they appear. In other words, stay close to them and don't do anything. And then you'll be released from these things. But how boring. That's why somehow we have to do these other... That's why we also have to do other practices in association with the practice of leaving things alone. So these practices are the practices of right attitude. And these practices must be coupled with practices, for example, of enthusiasm. So sometimes, somehow, you have to make yourself extremely happy about doing a practice so useless as this. You have to generate brilliant enthusiasm and joy about the idea of letting things be.

[85:45]

and several other practices too, but that's one that you have to get very enthusiastic about. Because this is very boring to do unless it's extremely fun. Because you're certainly not getting anything out of this except liberation. But you don't get the liberation until you're willing to do nothing about things. So how can we be enthusiastic about this practice? That's why you have to practice these other perfections of giving, ethics, patience, and enthusiasm, along with this practice of right attitude. So, this koan is emphasizing the right attitude about what's happening, but this must be accompanied by these other practices. which give a lot of positive energy and joy, so that this practice somehow isn't boring. So the path of peace, the path of peace is like this, is like we're describing here.

[86:54]

It is this path where you do not prefer something other than this. However, in order to, practically speaking, live that way, it has to be fun. But it's not fun by jazzing it up. It's not fun by manipulating it into something else. Because it is basically, in itself, just what it is. And the fact that it's just what it is, is exactly why you're released. How can that be as much fun as jacking things around? That's why you have to do these other practices. Now this class, technically speaking, is not about these other practices of giving, ethics, patience and enthusiasm. But maybe this class has to be about that a little bit, for you to understand how one could spend one's time dedicated to such an enterprise as leaving things alone.

[87:56]

How could that be fun? I wonder about in the beginning when you said, you know, setting the arrow points to slide and arrow points in. It seems to me that another way to do it, which maybe it's contradictory to what you're saying, but, you know, something comes up, precision and quality and energy of that arrow point coming this way, is met by precision, quality, and the total energy of moving being coming this way and meeting right there, you know, like airplanes meeting. It's more exciting. Yes, but it's not by not doing anything that it happens. It's by doing everything that it can that it happens. When you do everything you can, okay, that's what I mean by not doing anything. Because on the surface, by not doing anything, it's kind of like resignation.

[89:03]

Not resignation, but it's like, okay, I'm just going to... Maybe it's like non-striving. Yeah, right. There's something... Okay, so here's... It's turning away. Yeah, it's not like that. It's not that kind of non-doing. That would be... That would be a special kind of doing, that one would be. I would still be doing something. Really not doing anything is not even that. The critical point for me, at least, is no narrow voice need. It's having that happen. No turning away, no separation. No. That's it. Why not? Well, it can be that, but it's not any more that than missing. When they miss, it's just as much as it is when they hit. Well, missing would be not being there. It has no sign.

[90:05]

It has no sign. It has no quality. It doesn't require anything. But it doesn't require the will to be present. What? It doesn't require wholehearted will to be present right in the moment. Doesn't what require the wholehearted will to be present? You know, the light. When you say... Dharma doesn't require anything other than what's happening. Yeah, but we're starting out at a point from our separation, so... From that point of no separation, I mean, you know, I didn't get to the point where, you know, there's a hair's breadth deviation to where there's no deviation. Something has to happen. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, from the absolute viewpoint, that's right. You know, it doesn't require anything. But still, we have to do something.

[91:08]

Yeah. Yeah. So what does that stop me? I don't know. Well, what I'm trying to propose is that something is being there, complete. Yeah. Am I not making sense? That makes sense to me, in my experience, but I don't know if I'm relating it very well. Well... Hmm... I think the problem is the class was over a while ago and you kept talking after it was over. So, since it was over, it's sort of like what you were talking about didn't connect to reality. When was the class over? It was over a little bit after nine. And people started leaving because they thought it was over. And then you started asking questions, and a lot of other people stayed because they didn't want to leave.

[92:16]

But the class was over. So your questions were kind of like for another week or something, or for last week. I think that's what happened. I think so. That's my theory anyway. I don't know. That's what it seems like. So you asked the question at the wrong time. The question you asked should have been asked maybe an hour or so ago. I think that's what the problem was. You were so slow to respond to the wind that when you finally came back, everybody had left. Yeah, why don't you... Yeah, try to be faster. Right. I think that would be helpful. Great.

[93:05]

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