This is an appearance that will color out your practice, and out the true mind of faith, and out the true body of fame. You had asked me to remind you about the ancestors who have attained Buddha Way. Be compassionate with them. Thank you. Thank you. As I said before,

[01:29]

Some ancient teachers have suggested that the thought of enlightenment, the mind of awakening, arises, when it first arises in the mind of a living being, it arises through an intimate communion of stimulus and response sometimes, or request and response. This view, which we usually call the Zen ancestors, is also transmitted by the Zen ancestors. And I think this view or this teaching about mind rising in a living being through communion, I think this teaching is much more, it looks like it's much more visible in Chinese and other East Asian traditions than it was in India.

[02:58]

In some Indian Mahayana texts, it sounds like the teacher said, you should arouse this. Of course, the teacher is talking to the person, and the person is listening, so there is an interaction there. Kind of like, you should do this, which might lead to thinking that the person is going to give rise to this thought. The Lotus Sutra is kind of leading the way to this new of how the practice arises through intimate communication. For example, it says, right towards the beginning it says that only a Buddha together with Buddha can fairly understand

[04:02]

the true characteristic of all phenomena. So, a person does not understand the Dharma. Together with Buddhas understand the Dharma. However, persons can practice in such a way that they're practicing like a Buddha together with somebody else who's practicing as a Buddha. It's not the person understanding, it's the conversation between the person and another person, or between the person and Buddhist. That conversation is what understands. This teaching, again, is not necessarily so clear in India, but it also can be seen in the Avatamsaka Sutra, where they talk about the mutual inclusion of principle and phenomena.

[05:19]

This reciprocal relationship between particular things and principles, like sameness, that interaction between those two is taught in the Ava Tamsaka Sutra. Teaching of reciprocal mutual inclusion. But again, I feel like, yeah, and then in China, both in China, that principle, I think, got more recognition than maybe it did in India. And one other thing which I'd like to say this morning is that the way it was recognized by some schools who study the Flower Adornment Scripture, the Awa Tamsaka Scripture.

[06:27]

Some schools of Buddhist practitioners studied that and they wanted to teach that teaching. And the way they taught was what you might call exegetical. They led people out of or into the sutra by using doctrinal terminology. They used the terminology of the sutras. They used terminology that dictators had made in India. The Chinese Buddhists did that. In these two big schools I would like to mention, one school named after the sutra, the Hua Yin Tsung, the Avatamsaka school, and the other school is the Tientai school, which honors that sutra and teaches that sutra, but even more honors the Lotus Sutra.

[07:33]

So the Abhatamsaka Sutra, very influential. Two of the main schools in Chinese Buddhism, the Chantai and the Huayuan. But again, the way they dealt with the teaching in the sutra was sort of in terms of the language of the sutra and the language of the interpreters of the sutras. One example of that was not of Chinese, but of Western experiences. Many of us came to Zen Center and the first scripture we ran into was, or that ran into us, was the Heart Sutra. We just chanted it, and we chanted it in Japanese originally. And we had... We had a beautiful sutra card that had Chinese characters, Japanese pronunciation of the characters, and a literal English translation.

[08:38]

So we chanted kanjis, aibos, so we chanted the Chinese pronunciation of those characters. But when we were chanting them, we could see the characters, and we could see the English translation. It was a nice study for us. Beautiful sutra card. And we chanted the Heart Citrus three times. I think one slow, one meeting, and one fast. And we kind of knew what it was about because there was a literal translation. And then it came to our attention, or actually a book was published by a scholar on perfect wisdom scriptures. Edward Kansa, he wrote a commentary on Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra. He also translated many big Mahayana Prajnaparamita Sutras. And in the translation of the Heart Sutra together with his commentary, he went through the Sanskrit words and told us what they meant and told us, he explained what the skandhas are, which are in the sutra, the five skandhas.

[09:58]

We say five aggregates. He told us what the five aggregates were, and then there's twelve, what do they call, twelve ayatanas, twelve doors of arrival, and then eighteen elements of consciousness. And it doesn't say eighteen elements of consciousness, but it goes through them. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind. That's six of them. And then no eye consciousness, no ear consciousness, no nose consciousness, no my consciousness. And no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no ear, no eyes, no eyes, no colors. It goes through those 18. And again, we found out that this is a technical analysis of Indian Buddhists coming from the Buddhist teaching, which now the Mahayana has a new understanding of this analysis.

[11:05]

But the commentary explained to us what the analysis was about, but in terms of the language of the sutra and the language of a scholarly interpreter. And that's a very important part of Buddhism in India, China, Japan, Korea, is that some people wanted to teach people what the wisdom that's in the sutras, or the wisdom of the sutras, not really in the sutras, the wisdom of the sutras, to teach people, but to teach them in terms of the doctrinal terminology, which I think we can understand that way. We can have understanding that way in the interaction with the texts. But the Zen school kind of has a different way of dealing with these sutras. The Zen school wants to illuminate the teachings of these sutras and transmit them to people, but quite a different way of doing it.

[12:17]

One thing I would say about it is that I feel that because of the strong, deep emphasis or appreciation of silence, the sutra wants to deal with the words of the sutra in a different way. It wants to talk from silence, not by so much using technical terminology to explain what the sutra is saying. The silence that's so strongly upheld in the Zen tradition and the stillness kind of drew the Zen practitioners, the Zen folks, the Zen teachers, kind of pulled them into poetry, to use poetry to express And not just poetry and verses, but concrete poetry.

[13:30]

Some people's poetry is quite doctrinal. So there's verses in the doctrinal schools too. But this is verses that use everyday images or images from nature to convey to convey the teaching. But it doesn't necessarily sound anything like the sutra. One thing that just popped in my mind was one of our great ancestors named Tozan Ryōkai, the one who wrote the Precious Mere Samadhi, When he was just a little kid, he was already studying Buddhism with a teacher, and they were chanting the Heart Sutra in Chinese.

[14:34]

And as they were chanting, when they got to the part of the Heart Sutra... no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, and so on, he said to the teacher, well, I have eyes, I have ears, I have nose, why does the heart say there isn't any? And the teacher realized that he had the Zen master on his hands, so he sent him to, you know, sort of upstairs to a more mature teacher. You can't hear me? Well, I'll try to talk louder. And one of the consequences of teaching the Dharma not in natura,

[15:41]

not in the terms of usual doctrinal terminology, is that when people hear such teachings, they kind of go, is that Buddhism? It's a new way. I'm not saying that that didn't happen in other parts of the world, but sometimes when you do something new in a tradition, people sometimes think that it's not the tradition. And it's true, something new could also not be the tradition. But some people look at Zen and they say, that's lovely, but I don't know if it's Buddhism. But also some East Asian Buddhists look at Tibetan Buddhism and they say, is that Buddhism? Especially like... Is that Buddhism? I think is that Buddhism is more respectful than that is not Buddhism.

[16:51]

That is not the Buddha way. And in some Zen stories, again, a story that this young monk heard about a story of somebody who went to talk to an important teacher. And that teacher had this teaching of, inanimate objects teach the Dharma. And that, maybe you don't, maybe you think, I hadn't heard that in any of the sutras. But kind of like there was this conversation and a monk asked this national teacher, Jung, he said, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhists? And he said, rocks, walls, tiles, and pebbles.

[17:58]

And the monk said, well, in brackets, if that's the mind of the ancient Buddha, is it teaching the Dharma? And the national teacher says, it constantly and incandescently teaches the Dharma. And it's really interesting. And... Well, I'll go on further. Then the monk says, why can't I hear it? Why can't I hear the table and the rock? And the teacher says, although you don't hear it, don't hinder that which does hear it. I see you, but I'd like to talk a little bit more before questions start, please. So anyway, the story goes on, and maybe I'll get into it later in more detail, but right now I just want to make the point that this monk is asking him a question, and in the conversation a teaching comes up that this monk never heard of.

[19:16]

And I think after all the discussion, the monk says, well, in what sutra is this teaching? about inanimate objects teaching the Dharma. And the teacher kind of jokes and says, well, I wouldn't be very dignified if I was giving teachings that aren't in the sutras. And then he... of this teaching in the sutras. He knew one. But he wasn't quoting a sutra when he answered the question. He probably was talking to the monk in a courtyard of a temple, and the monk asked him, and he just happened to see this wall. And he said, well, you know, that wall and the tiles on top of the wall, that's the mind of the ancient Buddha. My ancient Buddha isn't my mind, isn't your mind, it's the mind of walls. So you don't hear it, don't hinder that which does.

[20:23]

And then that story goes on, and Dung Shan brought that story up to another important teacher, Netta Kway Shan. He brought up to Guishan the story. And Guishan said, can you recite the story? So the young monk's asking his big teacher, Guishan, what's this story about? And the teacher says, well, do you know the story? Can you recite it for me? And so, he does know the story. And he recites it. Just like it's usually been transmitted among the Zen people. And then, after he finished the story, Guishan raised his whisk and said, do you understand? So again, that conversation is not in the sutras, you know, raising a whisk to demonstrate that teaching.

[21:37]

And the monk doesn't quite get it, even though he's quite amazing already in his career. He's heading on the way to become the person he became. And he kind of says, can you tell me more? And Guishan said, one of my parents is not going to explain it to you. So he refers him to somebody else. He actually showed him the teachings. But he's not going to get into doctrinal interpretations of this teaching which was not a doctrinal terminology. The recorder is not using doctrinal terminology to explain the Dharma to you. But these days, somebody might raise a recorder if you ask, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhists? It's a recorder. Or not even say it. Just go. Do you understand?

[22:41]

And some of you might say no. And you say, could you explain more? The teacher says, no. This mouth is not going to be used. I just showed you. Not even saying that. But I will refer you to somebody else. You can start from scratch with that person. So he does, and he travels quite a ways, and he meets Yonyan, who will become his master. And Yonyan is the one who is sweeping the ground. So again, in the sutra we don't have that. But for us, that story, which is not using doctrinal terminology, it's using brooms, and the earth, and human conversation, That's more the Zen style, which again may not look like Buddhism. There's not too many sutras you have. A monk would walk by and say, what are you doing? They did sweep the ground and stuff, but Zen is mostly that stuff.

[23:51]

The early traditional Zen is new and it's different. And it's not this. It is intellectual, but it's using the intellect to express silence and stillness. So how does Guishan express silence and stillness? He raises the whisk. And that's a doctrinal interpretation of this risk. He's not getting it. Then he goes and meets Yunyan and tells him what happened with Guishan. Maybe he told the story, too. He recounted what happened. So maybe he told Yunyan the story and what happened with Guishan. And Yunyan... raised his whisk. But this time he kind of heard, this time he heard, this time the young monk heard the Dharma.

[24:59]

A little poem, which we have in our, he made a verse to express the silence which he realized. And then he, again he said, what sutra is this? This whisk, where is it? And yin-yang actually can give them a sutra where it doesn't say, wists are being raised and brooms are being swept, but it says, grasses, trees, you know, lands and mountains teach the Dharma, something like that. It's just concrete images of the teaching of the Dharma, poetic. just like raising a whisk. So this is a different way of teaching, which is in the sutras. That's sort of the origin of the Zen style. And Chinese people like that better than the wonderful, the amazing, brilliant doctrinal interpretation of these Buddhist schools. I have studied for many years, and I really appreciate it.

[26:03]

But the Zen school gave something new and more, and really quite, people could get really direct access to something that they couldn't understand. So rather than think that they don't understand because it's abstruse and technical, they didn't think that. They didn't think that raising a whisker, that's very abstruse. It's very concrete, and they don't get that either. But you could get it through this... People did get it through this doctrinal interpretation. They did. And most of Buddhism was doing that. The Zen school tried something different. And one of the first people who tried something different was our ancestor, Tozan. great-grandfather, Shurto, or Sakito Gisan.

[27:06]

And he was reading a commentary on Prajnaparamita texts. He was reading a commentary on Indian Buddhism texts written by one of the first Chinese people to give these teachings. Sang-jao. So he was reading these interpretations of the teachings through technical, critical, doctrinal terminology. And he had a great awakening reading that. There was no, you know, I would say there was intimate communion, but there was no Zen teacher around except for him. But there was the Buddha Dharma there interacting with him. As he brought his energy to the text, the text gave its energy to him.

[28:10]

The meaning is not in the word, but it responds to the inquiring impulse. If you bring your energy to the text, And they squirt blood in your eye. It can happen. But the Zen school is not so much that way. However, this is one of the Zen founders who was studying traditional Mahayana sutra commentaries and had a great awakening. But, or and, he did not teach by making commentaries on the Perfect Wisdom scriptures, even though he awoke through reading commentaries on the Perfect Wisdom scriptures. He teach, he touch, the harmony of difference and equality. Which takes you back to the sutra, because the Avatamsaka Sutra is teaching the harmony of difference and equality.

[29:15]

That's one of the main teachings, or maybe the main teachings of the Great Sutra, is that all the different phenomena are in harmony with the principle of all phenomena. That you can't have one without the other. They interpenetrate each other. And you can discover the principle by studying phenomena. And if you study principles, you can discover that phenomena are right there. They can't be anyplace else. This is the Great Sutra. which is so much at the heart of the Zen school. But the way the Zen teacher taught it, Sekito, the mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from east to west, you know. He taught, right in light there's darkness, right in darkness, light.

[30:18]

It probably isn't the sutras, but nobody knew that it wasn't a sutra. He was using images, metaphors, for this interaction between phenomena, principle. And he describes how it works, using... ministers serve their Lord, children obey their parents. He's using that stuff to convey this teaching. And it's different. So he's kind of the founder of trying to express the silence of the world in words in a way that wasn't taking people away from the silence. Sekito, then Yaoshan, then Yunyan, then Dungshan. And Dungsan also wrote this thing called The Precious Truth, which is also about the same teaching in the sutra.

[31:24]

Dungsan's teaching, the Avatamsaka Sutra, but not by using that terminology of the Avatamsaka Sutra. He's in this new way of dealing with the great scripture. along with being preceded by people who did such a wonderful job of teaching the sutra through language of a certain type. So he was going to use language, but in a different way. Not just to make the point, hey, we're doing something different here, but They were doing a different way of understanding this ancient teaching. Like the medicinal herb. The five tastes of the medicinal herb.

[32:28]

Like a diamond thunderbolt. He uses these kinds of things to give this teaching. And one other thing which I find quite interesting is that school is doctrinal school, doctrinal school. Zen is not a doctrinal school. It's a school of silence and stillness. In the doctrinal school, the Avatamsaka school, they had a school of major teachers. major ancestors, and they had, I believe, five, which spanned quite a long time. They weren't just immediate successors, but over a period of a couple hundred years, the school was very influential in all of China, conveying by various ways the teaching of the sutra, the interfusion of all phenomena with each other and with principle.

[33:36]

And the fifth ancestor of this school was a Zen master. So this school is going along and being very influential, great teachers, and then we get another great teacher who just happens to be in the Zen lineage. The Zen lineage overlapping literally with this doctrinal school. So this person, his name is Sung Mi, he's both a Zen teacher and he's a doctrinal scholar. And he's called the ancestors. But I appreciate the comment that really the sixth ancestor in the school of the Avatamsaka Sutra is our ancestor, Tozan Ryokai. The person who wrote the Precious Mirror Samadhi is the inheritor and the transmitter of the Avatamsaka lineage, but in a new way.

[34:48]

And Sungmi wasn't his teacher. But yet he inherited these teachings just like you are inheriting them. And these teachings was the precious mirror samadhi. So it's a really different approach to trying to help people understand these profound Mahayana teachings to use ordinary concrete images and playing them out in ways that people can actually understand these teachings. So, look at the Zen schools. I'm not a scholar, but I look at the Zen school and I see that this using poetry to express Dharma in a way that your speech and your gestures are not... I should put it positively, do convey silence and stillness.

[36:04]

That when you speak, silence is there, and in silence you're speaking. That approach is really different. Another approach, another view of this going on here is that the, what do you call it, the doctrinal people, they were very successful. They had a lot of patronage from aristocrats and emperors. They had wonderful monasteries. And the Zen people kind of wanted to get some support, some recognition. So they would always be that great in the scholarship realm, so they tried another approach.

[37:07]

And that they were doing something new to distinguish themselves from the other groups so that they could get independent support. So again, in the Zen school in China, Bodhidharma, talking about the four foundations of mindfulness, or even the five aggregates, or even the four noble truths. What does he say? Vast emptiness. No hope. Nobody knows who I am. And what does he do? He goes and sits in silence. And he brings out the teaching in silence. Now, some people, again, say the Zen people did that, these teachings, but they didn't bring them up because they wanted to appear different. So they weren't in competition, or another way to put it, so they weren't a lesser version of the traditions.

[38:11]

they never could stand up compared to the scholars. And they didn't try. Maybe they did try and realized they were not going to succeed. So they tried another approach. And it turns out this other approach became basically the approach of Chinese Buddhism. And the monasteries all became Zen monasteries. Because this approach, emphasizing silence through poetry and concrete imagery, it was more Chinese than the wonderful, abstruse, arcane, Indian, philosophical on the citrus. So we... There's this term, a special transmission outside the scriptures to describe Zen.

[39:21]

And it's not really outside or inside. It's actually a special transmission of the scriptures. But not using the scriptures to transmit the scriptures, which is an unusual and special way to transmit the scriptures, is do it without mentioning them. That had not been done before as much. Somewhat, but this became the hallmark. And some of the imagery of the poetry became hallmarks of Zen, too. Now I'd like to relate to what Catherine reminded me of. She asked me about the chant we do at the beginning, where it says, well, basically it says, I vow to hear the true Dharma, and then blah, blah, blah. And when I meet it, when we meet it, we'll be able to maintain it.

[40:29]

And when we maintain it, then we, together with the great earth and all living beings, will attain the Buddha way. Remember that part? The true Dharma. And give up distracting activities. We can maintain it. Maintain it. And then everybody gets to enjoy the realization of the Dharma. And then it says, although, but you can also say however, our karmic consequences have greatly accumulated and become an obstacle to the practice. In other words, because of our karma we don't set aside the distractions from taking care of the Dharma. So then it says, be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects." And I felt that too, and some other people felt.

[41:33]

Are they going to do it for us? Are they going to be compassionate to us and they're going to free us from karmic effects? So it does sound like that. But I almost think of changing the translation of, may all Buddhas extend great compassion and free us from karmic effects by teaching and practicing with us. So we do need the Buddhists to give us the Dharma, and they have, and they are, but they don't free us from karma. And the Dharma doesn't free us from karma. But also we don't free ourselves from karma. We free ourselves from karma by bringing the energy to the teaching. And when we bring the energy, we get met. The meaning is not in these scriptures.

[42:37]

The meaning is not in the Buddhas. It's not in the Bodhisattvas. However, the meaning does come forth when we go to meet the Buddhas, when we go to meet the bodhisattvas, when we meet the sutras, and we give our heart to them. The meaning comes. The sutra's there, we're here, and we can try to get the meaning out of the sutras. That's not going to work. It's not in there. It's not over here. But by intimately interacting with the scriptures, meaning, encouragement, enthusiasm, confidence will grow. I often use the example of both the Lotus and the Abhidharma material, which is... Abhidharma, the Buddhism has three baskets.

[43:48]

Sutra basket, commentary basket, and then the ethical discipline basket. Sutras, and Vinaya. So the scholastic treatment of the teaching is the Abhidharma. In the 1969 practice period I read this book about Abhidharma. Then I closed the book on Abhidharma. I wasn't interested. Maybe I was trying to get the meaning out of the book. I don't know, but anyway, meaning was not coming. And then that Guruji was supposed to come to Tassajara and teach the Lotus Sutra, so I was also reading the Lotus Sutra. But like this year, the road was washed out.

[44:50]

Actually, first of all, he was sick, so he didn't come to the beginning of the practice period. Before the road got washed out, he did not come because And when he was feeling well, he came down. But the road was washed out, so he couldn't come in. So we never got his teaching on the Lotus Siksha. Well, we did. We got some of the teaching from the Lotus Siksha before the road washed out. And again, the way they got the teaching was, one way they got it, which I think is apropos of what I'm saying is, he opened the Lotus Sutra and read the copyright dates and the publisher. He wasn't trying to get the meaning of the Lotus Sutra out of the copyright dates. I think he was trying to show people that's not the approach.

[45:53]

But you should be willing to spend your life studying copyright dates. And if you give yourself to publishers' information, the meaning will come. And there was quite a bit of discussion in his house about what about reading comic books and so on. Well, if you read comic books with the energy of meeting intimately with a friend, with a sutra, if you read comic books with that same thing, the dharma will come out in that devotion between you, in that conversation between you and the comic book. The dharma is not in the comic book. Everybody knows that. So since it's not in there, forget it. It's in the Lotus Sutra, so I'm going to go study the Lotus Sutra. It's not in the Lotus Sutra either. It's not in anything. It's not in that, it's not in that, it's not in that, and it's not in that.

[46:57]

Where is it? Location. It comes forth in your wholehearted engagement with anything. including comic books and the Lotus Sutra. So Suzuki Roshi was going to interact with the Lotus Sutra, and he did, and that interaction... Well, like I just told you, that interaction was what the copyright did. And when you heard that, something happened for you. That wasn't a doctrinal terminology. That was copyright information. So he didn't... And I think it was also in that practice period, someone asked him, someone said to him, when you teach in the city center, your talks are so interesting, but your talks in the practice period, I can't stay awake.

[48:04]

And he said, yeah, in the city hall, I entertain them, and they stay awake. At Tassajara, I say how it is, and everybody goes to sleep. Yeah, so I feel like you have... One more thing I want to say is that I felt encouraged by Suzuki Roshi and Edward Konza to study that academic philosophical treatment in the Abhidharma, and I did, and I quit. And I felt also that I should study the Lotus Sutra because Suzuki Roshi was coming. and I quit. I found both the Lotus Sutra and the Abhidharma dead. I was trying to get meaning out of them and I couldn't get any.

[49:11]

Because there isn't any meaning. But that doesn't mean they're meaningless. It's just there's no meaning in them. They're not meaningless. They're opportunities to realize the meaning of life. But the meaning isn't in them. Anyway, now you've heard it. I quit the Abhidharma and I quit the Lotus Sutra. That's not the end of the story. That was 53 years ago that I quit. And after I quit, guess what I did? Hmm? I can't hear you. What did I do? Read them again. I opened the Abhidharma again and I closed it. I opened the Lotus Sutra again and I closed it. And then I opened the Abhidharma again and I closed it. And I opened the Lotus Sutra again and I closed it.

[50:16]

And then I opened the Lotus Sutra and the lights went on. I didn't read a lot. I read a little bit, but my devotion, not my, the devotion to going back again and again and again. The Lotus Sutra said, good morning, young monk. And the Abhidharma, which is so, it squirted blood in my eye. But I had to go back again and again. The devotion was responded to. No devotion is also responded to. You don't get anything. Suffering. But that is the meaning of life. The meaning of life comes when you bring yourself completely to anything. And Zen is emphasizing that. And we also chant sutras. And we chant commentaries on the sutras which don't sound like sutras.

[51:23]

So, in the early days of Zen Center, Sugarshi did not go through and teach them by using doctrinal terminology. He did not do that. But in the summer before his last summer, he studied Sandokai. to actually go through it. And he got into terminology and so on too. So in my life, although the Zen school did not encourage, I didn't feel encouraged to do these studies of sutras and so on, but now in this phase of history, as we Zen people are exposed to other histories of Buddhism besides Zen, now we're starting to, I'm starting to, and you're starting to, study the Lotus Sutra, study the Chinese schools about the Abhatamsaka Sutra.

[52:46]

We're learning about these things, which in Japan, very few Zen priests ever look at the Abhatamsaka Sutra, or even the Lotus Sutra. ...things to take care of. But in the West, we also have other things to take care of. But we are, some of us, are getting into the teachings and the study which were not so common in Zen in the past. I went to a seminar one time And one of the scholars at the seminar said, what's a Zen priest doing at a seminar on Yogacara Buddhism? What's a Zen priest doing, another one, what's a Zen priest doing studying Abhidharma? Usually Zen priests in Japan do not study Abhidharma. But I did because Sukhoreshi encouraged it. So we're in a different relationship. But it's still good to understand that our particular school was not studying five skandhas and the twelve ayatamas and the eighteen dhatus and the twelve-fold chain of causation.

[53:56]

You don't find that in almost any Zen books. Another example is case number six, I believe, of the Book of Serenity. So a monk comes to Matsu, kind of like Shinto or Sekito is kind of like, they're both the big, two big teachers in China. They lived at the same time. They knew about each other and they both were trying something new. And Matsu was there in his monkhood and a monk came to him and said, beyond the four alternatives and the hundred negations, what's the essence of Buddhadharma? So here's this monk bringing forth this doctrinal terminology.

[54:58]

So four of these are called the Tetralemma, which Nagarjuna presented, Nagarjuna did do this terminological, just this amazing thing of working with terminology and blowing up the history of Buddhism and creating this new through the way he dealt with the terminology. He didn't use the terminology to explain it. He used the terminology to show people that the terminology was empty. And he had this very famous. So the monk comes to the Zen teacher and says, what about beyond these four? Yes, that's Zen. And beyond the 100 negations, what's the essence? And Mansoor doesn't get into explaining what it is. He says, I'm really tired.

[55:59]

Would you please go see Brother Hai by John Waihai? Would you go see him? He'll explain it to you. And he goes to see Brother Hai and Brother Hai says, I'm sorry I have a headache. Go talk to Brother Tsong. And Hai, by the way, means ocean. and Tsang means storehouse of the sutras so so he says he goes to his brother Tsang and brother Tsang says when it comes to this I just don't know what to say so then he goes back to Master Ma and he tells what happened and Master Ma says I think he says the ocean's head is white the storehouse head is black This is a poetic approach of the Zen school.

[57:04]

Isn't it lovely? And then case eight of the Book of Serenity. Yaoshan, the student of the person who wrote Emerging Harmony of Difference Union, his student, Yaoshan, Medicine Mountain, So he's, what's he doing? He's, well, he's sitting Zazen, and he's also, what's he doing? Tea? What'd you say? Tea? Was he having tea? I don't know, I'm mixing things up here. He wasn't doing anything. There's that too, but along with that is, what is he doing?

[58:07]

Oh, yeah, well, he wasn't doing anything, yeah. He's referring to a story about him not doing anything. But I think after that story, after he wasn't doing anything... He wasn't giving any talks. Then he was the abbot of the monastery and he wasn't giving any talks. So he's the abbot, he's not doing anything. This is a problem for some people. So the director of the monastery comes. Dear teacher, you're not doing anything. We're waiting for you to do something. Would you please come and give us a talk? And he says, okay. So he goes into the hall. I think he goes up and gets on his seat. And then he gets down and leaves. And then the director goes after him and says, Teacher, you said you'd give a talk. No, you didn't say, I asked you to give a talk, but you just got on the seat and got down.

[59:14]

You didn't give a talk. And Yao Shun said, The sutra masters teach the sutras. The commentary masters write commentaries. Please give this old monk a break. Now, did he know about the sutras and the commentaries? I don't know. Maybe he said, well, he doesn't talk about it because he doesn't know anything. He doesn't do anything, he doesn't know anything. But he's the ancestor we've got. And he's a disciple of the one who wrote, the one who did do something. Shurto did do something. He wrote the Sandokai. He wrote the Harmony of Difference and Unity. He did study. He was a hardworking person. He did a lot. But his disciple, just give me a break.

[60:17]

And then his disciple is Yun Yan, and Yun Yan's disciple is somebody who also did something, who wrote The Precious Mirror Samad. And before I even heard about Sandokai, before we started at Zen Center, we didn't start chanting at Zen Center until until this visiting teacher came and we chanted it in Japanese, Sandokai. But we didn't know anything about it before that. And one day, sometimes there was a zendo at Sokoji Temple in Japantown. Sokoji Temple was on Bush Street, Bush and Laguna. Now Sokoji is on Sutter and Laguna. So anyway, there he was, giving a talk, not in a zendo, but down in a big room, which originally was the main room of the synagogue.

[61:26]

So it had pews, and in front of the pews there was a lot of room to sit. So he gave the talk standing up, and he had a little blackboard or a writing board, and he was talking about some culture. And, you know... Shizuka actually could talk for quite a while sometimes. He really liked to talk to us. So in this particular talk, I think it went for about an hour and a half. And I was sitting in full lotus. And finally I asked a question. Other people ask questions too, but I asked a question and I said, Is the suffering of a Zen master and the suffering of a Zen student the same or different? And he said, the same. So I didn't know we were talking about Sandokai. Discussing it. I'm sitting on the floor. He's standing up. I'm in a lot of pain.

[62:26]

I don't know what's going on with him. But anyway, he's not sitting cross-legged. And yet, even though we're different, his suffering was the same. And I was very happy to hear that his suffering was the same as mine. I was still suffering. It didn't take the suffering away, but I was very happy that his suffering was the same as mine. And I think that continued to be the case for the rest of the time I knew him. He was suffering. He's a suffering of love. Man in his 60s, I'm a suffering man in his 20s. I was having a hard time. He didn't look like he was, even though he was sick. But our suffering was an enactment of the harmony of difference and equality.

[63:32]

We were studying the Sandokai together. And one day, at the city center, he said to me that he wanted to give me a talk, a Dharma talk. He said, I want to tell you some things which I can't say in the Buddha Hall. I want to tell you some things about the Sandokai. Of course, I was very happy that he was going to give me this private tutorial. And so we went up to his doksan room. We both sat cross-legged, facing each other. And he gave me this talk about the harmony of differences in English. It was a great opportunity for me. How could I be so fortunate? that he's giving me this special teaching on the harmony of difference and equality.

[64:36]

Can you hear me okay? I always had a really hard time staying awake for this great opportunity. I don't know... I was so... I was sleepy. And I don't know how sleepy I was. I don't know if I was so sleepy that I completely conked out. to know if I did conk out completely. I don't know if I did. I don't know if I sort of fell over. But it went on for quite a while. And almost the whole time I was having a really hard time staying awake. But I could also think, this is just amazing that here I am being such a... He's giving me this gift and I'm asleep kind of going, what's going on? And he's talking about what? The harmony of difference and equality. The harmony of... No matter what's going on, it's the same.

[65:44]

And being asleep or being awake is kind of different. I wasn't awake. I didn't feel awake. I wasn't alert. And it seemed really different from the way I was. And I kind of thought to be awake and listen to what he's teaching me. And I don't remember anything he said. But I do remember he didn't criticize me or tell me to get out of the room. And I don't know what led him to ever stop talking to me. One could go into great detail about what was going on there, and I don't really know anything. I mean, I do know. I do know I was sleepy, he was being very kind to me, and I was embarrassed, and kind of, yeah, receiving his gift with the sleepy body and mind. And this is not in the sutras, what I'm telling you.

[66:53]

This is the Zen style. Teacher gives you a great opportunity and you can't stay awake. There may be another style which is teacher gives you a great opportunity and you're like totally awake. That's okay too. And one more just small detail is that the chant we do I take refuge in Dharma and it says, entering deeply into the merciful ocean of Buddha's way. Well, that sounds good, doesn't it? Enter deeply into the merciful ocean of Buddha's way. Doesn't it? Well, I think so too. However, the original of this translation says, I take refuge in Dharma. May all beings enter the... Wisdom like the ocean.

[68:09]

So in our translation, which is hardly a translation, but it is a translation, Dharma is pretty literal. And we say before all beings, but another translation would be together with all beings, or male beings. That's kind of more okay. But our next part of it is kind of a free translation, entering deeply the merciful ocean. But the original says, entering deeply the sutras, which have wisdom like the sea, which is a merciful ocean. But again, there's a tendency in Zen to kind of avoid the sutras. But entering them is different from trying to get something from them. Dive into the sutras, yes. If we give ourselves to these sutras, which we do, which we do, we give our life to these sutras every day.

[69:18]

We donate our life to the sutras. Kanji zaibo. Avalokiteshvara. We live, we breathe, we chant these sutras. But we don't try to get anything from the sutras. Do we? Maybe we did in the past, but That was not a good way. The way to receive and discover the meaning of the sutras is by giving ourselves to them. Okay. Thank you so much. Now, is there anything anybody wants to bring up? Did you want to bring something up, Nathan? I asked about, you know, to remain in sort of the Dharma, Zen school or not, for personal inspiration.

[70:34]

And now you're talking about the evolution of the Dharma itself, changes in the Dharma itself. And it's hard to imagine how that happens without some teacher having their own personal inspiration to get this turning of the wheel. Is that so? And why is that trustworthy? Why should they have the audacity to do that? Maybe because of the realization. So like in the case of Sekito, he wrote this Harmony of Difference and Equality, but he wrote it after he had a real experience of what the commentaries on the Perfect Wisdom Sutras are trying to tell us. So he did have an experience, and that experience led him to do something different. Some people might read the sutras and experience the meaning of the sutras, and they might write another sutra.

[71:38]

A lot of this is done by people who had deep experience of other sutras. It's an interesting question because some people in modern times, for example, who have a near-death experience or who think so, I see something that's more real than real. It's so trustworthy. But then if you ask any of your different people, it was different things. Some of them, it was even kind of by different religious dogmas. There was Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad or something. And they would not agree with each other at all in the square. It was very impactful and more real than real and all of that. It's hard to know when to trust that. Yeah, maybe so. So, using ayahuasca is not a traditional thing in our lineage. So, if people... Yeah, anyways.

[72:45]

So, we have these things, and if we are really devoted to them, because we're devoted to them, we will have experience, we will have confidence. Our confidence with these teachings, we will open to the communion with these teachings, also called these Buddhas. And in that relationship, this thought of enlightenment will arise in us. And when the thought of enlightenment arises in us, we will be born again in the family of Buddhas. And when we're born again in the family of Buddhas, we will no longer try to get anything or get rid of anything. And then, because of our devotion and our intimate communion and the awakening mind coming and becoming free of trying to get anything or get rid of anything,

[73:50]

In that context, we might feel moved to offer something that's never been seen before. And what are we offering to what we're really devoted to? So because we're devoted to this beautiful tradition, we feel called to prune it. like people who love a tree, those are the people who should be pruning it. You shouldn't go prune trees if you don't love them. And those who are devoted to the tradition, those are the people who really, not all the time, but when the time is right, we should change it. For example, this comes to mind, we're chanting the name of women teachers. That's a change. But we didn't change that to get rid of Buddhism. We changed it because we felt called to invigorate Buddhism by making that change.

[74:51]

And there's other changes we've made too. We chant in English. We used to chant in Japanese. But we changed that. So I think that when we have an experience of this particular tradition, we are, for example, if we don't know what's going on, for example, we don't know if we've understood the tradition, if we have understood the tradition, try to get rid of not being sure of understanding. And we won't try to get understanding. Did you get that? It's kind of important. No. Devotion makes our offerings, like years of devotion makes our offerings trustworthy when we feel it. Yeah. So, if I'm devoted to a tradition, and the tradition is the Buddha way, my devotion will lead to my birth, my rebirth in the tradition.

[75:54]

Should I say that again? Yes. If I'm devoted to a tradition, For example, like the Buddha way, when my devotion becomes firmly established, I will have a communion with this tradition. Does that make sense? If I'm not devoted to the tradition, I enter into a deep communion with it. But not because it doesn't want to commune with me. It's because I'm holding back my devotion. If I give my devotion completely to the tradition, it will commune with me. And in that communion, this particular tradition, the thought of enlightenment, the aspiration of Buddhas for the welfare of the world, that will arise in me. And when it arises in me, it will lead me to become free of trying to get anything from anything, including the traditions. I'm no longer trying to get anything from the tradition, I'm not trying to get rid of anything from the tradition or any place.

[77:02]

Now I'm ready to modify the tradition. Not to get anything, and not to get rid of anything. So if we start chanting the names of women, if it's from, if it's from, it's from not trying to get rid of anything or get anything. We're just chanting the name of women teachers. We're not trying to get anything. Now, people who chant the name of women teachers to get something or to get rid of something, we wish them well. That's not our tradition. The Mahayana, you're not trying to get anything. And you can modify your service, you can modify your ceremonies. for the sake of demonstrating that you're wholeheartedly doing something without trying to get anything or get rid of anything. So I don't think Mahayana Buddhism is trying to get rid of the patriarchy or to try to get a matriarchy.

[78:07]

I think it's not trying to get anything or get rid of anything. And it may modify the situation so there's no patriarchs. You might get something by that, just like cross-out patriarch, which we did. When we translated our scriptures with various scholars, and one of them, a very famous scholar named Stanley Weinstein, he said, well, that character for ancestor, it has a phallus in it. We said, oh, thank you. Now we're better educated. The character that's translated as patriarch, and which is now translated as ancestor, has an image for the Faldo Senate. Now we say Buddhas and ancestors. We don't say Buddhas and patriarchs anymore. But there's a lot of books that still say Buddhas and patriarchs. The Bodhisattvas are not trying to get rid of those people who say patriarchs.

[79:11]

We're trying to get people who don't say patriarchs. They're not into that. But they are into creative activity to express, not trying to get anything. Clean the temple without trying to get a clean temple. Clean the temple without trying to get rid of dirt. Since you've been talking about diving deeply into the sutras, I wonder if you would say something about our actual chanting of the sutras. I've noticed that a lot of people seem to be very enthusiastically chanting every single of the sutras, which leads me to wonder when they're able to take a breath. Did you hear what she said?

[80:14]

So she's asking about the way we put our devotion to the practice of chanting. Is that right? So how are you doing? Do you feel like you're like devoted to the chanting of the sutras? Is it like something you're devoted to? Some people, yes. And are you also, in your devotion, are you open to getting feedback on how you're chanting? You are? So I'm not going to say would the devoted people go to this side of the room. But let's just, let's just, and feedback means you listen, right? It doesn't mean you do what you hear, but you listen. So, maybe, would you like to offer something to the Great Assembly?

[81:18]

Something that you would. Well, I just, what I just offered was... when we have a chance to chin it. Okay? What would it mean for you to chant wholeheartedly, for you to give yourself this moment of chanting and feel like this is your gift to the world, to chant Avalokiteshvara? What would that be like for you? And do you feel like you're ready to chant with your whole heart and your whole body? By the way, this Ehe Koso Hotsugamon at the beginning, I thought that was great, the way you did it. How did you feel chanting it? Sometimes we're getting into it. And also, if you... trying to chant that way, you might also ask your friends for any ideas they have about how to practice that way.

[82:30]

And ask them if they want to practice that way. So, we're going to have a service in just a few minutes. And so when we do it, there's a chance to do a traditional thing, free of gain and loss, and an opportunity to chant wholeheartedly. Let's just try that today at noon service. Those who are blessed with the opportunity. Well, I'll confess, occasionally I try to get something chanting. I apologize. You do? Well, thank you so much for confessing that. Maybe somebody else is like that too sometimes. Which words Which words betray it? Betray it. Betray it? Betray the silence. Betray? Betray.

[83:33]

No word betrays the silence. The thing that betrays the silence is forgetting it. So right now I'm talking to you. But my words are not betraying the silence. The thing that betrays the silence would be that I forget the silence when I'm talking to you. I'm devoted to the silence. That's the context in which I want to talk to you. And if I feel that I'm wholeheartedly taking care of silence when I talk to you, I think I feel I'm wholeheartedly talking to you. In a way, if I forget when I'm talking to you, it isn't that I betray my words, I'm just not wholehearted. I'm sort of getting ahead of myself because I'm not starting with silence before I speak.

[84:35]

So I think the betrayal of the silence is not being when we talk. And I think taking care of the silence and being devoted to the silence would mean remembering silence when we talk. And also observing, is this talk in accord with silence? Not necessarily. I would usually feel like it's not in accord because I wasn't listening to the silence. And if I don't listen to silence, then I might not listen to my own speech. And if I'm not listening to silence, I might not listen to yours. And if I am listening to silence and being mindful of silence, that also helps me notice that I'm trying to get something from this chanting.

[85:41]

I'm very restless now. Thank you, Roshi. Did you say you're restless? Okay. So, restless is a word. And if you remember silence, then that word will not betray you. If you forget it, it's not that the word restless betrays it, it's your forgetfulness that betrays it. Just like taking care of a baby, it's not the baby that betrays your mindfulness, it's your mind that betrays your mindfulness. The baby's crying doesn't betray your silence. Your lack of mindfulness of silence betrays the silence. It's possible to learn to remember and be mindful of silence when the baby's crying. That should help us to listen more wholeheartedly.

[86:45]

It's sometimes really hard to listen to babies cry. A line full of silence and stillness is to help us listen more wholeheartedly, and to speak more wholeheartedly, and to be restless more wholeheartedly. Thank you for showing yourself to us. Okay, well, the kitchen has left, so that means it's 10.30. Is that enough for this morning? Be pleased to every being and place, with the true character put away.

[87:41]

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