One often repeated theme this spring has been to be mindful of the question, how is what's happening in your life right now, a koan or the koan, how is what's happening right now, reality? Turning it around, we look at koans, traditional koans and new koans that are given to us as koans. We're told that here's a

[01:33]

koan of the tradition of koans. This is a famous koan that's been cared for for 1000 or more years. How is this koan, what's happening right now? How is this koan your life? And these stories of Buddhas and ancestors, how are they actually what's happening right now for you? How are these stories your story? And how is your story a Zen story? This is, I think, a wonderful pivot to be mindful of. And I have been trying to be

[02:34]

mindful of it. Almost every day, many days, for many years, I talked to people I hear their stories. They tell me their stories. They tell me the stories of their life. And then I ask them, how do you practice? Tell me the story of how you practice with your story. And they tell me how they practice with their story. And often by the time they've told me how they practice with their story, how they practice with their story is how I practice with their story.

[03:36]

I don't mean to talk them into making their story something that can be my story. But it turns out often, the person after person, by the time they leave the room, their story is kind of like my story. It's like, I kind of think that the way that they're talking about practicing and the way that they intend to practice with their life, I kind of think, well, I'd like to try that. I often feel that way. Oh, it'll be fun to finish these interviews so I can go practice with this, do the practice that this person wants to practice. And the next person comes in and then same thing happens again. So then I have another practice that I want to go practice. And if I see several people, I can hardly remember all the different practices that I want to do. And I want to do them all. I want to do everybody's practice.

[04:51]

So my way, and maybe your way, is that your practice, your story is my story. Yes. But my practice is not the same as your practice. And my practice is not different from your practice. Your practice is my practice, your story is my story. But your story is not the same as my story. And your story is not different from my story. That's what I mean by your story is my story. And my story is not the same as my story. And of course, my story is not different from my story. In this way, no matter what's happening, it's an opportunity for enlightenment. It's an opportunity for

[06:03]

reality. But it's an art to really be able to see other people's story as yours and then not cling to them. To really see somebody else's story as your story and not attach to their story or your story. To not attach to your story and be different, to not attach to their story and be the same, and yet have complete sympathy and intimacy with other people's story and with your own. I gave you a list of names, a story about a lineage,

[07:10]

a story about a lineage of stories. Many, many, many practitioners of the Buddha way, each one has a story, many stories. And there's a story that they're related. And so I asked you at the beginning, towards the beginning of this session, how about you? Is this story your story? And one of the people on the list is the great master Nagarjuna. And his disciple's name was Aryadeva, but also his disciple's name was Kanadeva. Aryadeva means noble deity. Kanadeva means one-eyed deity. So

[08:15]

he also was a great master. One day, a monk asked his teacher, his teacher's name was Ba Ling, a Chinese person. What is the school of Kanadeva? What is the school of the one-eyed deity? So he asked Ba Ling, because Ba Ling is in the tradition of Kanadeva. The Kanadeva story is his story. His story is Kanadeva's story. So you can ask Ba Ling about Kanadeva. So he does. What is the school, what is the tradition of Kanadeva, teacher? And Ba Ling said, filling a silver bowl with snow.

[09:25]

That's what Ba Ling said. And now, more than a thousand years later, I'm telling you about it. See if you see an opportunity when somebody asks you a question where it seems appropriate to say, fresh snow filling a silver bowl. And see if people talk about you saying that a thousand years later. Another monk asked Ba Ling, is the meaning of the ancestors and the meaning of the teachings the same or different? Ba Ling said, when the chickens are

[11:19]

cold, they climb into the trees. When the ducks are cold, they enter the water. This is called Ba Ling's chickens and ducks. Ba Ling is praised for speaking beyond sameness and difference. The monk asks, are the teachings of the ancestors, like my ancestors and your ancestors, are their teachings the same or different from the scriptures of the Buddhas? And Ba Ling doesn't say same or

[12:28]

different, he shows freedom from same or different. He shows how to enter the water without seeking anything. Like a duck. Now, I don't know if you think it's worthwhile mentioning to anybody ever that when chickens are cold, they climb into the trees, and then when ducks are cold, they go in the water. You might have an opportunity to do that with your grandchildren. See the chickens climbing into the trees on this cold afternoon? See the ducks going into the water? But in order for that story to go on, maybe your grandchildren have to ask you, is the teaching of

[13:32]

your school different from the teaching of the Buddhas? They have to set up the path for you to make this answer really precious. They have to be ready with that question. So anyway, I'm setting up Ba Ling as a wonderful person. His chickens and ducks have been waiting for me to tell you about them for a long time. So I finally told you. And I'm very happy about that. At Zen Center, we chant

[14:46]

something called the Harmony of Difference and Unity or Difference and Equality. The harmony of them. And the chant starts out, the mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from east to west. Or west to east. So a monk came to Ba Ling and said, what does it mean when it says the mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east? And Ba Ling said, are you quoting the words of the third ancestor? And the monk said, no, I'm quoting the words of the

[15:56]

eighth ancestor, Sherto. And Ba Ling said, oh, my bad. I'm becoming quite a dotard. You know what a dotard is? A dotard is related to what we talked about last week. We talked about geezers, codgers, and coots. You know what those are? Those are three English words for old man. And dotard is also an old man, but a little bit more emphasizing being a little senile and weak. So the great Zen master Ba Ling says, I'm becoming rather senile and weak. Like I can't remember which scriptures are which. And maybe he can't. And maybe he doesn't need to remember anymore that when a monk

[17:12]

asks him a question, he wants to show the monk that the monk's question is the teacher's question, and the monk's understanding is the teacher's understanding. And they're not the same, and they're not different. He doesn't have to remember that. He has become that through long practice. So now even though he's senile and weak, he naturally expresses something that doesn't give the monk an answer or not an answer. He didn't give the monk an answer. He wasn't smart. He seemed to be dumb, but I wanted to tell you that story. So last week and this week, the great teachers were a

[18:17]

little on the mild side. And one more story. I have much equipment here. I need an attendant to carry this electronic equipment wherever I go. Someone recently asked me if the interviews that I do with people could be on the internet. Just kidding. Wouldn't you like to listen to these interviews? Wouldn't that be nice? Hear these people's stories and how they're practicing with them. Do you know what this is? What's this? It's a staff. This is a staff. It's a staff. It's a staff.

[19:31]

It's a staff. In this present position, this is an inverted oak tree. Sometime ago it was like this in the ground. That's a root ball down there. But if you turn it right side up and look at it, you can see it's now a dragon. It's a live oak tree, about 50 years old, but didn't get very big because of the root ball. So the rings are very dense. This staff was given to me in 1983. You might say this is my staff. In the old days, when Zen monks traveled around, China is a very

[20:50]

mountainous country like Japan. Japan and China are kind of a lot like certain parts of California. Monasteries are often in the mountains and Zen monks often went around visiting different teachers because the teachers were not the same and not different from the teachings of the Buddha. So they read the Buddhist scriptures, they recited the Buddhist scriptures, and they went to ask about the meaning of the ancestors. They carried sometimes a staff, like for when they crossed rivers or were going down hillsides or climbing up, they'd carry a staff. The staff was usually taller than them. Someone was making a staff for somebody and they showed it to me and I said,

[21:55]

it's not tall enough. There's some nice staffs, but it's good to have a staff that's taller than you. So this is staff and I didn't use it for many years and then have it become my staff. It was almost 28 years. The great teacher Fa Yen came to the hall and said to his monks, if you can understand this staff, you can end your Zen travels. Somebody said, a Fa Yen staff or the staff of a Zen monk is kind of a souvenir of their study.

[23:20]

A souvenir in the sense that they used it for travel, but also a souvenir that might be given to them. You've been practicing for quite a while now. Here, here's a souvenir of your practice. But this is not a souvenir. Thank you. This is not a souvenir, one could say. This is not a symbol. You can't get this staff with your hands, your eyes, your tongue, your ears, or your nose.

[24:24]

But you can have this staff. And if you have this staff, you can understand this staff. And if you understand this staff, I would say, instead of saying, you can end your Zen travels, I can say, you can start your Zen travels. When I first received this staff, it was quite a bit heavier, but it still has a good heft to it. So please, receive this staff in your hearts and take it with you on your travels. Take this staff with you wherever you go on your journey on the Buddha way.

[25:31]

Never forget it, even when you understand it. But without forgetting it, don't be attached to it. I give you this staff. Please take care of it. Picking it up, putting it down, and saying, all the Buddhas achieved awakening with this staff.

[26:57]

All the ancestors attained their realization with this staff. This staff is not the same as their staff, and it's not different from their staff. They use this staff, which is not the same as their staff. And not different from their staff. Please take care of this thing that's not the same or different, that transcends sameness and difference. Please take care of it. And you can make it a staff, or you can make it a shout, or you can make it a song, or you can make it water sprinkled over the group.

[28:15]

Ready? Don't tell Donald. Oops, it got recorded. So thank you very much. Is there anything else? Did you bring any presents for us that you care to offer? It's often just like this.

[29:19]

But it's not the same as this, or different from this. I think practice takes care of practice, and practice takes care of the question, what is practice? Doesn't it? It must. It takes care of all sentient beings, so it certainly takes care of the question, what's practice? It also takes care of the statement, this is practice. It takes care of that statement by being gentle with it, by not crushing it. By saying thank you for telling us what practice is. Do you understand now? Yes.

[30:22]

Congratulations. Any other gifts tonight? Yes. How was the dinner last week? Pardon? How was the dinner last week? The dinner. Your daughter's dinner. The dinner last week at this time, hey, if the people at, what's the name of the place? Something Shanghai? Across the street from the Balboa Theater? This is like a big plug. It's a very good restaurant. It's like really good and not very expensive. The meal was very delicious and not very expensive, and I got to pay for it.

[31:36]

And I thought, wow, this is not that difficult. And then the next day, my daughter got married for the first time, and perhaps last. Did you wed there? Were you the master of ceremonies? Was I the master of ceremonies? As a matter of fact, no. As some of you may know, I retired from doing weddings quite a while ago, and I've turned down some of my dearest friends. If Obama asked me to marry him, of course, maybe I shouldn't say Obama because I don't want him to get divorced, but if Obama asked me to marry him again to Michelle, I had to say, well, I'm sorry, I'd love to. Then I'd finally be famous. Thank you.

[32:44]

But it would hurt the feelings of my friends who I said no to, so I can't perform your wedding. So no, I wasn't the master of ceremonies. But my daughter did sort of broach the topic some time ago and said, well, would you make an exception for your daughter? And I said, well, maybe. But anyway, the person she married didn't want a Buddhist wedding. The master of ceremonies was Grace Damman. Grace Damman, who had a miraculous recovery from a super difficult car accident about three years ago, or two years ago, or three years ago. So she wasn't in a wheelchair for the ceremony. She sat in a chair and did a very nice job. Congratulations.

[33:52]

Any other gifts tonight? Yes. With all of your experience now with raising pay and being a priest for so long, can you make some comments for us about complete practice as a priest, with all of those demands and organizational, structural demands, and complete practice as a father and family member? Well, I confess that when I was young, I thought they were different. I saw my practice in a certain form, and let's say I was devoted to it. I sometimes said, let's say I was ten points for practice,

[35:07]

and then when I got married and became a father, I felt like I was, in a sense, eight points for practice, but I was four points or five points for something else. So my total points was about thirteen. So my practice, in a sense, got bigger, but my formal practice, in some sense, was reduced, in a way, because of the responsibilities of caring for my daughter. So, for example, the morning she was born, I didn't go to the zendo. People wondered, will he come to the zendo, even though his daughter is being born? And I stayed with her mother and her in the birth process, even though there was Zazen right next door in the room. So that's an example of where I didn't do the formal thing, I did the non-formal thing, which wasn't really informal,

[36:10]

just a different form. Birth is quite formal, actually. You've got to stay within certain limits, that's sort of what it's about. How do you work with these major limits in a compassionate and courageous way? So I think I missed some opportunities when I was younger to give my full attention to formal Zen practice and give my full attention to the formal requirements of being a good father. And so that's one of the happinesses of being a grandfather is I can show I have a chance now to do it again wholeheartedly without being caught by sameness or difference.

[37:14]

But the first time around I was caught by sameness and difference, I think. And I've apologized many times to my daughter but with my grandson I think she's being encouraged by the way I'm wholehearted with him. For most people it takes a long time of practice to get over sameness and difference. Lots of occasions of noticing you're caught by this is the same and this is different, and then confess and repent and try again. Meeting another person, it takes a lot of practice

[38:35]

to not be distracted by sameness and difference. To be present, to be present, to be present. And not say, oh, this person is the same as me or this person is different from me. To find that middle way, moment by moment, with living beings and with Buddhas, to find that moment by moment, it really takes a lot of practice to stay on that beam consistently. Yes? Yes. By being kind to attachment,

[39:36]

the illness of attachment can be healed and transformed. The mind that attaches can be transformed. That's the proposal. So be kind and then eventually you'll be liberated from it. Or saved. But we have to be kind first. Yes? If you are being kind,

[40:39]

you do not think that what you're doing is the same as kindness or different. If you're actually being kind, you're not caught by the thought, I'm being kind. And if you're actually being kind, you're not caught by the thought, I'm not being kind. How does it relate? Intimately. We have to learn to be kind, which means we have to learn to try to be kind without believing that we are... I have to try to be kind, for example, to you, without believing my thought, hey, I'm pretty kind.

[41:42]

Without believing that kindness is the same as what I'm trying to do. And also without believing that kindness is different from what I'm trying to do. Real kindness requires that. And when that balance is achieved, then that's wisdom. That's kindness, which is now true kindness. Which includes also that I do not think I'm the same as you or different from you. And it includes that if you think it wasn't kind, I'm not the same as the person who thinks it's not kind, and I'm not different from the person who thinks it wasn't kind. And if you think it's kind, if you think I'm being kind, I'm not the same as you who thinks I'm kind. And I'm not different from you who thinks I'm kind. And if I really don't want to be kind, then it's not kindness either.

[42:44]

So I want to be kind, I really do, but I really don't know what that is. But I'm going to try anyway to do what I don't know what it is. And I'm going to try to take care of all beings that I don't know who they are. But I've heard, and I remind myself, they are me. Everybody's me. And everybody's not the same as me. And nobody's different. So everybody's me, but in a middle way. Not everybody's me in an extreme way. Like you're me in the form of not being me. That kind of me? No. Okay. Sounds like a staff. Sounds like a staff, yeah. Yes, Catherine? This is the hardest thing I've ever done. I'm wondering if it will get easier, or is this all there is?

[43:47]

Oh, this is the hardest thing you've ever done? Yes. Yeah. And you're wondering, is there easier? I'm just wondering. Do I actually need to look forward to that? It will get easier to make sense? Or is this what I need to accept? This is basically the way that all things come out. I like that question. This is the path of ease. And the path of ease is most difficult. This is the path of peace and ease. This is the way to be at peace with everybody. And it is the most difficult way. Because in order to be peaceful with beings, our own and others, is very difficult. It's like balancing on a tight rope, high above the ground,

[44:54]

riding a bicycle, and juggling whatever, something. And if that's easy, then let me come out and start shaking the wire for you. So it's a difficult path, and it is the path of comfort and ease and peace. And the way it's difficult is changing all the time. Which is also difficult. It doesn't stay, at least I got used to the difficulty. No, it keeps changing. Which again, takes you back to the practice. How is the current change in the difficulty? I was just getting used to this difficulty, and now they changed the difficulty on me. So we have to keep remembering that the new situation is,

[45:56]

this is the reality to work with. It's not that we have to like it or dislike it. It's that this is what is being given to us. And this is the current gift, and this is what we practice generosity towards. And again, I'm trying to practice generosity with it, without saying that what I'm doing is generosity or isn't. So, first I try to practice generosity as best I can with all the teachings I've heard, and then as I get into it, I approach not grasping what generosity is. Who is the giver, who is the receiver, and who is the gift? And that's hard to balance all that. It's hard to learn how to be wholehearted all the time with everything.

[46:59]

So I shared the New Yorker cartoon with many of you. It's from a fairly recent New Yorker, and the cartoon has a picture of... Let's see, I think it's Tommy Worm and... I don't know, Peter Caterpillar. They were friends, and one day Peter Caterpillar turned into a butterfly. Worms are... Worms are very slow, so... One moment, it looks like a caterpillar,

[48:10]

and then they hardly even notice this high-speed cocoon building, and then the butterfly emerging. All they see is a caterpillar and butterfly. So it was a shocking transformation to Tommy Worm. He went home and asked his mother about it, and what it said to most people's eyes when he told his mother is she said to him, that's not your concern. But I misread it. And I thought she said, does that concern you? Is that your concern? She said, it isn't your concern. I thought she said, is it your concern? They're both good motherly responses, but I like my misreading better. And then the moral of the story is, which I also misread, but the moral of the story is,

[49:13]

it's more like a New York moral. The moral of the story is, not everybody has to know everything all the time. But I thought it said, everybody has to know everything all the time. And I actually think that that's true, that really everybody has to know everything all the time. But that's hard, to know everything all the time. In other words, it's hard to be a Buddha. Buddhas know everything all the time, and we all need to be Buddha. But I know some people think, not everybody needs to know everything all the time. And I myself, to tell you the truth, not the truth, but to tell you the story, there's a lot of stuff that I don't know about

[50:17]

what's going on, you know. Like a lot of gossip I'm not in on. And I'm kind of okay with that. But I still feel like I need to know everything all the time. I don't necessarily need to hear this piece of gossip, but I need to know everything about that piece of gossip. Maybe minus hearing it. Unless I hear it, then I need to know everything all the time. And this summer, I'll come over here and discuss some other kinds of teachings with you, because you need to know everything all the time.

[51:18]

But there'll be, you know, just another example of reality that won't be the same as the reality that we had here, and it won't be different. But it may look different, though. The title of the class is different, the words will be different, but they won't be different, and they won't be the same. But when they're different, it can be difficult. And when they're the same, it can be difficult. But then we have to somehow not fall for that, that sameness and difference. And yet not reject the appearance of, boy, this really sounds different. He's talking different than he did the other day. Or how boring, he's talking the same. So it looks like that sometimes. Like, this is the same old thing. Or, no, this is different.

[52:25]

I want the same old thing. I want the same old person. I don't want the same old person. Well... Yes? Do you have a gift? I have a gift. Thank you. And my gift is, I'm struggling with sameness and difference around staffs. And while you were walking across the room with your wooden staff, I couldn't help but notice that your attendant, played by Charles, was carrying an electronic staff beside him. Yes. And it struck me that the recorder is the new staff in a lot of ways. And you carry that around with you when you teach. And your teachings are captured there. And I was also curious because I think you started your journey toward the staff talking about putting your interviews on the internet.

[53:28]

And it struck me that, in today's world, that's probably going to happen sooner or later. Whether you do or somebody else records them in your interview. Because we have WikiLeaks now. And this is the world we live in. You know, we're knowing everything all the time. And I'm just curious, you know, so I'm sitting here looking at these two staffs. Yeah. And I'm trying not to fall into sameness or difference about them, but I'm curious about your thoughts about this new staff. And now that we can listen to these teachings virtually without being in this room with you. Or maybe someday listen to Dokusan interviews without being in the room itself. It just strikes me as if there's something about the intimacy in this tradition that's based on interaction. And now the interaction is shifting to that staff. Somewhat divorced from

[54:30]

the reality we're sitting in right now. For all night I could be sitting at the beach listening to an iPod of this talk. And you see you see challenges in this new in this different or same reality with this electronic staff. Do I see challenges? Yes. It isn't like these things appear and I didn't see challenges before and now I see challenges. And it's not like I didn't see challenges before and these things show up and oh, now I have a challenge. No. These things are not interfering with the challenging. So the challenge goes on and now these are joining the challenging.

[55:32]

These are joining the army of challenges. Is the path getting harder? I don't think it's getting harder. I don't think it's getting harder. And I don't think the path is the same as it used to be or different. So I don't think it's harder really. I think it's always been hard and it's going to continue to be hard for quite a long time as far as I can tell because there are so many beings and the beings are like they're using this equipment and pretty soon I hear that this equipment is going to be installed into the flesh. Right? They're talking about putting microchips into butterflies so that they can spy. So that they can pilot the butterflies to places

[56:39]

and then look through the butterfly to see various... have a butterfly go into some place and you can get them to go in and then look around and see what's going on there. And some people think we shouldn't be doing that to butterflies without their permission. But some humans actually would be willing to have chips put in their head so that they could play better chess or whatever. So that's challenging. So people with or without chips in their body or in their hands are challenging. People with this equipment are challenging. Yes. Yes. Challenge, challenge, challenge. But I don't necessarily feel it's more. And I don't feel it's less. I don't so much think that the intimacy is affected.

[57:48]

I think that the things that are intimate are changing. So now we have to be intimate with a whole new... What do you call it? A whole... This snow that's piled in a silver bowl, it's fresh snow. So it's fresh snow. This is fresh snow. Conadive is school. It's fresh snow in a silver bowl. What was the question that led to that? Was it... Is the meaning of the ancestors and the meaning of the teaching the same or different? No, that was the ducks. What is our tradition? And our tradition is intimacy. What is the intimacy of our tradition? How are you representing this tradition?

[58:49]

How is your intimacy with people a thousand years ago? How is that? It's like putting what's happening now, working with what's happening now and seeing that what's happening now is kind of like snow in a silver bowl. Snow and a silver bowl are kind of similar, but they're not the same and they're not really different. So I think intimacy is reality. Intimacy is reality or intimacy is that what we got to work with now is what we got to work with now. And the only way we're going to realize reality is by working with this. And there is an intimacy which we can realize and by realizing intimacy between this and all of reality, it's always the same. But the staff is changing all the time. As you said, now it's electronic staff.

[59:52]

So I need different types of attendants to carry this staff from the ones who carry this staff. And some of the attendants think that I'm, you know, expect that I'm going to be like a galloping horse, but really what they get is a limping turtle. The important thing is that I have somebody to work with. And I do, see? I've got this, which means I've got you. And you've got me. And it's difficult that we have each other. Let's see. When I think of intimacy, I think of warmth. You think of warmth. And I don't think of ice so much.

[60:55]

You don't? Or snow. What about, today I went swimming in the Pacific Ocean. Were you being intimate? Yeah. Oh. I was. I went swimming in the Pacific Ocean at Muir Beach. And this is the first time I've gone swimming this year, so I'm kind of out of shape. Me and the ocean are kind of like, we haven't been intimate recently. So I went in and it was kind of cold. And then it got kind of like, even colder. So I moved away from the super cold back to the other cold. And I stayed, you know, it was a little colder closer to the beach than out. You know how windy? Did anybody see the ocean today? Very windy. So it was really cold. But I was intimate with that stuff. So the intimacy is warm, yeah?

[61:57]

But it's sometimes warm with something cold. So, yeah, intimacy you could say is warm. I have no problem with that. And then can you be warm with the cold? Is that what ducks do? That's what they do, yeah. And they've got all kinds of advantages over us. They've got that oil all over them that insulates them. And they've got fat. You ever eat a duck? They've got a lot of fat around everything. And they have these high-tech gloves on their feet. That stuff is really high-tech thermal covering. They can stand, you know, anyway. And chickens? Also, chickens have really good gloves on, too. So the chickens are being intimate with the tree, right? Yeah, and they're also being intimate with the cold, but the way that they want to negotiate is by being up in the tree. So is one better than the other?

[63:00]

Is the duck better than the chicken? Yeah. Definitely. But, although ducks are definitely better than chickens, ducks are not the same or different from chickens. I'm just kidding. About everything. Yes? How would I like you to use them? I don't know how I'd like you to use them. I mean, I would like you to use them for the welfare of all beings. But it might be best if they were not available

[64:06]

for anybody to listen to, but just spread the word that they're going to be used for the welfare of all beings. You can say that. That won't be it. That would be you saying it rather than it being recorded here. So, if anybody has any suggestions to this very kind person about how to use these tapes, do you welcome them? Absolutely. He welcomes your suggestions. Any other gifts tonight? Yes? Why was the teacher's answer to the mower? Why was his response to the mower not an answer? I don't remember.

[65:08]

There was a reference to one where the teacher's response was not an answer. I don't remember. That wasn't the question. The question was, what is the meaning of the mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east? What's the meaning of that? That was the question. That was one of the questions. And the answer was, the teacher asked him back, are you quoting such and such? And the monk said,

[66:11]

no, I'm not quoting that, I'm quoting this other thing. So, the monk asked him the meaning and the teacher asked the monk what the source of his quote was. And the monk said, no, you got it wrong, teacher. And the teacher said, oh, sorry, I'm getting a little weak and senile. I'm becoming a dotard. Can a male or female dotard be a Zen master? Can a dotard be a Buddha? Some people are nodding and nobody's going, definitely no, I can see. In Berkeley you wouldn't dare, right? I told you the story, right,

[67:21]

about the famous Zen master that I went to visit, right? I told you that story, didn't I? Do you remember that story? The old one? Yeah, the very old one. And, you know, when I looked at him drooling, I really profoundly wondered, what is a Zen master? With Suzuki Roshi, I really didn't wonder that much, I just thought, well, this is cool, this is a cool Zen master. If this is what a Zen master is, fine. But, you know, it was just fine. The way he was a Zen teacher was kind of okay with me and it was okay with most other people, too. But I noticed that a few people had a little difficulty with him. But I had like zero. And I said to him one time, how come I don't have any problems? Am I missing something? And he said, you will. But then he died.

[68:24]

Did you have a problem with that? Yeah. I've had a problem with that for 39 years. And that problem is my koan. And yours. My koan is your koan. The problems I have with him dying, you have with him dying. You can't get away from it. Any more than I can. We can't get away from each other's problems. And my problem is not the same as your problem. Right? And it's not different either. And some of you could think, no, it's the same. I have the same problem as you. And some of you think, no, I have different. It's okay to think that.

[69:24]

Just don't fall for that thought. Be so kind to that thought that you're liberated from it. I would like to be so kind to the thought that I'm not you, that I'm different from you, that I'm liberated from that thought. I wish to be liberated from the thought that I'm different from you. And that I'm the same as you. Can I say what you just said? Because people back couldn't hear you, could you? Is this kindness? Is this kindness a way of practicing equality

[70:28]

with what appears to be the same and different? Is this kindness a way of practicing equality? Is kindness practicing equally with sameness and difference as the practice of the ancestors? Yes. The practice of the ancestors is to harmonize sameness and difference by not grasping either. Not grasping means don't grasp them as true or false. Just take care of both. That's the practice of the ancestors. That's the mind of the great sage of India. It's that way of being. And I seem to be able to remember that. But if you hang out with me longer you may notice I forget. Won't that be something? So you can remind me.

[71:30]

You can remind me what the scriptures say when I forget them. Please learn them so you can remind me. Yes. When you said that now take this teaching everywhere you go, I felt like you're going to die soon. Yes. I should have been more kind to you. Yeah, don't wait until I'm dead to be kind to me. Start now. And I don't want to wait until you're dead before I start being kind to you. Thank you very much. Aileen, could I give you a report?

[72:42]

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