I think this is our last class of this year anyway. And I don't know if you'll be continuing to study these stories in by looking at books or by coming to these meetings. But I just thought I might say a few words about working with these stories. These are old stories, and in some sense they're stories about something that happened once.

[01:31]

in a sense, they're not really what happened, but they're stories about something that happened. They're stories about somebody's experience of something. They're stories about somebody's experience. And these stories have been told and retold primarily in communities of, communities about, to some extent communities about, communities of people who were, who saw themselves as in the tradition of those who transmitted these stories.

[02:46]

Stories are not always about people in the tradition, but they're stories about, they're stories which the people in the tradition have been repeating. And I I hesitate to say that the tradition which had been telling these stories would end if we stopped telling these stories. I hesitate to say that. But it might be so. Only in this tradition had these stories been told quite a bit. Some other people tell these stories, but not too much. There are people who tell Zen stories, but the stories that we've been studying in this book are sort of more the in-house stories than some of the other good Zen stories.

[03:55]

Some of the other Zen stories are not even Zen stories necessarily, but Zen gets credit for them. You know, like that one about the guy, probably, usually it stays in China, this story. It's about this Chinese guy whose son, no, it's about a Chinese guy who had some horses. Remember that story? About the Chinese guy who had some horses and the horses ran away. They ran away or got stolen. You know? They either ran away or got stolen. He had some horses. He lost his horses. And they either got stolen or ran away. You know that story? And then the people, his neighbors said, oh, it's too bad that you lost your horses, because you lost your horse, I mean.

[04:58]

You know that story? And he said, maybe so. Is it coming in? You know that story? You don't? Well, you're going to learn it tonight, then. So then, after a while, the horses came back. On their own, I think. I mean, the horse came back on its own. And it brought with him a herd of wild horses. And everybody said, wow, you got your horse back? Plus, your horse brought a bunch of wild horses back with him or her. you're so lucky. And he said, maybe so. You hear that story? And then his son got on one of these beautiful wild horses and fell off and broke his leg. And everybody in the village said, oh, it's too bad. Your son broke his leg. We're really sorry. He said, maybe so.

[05:59]

And then the Army officials came to the town and inducted all the able-bodied young men to go in the army. But his son couldn't go because he had a broken leg. So everybody in the village said, oh, you're so lucky your son had a broken leg, didn't get to go in the army. And he said, maybe so. So that's the story. And that's not a Zen story, but people say it's a Zen story just because they like to say it's a Zen story rather than saying a Chinese story. Right? You're sitting at Starbucks, you know, you don't say... A Chinese story, you say, is a Zen story. It's cooler. Or maybe a Sufi story. But even most of the Sufi stories have been taken over to Zen. You know about that? We're getting credit for all kinds of really cool Sufi stories.

[07:02]

It also happens that sometimes people are quoting the Dalai Lama now and saying, I said it. Reb's shorter than Dalai Lama. Or His Holiness the Dalai Lama said. Did I say that? Sometimes I know it wasn't me. Brother David often quotes a Dalai Lama and says, I said it. Anyway... There's these stories, right? And so... I don't want to say this. I'm not saying this. Don't say I said this. But somebody has to tell these stories. And these stories, like most other stories, like stories that are stories, are... It's rare that people get together and tell stories

[08:27]

that are this old anymore. Has this been happening to you any other place besides here? That you get together with a group of people who are into a tradition, and part of that tradition is not only these stories, but telling these stories? Anything else like that you heard about? Yes? There is something else? What? In another tradition. So there's another tradition and they tell Sufi stories. So I'd like to say some things about stories. Stories are, generally speaking, they're not readily verifiable. And two major kinds of human communication that have undermined storytelling are, one is the novel.

[09:44]

When the novel of Roe's storytelling started to wane. And another thing, which has been going on all along, is the communication of information. This has been happening from probably as early as storytelling, maybe even before. But now information is becoming more and more a mode of communication that undermines storytelling because information sharing or information communication, information is verifiable and it's verifiable quite rapidly. It's almost like verifiable as soon as you hear it. It makes sense. As soon as the information is completed, it already makes sense.

[10:52]

The stories, however, do not make sense right away. These stories don't. I would suggest to you that stories that make sense right away are not the old ones. Now, some of the old ones might make sense right away, but the way they make sense right away is usually just to you. Other people have different interpretations, and so I heard this example of of a story told by Herodotus about an Egyptian king who was beaten and captured by a Persian king and instead of just killing him he had him chained up by a roadway so he had to watch the the victory procession of the Persian army.

[11:57]

And so there he was, you know, at the edge of the road and all the Persian soldiers going by. And then as part of the procession, his daughter now sold into like slavery, just to be like, she'd be like a maid or something, walking by. dressed like a maid, something like a girl going to get water by the river. And then a little bit later, but when his daughter went by, he was unmoved and just kept his eyes down and didn't move. And then his son was brought by, and his son was being brought by with those who would be executed. And again, he didn't move. He showed no sign of being touched. And then one of his servants was taken by.

[13:05]

And then he broke down and started smacking his head with his hands. And so that's a story that was told 2,000 years ago, and I'm telling you again tonight. And you may be touched by this story, or you may not. But I didn't explain to you anything about the story, and the story is not verifiable. And yet I'm telling you this story, and the story has been told for 2,000 or 3,000 years. However, The novel and information communication make it so that people don't very often tell stories like this. And again, not very often are there communities where the stories, where the telling of the stories is one of the key elements in the community. That a community gets together and tells stories which are old,

[14:09]

and which arose from experience, which give rise to experience, which are not explained in the process of telling them. The whole story gets told without stopping on the way through to explain it, and the story itself doesn't explain itself. and it's not verifiable in its own terms. It doesn't make sense of itself. And it's an opportunity for people to get together and share the experience of the storytelling and form a community around sharing experience. And I think that there is sometimes in these koan classes a sense that there is a right interpretation of these stories.

[15:18]

In other words, that there is an explanation of these stories, and people are sometimes afraid, I think have been afraid, to express themselves and share experience with other people who are celebrating the story. because they think there's a right answer or a right explanation or even an explanation period. Part of what makes the story a story which goes on a long time is that it doesn't come with an explanation. It's more compact. And because it doesn't come with an explanation, it is more compact, it is easier, not easier exactly, but goes in to the body.

[16:25]

But part of what has happened is because these stories have been used as Dharma study community, dharma study community, community of dharma studies tools, there's developed, as you know, a kind of idea where teachers give these stories and then sort of the idea is that people are tested about their understanding of the story. And even though I think it's also said that you're not supposed to be explaining the story to the teacher, you're supposed to be expressing your understanding but not necessarily explaining But anyway, the idea that you're being tested I think has maybe part of the reason why this storytelling tradition, if it ever was alive in Zen, is dying. That it's turned into more now a testing system in a lot of people's minds.

[17:31]

That there is a definite answer. And so it makes, well, it has various effects. I think originally when these stories were being told and retold in China and then in Japan, they might have been discussing them, but again, they would be, I think originally, bringing up explanations or interpretations, but everybody was doing it. It wasn't like... a system where somebody had the right answers and then they were using the test. So these stories have come to be used that way, and that is the use of them, but I think it doesn't necessarily build community or maintain community around the tradition. It's questionable whether it does. Among all the people who are studying Buddhism in Japan, even within the Rinzai school, not too many people are spending their daily lives

[18:38]

studying koans in the sense of studying with the teacher to get the right answers or to pass these koans. Aside from that, people are not telling these stories much, as far as I know. But again, aside from this kind of group or the Sufi group in San Francisco or something, are people telling stories, old stories? And particularly, are they telling stories of a tradition that they have joined? So I think last week, the way we studied the koan was not that I told you what it meant, And it really wasn't that you told everybody else what it meant. I don't know what it was, but it's something closer to each of you expressing yourselves and sharing, in some sense, your experience of the story.

[19:46]

You may not have said, this is my experience of the story, but your expression had something to do with your experience of the story as the story happened for you in the class. and also between classes, like Vernon, you know, choose your helmet, right? That's because he was thinking about the story as he's riding his motorcycle over the bridge, right? Has that ever happened, something like that? So it came out, he was sharing his experience of riding his motorcycle while thinking about the story. And I think some of you may have done something like that too. The story was impacting on you before and or during the class. And I asked you, what do you see? And what do you say? But what you say has something to do with what you see, I think. So you shared your, to some extent,

[20:52]

Maybe some of you held back or whatever. Maybe some of you didn't really dare say what you were really experiencing and speak from there. But anyway, maybe you did. Maybe you all pretty much shared your experience with us. And the telling of the story was the situation in which we shared experience. These stories are not just stories to build a community, but they're to build a community of people dedicated to the liberation of at least somebody. Now, it also can be a community which lets some people in who are not interested in anybody's liberation. We don't check people before they come to Zen Center to see if they're into liberating themselves and or others.

[21:56]

So some people could be coming in here just to get a good meal or to be in a nice ecological preserve. It used to be that way that we sometimes find that people are at Green Gulf just because they wanted to be in this valley. And the fact that there is Zen being practiced here was something that they would go through the motions just to be here. But still, that's fine. But the long, the long-standing agenda for these, the community of these storytellers is about liberating other beings. So these stories have something to do with making a community for liberating other beings, and also the stories also bear on this liberation process.

[22:58]

These stories, I hope these stories can help you stand up to the deceptiveness of the world, the deceptiveness of the phenomenal world, which we all together also are perpetrating. So we are part of the world that's surrounding us. We are part of what supports power elites that are trying to put certain stories out there for people. Not stories, but information and certain kinds of... Yeah, certain kinds of deceptions

[24:03]

We're part of that. We're not separate from that. But these stories are ways for us to cut through. And once again, in a careful or gentle way, let's watch out for whether we're trying to get the right answer to these stories in the future. If we never have another colon class, try to please consider that studying these are not about getting the right answer. These stories, it's fine for you to use these stories Just read them yourself. But I'm kind of putting out tonight that the real point of the stories is communication tools.

[25:12]

So that's why this class, this group, is, to me, is, I don't want to say more important than the stories or something, but something like that. the group is really important because it's the communication within the group that's the real point of these stories. And again, not the communication of some people know what these stories are about and are going to tell the other people, but rather that these stories are ways for everybody who's listening to learn to be a storyteller also. That these stories belong to all of us, for all of us to use. And it's another tricky point is that

[26:25]

After the story is told and after the commentary is given, we come to the verse. And if you take away the commentary and just have the case and the verse, then it's maybe easier for me to say there's the case and there's the verse, there's the case and then there's this poetry written. after the verse. And the poetry is usually, I would say, in praise or celebration of the case. But sometimes the commentator, just before the verse comes, he says something which makes you feel like, well, now Tian Tong's going to tell you what the case is really about. He really now, he's going to tip us off. He's going to explain it. But I don't think you have to see or hear what the commentator is saying as saying that Tien Tung's verse is going to not tell us what the story is about or he's going to explain it to us.

[27:38]

Just that the way he celebrates it is going to be maybe, in terms of what I'm saying tonight maybe, the way he's going to celebrate and praise this case is going to help you not understand the case like the right answer to the case, but it's going to help you express your experience just like he's expressing his. And I'm just talking away here, so I just say that if you can start expressing your experience, find some way to express your experience about the case the way Tian Tung does, if you can write a poem about these cases, not to say necessarily what they mean, although it could be that, you could be sharing your experience of what it means. You could also share your experience of what it doesn't mean.

[28:43]

You could just share your experience of how grateful you are for the case. There's many, many things you could express in a poem about the case. But it seems important that you would be expressing your experience. And that in the future, when you study these cases alone with one other person or in a group, I would say please try to approach them in that way of having these stories be opportunities to share experience and to become a storyteller yourself. in this tradition to help this tradition continue to be alive. Because these are the stories of this tradition.

[29:47]

Yes? I had one more time last week, so I sat with it all week and chewed on it a lot and I wrote something that I'll share with everybody. Okay. To cut away growth is to expose the root. Untrammeled when eyebrow hair will not suffice. To move one hair's breadth from your seat is to do death to the ancients shouting you Suyong in the hall. A broken calf, a canary singing backwards in the night, Suyong's teachings are storm winds stirring up dust, seed pods that burst out in fire. Whoever seeks balance must find serenity in the fall. So that case is a short one, right?

[31:13]

At the end of the summer practice period, Sui An said to the group, I've been talking to you people all summer. I wonder, does Sui An still have any eyebrows? And that's the case, right? That's the story. There's no explanation. There's no verification. It's not very interesting. And then we have three comments. But again, those three comments by his Dharma brothers, you can supplement for the rest of your life. So now you kind of know that story, right? It's nice and short, doesn't come with an explanation that you have to remember. You've got the story, pretty much, don't you? If you don't, it wouldn't be that hard, too.

[32:18]

If you heard it a few more times, you'd probably have it. Yes? I was just wondering if you would explain something that you said a few minutes ago. Yes. You said about these stories. Yeah. They go into the body. Yeah. Can you talk about that? What I just said, no. Because they're compact, because they don't have explanations, they're built to be easily memorized. easy for them to go into your body, and then for you to have an experience. If a story is really long, plus it has explanations, the explanations may distract you from your experience of the story. That's why I often suggest don't read the commentary at first, because if you read the commentary, it may distract you from your feeling about the story.

[33:19]

And your feeling about the story is often, people's feelings often is, they often feel frustrated. Part of the reason why they feel frustrated is because of their expectations of their reading material. If you're usually reading novels or information material, then these texts won't be giving you that. But they do give you an experience. To be able to read a few lines and feel frustrated is pretty good, especially since it's not like an anonymous letter criticizing you. It's just a story about some Chinese monks or some Indian monks. Why would you be frustrated by that? Well, there it is. Sometimes it is like an anonymous letter. Sometimes it is.

[34:20]

Sometimes it's like an anonymous criticizing letter. How is it a criticism? It's like Dimwit? Why don't you know what they're saying? Right. But the story is not saying dimwit. Somebody else is saying dimwit. Of course. No, yeah, I understand. You read the story and then you have an experience called somebody inside saying dimwit. So that's the experience. The story isn't the experience, but these stories often give rise to dimwit or, ooh, we got a Zen master here. Well, I can hardly wait for this class. Wait until they hear this. This is what we call insight. Could you open the door a little bit?

[35:23]

Sure. You mentioned that this storytelling tradition has died out. Would you say that? Yeah, I think so. I think storytelling is, you know, pretty much dying out in the modern world. It seemed to be something, if you look at, if you see those, you know, those movies about those people that live out there in the woods, you know, at night they get around the fire and they go, so primitive, so-called primitive people, people who still live, you know, around fires and stuff, and don't have TV, they're still telling stories. That's what people used to do at night. And we still do it at camp, right? We still do it here. But generally, over the whole population, I think it is dying out. Yeah, so what I'm wondering is, is there any kind of dialogue or exchange going on among modern Zen masters?

[36:27]

Stories, colons of exchanges or responses, and there's really a little bit of that around. And I'm wondering if you could pick that up. I think it's dying out, but still happening. First of all, where are the Zen masters? Second of all, but when Zen students meet, whether they're... I once was sitting over here in this room, you know, talking to some people, and one of them said, If Zen teachers have to worry about hurting their students, there won't be any Zen teachers. Hurting? Hurting, harming. If Zen teachers have to worry about harming their students, there won't be any Zen teachers. And I said, well, there are almost no Zen teachers around here because almost everybody is afraid of harming their students.

[37:34]

so I don't think there are any Zen teachers. And then afterwards, I was walking out with some of these people, some of whom either other people would call Zen teachers or would call themselves Zen teachers, and one of them said, you weren't serious, were you? I don't know what I said, but I might have said, I don't want to have any students because then I have to worry about hurting them and if I had to worry about hurting them I wouldn't be a Zen teacher. So I have no students. So then I have to worry about hurting them and I can be a Zen teacher. Okay? That was a conversation that happened. So after that one, those people weren't talking to me anymore. However, the Zen students are, to some extent, still going between groups.

[38:41]

So they're still bringing messages back and forth between the teachers. So there's still some of that. And there's some correspondence going on and some book writing and book reviewing going on. So there's still something like that going on. but it's not so much around the stories. And part of that is because the people who are most into the stories are into the stories having a right answer. So there's not that much to talk about because they all have agreed on the answers. So within the koan system, the answers are all set. They're not to be discussed. They're not to be discussed. They're to be discovered, figure out the right answer, get the right answer, and then that's it. You don't really like, there's no more debate anymore. Now hopefully they're making new stories, and then those don't have right answers yet. So there's not a right answer to that dialogue I had, but whether people will repeat it or not, not clear because you probably didn't even hear it straight.

[39:46]

I'll just say it a few more times. Yes, Linda? I went to the Torah portion that night was the story of Jacob and Esau, the brothers that were twins. And the rabbi told the story. She told it like, sort of like once upon a time, and everybody I could feel kind of waved that spell of listening to this book. And then at the end, she asked for comments, you know, from the congregation. And I was really taken in by this story, what it meant, and Rebecca's mother, how she lied and then told him, you know, just the whole thing. It was like, I don't recall ever having really listened to it very carefully before. But the audience, the combination, they didn't really get involved.

[40:48]

Two people raised their hand and said a little something, and that was it. But I could imagine, and maybe there are still communities that have a very lively event going on around those stories. I don't know. Well, there's an opportunity there, right? Yeah. And it could easily go from that opportunity which you were there for to zero. All it would take is for that rabbi not to tell a story again next time. And those people who did raise their hands to not hear another story and then realize the stories aren't going to be told and then lose interest and stop listening. So part of storytelling is somehow to bring up stories in such a way, to bring up stories that are of a kind and in such a way that people will listen to them. That somebody's listening is part of what's going on here. These stories are pretty good when read, but then there's something else when you hear them.

[41:59]

So mouth-to-mouth is a big part of it. So it's okay to read them before class or after class, but in a lot of ways I think the way to read them is to read them so you can memorize them, so you can say them, and so somebody can hear them, and so somebody can say it back to you and you can hear them. I had a student here for a while who knew Yeats pretty well. So every time he came to Doksan, I'd ask him to recite a poem. And he did. And I would listen to the poem. I asked people to write essays as part of the training. and I ask them to come and read their essays to me. I don't read them myself, they read them, so I can hear their essay, I can hear them. So for me, hearing is really important.

[43:04]

Reading is okay, but again, there is something about hearing, and not just hearing, but hearing somebody else talk to you, and hearing somebody else say something to you, that's been said over and over in the tradition, which you are perhaps seeing yourself as entering. Cedar? I'm just, I'm a little puzzled by, my experience is that there's a great revival in storytelling. And not only have I been in groups where people got together and discussed this, usually European parakeets. They didn't have to be European, but they usually were. Uh-huh. Or, you know, I mean, people are writing books about these old stories, and they're going around and doing dramatic performances of them, all in the lines that work.

[44:08]

Uh-huh. Well, I don't know what to say. One thing I would say is this. Number one, that the dramatizing of it is questionable. I think that's not the traditional way of doing these stories, to dramatize them. I think the more important thing is to tell the stories in such a way as to communicate experience and get other people to hear so that they can communicate experience. But having professional storytellers who now go and tell stories, they have more to do, I think, with Hollywood than they do with the tradition. I think that the boredom of these stories and the frustration of these stories is more having to do with the tradition. And so part of the revival which you might be seeing might be a revival, but it might not be a revival of a tradition.

[45:14]

It might be doing a new thing, and the new thing might be more closely related to the novel or entertainment rather than due to learning, to receiving a teaching, a folk teaching. So the content of those stories may be folk stories, but the folk stories... are they of a folk? We're the folk of these stories. So that's what I would say about this thing about the key thing I think is to get people involved and to get people sharing experience around these stories and if you see a revival of that I would say That's what I'm talking about. And if it's in a tradition, then I would say, then that's part of the way to revive a tradition. There's more to Zen than telling stories. Part of Zen is not talking to somebody, too.

[46:19]

And I'd want to make a place for that, too. So I would say more about this later this year. But I just want to parenthetically mention that when I ask people to express themselves, expression includes that you don't say anything. I mean, you could come and meet me in silence and that could be full self-expression. You could come and show me yourself thinking about whatever while you're with me and be fully expressing yourself and not hiding at all. And you could also be talking away and hiding. So it's not just that you're making noise or talking or moving your arms and legs, that's expression. Expression could be also silence and still.

[47:23]

So part of our tradition is not telling stories like traditional stories, but being quiet together. But as far as the stories go, part of our tradition is working with these stories, first of all, without explanation. And what experience is there What do you see before anybody explains it to you or before you explain it to yourself? Or if there's no space between hearing the story and explaining it to yourself, then your experience, I guess, is primarily explanation. That could be your experience. Instant explanation. Even every line could be explanation. That would be possible. So here's the next story.

[48:27]

Yes, you may, Reverend Wren, Reverend Forrest. The fact that you've been giving us this story for about a week now, See what you mean about reading it, reading just the case and maybe the verse, but without, you know, like letting it digest a bit without the commentary. Right. Yeah, when I read the cases, I try to read just the case for a while. So here's the case without an introduction. So Yangshan, a great Zen master, meets one of his spiritual uncles, actually grand uncle, and says, what is the meaning of Buddha nature?

[49:50]

His grand uncle Zongyi says, Let me give you a simile. It's like placing a monkey in an empty room that has six windows. Someone outside calls. Monkey, monkey. Simeon, Simeon. And the monkey responds. In this way, it responds through all six windows. And then Yangshan said, well, in the longer version of the story, which is in the commentary, he says, well, that was really good, and I have no

[50:57]

I'm completely clear on what that means, but I have a question. What if the monkey's asleep and then Zongyi gets down from his chair, goes over and grabs Yangshan, holds him and says, monkey, monkey, now you and I see each other, or now you and I see each other. for the first time, or now you and I meet, something like that. That's the story. So there it is. Now you have it. Now we have it. How are you going to keep it well?

[52:02]

How are you going to keep it well? How are you going to keep it well? It's short, so you could keep it, couldn't you? You could remember this. What is the meaning of Buddha nature? I'll give you a simile. It's like putting a monkey in an empty room with six windows. When someone calls from outside, monkey, monkey, the monkey then responds. In this way, when called through all six windows, it responds.

[53:11]

When called through all six windows, it responds. Didn't say what the monkey's response was, did it? Just said the monkey responded. And so it doesn't say what its response is either, right? It just says that it will respond when called, and it will respond through all six windows. Does everybody know what the six windows are? Does anybody not know what the six windows are? You don't. How many people don't know besides Mimi? The six windows are the five are the eye window, the ear window, the nose window, the tongue window, which is inside of the mouth window, the skin window,

[54:22]

Is that it? And the mind window. Pardon? So there's six windows. So it responds through the six windows. What does it respond to through the six windows? Huh? Stimulus. What? Being called. Hmm? Ah. So it responds to something outside. Sense stimuli. Hm? Sense stimuli. It responds to sense stimuli. So there it is. And guess what? You are in this room. with six windows.

[55:30]

And that means somebody's in there with you. So you get to watch it respond through the windows. You can also call to it and watch it respond from somebody else's six windows. But you also get to watch, right, and yourself get to watch the Buddha nature respond when called. I didn't understand what you meant. You are in six windows. Yeah. Pardon? Who's in there with you? That's right. Who is in there with you? Okay. Do you understand? W period, H period, I mean, yeah, W period, H period, O period. The world-honored ones in there with you.

[56:34]

Actually, lots of world-honored ones. So I didn't explain the story. I just defined the terms, what the terms meant. That's all. I have a question. What you were saying, you're in there with it. We think of ourselves as the one that perceives through normal channels, so it doesn't seem like we perceive our Buddha nature.

[57:53]

You don't perceive the Buddha nature? Is that what you're saying? Well, in this particular story, This is the teacher saying, he's been asked, what is the Buddha nature? What's the meaning of it? What's the meaning of the Buddha nature, actually? Not so much what is the Buddha nature, what's the meaning of the Buddha nature? And I forgot to look up the character, but I'd bet, and I don't bet much, but I guess that the term, the word meaning probably might also be this word, might be this word that also means intention. So I don't know for sure, but it might also be that you could translate this as, what is the intention of Buddha nature? And the intention of Buddha nature is like, you know, when called to, it responds through the six senses.

[59:00]

No, its response to the six senses might be that it would call, and then there would be a response to its call through the six senses, too. So it's not so much that you perceive the Buddha nature, it's more like in the activity of responding through the six senses, the Buddha nature is there with that responding. And I said, you know, that you're in the in the thing, but that was conventional language, that you're in there. If there's any sense of you, it's in there. But I'm not saying you really are in there. The sense of self is inside that house. But the self is not something in addition to this responding that happens when called, this responding through the six windows.

[60:20]

The self isn't something in addition on top of the fact that when called it responds through all six windows. So the self isn't something in addition to that responding. The Buddha nature isn't something in addition to that responding, and therefore the self is not something in addition to the Buddha nature, and Buddha nature is not something in addition to the self. If you would set the self up as something in addition to this responding, you wouldn't be able to come up with anything like that. There's no experience like that. There is an experience of self, but that self is all totally accounted for by the responding through these six windows. But so is the Buddha nature. I shouldn't say it's totally accounted for, it's just that it's not, there's nothing in addition to this responding to being called. And then the other thing you also heard is, in this room, I am now it, or I am now not it,

[61:28]

And it is exactly me. So again, in terms of what I just said, this is a good story for, like, sharing experience, because any experience shared, well, let me put it this way, if I say to you, please share your experience, there could be a response to that. And that response, there would be responding through all six windows. So I am saying that. This is being said.

[62:30]

Please. Monkey, monkey. Chunky monkey. Hunky monkey. Hunky dory. Hello. Yes. Hello. [...] I'm talking. Oh, woof. Oh, hoo. No, you go ahead, Pam. How can a monkey be asleep? Wait a second. You have no problem up to that point? Huh? You're okay? What problem do you have up to that point?

[63:35]

Let's not skip over any problems. These are opportunities for responding through the windows. Well, the little bit of problem that I have is that someone calls from outside. Pardon? Besides that, I don't know the people. Besides that, you don't have a problem. Okay, well, the meaning or intention of the Buddha nature, okay? What's the meaning or intention of Buddha nature? Buddha nature is about, huh? To respond. It's about responding, yeah. Buddha nature is not like, hey, Case 52, right? Book of Serenity. The Buddha nature is nothing about inside and outside for the Buddha nature. or north and south, right? Or barbarian or whatever, and cultivated person. That's not about the Buddha nature, right?

[64:37]

But Buddha nature is like, you know, unhindered rain. Buddha nature is vast space. It has no form whatsoever. But it responds according to beings. It responds to beings. That's not what Buddha-nature is, that's sort of the point of Buddha-nature, is that it responds. Got beings, they kind of go, they go, boo-boo, arf-arf, bow-wow, eek-eek, yikes-yike, you know, help-help, hinder-hinder, me-me, and then there's a response to all that, right? And it's a response across these windows, because sentient beings are like calling to windows, and they're inside of windows and outside of windows.

[65:41]

That's where they live, in this house and that house. So the intention of Buddha nature is to respond. Buddha doesn't set up the windows. The windows are set up by living beings. But when the living beings call, and they're into inside and outside, the Buddha nature responds. And its intention is to respond. It wants to respond in such a way as to open people's eyes and so on to the Buddha's wisdom. Wait a second, you have no problems up to that point? Okay, well at that point you can just see that as a response. Somebody's calling, somebody's calling, somebody's saying, somebody's saying, what about if the monkey's asleep?

[66:50]

So now the Buddha nature can respond to that. What if he said, what if the Buddha nature's not asleep? What if the Buddha nature is taking heroin? What if the Buddha nature is dancing? This is a call. This guy is saying to him, he's asking, he's saying, okay, ready? Get set. Hey! Hey! Hey! What's the Buddha nature? Hey! He gets a response, right? So he does it again. Hey! And he gets another response, doesn't he? And what response does he get? It's like Yangshan's going, monkey, monkey. And the monkey says, it's like this. Monkey, monkey. And then he says, monkey, monkey.

[67:52]

Monkey, monkey. What if the monkey's asleep? And the guy says, monkey, monkey. Now we're meeting each other. Both of them are calling and responding, right? They're responding by calling. Yangshan's responding to the call of the teacher. When you go to see a teacher, the teacher's calling out to you, ask me a question, give me a job. So then Yangshan says, what's the intention of Buddha nature? Now, if you still want to know about how the Buddha-Ninja could be asleep, okay, what's the response to that? What are you doing now? I don't think I can be asleep.

[68:53]

What? I don't think I can be asleep. So, that's your response? Yeah. Okay, so what's your problem? You never want a response to that? Why he's asking that. Oh, you want to know why he's asking that? You want an explanation? Huh? There are explanations. Okay, ready? Ladies and gentlemen, give her some explanation about why he said that. Tell her. He's teasing teachers. He's teasing the teacher. OK? Explanation number one. What's another explanation? He's a really good student. He's a really good student. And what's so good about what he's doing? He's responding. He's responding. Contesting sagacity from across the river. Taking off the armor and burying the army. Explanation number three.

[69:58]

Next explanation. If we're all fundamentally endowed with Buddha nature, why do we need to practice? You don't have to like my explanation. Give her another explanation now. Give her an explanation about your explanation. This is like explanation 5B. We talk about the Buddha nature as being realized or unrealized, or we talk about people being asleep or awake. What about delusion? Let's have some more explanations for this person. She wants some. Give her a bunch. He wants further clarification and reinforcement from his teaching as to what rudimentary is.

[71:02]

He wants to explode the simile. He wants to what? Explode the simile. He wants to explode the simile. He wants a really direct, rigorous encounter, not a story. Now I heard your simile, teacher. Nothing is unclear, but there's one thing more. What about when the monkey inside is asleep? When the monkey outside wants to meet with it, then what? Anybody else want to give some explanations? Then he shows him. Wake me up. Wake me up. Shows him. Go to sleep. I mean, here's another response.

[72:06]

Okay. Responded by being asleep, and then the master jumps and says, oh, I mean, he's asleep too. She wants the explanation over there. He decided to go to sleep. Thank you. one marrying the other, one, you know, sort of responding to the other. Excuse me? Maybe Yangshan wants to hear from Zhang Ji that he cannot be impervious to alienation. Worry about when all the senses are extinguished. That's a good explanation. Seldom. Seldom. Yeah. We've been waiting for those bananas all week. We became yesterday, right? Yeah, that banana looks really good right now, doesn't it?

[73:20]

Yeah, here we go. Okay, so... This reminds me of a Zen story I heard about. There was this conference between Zen masters or practitioners and psychiatrists or psychoanalysts, and what the Zen master did, the Zen master and his student went up to the front of the room, and one of them ate a banana, and he said, that's it. That's it. I have a question, which I kind of want to ask you. Not so much what's the intention of Buddha nature.

[74:36]

OK? But I just changed my mind. I do want to ask you, what is the intention of the Buddha nature? OK? That's my question. What's your answer? Pardon? It doesn't have intention. It just is. It doesn't have intention. I have a little story, you know, that was told to me today. It's a true story. A woman was at an airport and she was sitting waiting in the airport and a man sat down next to her.

[75:38]

and a seat away meanwhile she took out a package of cookies among the seat next to her and started to eat them one by one and the man next to her started to eat the cookies also When they never said anything to each other, this woman started to get really uptight. But she said, I'm a really good, she talked to herself, I'm a really good person, I'm not going to complain about this. Then they got down to the last cookie. And the man picked up the cookie, broke it in half, and gave it to the woman, half to her, and then he ate it. It's insane. She got up, she went. you know, it was time to get on the plane. She got on the plane, she was sitting in her seat, and she had to get out her tickets or something, so she reached in her purse, and there was the unopened bag of cookies.

[76:43]

She was eating. Maybe she had two bags. Cookie, cookie. Was that woman you? It could have been. Maybe. I'll be on fire. I'll be on fire. I'd really like one of two things to happen. One would be, in both of them, we'd all be saying at the same time, the line from your end would come on. And once we make it, you know, we would see each other. And either we could do in pairs where we'd just say, yeah, to the person next to you, or we could all say it to each other in time.

[77:48]

But I'd really like us to say it to each other. Okay, let's get... She would like everybody to say, monkey, monkey, me and you see each other. She wants everybody to say that somehow. Start by saying it all at the same time. Ready? One, two, three. Monkey, monkey, you and I see each other. Now, turn to somebody and say it simultaneously. Are you happy now? You would need to what? You need to do it with each person? No, you mean one-on-one with each person. Is that what you mean? There is a way to do that. There it is. So, this is a special request I have of you all, okay?

[79:18]

Would you all, as you leave, go over and say that to her? She'll be staying a little late tonight. And don't push to the head of the line. What kind of monkey is that? What kind of monkey is that? The other way would be instead of just waiting around to go do it to her, you could do it to other people while you're waiting. Okay? Okay. That's before this. The grabbing is prior to this particular place. She didn't ask for the grabbing, did you? Grabbing is optional. You can establish the grabbing prior to the discourse, in the commentary.

[80:27]

Stuart, would you care? No, thank you. Jeremy? I'd like some. He's been waiting for this for some time. Reading the case, it seemed like the teacher grabbed him, as in some of the Rinzai stories. But reading the commentary, it sounded more like he took his hand. It was kind of warmer and more personal. So this exercise is available to us. Is there anything else you'd like to do? before we do this exercise that Carol has asked us to do? We should listen to the rain.

[81:29]

I'm not trying to talk you into becoming, what do you call it, responsible for this tradition. But if you want to be responsible for this tradition, then please be responsible for this tradition and don't let it get lost. And the stories are part of it. Sitting is part of it. Being kind to each other is part of it. Bowing is part of it. Walking meditation is part of it. Cooking vegetarian feasts is part of it. Cleaning the temple is part of it. Being generous is part of it. Being patient is part of it. Realizing emptiness is part of it. There's lots of parts to it. This is just one little story tonight, but there are eight million stories in the Naked City.

[83:04]

I found that every time I tried to understand what the story meant this week, I was barrier. I encountered a barrier. Every time he tried to understand, he understood a barrier. I was utterly prevented from understanding the story. And instead, I just had to focus on that he said it, that he said. It's like putting a monkey in a room with six windows and that beautiful poetry, which is that, just that he got and that he knew that he detected this and put it down and set it. And that's all it could, over and over again, how beautiful that was. So please be very kind and gentle with each other.

[84:39]

But if you're ready, you can do like this. You can take somebody's hand and you can say, And they can say, when you take theirs, they can take yours. Or when they take yours, you can take theirs. And you say, monkey, monkey. Now you and I are seeing each other. Now you and I are seeing each other. Monty [...] Monkey, monkey, how are you and I?

[85:52]

Monkey, monkey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, where's the monkey? Hey, hey, hey, where's the monkey? Thank you very much.

[86:17]

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