We're going through a collection of 100 cases of Zen stories which were compiled in the Sung Dynasty in China by a man named Hung Jur. Now, will other people record on this too? Yeah, they will. It will? Maybe when there's discussion, I could put it out a little bit. Would that help to put it out? Yeah. And that's Fu that just came in. You can sit up here, Fu, if you want. And Hongzhi Zhengzhui is an important Zen teacher in our lineage.

[01:05]

He's not directly in our lineage, but he's like a Dharma brother to one of our ancestors and also therefore a Dharma uncle to others. And so I made this plan to study this book, to go through this book, one after another until the book is done. And so we'll see what happens. And the reason why I want to do this is because I love these stories and I want to just be intimate with them. And studying with other people encourages me to get intimate with them. Seems like other people also want to become intimate with him, so we help each other study them in some depth.

[02:09]

So we've been studying case, we're on case 15, and I forgot new people were joining this class, and we made case, we made copies of case 16 for those who don't have the book. And so you can pick those up at the end of class. or we may even get to it this week. We'll start that next week, I think. Case 15, however, I don't have copies of. I'm sorry for those of you who are not familiar, but I'll read it to you, because we're not quite done with Case 15. Thank you. So Case 15 is called Yangshan Plants His Ho, and the introduction says, Knowing before speech is called silent discourse. Spontaneous revelation without clarification is called hidden activity. Saluting in front of the gate, walking down the hallway, this has a reason.

[03:17]

What about dancing in the garden or wagging the head out the back door? That's the introduction. And then the case is Guishan asked Yangshan, where are you coming from? Yangshan said, from the fields. Guishan said, how many people are there in the fields? Yangshan planted his hoe in the ground, clasped his hands and stood there. Guishan said, on South Mountain there are a lot of people cutting thatch. Yangchang took up his hoe and went. And the verse is, old enlightened ones, feelings are many.

[04:25]

He thinks of his descendants. Now he repents of setting up a household. We must remember the saying about South Mountain, engraved on the bones, inscribed on the skin, together requiting blessing. So some people here have read this commentary that's in addition to this and many verses along the way. Maybe a little commentary.

[05:47]

Reading the commentary might be okay. Commentary on the case. And I'd like to say something about commentaries that we read here. Please don't feel offended by these commentaries. Don't think that you have to agree with these commentaries. They aren't for you to think, oh, that's what it means. I don't feel that way. This is just one... person's feeling about these cases now the person who compiled this who compiled this collection is not the person making the commentary the person making commentary is another zen teacher who lived in the sung dynasty 50 to 75 years later than the first person who compiled these cases this is his feeling about the cases he's a noted zen teacher but don't be uh Don't be a slave of this person's comments. And yet, it's something to listen to.

[06:50]

So he says, teacher and apprenticed join ways. Father and son complement each other, each other's actions. The family style of Gui and Yang is a guide for a thousand ages. And... I would also like to say that later in the commentary on the verse, it is said that thus we know that lord and minister, father and son, was not particularly a teaching device first established by Dung Shan and Tsao Shan. Father and son, Gui and Yang, had already carried out this order.

[07:54]

This is referring to the Julemir Samadhi, which we chant regularly. And at the end of the Jomir Samadhi it says, practice secretly working within, so a fool like an idiot. Before that it says, a minister serves his lord, a son obeys a father. Not obeying is not filial and not serving is no help. Practice secretly working within like a fool, like an idiot. If you can keep this up, this is called the teacher within the teacher. So they're referring here in this commentary to that part of the poem where it says, a minister serves the Lord, a son obeys the father. And they want to point out in this commentary that this relationship between the father and the son, between the lord and the vassal, was not first established by these people.

[09:08]

But here, Wei and Yang are playing out the same story of minister and lord, son and father, father and son. Now, in a way, what you have here is just regular Chinese Confucian ethical teaching, right? Children should be filial, filial to their parents. Sons should obey their fathers. Daughters should obey their fathers. And ministers should obey their lord. But this... ethical standard is actually used as a teaching device. It's talking about something else too. It's talking about something else which has a relationship like this.

[10:09]

And so here Gui and Yang are playing this out. And how do you play this out? You practice secretly working within as though a fool, like an idiot. That's how you do this thing of father and son or daughter and father or daughter and mother or whatever. It's a family style. Both Gui and Yang and Deng Shan and Cao Shan. Gui Shan asked Yang Shan, where are you coming from? And the commentator says, could Guishan not have known Yangshan had come from the fields? He was just using this question to have a meeting with Yangshan. Yangshan didn't turn away from the question put to him, simply saying, from the fields.

[11:18]

Now tell me, is there any Buddhist principle here or not?" Guishan entered deeply into the dragon's cave, going on. Guishan entered more deeply into the dragon's cave, going on to ask, how many people are there in the fields? Yangshan planted his hoe in the ground and stood with his hands clasped, immediately meeting as a patch-robed monk. Later, Sheng Xia said, if I had seen him then, I would have kicked over the hoe for him. commentator says, I say he can't control his zeal.

[12:20]

Now, one way to look at this story, which I already told people before, is to think about this as concentric circles. one way to think about it is we live in this world and our practice is to go to another world. And the place you go to the other world from is this world. You step forth into transcendence from this world. As soon as you actually step forth from this world, you get into some different kinds of experiences from what you usually get into. These experiences are

[13:27]

still of this world, but a little different. And you may think that they're something special, but actually they're kind of intermediate. And then after passing through these kinds of experiences and not getting distracted by them, you arrive at another world, which is beyond this world. And this other world has no signs of being another world. The intermediate world has signs of being another world. It looks a little different, and there's reasons why it looks different that you can specify. But when you actually get to the transcendent other world, it cannot look the slightest bit different from this world. Otherwise, it wouldn't be transcendent. Otherwise, it would be marked by how it looks different. So the transcendent world must be actually just like this one. But between now and then, something unusual will happen, which partly tells you that it's not really the transcendent world.

[14:42]

It's a kind of intermediate world. However, it's still this world, so it actually, it's actually a transcendent world, too. It just looks different from this world. Now, this story particularly, I feel, is kind of going through these steps in a way. And so, before I go any further, I wonder if you have any comments about that. You don't have to. We can just let it drop and go on. Yes? Which one is supposed to be the father and which one is supposed to be the son? Guishan is the father.

[15:45]

Yangshan is the son. Okay. So that's why he said about kicking his hoe out, as if he's being kind of a rude to his father in a way, by planting his hoe and just being like, well, I'm not going to answer you. That's possible to see it that way. What's another way to see it? By the way, is everybody following this story? If someone suddenly asked you about this story, could you recite it? Hmm? But the people who can't recite it, please recite it. You can try. We will know. Your ignorance is a great gift to us. Please. Yangshan was out in the field. Uh-huh. Walking home from the field.

[16:49]

Uh-huh. And... I'm very mad about it. Came and met... another man. Guishan. Guishan. He plants his hoe and stands like this, which is a traditional Zen monk way of standing. On the hills, there are many people. On South Mountain? On South Mountain. There are many people. Cutting thatch.

[17:50]

Cutting thatch. I sort of started drifting because I was trying to picture what was happening. and Yangshan walked off, took his hoe and walked off. There's various theories about where he went. That's good. You added a little context to the story, which is nice. The story just starts out by Guishan asking, no, Guishan just asked Yangshan, where are you coming from? But you said you told a story about how he came. That's fine. That's true. Unless he's lying, as he did just what you said. But we aren't told that, except by the fact that he says, I come from the fields. And please understand that when he plants his hoe, he stands like this.

[18:57]

In other words, he plants his hoe and he stands in a formal posture of a Zen monk, of a patro monk. Okay? Okay? So, any other ideas about what this business is about? When Shrensha, another Zen master, says, I would have kicked over his hoe for him, and the commentator says, I say, he can't control his zeal. What's that about? First of all, what do you think that's about? And second of all, maybe you don't agree. Who can't control a zeal? Yeah, who can't? How many votes for Yangshan can't control a zeal? Zero. How many votes for... You want to vote for Yangshan? Okay, one. Two votes for Yangshan? Three. Three votes for Yangshan can't control a zeal.

[19:58]

How many votes for Guishan? One. Two? Three. How many votes for Shrensha? So most people think... Shrensha. Okay, okay, we'll vote again, okay, now. How many votes for Yangshan? People are changing their votes, but four for Yangshan this time. How many for Guishan? One for Guishan, and the rest for Shrensha? How many? Shrensha, okay, yeah. So if it's Shrensha, what do they mean, Shrensha can't control his zeal? What do they mean by that? What's he zealous about?

[21:00]

It's like unrestrained action. Guishan, by contrast, Yangshan and Guishan are much more restrained in their responses. Yes. Kicking over his hoe would be much more exuberant than either of them would act. Right, but why do they say he can't control his zeal? Oh, just because he can't control it. I guess the commentator apparently thinks that he should control his zeal. Maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah, he can't control his zeal. Okay, so yeah, so he can't control his zeal. No judgment, just saying he can't control it. His zeal's out of control. Oh, I think the opposite. I think that he thinks that Shrenshaw is saying too exuberantly that Yongshan was wrong, was having, didn't meet the moment, so that his response was inappropriate.

[22:10]

So he's offering an alternative. Right. And the commentator's saying he's wrong, Shrenshaw's wrong. So you felt the commentator's making some judgment, kind of a judgment. You feel like you're just observing that this guy's really exuberant. Yeah, I can see either way. What's he exuberant about? What's there to be exuberant about here? Meeting. Meeting, yeah. He's getting excited about meeting. How about this transformation you were just talking about? Would you see planting the hoe as the intermediate? When he plants the hoe, it stands in... What I see as the intermediate? Yeah, it's unusual to answer a question like that, isn't it? Somebody says, how many people in the fields, you plant your hoe and then stand in a formal posture when somebody asks you? I've been around Green Gulch for years and people don't usually act like that.

[23:11]

You say to people, how many people in the field, they say 32 or 16 or not very many. Or a lot. They don't usually plant their hoe and stand there like that. They don't. That's kind of unusual. Yeah, that's like a sign, let's say. You said the intermediate stage has signs. Yeah, it's kind of got a sign, doesn't it? Seems to. So I'm going to say his zealousness was to kick him into this transcendent. Whose zealousness? I don't know. Svanshra. Svanshra is, you know, living a different time, right? He's a commentator. Okay. But he said, if I would have been there, so he sort of put himself into that. Yeah, so he... If I would have been there, I would have kicked him into this. I would have kicked him out of that intermediate state into this. Yeah, you say kick him into it. That's okay. And why would he be excited about kicking him into it? What's in it for him? Interesting. Another one across the shore?

[24:19]

Another one? That's one way of saying it. Yeah. What's another way of saying it? Every one. Well, how about two? How about two? Okay. The thing is, you want this person to go across, but they don't go across by themselves. You want them to go ahead of you, but they don't go ahead of you. It's always to go. That's what's exciting. Well, according to Buddha. laughter [...] Well, yeah, I said that at Tassajar, you know, that you don't ever get enlightened alone, you know.

[25:24]

Didn't I say something like that at Tassajar? Or something like that, I said anyway. You do not clarify what's happening alone. You don't do it alone. You need another person. You need an other to figure out what's happening. And then afterwards, Tom Gere documented me and said, but it was alone. I didn't want to interrupt you or anything, but... Huh? You had Mara. But actually, when Mara split before he figured everything out, I should say, before he attained all knowledge, Mara split. Mara split as soon as he understood that he didn't have to give up his seat, that he could actually sit.

[26:25]

So, I propose to you that Buddha was not He attained all knowledge that night by himself, by looking at the sun. But he was actually, trickily speaking, not yet Buddha. He wasn't Buddha until something happened. Later. Later. He wasn't Buddha until there was somebody else, until he had a student. Hmm? What? Well, actually, I think... Anyway, he wasn't Buddha until somebody was transformed, until somebody woke up, until he was teaching.

[27:30]

Buddha is not just this going up and attaining. Buddha is not just attaining saintliness and all knowledge. Buddha is conversion. So Buddha became Buddha when Buddha taught. Buddha is not this... thing that understands everything. Buddha is also that which emanates this understanding and illuminates other beings, and then that flashes back to the Buddha. Buddha is, I think, a teacher, not just a real, real, real super healthy person. More than that, More than just a really clear-headed, open-hearted, swell person. It's somebody who also has skill and means, and the skill and means have actually taken effect, have converted. Then the Buddha is alive. So in a sense, I'm saying that the Chakramuni Buddha was not really Buddha that night. But he wasn't going to stay around. Didn't he have that choice at that time?

[28:31]

He was considering not even staying. he was considering not to teach. He wasn't going to leave. He was just going to sit there and have a good time. No, he wouldn't have been. He would not have been a Buddha. He would have been a sage, a great sage. He would have been a real great sage. And he would have spent the rest of his life, you know, relatively well off. He was pretty well off all the way along, up until he left home. He was really well off. He would have been better off than he was before he left home. But he wouldn't have been Buddha. Buddha is a teacher. Buddha is a teacher. He was coaxed into teaching.

[29:33]

That's another thing. Buddhists don't want to impose something on people. They want to give it to people who want it. It hurts their feelings if they push people and then people reject them. So they only teach when requested three times or more. And he was asked three times. And he did it. Part of the reason why he didn't think people didn't want to do it was he didn't think people would appreciate it. He thought, yeah. And another principle in Buddhist teaching is don't give people teaching if they're going to reject it because there's one thing you shouldn't reject, and that is the Dharma. You can reject a lot of other stuff. But if you reject the Dharma, it's really you're doing yourself a big disservice. So you don't want to offer Dharma to people that are going to reject it. But if they ask for it sincerely three times, then there's a fairly good chance that they might not reject it, so then you can offer it.

[30:38]

So that's what he did. And sure enough, when he offered it straight off the cuff, people didn't get it. So then he changed it a little bit so they could get it. And they got it really well, and he became Buddha. And then he just kept becoming Buddha, Again and again, the rest of his life, he just couldn't become Buddha. He became Buddha because when he taught, people listened and people learned and people developed. That's the function of Buddha. So he wasn't alone when he became Buddha. Somebody else was there. He was alone when he attained all knowledge under the bow tree. He had a great awakening. But strictly speaking, he was not a Buddha until he turned the Dharma wheel. So, which, anyway, I don't want to get off into elaborate Buddhological dissertation at this point, so I'll just say that, okay?

[31:39]

If meeting is important between people and we play these roles of Buddha and disciple or father and son or father and daughter or mother and daughter or lord and vassal or empress and minister or whatever, you know, play these roles to have a relationship where we can clarify Dharma. And both parties have to, you know, fully understand themselves into the relationship. Here's an example of where the teacher asks the student a question which he sort of knew the answer to just to meet. So again, You know, teacher standing at the edge of the field, student comes up from the field, the teacher says, how many people in the fields? Oh, no, he says, where are you coming from? You can see the person coming up and you say, where are you coming from? Why do you do that? You do that because you want to set up the opportunity to meet.

[32:43]

This is very kindly, offering friendship. through that question. Like we say, how are you? Well, we know how people are. Don't have to ask them. And yet, we're interested to find out what they'll say because as soon as they talk, it's going to be different. And also, it offers an opportunity to start meeting. Then they say, oh, I'm feeling this way or that way. And then you say, well, how long have you been feeling this way? The person stands up at their table twists their nose and gives you a wink. And then you say, there's a lot of people washing dishes over there. And the person may go off then.

[33:45]

Was there a meeting in this story? Is that a hand up in the air? Oh, he could have said many and he could have said one. Well, in a sense, one way to understand his answer is that there's one person in the fields. Pardon? Yeah. That's fine. You can say that. You could also say that he's saying, you can understand that he's saying, there's this many people in the fields. This is how many of the people there are in the fields, right? This is how many people there are in the world. This is one of the regular ways to count. You go like this. That's how many.

[34:47]

And what you said is fine, too. Also, the commentator says, of course, what he means is there's two people. How many people are in the fields? There's two. Guess who they are. That's another way to understand it. These are all ways to meet. The point is to set up a way to meet. Please, other interpretations are welcome. It always says, you know, in the next verse it says... Talks about bystanders. If anybody here doesn't agree, please, you're welcome. This is just a thing to say. It isn't by way of disagreement. One more interpretation of Yangshan's action is to dramatize that he's here right now. Yes, exactly. He's here right now.

[35:48]

That's what I mean. That's how many people there are. How many people there are is right now. That's how many people there are. How many people there are is called now. There's never any other number than that number of people, which is called now. Right. How many people meet? Takes two to tango. Now. According to this line of interpretation, things are going pretty easily, actually. Now, and it's also a little unusual, this way of talking. So it's a kind of, you could say, a kind of intermediate zone kind of teaching. The story's not over. Things are a little strange here. Although, I think for me, it's fine to count like that.

[36:52]

Or I should say, it's fine to count like this. This is the way we count. This is the way we count, okay? We all count this way, moment by moment, right? Are you following me? No? The way we count is we count by being ourselves moment by moment. This is the way we count. This is the way we count. We always count this way. I thought somebody said, I think Peter Rudnick said that geniuses, all geniuses do two things. They read the funnies and they always are counting. They count everything. So in that way, I would say that our life moment by moment is the way we count. And I mean it as a pun, too. I mean, I didn't mean it as a pun, but it's a pun. That's the only way you count is like this and this and this.

[37:55]

Like one, then you go, you know, one plus one, say two, and then two plus one is three. You go one, [...] or this, this, this, this. That's how you count, right? It's called an integer, right? Usually we count that way, or we can count other ways, but usually the way you count is either integers or relationships between integers, right? Like one over one, one over two. What's an integer? What does integer mean? In other words, you count like this, and this is how many people there are. That's one way to see it. So I'm just saying, in a way, I'm willing to have this be pretty simple. that this is just regular old counting, but it's a strange way of talk because we're heading into this zone away from the ordinary world where there's two people who aren't meeting. We're heading to a world where we meet.

[38:56]

And as we head that way, things are a little strange sometimes. Okay. Now Yang Na Guishan says, There's a lot of people cutting thatch on South Mountain. And this is the phrase. This is kind of like the big phrase in the story. This is the big phrase. This is the phrase where we're told by the commentator, here, Guishan checks him. And check has three meanings easily available. One is check like check out, like checking up. Another one is checked like stop. Another one is checked like in chess. You check them. You mean you're in danger. You've got to do something, otherwise you're a dead person. The game's over unless you do something. That's not a meaning of check. And the commentator says, if he hadn't have checked them, what did he say? Yangshan would still be driveling his drool or something?

[40:01]

What did he say? Yeah, he'd be stuck between what comes before a horse and behind an ass, and before an ass and behind a horse. This is the intense center of the story. There's a lot of people cutting thatch on South Mountain. Here, interpretation doesn't get a foothold for me. But if anybody wants to try, go ahead. This is what's called, in other circles, light.

[41:04]

This is the transcendent world, which checks the disciple. And I'm not saying that, I'm just, you know, this isn't reaching it either. So. That's the knowing before speech, solid discourse. Knowing before speech? Maybe so. So are people following this, or is this just really strange? Are quite a few people getting lost now and afraid to say so? Okay. How were you doing a little bit a while ago when we were talking about Yangshan planting his hoe as being his attempt to meet his teacher's attempt to meet him? Does that make sense? It didn't make sense, but it didn't distress me. Now you're talking about this, you know, people out petting that.

[42:09]

No, I'm talking about, no, Guishan said it, right? It's not me, I'm just... You were discussing that. Right, but did you have any problem with Guishan saying that? Were you distressed about Guishan before I said anything? A lot of people... together or anything. That line, a lot of people are cutting, it never did when you read the story, don't you mean? When you first read it, it didn't either. And was it distressing when you first read it? No. But it's getting a little bit more distressing? Well, when you're saying, this is the crux of the thing, and I'm trying to figure out... Not getting it doesn't matter unless somebody says it's the crux, then it bothers you. We don't mind missing some stray statement.

[43:14]

Yes? When I heard it, it seemed so ordinary. Yeah. It seemed like a description of the ordinary. Yeah, I think it is. I agree, it's ordinary. which again makes it sound like it's coming back to the ordinary world again. Yes? Well, I thought also of like Manjushri cutting, you know, the myriad grasses, so that I had this feeling you were saying there are a lot of enlightened beings out there, so don't set yourself up alone as special, you know, kind of watch your arrogance. Yes. Well, I thought that Guishan was sort of inviting Yangshan into this sort of exalted realm, and Yangshan wasn't having any of it at all. In fact, I thought when he stood, he just had his hands on his hoe a bit.

[44:22]

Oh, you see it that way? Yeah. But he said, I'm coming from the fields. He opened his mouth. Where are you coming from? He said, I'm coming from the fields. But you felt that when he said how many people are there, that he was making an invitation to some exalted realm. Yeah. And Yangshan would have nothing to do with it. That's fine. and not having anything to do with the exalted realm is also rather unusual. Isn't that unusual? We don't often get a chance to turn down the ultimate. We get a chance to turn down quite a few things which we don't turn down, but to get a chance to be offered the ultimate opportunity and turn it down, this is quite, stinks. You thought he was pretty hot shot for turning it down, didn't you?

[45:25]

No, I thought he actually stank a little less than Grayshawn. Oh, yes. Well, Grayshawn's completely filthy. He's willing to get muddy for his disciple. Oh, good. But his disciple... will have none of this ultimate stuff. Susan, did you already talk? Did you try to say? Peter? I was going to say something similar to what Susan said, and that was that I felt that it was a return to the ordinary. There were people cutting the ash, and they felt Yes.

[46:27]

I saw it as Yangshan being a transcendent person. Yes. And his teacher trying to pull him out of it, trying to trick him. And so he made an emphatic statement by pulling the leg and holding his hands. And then his teacher tried to once again trick him and told him to go to South Mountain. But he walked away. It was like he maintained that echo of his posture. He maintained himself. Where did he go? He just went. He went. I haven't gone to South Mountain. Well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Otherwise, of course, they would have told us. So, yes? I found it really strange and distressing in the story.

[47:34]

Just at that point, one would sort of hope that it would all come together. And then Guishan says this, and one of the obvious things about the story is that it contrasts Yangshan's response of just this to, there's a lot of people. So he's describing a situation in which there are many, not just the one, not just the present. And later on in the commentary, not the king or not the Buddha. So it seems that there's almost two choices, like a forked road there. Can either say that Guanshan perhaps is attributing that cutting thatch behavior being in the realm of the minister rather than the Lord to Yangshan, or perhaps he's inviting Yangshan from his current situation to exhibit compassion to the people who are in that category of cut and thatch on South Mountain.

[48:56]

Does it? I don't know. I kind of think that it was a... I pictured it as actually a mountain in the neighborhood where people were cutting thatch. I thought there actually was... that he was referring to some illusion which he was experiencing in this world. Maybe it's simpler than we're making out here, but maybe he's just coming up from the fields and it was still work time. He said, well, we're in touchbacks today. Yeah. Why are you home so early? Yes. When Yashan is asking him, where are you coming from? Yashan is coming from In itself, he's talking about where he is and himself coming from.

[50:34]

I'm coming from the fields. And so maybe he doesn't answer. Maybe he just stands there with a hope that he's kind of in a field place inside himself. I don't know. It's not really on the same level. He's not in the same reality. He's not talking about where he's physically coming from. I feel that what I'd like to do now is talk about how you're going to use this story, how you're going to go deeper with this story.

[51:41]

And I also would like to know who is going to go deeper with this story and who would rather go deeper with something else. Part of the discussion that we've been doing is to help figure out, get some access to how to go deeper or become closer to this story, not to finish it off in this class. And we can discuss it more, but I just want to say that before we do discuss it more, I would like to put in a word for becoming closer to this story and how you do that. And I would make a suggestion that you use, that I would take Tien Tung's advice and inscribe, engrave the phrase about South Mountain in the bones.

[52:51]

engrave this saying in the bones, inscribe it in the skin, and together, requiting the blessing. In other words, we people here in this room, some of us, take this phrase and engrave it in our bones and inscribe it in our skin, and then we can express our gratitude for the blessings we've received. And maybe nobody wants to do that, but I think that that's kind of like what it's called, that's what it would be like to use the full opportunity of this story. Now, if somebody wants to take some other part of the story and engrave that in their bones or inscribe that in their skin, that's fine too.

[54:00]

But I'm just suggesting that one kind of obvious place to start is with that place right there. Okay? Any questions about that? Anybody have any comments or questions about that? Yes? I just have a question. You said the commentaries were written later on than the pieces. First there's the stories, like Zen stories. Then this person went among the thousands and millions of Zen stories and pulled out a hundred of his favorites. and wrote a hundred stories, a hundred verses. Then later, somebody came back, saying bye, and wrote a commentary on the story and a commentary on the verse. And then at the same time, he wrote these short, abrupt statements between the lines of the case and between the lines of the verse. That's the way that... Yeah, so a traditional way of working with materials in...

[55:09]

in India and China, but particularly in China, is to take a teaching, a poem or story, lay the story out, and take a line of it, and they're often in verses or whatever. In this case, unusually for Chinese literature, you have verbal expressions in ordinary colloquial language of people talking to each other, and it's treated almost like classical poetry. In other words, you take a line of speech as though it were classical poetry, and then you make this abrupt comment between the lines, after the line, in characters that are half the size of the characters of the original text. Then you do another line, and you again make these comments, another line, and do these comments. That's the added sayings. So anyway, a traditional way is to collect a bunch of stories or a bunch of poems or a bunch of teachings and then write a verse celebrating each one of them. That's the first level of composition. Next level of composition is comments line by line plus a discursive commentary on the case and a discursive commentary on the poetry.

[56:19]

All right? But to me, what I'm emphasizing right now is that I think the commentary and all that and the verse is a way to somewhat reasonably guide yourself to the core of the matter, not to tell you that you should think about this way, but to get you kind of focused, to kind of get you in the right posture and the right focus on this story. This story contains something which could be a benefit. And so the commentary of all that is to help you get kind of cozy with it completely penetrated. Now, without the commentary, you could still do it. If you just hung out with the story for long enough, you'd get yourself into it. You can get into it faster this way, probably. It has a disadvantage that you might cross out some approaches that you might otherwise take.

[57:25]

That's why I like to have discussion, so that people can bring up other interpretations too, so we don't get too rigid about the proper approach to the story. But I think that it's also important to remember with each story we study, are you going to do this story or not? And if you're not, fine, let's go on to another one. Are you ever going to do any of these stories or not? It's okay with me if you do all of them. I hope you do one. And each, you know, we talk about the Shobo Genzo, which is the treasury of eyes of true Dharma. Each one of these stories supposedly has at least one eye in it. You need to find the eye and then put that eye in your head and look through it.

[58:28]

So who wants to use this case? Who wants to penetrate it? And if among those anybody have any questions about how, we can ask it now or later. But I'm just saying one possible entry point, one possible I is a lot of people are cutting thatch on South Mountain. Another example which I've been using quite a bit lately, another I, is life is just like a boat. You raise the sail, you work the oars, and you row with the oars, and you work the rudder. And although you work the rudder and so on, the boat gives you a ride. And without the boat giving you a ride, no one could ride in the boat. No one could ride. although the boat gives you a ride, your riding of the boat makes the boat what a boat is.

[59:37]

And then Dogen says, examine such a moment. So here, I'm saying, this story is presenting another narrative version of what Dogen offers as a moment of dependently co-arisen being. And in particular, there's a kind of pointing to the center of the story where you can focus, where you can enter that one line. And if you can remember the story and engrave it in your bones and inscribe it in your skin, We're being told that you can repay, you can express your gratitude for the blessings you've received by being given this teaching. Okay? And the other discussions are, and then Dogen goes on to say some more stuff about the boat and life and death and all that, which is good.

[60:46]

Again, he's trying to help you basically focus on this moment When you make the boat and the boat makes you. Here's a story where Yangshan and Guishan are making each other. And in particular, there seems to be one line that's a good place to focus. So I'm kind of, I'm a little bit copying Dogen now, and I'm saying, please examine this moment. And I'm suggesting, along with the commentator, please examine the moment of A lot of people are cutting thatch on South Mountain. And again, I say, if there's a bystander who wants to offer another eye, which they're going to examine, please offer the other eye. What time is it? It's one o'clock. Okay. Yes. Yes.

[61:48]

If I continue to look at that last statement as the example of a return to ordinary life, it seems like, to engrave it, it seems like those ways of dealing with it are so dramatic that it belies the simplicity of ordinary life. And so I'm confused as to how to use that last phrase in that way. Well, I don't know if this is what you mean exactly, but my response is that I think there's a kind of paradox in Zen study, that it's about ordinary life, and yet it's also about being very concentrated and very thorough and very penetrating. Part of my image of Zen is just to be kind of natural and relaxed. And I think that, again, there's a paradox there that we think we probably expected being natural and relaxed wouldn't be very intense.

[63:06]

But I think that there is an intensity here in the ordinariness. that actually the ordinary mind is the most intense mind. It is the most intense. And we think a little bit like some special mind is more intense. Actually the ordinary mind is the most intense. So it's ordinary and yet and not special, and an ordinary not special thing is the most difficult to look at. Because where is it? It's like you can't put it up on a shelf or something. It's right under your nose. You're breathing it right now. That's the most difficult thing. That's the most intense place for us to be. It's called actually now.

[64:08]

actually now is the most ordinary situation. And we make up all these special things which are a little bit off sides from now and they're less ordinary. So how can we live our life and interact with people and not get on a trip and at the same time not just basically go limp, check out and distract ourselves, This is the middle way, right? It's very difficult to understand this. And the final statement is quite ordinary, sounds quite ordinary. And another thing is why would one want to spend, why would one want to engrave such an ordinary thing? Wouldn't you want to engrave something a little bit more interesting, something a little bit more special, something which you could see is going to be more useful? something which would keep your interest longer, rather than something which people just say, this is something worthy of inscription.

[65:22]

So I understand what you're saying. I agree. And at the same time, can you pick up, can anybody pick up something very ordinary sounding and be totally devoted to it? Just like, can you be totally devoted to an ordinary person rather than somebody who's a little bit sparkly or awesome? There's a bunch of people raising their hands, so one, two, three, all of you raise your hands again. Okay, you're first. Yeah, you. What's your name again? Elizabeth. Your Elizabeth is first. Go ahead. the story and read it between the lines, like get the lesson, maybe the I not being in the words themselves, but in the relationship of the people, and maybe learn a lesson from it.

[66:29]

To me, it seems that reading the story with the two men, the two people, are not really... relating to each other and interacting... It doesn't seem to me like they're understanding each other, and maybe they are, but maybe one of the eyes is to look in that... Well, to ask how would Guishan feel, when Yangshan just stands there? Does it make him uncomfortable because his question isn't being answered, or is it being answered? Is he trying to teach his friend by saying there are a lot of people over there? I wonder if we can look at it, not at the story, but how are the people feeling? Yeah, fine. It reminds me, kind of, of yesterday's discussion in, if we look at it that way, are these people relating to each other well?

[67:38]

Can they communicate? Yesterday we were talking about the differences between training of men and women, and how, I think you said that women are trained to interrelate with people, and that men don't do that as much. Men don't have that social aspect. What did you say? Well, not the nurturing as much as we... One of the differences that you stated was nurturing, but also just interconnectedness. Yeah, I just read... I was reading this thing in Kola's Access today about... It's called The Great Divide, about men and women in various aspects. And one of them was, when depressed, such and such a number of females will do this and such and such a number of males will do this. And I forgot what the percentage was, but I think something like 78% of women will call a friend on the telephone, and like 15% of men will call a friend on the telephone.

[68:47]

Again, some men do that, but one friend of mine said he used to listen to his mother who called her friends every day on the telephone. He used to listen and they said he listened and he couldn't hear. This is a man who was a well-developed feminine. He said he couldn't hear. They were talking about anything much. It seemed like they were just not saying anything. And he said, but he realized after a while that what they were doing was just keeping the channels open so that when something really important happened, you could send it down the channel. The channel was open. You keep them open by just keeping them open. It doesn't matter what's open. The open channel is more important than the information. And once in a while, there's something you have to talk about and you can talk about it. So somehow, I think all people should work on that more. And I think Guishan did have some feelings when Yangshan said that. And I think it would be good to examine what did he feel like when his disciple acted like that

[69:55]

How was he feeling? Yes? Well, I keep thinking that it's like, you're just saying the first, second, and the third, that it's like he went back to, so I said, what did you have to eat this morning? You just didn't answer. I might say, well, I had some apples. No, it's like he went back to just saying, well, you want to answer how many people are in your fields, I'll tell you how many are in the field. Yeah. I just can't. Yeah, and some people, like you, when someone does that, might say, well, I had apples. And other people might say, this guy isn't relating to me. I'm leaving. And I think that in this case, the person didn't check out. He hung in there with the other person, and he came back with something. I don't know how he felt, but I can imagine he felt a little uncomfortable. If Mio's interpretation is right... that maybe he felt a little uncomfortable with his disciple refusing to dirty himself with such, what was your term?

[71:03]

Such transcendent possibilities or whatever they were. Maybe he was feeling a little uncomfortable, but he still kept relating. And I would suggest that some people feel uncomfortable with this case, but will you keep relating to it as though it were an old friend that you can't abandon? You don't have to, but which story are you going to be totally devoted to? Which story are you going to stay with through the good and lean years and all the in-between years, come what may? What story are you going to love all the way? Hmm? Maybe none. Maybe you don't want to work on koans. Fine. No problem. We'll just keep studying these cases year after year, and maybe someday you'll fall in love with a koan and marry it and vow to stay with it all the way. And the next line is, what is it? Who knows where the road will lead us?

[72:09]

Only a fool can tell. Practice secretly working within like a fool, like an idiot. You'd have to be an idiot to spend your time on this story, wouldn't you? What kind of a fool would spend their time thinking about this when there's so many interesting things to think about, like roses and babies and politics and money and monsters? and bad people and lovely people, so many things. And also they're changing all the time and new versions of everything that are coming up to entertain us. What kind of a fool would stay with a story like this? Well, a fool. A fool who is serving and obeying and devoted to what? I just want to say again, for me, an important aspect or a thing I'm thinking about is, in the introduction, knowing before speech is called silent discourse.

[73:17]

And then, like I've been hearing a few people say, it seems like the important thing in this story is not the words, but the silent discourse that's happening. And it's easy for me, for instance, I've been thinking, well, here's this master, this teacher, this, you know, this student may have to wait weeks on a dokasong list to see, and this teacher says, we've come to a problem. Yeah. That's going to, there's going to be something happening. Yeah. Besides those words. Right. At that moment. Yeah. And this student says, I'm coming for the field. And then he goes, it goes further. You ask him another question. At this point, the student. Wait a second now. Yeah. Now, when the teacher said to the student, where are you coming from? You know that silent discourse that was going on at that time? Know that one? What was that? You don't have to say, but what was it? Because he's not going to say now. Listen. What was it? I love you.

[74:19]

Yeah. Now, are you going to make the students cop out on that, or is he going to come back with that, too? Is he going to stay in the Heaviside discourse? The way you said it didn't sound like that. Yes, he is. So what does he say? He says, I love you, too. How does he say it? He stands there and meets him as a man. No, no, no, no. Oh. What did he say? He said something else first. So say it again. Which part? I'm coming from the fields. I'm coming from the fields. Okay. And then? How many people are in the field? Yeah. Can you hear the silent discourse? Keep going. Yeah, that's right. There's a silent discourse going on here. Only a fool would know it, of course. And also only a fool would say, hey, man, this is bullshit.

[75:21]

I mean, in this class, only a fool would say that. There's no silent discourse. They're just those people talking. And they're all just those words. That's real love. And yet there's a silent discourse, too. What is that silent discourse? It's love. And what is love? How deep does it go? How unshakable is it? Anybody want to use this story to find out what love is? Here it is. This story is about love. This is about these people meeting. And it's very ordinary. And love is very intense. Blinding light. So again, I'm not trying to get somebody to pick this story up, but I'm just saying some story.

[76:31]

I would be happy if somebody would pick up some story. And here's one. This could be it for somebody here. And if anybody wants to work on this as a kind of, what do you call it, a love potion or a silent discourse stick or whatever, here it is. Now, there's more in this story, and time is running out. We're going to stop pretty soon. We can, you know, these stories, you can bring them up in other classes on other stories, you know. These stories interrelate. And the new people in the class, I hope you study the past stories somewhat, at least learn, just read the story anyway so you have some sense of the story because that will help you, I think, understand the case better.

[77:32]

And also, please have parties with each other. Invite each other over to dinner and lunch and breakfast and discuss these stories. Have a case seven party. Have a case three luncheon. Grace does that. She talks to other doctors in the hospital about case 13. They think she's weird, but she still talks to them. You know? She works with dying people, right? There's a case about somebody who's dying, a great Zen master dying. So she has these other people dying there, so she talks to the doctors about it. So we have this class, and the class just marches on, 15, 16, 17, next week we'll do 16. But, you know, integrate these stories in your life. Make Zen Buddhism come into life in America by bringing these stories into your conversation. Find a way. It's up to you.

[78:35]

You're the ones. We're cutting that. Yeah, right. So I can't go through this book The plan of going through this book would not be possible if I stayed in this case until everybody here accepted this case and went to the bottom with it. Because so far, nobody's done it. And it would take years before some of you would be willing to. And a lot of people would run away. So I'm taking the approach now of giving back to you, but I'm also saying that in some sense this class will be kind of heady and off the ground unless some people start taking these koans, you know, to the, down to the ground with them, you know, or as they say, to the mat, to actually see how this is actually having something to do with your life and be dedicated to some

[79:51]

to something that you're really examining all the way with somebody else, because these stories are about relationship. Otherwise, I feel we're missing a great opportunity. So I'll just keep reminding you and inviting you to do that. And I'm literally speaking for you, if you want to, to tell me or somebody else that you're working on this and work on somebody with it. work on it with somebody. Elizabeth? Maybe the story is like a metaphor for the class, of course, studying with you, and that if you're Guishan and we or I come as Yangshan, and... I have the opportunity when you talk to me or present the story in the same way to tell you about my fields or to interact or to go onto the mountain or I can just walk away.

[80:58]

Right. This story is a metaphor for our silent discourse. And again, who has time for this silent discourse? Who has time to notice this? We can barely stand it. Really? Because people are talking. We think, I should probably pay attention to what they're saying rather than pay attention to what's happening. But now and then, check out the silent discourse that's going on between us. Did you want to have the last word? Who wants to have the last word? I do, I do. If you haven't signed up for this class, I'm forked over some money. You're going to get in a lot of trouble if you don't put your name and phone number on it before you go and get your case.

[82:06]

Thanks. I don't want to have less word, but even if you have paid, we want your name and phone number. Because, you know, you never know what happens. We might want to call you and tell you something. Hello? Elizabeth? Is that you? Guess what? We're not having class this week. We're meeting on South Mountain instead. I thought this was...

[82:35]

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