This case is called Sui Yen's Eyebrows. Sui Yen and these other three characters are all disciples of Shui Fung. So all these poor people are Dharma siblings, same teacher. Tzu-Yan, at the end of a summer retreat, said, all summer I've been talking to you, brethren. Look, Tzu-Yan's eyebrows still there. When hearing this, hearing this question, you know that there's a kind of a folk, or there's a saying in Zen that if you speak about the Dharma inappropriately, your eyebrows, eyebrow hairs will fall out.

[01:54]

So he says, after talking to them all summer, he says, are my eyebrows still there? Okay. This is such a short story that we can go right to work on it.

[03:19]

So right away, I guess, you need to say what you see. So you've got this, I guess, Chinese guy sitting in front of you saying that he's been talking to you all summer and asking you if he has any eyebrows left. So what do you see? John? It sounds like he was just kind of checking in with the monks and see how the summer went, what they thought about it, how they regarded his teachings, how they regarded him.

[04:27]

He'd been useful. They enjoyed their time there. So, how's it been? Well, as it goes on there, it seems as if he got... Oh, by the way, I don't think those other guys were there. Those other guys weren't there? I don't think so. The three guys who answered weren't there? I don't think so. Why? I don't answer why questions. Whoever said that. I think that they heard about this later. I think, probably. It's possible they were there, but I think... Who was he talking to then? He's talking to his students. I don't think these are his students. These are his... They were there. His students were there. His students were there, yeah.

[05:30]

You're his students. Now, you could also imagine that you hear about that you had your own temple someplace else, and words spread to you about what he said to his students, and then you said something. So you don't have to be there if you don't want to. But he was talking to his students, but we don't know what his students said. What his students said aren't recorded. So I think what is that when his brothers heard about this from their you know, when they heard on the Zen, you know, internet, that he said this to his monks at the end of the retreat, that they said this. I wonder if they were with him or not. Do you know? Were the other three guys actually sitting there with Sui Yang?

[06:33]

I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't know that. Well, I don't think so. They might have been. They lived in the same country. But when he was teaching, when he was teaching, I would guess that they were either, when he was teaching his group, that they were either still with their original teacher, it's very fun, or they had their own temples. Now, they might have been visiting him, but basically these are not his students. These are his brothers. And each one of these people had their own group. So one story that I would tell is that he's on one mountain, and he says this to his group. And amongst his group, at the end of the retreat, they run out of the monastery and start wandering around. They go to the other places. They tell the other. other mountains, the other teachers hear about it, and then the other teachers go up to their group, and then the other teachers said, I heard that at the end of the retreat, Brother Suiyan said, asked about his eyebrows, and then they say these three things.

[07:54]

But they might have been in a group. Yes? Yes? I have a vague memory of this case, a similar one occurring in the Mooncliffe record, and it was a series of three cases, and each one of those answers was one of the cases, and then there was a dialogue that ensued. I think you're mixing this... I think you're mixing it up maybe with Bai Jiang... talking to his disciples. A similar case. I think 70, 71, 72, or 71, 72, 73, where he asked a question and gets an answer. And the same question in the next case gets another answer. But this case isn't a blue cliff record. It's case number eight. But it's just one case. And this is another case I'll be in.

[08:58]

Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. So here it is now. It's been a while since he said this. You've gotten word. You heard that he said this. And so John thinks he's just sort of like checking in with the group at the end. I think that's right. And so what do you have to say? How's he doing? How about his eyebrows? Well, it sounds like he... You didn't hear what he said during the whole practice period, but neither did his brothers. They're just responding to this final question that he asked at the end of the thing. Well, it sounds like they thought maybe he spoke the Dharma. No, no, what do you think? Well, I think that he... He's checking in. Do you think his eyebrows did fall off?

[10:00]

No, I think they didn't. Oh, okay. Yeah, so what do you have to say about that? Well, it sounds like that if I were there, I could have gotten kind of excited by what he said. I could have... Are you excited by what he said? Yeah. You are? Yeah, yeah, just a little bit. That's John. He thinks it's pretty cool. So you can all copy him or not. Liz, what do you have to say to Suiyan's question? Do I have my eyebrows or not? He's asking you. I think there's something wrong with him asking that. Fred?

[11:01]

Well, what do you know? So Fred's in the best position. So I'm asked on behalf of this person called and he's asking, does he have eyebrows or does he have any eyebrows left or not? So what do you see? What do you see, Lynn? Eyebrows. What do you see, Kathleen? What did I say? Yeah. So he's asking whether he had his eyebrows or not.

[12:10]

What do you see? Does he have his eyebrows or not? I didn't say he had his eyebrows. I'm asking you, does he have them or not? What do you see? He has one eyebrow. He has one eyebrow. Jane, what do you see? I see myself. You see yourself. How do you feel about that? I'm nervous. So he ends asking Andy about his eyebrows.

[13:15]

What do you have to say? My sense is when So-Yan Asked about his eyebrows. He's saying to you, are your eyebrows still there or no? Is he saying that to you too? And what do you say? They're gone. They're gone. Also, I would offer a little different perspective on speaking against the Dharma, means your eyebrows fall out. There's also a sense that if you speak of the Dharma excessively, your eyebrows fall out. For me, that was said. Yeah, well, against... Talk too much. Talk too much. I think I said inappropriately.

[14:18]

So too much is one of the inappropriate ways. Too little is another way. Just the right amount is another way. Anyway, what Andy's got to say is, no eyebrows on me. Michael, what do you see? What do you see hearing about this, Suiyan? Blinding thought. Pardon? Blinding thought. Blinding? Blinding thought. Liz? I see that you have your eyebrows, but now that you've put your glasses on, it's hard to tell. And my eyes were not so good. Ania.

[15:25]

Well, when I read it, I thought, why would he be asking me a question like that? It was intriguing. He never asked a question like that. I've never been so insulted in my life. It's supposed to be like this. Well. A mouth. What do you see in this case, Daniel? A koan. It's okay to copy other young men.

[16:33]

Yes, Elena. For me, it's a matter of emptiness. Was he talking about emptiness? He better be. He better be. He better be. Otherwise, how can I get to you in this book? Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, okay? Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He's like, you know, Mr. Emptiness. And he's asking, you know, Any eyebrows? Mr. Emptiness has been talking all summer. Any eyebrows left? Has the speech from Mr. Emptiness been appropriate? Is that what he's saying? So what do you see? Yeah, we've checked out his credentials now.

[17:44]

He's OK. He's cleared. He's a master. Now what do you see? He's asking about whether his eyebrows are there. What do you see? No, no, what do you see? Not what could he be. What do you see? You see what he could be? What do you see? You can look at the page. It's okay. It's right on the page. There. And you don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be like Fred either. No, no. Okay. There you go. He's asking if he's got eyebrows, and she can see that she can't see. So we got that straight. You guys are doing good so far. What do you see?

[18:49]

I see maite. What does maite see? Right. You do? Yeah. And Mimi, how about you? What do you see in this case? May I ask a question? If he is a master, it seems to me that he may be asking for approval. Really? Did you say confusing? So you see confusion? Maybe irony. You see irony? She sees irony. Well, it seems so.

[19:52]

I have been training her. Although she came trained, just like you. John, what do you see here in this case? Yes, that's right. I see. Well, I'd like to say I see the time. Because if you were to ask this question, if you'd been speaking, you'd risk losing your eyebrows. Did you like saying that? Did I like saying that? You said you did. Yeah, I did. Lydia, what do you see in this case, in this koan? Okay, but before you get to that guy, what do you have to say about the first guy?

[21:15]

What do you have to say about Tsuyun, the first guy? I'm not really sure what he's talking about. However, maybe he's talking about whoever made off with this guy's eyebrow. Are you ready now, Lynn? Are you ready to tell us what you see in this case? I'm still seeing eyebrows. Okay. One eyebrow, I thought you said. No. That was somebody else? Sorry, Kathleen. You see eyebrows? Yes. Okay. Elenia, what do you see here? I see eyebrows that are in danger. Eyebrows entering danger.

[22:17]

What do you see, Maya? A razor. A razor. What do you see, Roberta? I see love. Klaus, see anything in this case? Great doubt. Great doubt. How does it feel to see love? Really warm. How does it feel to see great doubt? Great love. Cindy, what do you see? I see eyebrows. You see eyebrows? Cindy, what do you see? I don't think I see. I don't think I see, she says. Liz, do you see something in this case?

[23:26]

I feel something. What do you have to say about what you feel? Feeling what you feel, what do you have to say? Feeling. What do you have to say about The eyebrow question. The eyebrow check-in. I see a question and I see my own sense of separation from others. What do you see, Megan? I see that we all have items. Where do you see Noah?

[24:31]

Right. When I first came to Zen Center, there was a bookstore, a Buddhist bookstore, right up the hill from the Zen Center. The Zen Center used to be over on Bush Street. And there was a Buddhist bookstore up the hill a little bit from Zen Center. And I went in there one time with a high school friend of mine who was also studying at the Zen Center. We went in there to look at the Zen books in the bookstore, and there was a picture of D.T. Suzuki on the cover of one of the books. And he had these eyebrows, you know, about maybe almost three inches long. Two inches long, anyway. Going, shh, all the way, shh. Like Lee Riggs's. Like Lee Riggs's? Lee? Like his eyebrows.

[25:33]

And my friend told me the story about eyebrows. Except the way he took it was that way, that when you talk too much, your eyebrows get really long. What do you see, Greg? I see eyebrows, but no hair. What do you see, Jeremy? Take your glasses off. I'm alone, Jeremy. I'm too close to see any eyebrows. Is that what you see?

[26:44]

That's fine. Mahin, what do you see in this case? I think, I think he knows about his eyebrow. He's asking. He knows about his own eyebrows? He knows. You can see that, that he knows. He checked before he asked. What do you see, Sue? Maybe he strayed once. He strayed once?

[27:46]

I see he tried to give his students his eyebrows. Do you see Diana? What do you see, Ninan? What do you see, Justin? Hmm? Someone asking a question. You see someone asking a question? What are you going to say to them? They never were there.

[29:01]

What do you see, Cedar? Somebody who knows perfectly well that he's got eyebrows and he's trying to provoke his... What are you going to say to him? What are you going to say to this person that you see? Martha, what do you see? I kind of have this vision of like going back to seven Buddhas before Buddha. Yeah. And all the succession of ancestors. Yeah. Saying, check it out for yourself. And now that they're saying that, what do you have to say to them? Thanks. Thanks? You're welcome. It's kind of casual to say thank you. Can I add a little bit to my answer? Later. Melissa? What do you see?

[30:06]

What do you say? Why do you hide your face? Mary, what do you see? What do you see? I would say I see your eyebrows. You would say that you see my eyebrows? I would say that I see your eyebrows. What do you see and what do you say, Dana? Yes. Yes. What do you see? What do you say, Mark? Oh, yeah, there's two of them right there. I was thinking of the other one, Mark. I was thinking of the one way back. You want the short answer? Is that what you'd say? He's not picking it. I want the short answer.

[31:08]

No, I want the long answer. Pardon? Do you have something that you would say to Sui Yun, Linda? If you were there at that time, Gary, what would you have said? I would say, no concern for eyebrows, and I would offer him a mirror. Meg, on your birthday, how does it look to you?

[32:12]

Pokey and prodding. Thank you. Dave, what would you say to Sui Yen? Look at his eyebrows. Would you say anything to him? Probably not. If he begged you to say something, would you say anything? If I could think of something to say. Would you please say something? It seems very face-to-face, the question. I beg. Well, now I have a better idea of how to beg you.

[33:26]

Please, Dave, say something, please. Stuart. What do you have to say to Suyin at this moment? I don't think Suyin will ever fool me again, but I'm keeping him under close scrutiny. He feels honored to be under your surveillance. Jerome. Do you want to say something to the question that Thuyen is asking? I think I can see mine. Thank you. Carol?

[34:36]

Do you have something you'd like to say to Thuyen? I need you to see me. And Denise, would you like to say something to Suyin? I think I would make it. So let's see what you do. Oh. Do you wink very often? No. Wow. Saving the best for the Zen master, isn't it? Ane? Um, I see sweetheart not smiling, and I would smile back at him. Susan?

[35:43]

Great, uh, willingness to give up his life. And... I have mud in my eyes. You mean that's what you'd say to him? Mark, if you had an opportunity to meet him, what would you say to him? What would happen when I meet him? Well, he would ask you a question about his eyebrows, and what would you say? What would he ask? He would say, do I have my eyebrows left? I would say, You're beautiful just as you are. Please don't worry about your eyebrows. Svejko, what would you say if you were there when he said that to the group?

[37:03]

My autonomic nervous system just kicked in. Lise, what would you say to Suyin? I'd say you have eyebrows like bridges. Emmanuel. What do you have to say to Tzu-Yan? Give him a flower. Do you have a flower?

[38:15]

Do you have a flower? He didn't have a flower on you. What would you give him? Hit you on the forehead. What? Kiss him on the forehead. Sarah, how would you respond to Sweden? Do you do that often? Oh, it's a rare evening. Susan, how would you respond to this occasion? I would say yes, I see on the graph. Thank you. John? They're still growing. And Rin? Well, I thought of outside of the Buddha Hall at City Center, that scroll, the guy that did.

[39:17]

And I would say, ooh. You would say, ooh? Ooh. Lisa, how would you respond to this case? Jump up and shout. You would? How? Ha! Vernon? I would say choose your helmet. Thank you. Penelope.

[40:33]

I would say thank you for your openness. Arlene. I'd say, well, brethren. Brethren. Brethren, since you've been talking to Dharma all summer, you must have eyebrows. Tony. I regret them and handle my eyebrows and . Stuart with the hat.

[41:38]

Will. Now. Did I miss anybody? Hmm? Where? Lee. Lee? What do you, what would you, what would you say at Sui An when he asked you that question? After studying with him? No, I don't know. There's no touch. Nobody mind sound or I'm well. Who? Emanuel? I spoke. You did. That's what I thought. Okay. Now. Okay, so this is what you... Remember what you said? What did you say? It's... Remember what you said?

[43:05]

Do you remember what you said? Okay, so that's your answer, right? Okay, but you have a different answer if you want. But I'd like you to, you know, now at least one person wanted another try. John. At least one person. So anybody else wants another try? So John, what do you want to say? You want to try again here on this one? What's the question? The question is, OK, here's the case, right? Here's the case. Do I have any eyebrows left? That's what you have to say to him? Yes. Okay. Now, which of your answers? He said playful Zen master.

[44:07]

That's what he said to Thuyen, right? You feel more settled with that one than the previous one? No, I can both. You're going to want to hold on to both of them? I'm only attached to both. You're going to have both of them? They're going to be your thing now for this case? For right now. Okay. All right. Anybody else want to adjust their response? I want to know what Frida Kahlo says. Are you Frida Kahlo by any chance? I thought she won the losers. Martha, you want to? Oh, yeah, I think rather than saying thank you, I would like to just say, you know, to the succession of ancestors, how cool they are today. That's nice, huh?

[45:15]

That he thinks hard is cowardly. It's a good one, isn't it? I really, really want to say barrier. You really want to say barrier? Well, go ahead. Barrier. Okay. Barrier. Barrier. Barrier. She wants to say it? She said it. Anybody else want to say barrier? Barrier. Barrier. Just try it. It feels good. Barrier. [...] Do you say derrier? Emmanuel? I also want to say that Pete's part is cowardly. Oh, no. What do you mean, Klaus? It's boring. It's sweet. No, it isn't. Klaus, we came here to bore you.

[46:16]

It's okay to copy in Zen. Oh, okay. It's boring, but it's okay to copy. That's been used, too. All of them have been used now. No, one finger hasn't been used. She was just using it. I saw her. Meg used it too. Yes? Yes, I want to change to your eyebrows. Okay, Elenia. I want to add that it's amazing to me and absolutely amazing to me to play life is on the point of the pen with you. Absolutely amazing. Yes, Mimi. Instead of asking him or you why the Master may need approval, I think you had to say approval.

[47:19]

Hey, thanks. That's what he needed. That's all he needed. A little approval. Mr. Emptiness needs a little approval. That's what he came back for. I said it's so comforting to know that even Mr. Empty is speaking. I knew there was something wrong with this question. I don't know who his teacher was. Anybody else want to trade in their questions? Because you're going to live with this for a while. Yes? Mark? Do you need any mascara? That's not for eyebrows.

[48:39]

You need to go to school, cosmetology school. Or never dance at all. Sue, would you explain to him the right implement? We get the idea anyway. So, yes, Liz. You have two. My mother said I had one, and I look like the Italian side of the family. Wow. It's the other side. Irish Jim. Jim. Jim. So now here, anybody else want to, I'm asking you to like make, you know, if you want to adjust this, because you can use your answer now, you know, once you have your answer, you can use it.

[49:39]

You can take it with you, you know. So if you want to trade it in for another one, this isn't time to get another one now, and then you can have it, it'll be your little friend for a while. Okay. Okay. So anybody else wants to trade theirs in? And don't trade in, you know, be careful because you've got some good ones there. You're going to lose them. Just holding on to both of them is not so good, John. Let's just squash them together into one mass. So Justin and Greg, what happened? Did she attack someone? Got to be more gentle, guys. She's just a little girl. Justin? What's your intention in asking this? What was your last question? I mean, your last response? Last response, but they never were there. You want to change to this other one? I can work with them both.

[50:42]

Well, which one do you like best? What's your intention in asking this? Okay. Greg? You asked two different questions. Oh, I don't mean to... You have two answers. I'm not treating... Oh, really? What's my two questions? Your first question was, what do you see? Your second question was, what do you say? Oh, well... Wow. But then I also said, what do you see, what do you say? So, what I really want to know is, what do you say? That's what you, that's what, actually, you can keep what you see and what you say, but distinguish between them, okay? So, that's what you say, right? You're answering to what you said to him, right? Right. You're telling me what you'd say to him in response to that question, right?

[51:42]

Right. So what do you see? What do you say? You can distinguish between them. So both of them, I think, are pretty much set. Making up rules is like laying on a pinhead. Yeah. If anybody wants to alter what they see or what they say, let's have it. Yes. What are you going to alter? Both. Okay, what do you see? I see your eyebrows, but I... No, no, what do you see? Do you see he has eyebrows, or do you see... What do you see? Tell us what you see. I see his eyebrows. You see his eyebrows? Yeah. I don't see his eyelids. You don't see his eyelids? Okay. Eyebrows, but no eyelids? What are you going to say? Thank you. Okay. I squished mine. Okay. Yes? I'd like to know what the helmets are for.

[52:47]

Just a second. We have a little pause in the proceedings here. We're being asked now, which we were being asked for an explanation from Vernon. Do you think it would be a good idea for you to explain what the helmets are for, Vernon? Well, I normally get these things, some ideas of these things, by the San Rafael Bridge. Yeah. And so if he wants my response, he's got to follow along and race me there. Right. Okay. And it depends on what kind of a helmet he chooses, too. Yes. I mean, he gets a full-face helmet as he gets rid of those little beanie things. Right. Okay. Everybody, you understand now? Which nervous system is working now? Okay. Okay. Maya? Quick, get a razor. Quick, get a razor. So I answered to what do you see?

[54:12]

What did you see? Myself. Myself. And now you're going to say something? Pardon? Yes. Okay. You're going to say? Hot dog. Hot dog. You want to say something? You ask, what do I see? I say, I see red. Yes. And what do I have to say? I say, you are really cute. Really cute. Yeah. Now, in this case... Are you talking about Suyin or me? I don't know. No, no. I don't care. I just want you to be clear. Is this like transference from Suiyun to me?

[55:13]

Did somebody say something over there? What? Who else wants to, like, revise? Yes, Greg. I said what I saw, and now I'm going to say what I'd say. Okay. What lovely clouds over your sky are blue. What? Lovely clouds over your sky are blue. And what did you see before that? I saw eyebrows with no hair. Oh, yeah. Anybody else want to adjust their response? I still have to say the same thing. I see that I don't see... But when Linda said, I'd like to borrow your tweezers, there was a little opening, and somehow I'd like to incorporate it to my... You'd like to incorporate the opening into what you said before.

[56:43]

Yeah, I'd like to incorporate it to what she said. to help your response be what? Be how? Passionate. Okay. It's okay if I open this like this? It's fine. Oh, look, there's non-duality. So is everybody set, pretty much? Nobody else wants to alter their baby? Everybody's got what they need on this?

[57:52]

Good. Yeah, so this is good. So everybody remember now what you've got? So if I ask you sometime, you can tell me, right? Okay. Because I might want to ask you, you know, what you got there. You see, so this is a way we can, this is the nice thing about this case. It's so that it encourages me to ask this of you. And now you can use this. It's available to you for your use, like a little jewel, a little wish-fulfilling gem that you can use. To tune in to this case, to this moment, and as your response to this case, and then I can also, if you wanted to show it to me, I could also try to understand better what it was for you.

[59:12]

And then you have this, you have this, your own little personal or tangible manifestation of this koan. Your own. For yourself. Your own little, you know, vision and response to your vision of this story. And it can change, but it can also be the same forever. Okay. Okay. Now, these other responses are wonderful, and that's why some of you decided to just copy them. Fine. It's okay. That's what they did. And their responses were useful to them. Yours can be as useful to you as theirs were to them. And maybe yours could even be as useful to other people as theirs are to you and were to other people.

[60:16]

So in this way you can use this. So you could even write this down, too. You could write it down on a piece of paper. We can engrave it on a piece of stone and carry it on our back. It's impractical because you'd have a bunch of other ones too. We can use it for a gravestone. I think just put it on a rock and use it as your gravestone. That's a good idea. Sort of a dead word. Once it's held, it's kept written down. You can engrave it. Not if you're willing to die for it. So there. Just in case you're getting cold. Well, I got cold, so I put my hat on. I'm fine. You okay? Thank you. Okay. Okay. So let's see.

[61:36]

The paper, yeah. Ever heard of William Shakespeare? Yeah. So anyway, that's examples. He wrote some stuff down on paper and died for it. So if you write this down on paper, it might become a burden to you. And so maybe it's not a good idea to write down on paper unless it's helpful. Let's see, should it be written down on paper? I don't think it should be written down on paper to help you remember it. OK. I think it should be meaningful enough so you can remember it. I think the reason for writing down on paper might be, what are some of the reasons that might be worthwhile to write down on paper? We don't want it to be a burden.

[62:43]

We don't want it to be a burden. If you have Alzheimer's. Huh? If you have Alzheimer's. If you have Alzheimer's. So your body can learn it. Huh? So your body learns it as well. So your body can learn it, yeah? It could be a gift. It could be a gift. So you end up glancing at it from time to time. You could glance at it. You could see it as though someone else had said it. Huh. I can't write it. Pardon? I can't write it. Maybe you'd write it for me. You could write it, actually. Dip your eyebrows in ink. Or mascara. Fred? You can write it down so you can put it down. Anyway, I appreciate... Yes? Yes? No? Oh, I just said that we don't want to put it down.

[63:44]

Well, you know, you might not want to, but you could write it down so that you would be able to, just in case you wanted to. That would be one thing that Fred could use it for. Okay, so there it is. You've got it. Now you have it, as they say. So keep it well. All right? You got it. Your own little thing on this case. So there's this verse. And it's interesting, just a little, I think it's a little bit interesting that the commentator... The commentator said the same thing about this verse as the commentator in the Blue Cliff Record said about Sway Du's verse. Now, what the commentator in the Blue Cliff Record said about Sway Du's verse is that Sway Du, who is the poet of the Blue Cliff Record, took each one of these four people's statements and ran one thread through them

[64:58]

to make the verse. And that's what commentator says that Tien Tung did, too, of taking the four statements and running a thread to them, connecting them into one verse. Okay? It's kind of interesting. This is an example of not plagiarism, but anyway, copying. I think he openly copies sometimes. The commentator here openly copies the commentator in a Blue Cliff record on a number of occasions. This is one of the cases where he's kind of copying the thing. And also, it looks like that Tien Tung also kind of modeled his poem, in a sense, on Sui Du's poem. So the Blue Cliff record predates this collection by about 50 years. So the compiler of this collection, who chose the cases and wrote the verses, the great Zen master named Tiantong Hongzhi,

[66:08]

He looked at the Blue Cliff record and chose probably some of his cases from that collection. I suppose he looked at it. I don't really know that he did, but I think he did. I think I've seen other cases where you can see that he did see it. But the commentator even really did look at the comments of the Blue Cliff records. These are different lineages, but they're There, you know, the second lineage, the soto lineage, is drawing stuff from this yin-men lineage. Now, it's not Rinzai. It's the yin-men lineage. Blue Cliff Records is like in the yin-men lineage. I mean, Sui Du is in the yin-men lineage, and the commentators are Rinzai lineage. So you've got this mixture here. Okay, so here's the verse. The heart to be a thief, the guts to excel others.

[67:15]

Another translation, instead of saying the guts to excel others, it's the liver excelling all other livers. So not so much the guts to excel, but actually excellent guts. The heart of a thief, the heart to be a thief, an excellent liver, very good liver, goes with the heart to be a thief. What's the matter, Brianne? Huh? What's the matter? It reminded me of something. It reminded you of something? Well, what? You can't? You just can't? No, I can't. You can't. You just can't. I won't. You won't?

[68:26]

Yes, Stuart. Just a medical note. Yes. The liver is the general charge of planning and strategy. It also has the property of upwardly moving energy and faculty for ambition. Clearly, in all directions, responding to situations effectively. Okay? Baofu and Nianmen, their noses hang down and fool their lips. So one image here is, you know, the big, the pendulous nose that hangs down.

[69:28]

In Chinese, the Chinese folklore is that the pendulous nose is dignified. Chinese don't very often have noses like that. But a nose that hangs down like that is said to be dignified. So... Yes, yeah, there was. I don't know if it's the same kind of hanging down, though. And this is pendulous rather than, could it be down like a cow's nose is down, or an ox's nose is down in the grass? I think it's more that, in that case, rather than pendulous, it's just the nose is down towards the earth. So anyway, the nose is confronting the lips. The nose is actually reaching down to the lips, right? Yes?

[70:31]

I wanted to ask about how thief is being used here. I mean, I know there's other places where the image of a thief is used, but I don't understand how it's used. Okay, all right, fine. So what about these, who are the thieves? Are the Zen masters the thieves? It's good to be a thief. Is it karma? Is it karma? Well, are the Zen masters thieves? No. In this case, is a Zen master being confused of being a thief? Is Suiyin a thief? He's being accused of it, yeah. Huh? He's being accused of it. So why are Zen teachers called thieves? Why sometimes they're called thieves? What's the reason? Pardon? They steal delusion? Pardon? They take everything away from you. They take everything away. including delusion, or starting with delusion, and winding up with emptiness, winding up with enlightenment.

[71:36]

What did you say? Sorry, this is Janus. What? Starting with delusion, ending up with delusion. Ending with delusion, you're right. I think this also refers to the strategy of the thief who, in a crowd, might yell, thief, thief, in order to distract everybody's attention away from the top. Thank you. They excel others by using their words. By using? Their only words. They excel others by using others' words. Mm-hmm. They steal the initiative. Mm-hmm. Yes? The parenthetical, the word he translates, the phrase is, a thief's heart is cowardly. A more common way of translating that would probably be, a thief's heart is empty.

[72:40]

But that's what the thief's heart is cowardly. But in the verse here, there's nothing about cowardly. The verse is just saying the heart of a thief. And the liver, excellent liver. The Chinese phrase for bravery is not saying . It's really brave. Having a liver. Having a liver, yeah. If you say, this really got gall. It's not exactly gall. It's more bravery. He's got liver. I've got liver. So, their nose is hanging down to fool their lips. What's that about? Huh? Isn't it looking down their nose? Looking down their nose? What? Too nosy? Their noses are so long that they just want to bite them like a fish.

[73:59]

Their noses are so long? So what's Tien Tung saying about these great Zen masters? He's saying their noses are so long that they're touching their lips. What does that mean? They're great. They're just terrific. Because they've got such long noses, right? And such... Yearning lips. What if you fooled their lips then? It seems like something would be fooled then. Maybe it's not such a great thing to do. Yeah, maybe fooling their lips. Yeah, fooling their lips. But another translation would be to confront their lips. Tickling. Tickling, yeah, maybe. Tickling, fooling, confronting. What's that about? Is that just a way to say that they're great, like Liz said?

[75:00]

Sounds like they're fools. Their wisdom exceeds their desire. Their wisdom exceeds their... Desire. Their desire. Oh. What a situation. I'd never know if yin meant to make a mistake. Yeah, but the worst thing that yin men, I've ever heard of yin men doing was being young. Slow foot, too. Yeah, yin men, yin men, yin men, he's the tops. Suiyin and Chongqing, their eyebrows reflect in their eyes. What limit is there to inept Zen followers?

[76:08]

Insisting that the meaning and expression are equally stripped away. Is this ironic? That the inept Zen followers say that you should strip away meaning and expression? I wonder if they really mean that. You wonder if what? They really mean that? You mean the... Inept Zen followers? You mean you wonder if the poet's being ironic? Is that what you mean? Like I said? I'm not sure exactly what ironic means. Ironic means that what you say is sort of the opposite of what you mean. So he could be being ironic, in other words, saying that they're not inept to insist on stripping away meaning and expression.

[77:19]

But in a way, They did kind of strip away meaning and expression. Their responses kind of stripped away meaning and expression in a way. So are they inept to do that? Or did they really strip away meaning and expression? Well, by the way, the word meaning can also be translated as intention. E. Meaning or intention or will. So stripping away will and expression or meaning and expression. Okay. They bury themselves swallowing breath and voice. which we know would include, you know, they're going to swallow their breath and their voice.

[78:25]

They bury themselves, withholding their energy, swallowing their breath, swallowing their voice, swallowing their speech. Does that make sense? Hmm? Hmm? Does it? Yeah, they're kind of like You know, this is very brief, right? They're just going... You can hear something there, but it's very... It's kind of like... Get it out there and pull it back. Strip away that expression and intention. They bury themselves Sort of like a pre-buried Zen master.

[79:27]

Dragging down their ancestors, facing a wall carrying a board. Carrying a board is an expression for, you know, you carry a board on your shoulder like this, so you can't see that. You only can see on one side. They say a board-carrying person. That's a common Zen expression. Actually, it's not just Zen. You find it in Taoist writing and Confucian writing, too. Just carrying a board so you can't see to one side. Yes? Yes? I think there are proofs of what you call falling into emptiness or attaching to emptiness. You're insisting that meaning and expression are stripped away. There's nothing to be said. Is that the ineptness that's being put into it? Or I think. It could be, yes. Yeah. Yeah. But what's this dragging down their ancestors facing a wall, carrying a board?

[80:41]

What's that about? Isn't it unusual to carry a board when you're sitting in the zendo? To me, it's... No, it's not unusual. Oh. I'd probably be the biggest offender. Pardon? I might be the biggest offender. I wouldn't say you're the biggest. No. That's what I was talking about on Sunday. I'm the biggest offender. Oh, geez, I'm worse than anybody. I'm the top-of-the-line offender. No, but it is quite common for people in the Zen Do to be carrying a board. I've seen it myself. I saw Daniel do it once. Now we know you told on him for his one good, right?

[81:41]

Well, he brought the board in and everyone could see it. I don't remember. You don't remember? I'll remind you about it later. This is Gecko Villoba. Ginkgo biloba is something they make boards out of and also it's something you can take to remember the boards that you're carrying. I really, this last line here is kind of, I wish somebody would tell us what that's about someday. Tell us what that's about someday. Or right now. Could be today. We used to carry boards in the center. Yeah, all right. But since we put those away, now people carry boards in their head. That's very nice of you all.

[82:47]

They're helpful for sleeping. Is it like being a blockhead? Oh, what is a blockhead? Yeah. Maybe the worst is maintenance. No. Being a blockhead is fine. The problem is to be a blockhead on one side and not a blockhead on the other, and not realize you're a blockhead on one side. and think that you can see on both sides and not know that you're blocked on one side. That's the thing about the problem of the board. If you have blocked on both sides, then you're not one-sided. You're no-sided. The problem is that we're one-sided, and on the side that we're operating, we think it's the whole picture, right? That's more of a problem, not to know that we're ignorant.

[83:49]

If you know you've got a board there, then you're not so one-sided. But, you know, what's this line here for? That's the question. I'm not going to wait much longer. Pardon? But how does it apply to these Zen masters? Or does it? What's it in here for? Mark? The original question, they all respond to that question for one thing. Yeah. immediately trap themselves by responding to the question instead of coming just from whatever else there is. I mean, maybe they did come from whatever else there is. We don't know. But I think that's the question. And also, when they answered, did they really believe their answers? Do you think maybe they did? Maybe. Just for a second. Well, I'm not asking you to believe your answers. All I'm asking you to do is remember your answers. Not to believe in them or disbelieve in them, but remember them because they're your answers, and that's your story tonight.

[85:00]

Okay? And there's two people who have their hands raised, but it's now past 9 o'clock, so unless everybody... Does everybody want to deal with their questions? No. So they... Well, it's too bad. It's too bad. Does everybody want to have her say something? Yes. Well, it's not too bad. Congratulations. Speak. Do you say say or sing? Sing. How about say? You don't want to say, you want to sing? Okay. You already sang. Already sang. So you want to say? Happy birthday. Okay, so next week we can start K-72. But K-71, you've got this answer. So you can keep working on this. Pardon? The last line, you can work on that, too.

[86:02]

Tell me about it next week or tell me whenever you want. But I think we can go on to K-72. You can start looking at that if you want to. We're moving now. We're going to get to K-72 this year. I think there's two questions. Only one? One? We're going to have one more class. We usually don't. We'll have one more class, and I think that might be it. I'm sorry about the sashin. Anyway, there's a class next week, so please come, and we'll study case 72, all right? 2.29 again.

[86:54]

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