We're studying this case 11, and there's some new people here, so this case reveals some, what do you say? you might say, some bad influences or unfortunate influences that happen in the process of Zen training. There's all kinds of unfortunate influences all over the world, right? But there's a special kind, there's four special kinds or five special kinds of bad influences that happen only to Zen practitioners.

[01:04]

That's what these four are, or five. Okay, so... Actually, I think I... Could we chant the Fukan Zazengi in morning service for a day or so? In the Fukan Zazengi, the Fukan Zazengi is a meditation text which will... chant in morning service tomorrow. And in there it says, though you are proud of your understanding and replete with insight, getting hold of wisdom, getting hold of the wisdom that knows at a glance, though you attain the way and clarify the mind, giving rise to a spirit which assaults the heavens, you may loiter in the precincts of the entrance and still lacks something of the vital way, total liberation.

[02:11]

That's a little bit different translation from what you're familiar with, but I've always had some problem with that because it sounds so good. Can you read that again, please? Okay. Okay. Though you are proud of your understanding and replete with insight, getting hold of the wisdom that knows at a glance, though you attain the way and clarify the mind, giving rise to a spirit which assaults the heavens, you may loiter in the precincts of the entrance and still lack something of the vital way of liberation. So, as I say, I've always had some funny feeling about that because after this, what sounds like excellent situation, Dogen Zenji says, but you're still sort of just hanging around at the doorway which enters into the actual way of vital emancipation.

[03:23]

It sounds so good. That probably doesn't sound so good, but the other stuff sounds good. You clarify the mind and, you know, Another translation is, you attain a wisdom which knows the what of all things? Runs through all things. Yeah, you attain the wisdom which runs through all things. So it sounds so good. So this is, again, the sort of strange thing about this case is we're talking about insights which are very good and yet there's some kind of sickness around these insights. I've gotten a lot of feedback about, particularly the last class, that it was kind of a hard class for people and for various reasons. I'm sorry if it's hard. It is, I think it's a hard case too.

[04:34]

Also, when studying this type of material, there is actually considerable intellectual effort that has to be made. A lot of people I don't know, maybe most people come to Buddhism because of a kind of a heart thing, or a thing about seeing a beautiful way of life that responds to the suffering of human beings. And then as you get into Buddhism, sometimes you find that it seems to be very intellectual. and I don't want to subject you with such an intense intellectual presentation that it discourages you. On the other hand, to learn certain things, to learn certain practices and to receive certain teachings, the teachings finally are not intellectual, they're for your whole body and mind, but the initial phase of receiving the teaching

[05:54]

usually has to be intellectual. Some teachings you may not understand that you're getting intellectual phase first. For example, when you get instruction on how to... postural instruction and instructions in meditation on breathing, the first phase is intellectual. You're first getting intellectual instruction and then after the intellectual instruction you kind of reflect on it and think about it and relate it to various aspects of your life. And then finally, the instruction becomes actually like your body. But the first phase is intellectual. In this teaching, it's very complex, so the first stage is a complex intellectual presentation. We could easily spend a whole class or several classes on each one of these sicknesses. So to try to deal with all four, in fairly, in one or two classes, maybe just too much.

[06:57]

So I don't know exactly how to proceed, but If you feel like you're getting kind of dizzy from all this complexity, maybe you raise your hand and we can be quiet for a little while or something. Maybe we should do that anyway. I think some people, some very sincere people in this class, when they hear this material, they really receive it. and take it in and try to digest it, but it may be too much to digest. Maybe I have to give smaller bites. So if I feed you too fast, you know, just raise your hand and we can chew on what's already been happening for a while. Okay? If you feel overloaded or you want time to absorb this.

[07:57]

Okay, any comments so far? Okay, so the introduction is actually kind of an outline. A bodiless person suffers illness, a handless person... compound medicine, a mouthless person ingests it, a senseless person as well. Tell me, how do you treat an incurable disease? Did we go into this a little bit last time, these four? So I propose that these four correspond to the four illnesses which are described in the main case. But before doing the main case, I think it might be helpful to tell the story which precedes this main case.

[09:06]

Okay? Before, this story of Master Yuen Mun occurred when he was teaching his monks. But before this, when he was a younger person, he was visiting... When he was traveling around, visiting various teachers, he visited this guy named Jian Feng. Okay? And one day, Jian... And he also visited Sao Shan. Sao Shan is... Dharma successor of Dungsan, you know, Tozan Ryokai Dayosho, Ungodoyo Dayosho. Ungodoyo Dayosho's brother, Dharma brother, is this Saushan Dayosho. So Yunmen's living like two generations after Dungsan.

[10:10]

in a different lineage, but he visited Dung Shan's disciples. He also visited Su Shan. So he visited these three big teachers, Jian Feng, Cao Shan, and Su Shan. And he's a successor to Shui Feng. Shree Fung is sepo, which means snowy precipice. So his master is Shree Fung, and he visited these other three teachers. When he was visiting Jian Feng, this happened. Jian Feng said, the Dharma body has three kinds of illness. and two kinds of light. Okay, so these three kinds of, the three kinds of illness of the dharma body and the two lights are like what's talked about here, except they're in reverse order.

[11:19]

Okay? The two lights correspond to these first two sicknesses where the light doesn't circulate. completely. And the three sicknesses of the Dharma body correspond to the next two sicknesses in the main case here. So Jian Feng says, you must pass through them all one by one to realize, one by one, and realize furthermore that there is still an opening going beyond. Okay? Is that instruction somewhat clear? Well, what does it mean you must? Is there a must? Must pass through? Is it just like a progression?

[12:22]

There's a... Well, there's a... It's like a rule. A rule? Well, actually, it didn't... I think Jim brought that up last time. Is it possible that... Is it possible that you won't run into these problems? That you'll... that you'll progress to perfect enlightenment and you won't run into these, that these demons won't visit you on the way. Right? Is that your question? Well, is it possible? What? Would you say that that's possible? Not to run into these problems? I don't think it's possible not to run into these problems as far as I can tell. I would think everybody would go through these problems. Some people... Again, these stages are not a problem in themselves. The problem in each of these stages is if you attach to them.

[13:26]

Each stage is just a certain stage, and there's nothing wrong with that stage. Even if it's got some fault in it, it's not a problem that it has a fault. It is as it... The way it is in itself is just fine, even though it has a limitation. But structurally speaking, I think the human being has to go through these stages. I haven't heard anything, I haven't heard any news that we have a new kind of person around that doesn't go through these stages. But some people are more... Unique to the person, not necessarily exactly like that. Well, each person is definitely unique. As a matter of fact, that is one of the main points here, is how unique everybody is. And if actually we can accept our uniqueness, in a sense, that is the first attainment here on this chart, is accepting your uniqueness as such.

[14:40]

And then other various people will have more or less tendency to attach to attainments. Some people are very... Some people have a tendency to like their attainments more than others. Some people have a tendency to be confused about their attainments. Some people have a tendency to dislike their attainments. So there's, again, part of uniqueness will be how you respond to your attainment. Okay? But... as we go through this, you may be able to see how structurally it's not that likely that anybody's going to miss any of these steps. So he's saying, anyway, you're going to go through these stages, and then he says at the end, and furthermore, and realize furthermore that there is still an opening going beyond. So he's saying, after you go through these stages, and hopefully don't become attached to any of them as you're going through.

[15:48]

And also you get to these stages by not attaching to earlier stages. In other words, if on our present level of awakening and in our present level of practice, if we just can see it as it is and go forward, you know, go straight on, we will get to these stages. If we can just accord with whatever depth or shallowness our practice has, we will move forward and we'll come to these stages. As they happen, if we can recognize them for what they are, not attached to them, we will move forward, we will move through these stages. That's the proposal here. However, at the end of these stages, you have to realize that there is an opening going beyond. In other words, at the end of this whole process, you still keep going. There's never a place where you stop practicing.

[16:50]

Before you attain these awakenings, you practice. After you attain these awakenings, you practice. And you practice right through them. That's one of the unique things about, I don't know if it's unique, that's one of the important characteristics of Buddhism is that before, you eat before and after enlightenment. Some people think that you might not have to eat afterwards. What do you mean when you say practice? Basically, I'm emphasizing detachment. Detachment. That's the main thing. Or deep faith in causation. Not obscuring cause and effect. That's what I'm emphasizing. Or I would say the practices outlined in the first three cases of the Shoyoroku is what I mean by practice. The actual meditative exercises of the first three cases.

[18:02]

What do you... How do you practice in your daily life? Well, like, let's say you're feeling uncomfortable and you feel pressed and irritable and somebody's pushing you and suffocating you in a conversation or something. Well, then to practice, for example, patience is an example of what practice you could do under those circumstances. That's a practice that helps you accept the circumstances of being kind of pressed and suffocated. That's just one example of daily life, okay? That helps you be detached from the circumstances that are pressing upon you. The people that we're talking about here, or you at this stage, you've been practicing patience a long time.

[19:05]

so that now you have, for example, some wisdom. Or we have many other practices, you know, concentration practices, practices to help you be aware of where you are, practices to recognize that what you're experiencing is just your own perception. I mean a wide variety of them. And then I also mean that whatever one you're doing, when your judgmental mind comes in and calculates how you're doing, then you don't let that stop you either. You move forward and And you just notice, well, I say my practice is at this level of whatever. Just like the way you could, you know, what does a Buddha eat like?

[20:15]

What does a person eat like before enlightenment? What do they eat like after enlightenment? Maybe there's some difference in the way they eat before and afterwards. But they eat before and afterwards. There's a practice before and after, but it's not necessarily exactly the same. But the way they cope is a little bit different before and after. And then there is a kind of a process of awakening as the process starts to intensify, and There we have these kinds of things don't happen to everybody. Everybody, I think, feels pressed and irritated and suffocated and pushed and insulted by circumstances in daily life. Almost everybody has that happen to them. Some people practice patience with that. This is very good. Then they don't get so angry if they're successful. Plus they learn how to be patient with whatever's happening, even how to be patient with enlightenment experience.

[21:17]

Some people don't practice patience, but everybody experiences some kind of irritation and pressure. These kinds of experiences not everybody has to face. But the practice of detachment applies all the way through and beyond. So the story, then after John Fung said this, Yan Men came forward out of the assembly and he talked. But it's okay with you.

[22:23]

I would like to postpone the dialogue that happened until later because I think maybe later you'll understand the dialogue better. Is that okay? Now I'd like to go back to the main case. So here, Master Yunmen is, which Yunmen means, by the way, cloud gate. He says, uh, When the light does not penetrate freely, there are two kinds of sickness. And again, light penetrating freely means when your awakening doesn't penetrate freely. There's two kinds of sickness. And again, these two kinds of sickness are different from attaching to them. So one kind of sickness, the first kind of sickness is when all places are not clear and there is something before you.

[23:32]

The second kind of sickness is having penetrated the emptiness of all things, suddenly it seems like something is there. This too is the light not penetrating freely. Okay, so these two correspond to the two lights that Jian Feng was talking about. How can it be two lights? Two lights means two ways that the light, it's actually, it is called two lights, but that's a nickname, okay? It has to do with movement. It has to do with movement of light, it has to do with the lack, the interference with the movement of light. Okay? It's a nickname. You could also call these two enlightenments. But they're called two lights or two sicknesses.

[24:37]

Can you see? I propose that, yeah, that what Jian Feng was talking about is what Yin Min calls the two sicknesses. Because it says that later on in the text. Yeah, I agree with the commentator. It's hard to figure out exactly what they meant. They were the same. The sicknesses and the light were the same. You mean why they do that? Well, as we read the commentary, you maybe see some more reasons why they would say that because... Okay, just go ahead. I asked you to make a chart so that it would help you to line them up. Anyway, it's just... Just try them on as the same and see if you have any problem later. There's a second one, having penetrated the emptiness and then seeming like there is something.

[25:44]

Is that telling out the holding emptinesses of you? No. There's two kinds of selflessness, two kinds of selflessness, okay? Two kinds of liberation from self-clinging. One kind is called, here's old Sanskrit. Somebody write this on the board? I didn't know, easiest one. The first one is called Pudgala Nairatmya. The next one is called Dharma Nairatmya. Two kinds of selflessness. So I would suggest to you that these two sicknesses are actually two realizations of selflessness.

[26:48]

The first, purgala means person. And the second, dharma. And while you're at it, he might write klesha avarana. Maybe write karma avarana, klesha avarana, and nyaya avarana. Thanks.

[28:11]

I don't know if you can read this. Can you see him? No? No? Well, the angle of the light. Anyway, after class, you can meet him from up in the coffee room if you want to. You can read him on there. So the first one's Pulkala, Pulkala person, Nairatmiya, Atmiya. Have you heard of Atman? Atman means, you know, self. So the way, they had this thing called anatman. You've heard that teaching of Buddha? Anatman means no self. This is a different Sanskrit construction. Nai means not. So it's the same as saying anatman, except it's saying nairatmya. So it means the no-self of the person, okay? And another one is the no-self, or the lack of self, of dharmas, of things. Those are two levels of selflessness, or two levels of release from self-cleaning. Okay?

[29:13]

Those two, I propose, are the two, the first two, the first two sequences. Who blocks the person? Putgala is person. Meaning, in this case, the subject. Yeah, right. In other words, there's various kinds of self. For me, you know, Steward, looking at steward is also a self, but it's a self not of me, but it's a self of an object in my life, something I see over there. Also communism or a glass of water, all these things are things that you can make a thing out of them. Or nothing, you can make a thing out of nothing. Okay? Pudgala nairatmya is the selflessness of a person, and that would correspond to the first one.

[30:15]

But that's an attainment, you see. This is realizing that the person that there isn't really a person yet, is a kind of enlightenment, all right? It's understanding the first level of Buddha's teaching of anatma, Buddha's teaching of what it means, no-self teaching. Buddha's teaching of no-self is also the teaching about what the self really is. So the first level of what the self is, is that there's no self to the person, or to the personality. This is called the first sickness, but it's also a realization. It is the removal of an obscuration.

[31:16]

It is the removal of a hindrance in our life. The hindrance it corresponds to is klesha avarana. So does that relate to the bodiless man? Is that not being attached to form? Is that also related to this first sickness? Yes, but bodiless is short for body-mindless. See, most people misunderstand the body-mind complex, the psychophysical complex of the five aggregates. of form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. These formations which create, these psychophysical patterns which create an experience of a living being, are misconstrued by people as a person. or, for example, as a body with arms and legs.

[32:17]

Form, the form skandha is not arms and legs. That's a misconception of them. But anyway, that is what most people do. That's what they do. So a relief from that clinging to the idea of the existence of a person, that's the attainment of purdala nairatmya. This person, in the first sickness, is actually the first attainment. The first major attainment in Buddhist practice is here called the first sickness. It's the first irreversible major breakthrough into Buddhist practice, is to realize that there really isn't a thing, a permanent, graspable, independent entity called a person. So in the language of this case, this breakthrough, this considerable attainment is called a sickness.

[33:18]

It's called a sickness for two reasons. One is that it's not complete. There's further stages to be worked out. Two, even though it's a great attainment, and it is a great attainment, once you attain this, you will attain perfect enlightenment in no more than seven lifetimes. You become what is called a stream enterer at this stage. What does the avarana translate? Okay. So avarana means hindrance or covering. Okay. In the Heart Sutra it says, when there's no hindrance, no fears exist. All right. It literally says, I believe it says, when there's no avarana, there's no fear. And in the Heart Sutra it talks about two avaranas, the klesha avarana and the nyaya avarana.

[34:25]

Klesha means defilement, or you might say, literally means staining. It's a kind of bias. It's an obstruction due to being biased, particularly being biased or staying in the direction of believing in a person. Nyaya means knowable. So that's the obstruction due to... As soon as you know things, there's an obstruction due to knowing. Nyaya means what? Nyaya is related to the root J-N-A, you know, nya, which is related to pradya, samya, jnana, and also gnosis. It has to do with knowing. So that nyaya means, nyaya harana means the obstruction or the hindrance which is due to knowing things. It's one step more subtle.

[35:26]

And the karma avarana is the obstruction due to action. Now before you have any breakthroughs, before you have any insight into the insubstantiality of the self, you have all kinds of obstructions due to karma. For example, getting angry, or getting greedy, or getting impatient, or getting discouraged, or getting so encouraged you think you don't have to practice meditation anymore. Or, you know, all the daily life karmic activities which undermine your practice, those are those kind of hindrances. When these have been put aside, then you're primed for, when they've been removed, then you're primed for this klesha avarana to be removed. And the removal of that happens with this attainment of realizing that there's nothing to the self, really. then you feel, you know, proud of your realization, you're replete with insight, you see a wisdom that runs through all things, or you see a wisdom that you can see at a glance, this is really good stuff, you think you're hot stuff.

[36:42]

Now you have the sickness of... But you're still sort of loitering around the door. This is a really excellent door. This is the door to the vital way of total emancipation, but still you're just loitering around the door. You actually kind of got inside the door, actually. Maybe you didn't. Anyway, even being around the doorway is a pretty hot stuff, which you might get really excited. Just being around the doorway of total emancipation, loitering around the doorway, kind of hanging out saying, well, what are you going to do tonight? I was thinking going to that door. Well, you are going to go to that door? Yeah. Who is going to go through that door? Oh, yeah. One minute, just a second.

[37:45]

So for somebody who's removed the karma, is that like anger never arises for them, or it may arise but it's no hindrance? It's transparent if it arises. if it arises, it only arises for the benefit of other beings. It might arise, I would say this, that if it's arising, and if it's arising, let's see, how do they handle it so that there's no problem? You know, when you're actually meditating like this, I don't think there is really anger, it's not really an issue.

[38:51]

Now, such a person, it's not like, but I would not say that such a person will not later get angry. I won't say that. Okay, so this... There are in Buddhism five paths, okay? The Buddhist path is sometimes laid out into five paths. The first path is called the path of equipment. The second path is called the path of concerted effort. The third path is called the path of seeing. The fourth path is called the path of cultivation. And the fifth path is called the path of no more learning. you know, you do no more training. Okay, those five paths. The first two paths are, in a sense, most of what you see in the world as Buddhist practice. And the first of those two is most of, more than half of what you ordinarily run into as Buddhist practice.

[40:01]

The third path, the path of insight, or the path of vision, At the beginning of the third path is where this darshana marga starts. I mean, it's where this purgala nairapamiya first happens. That's where, strictly speaking, Buddhism starts happening, in the sense of you're actually doing kind of like what Buddhas do, in the sense that you actually had seen nirvana. You actually had tasted selflessness deeply. You actually have, at least for a moment, you actually gave up your belief that there's a person. This is an irreversible insight. This is the first stage here that's in this case here, the first sickness. And this klesha avarana is removed. But the next path, the Bhavana Marga, I mean, it's called Sanskrit Bhavana Marga, the path of cultivation, is you go through and you kind of scrub yourself.

[41:09]

You scrub all your emotional tendencies with this insight. You still, you have insight, but you still have a whole mass of habits, of emotional habits. So that if someone insults you in a certain way, if they catch you in a moment of laziness, and they get you off balance and they get you just right, you get angry. However, you actually have added insight that there's really not anybody there to get hurt by this insight. So you can apply your insight to this emotional tendency. And this path of vision is very quick. It has different aspects to be complete, but basically can happen in 16 moments. It can happen rather rapidly. The path after that, however, can take many years, or sometimes seven lifetimes, where you take your new vision of the world and you apply it to all your habits and all your tendencies.

[42:10]

After that's done, you're no longer in training. You're a graduate of the Buddhist training program, and you just sort of hang out with people then. You don't have to train yourself anymore, although you may train yourself just for old time's sake. Okay. And now, at this phase of actually entering into the actual Buddhist practice where you're actually... Here's another division, is that before this happens, your practices, although they're wholesome, let's say, let's say you just talked about wholesome practice, although they're wholesome, they have outflows. After this, your practices don't have outflows. After what? After this, after this sickness starts here, after this, after that your practices don't have outflows. What is an outflow? Outflow means you no longer really think in terms of gain and loss.

[43:12]

It means that when you do things, you no longer have a kind of a dualistic view of what you're doing. So you're not really accumulating karma anymore. But you're actually accumulating karma up to this point. Even though you're doing what prepares you for insight, you're still accumulating karma up to that point. At that point you stop and you start undoing your karma. The insight itself doesn't really undo the karma. The insight corrects your view so that what you do from that point of view will now undo the karma. The path of cultivation, or the path of meditation which follows, is where you start to clean up this meditation, not remove it, I mean remove this karma. Before that, it's also true, clean up this meditation. Does that mean that the habitual responses actually no longer come up? No, they do come up. That's why, you know... Even in the fourth past, the habitual things are still coming up.

[44:19]

And that's why you can see people who have insight If you know them, if they're your friend and you know what happened to them, you can believe that they had insight. Or even if you have them check out with their teacher, their teacher says, yes, they did have insight, but they can still be a real jerk. And you say things to them and they still snap at you with their nastiness. Or they're still real selfish. But the good news is that although they're doing all these bad things still, every time they do a bad thing, They learn from it. And every time they do a bad thing, it's one more strike against that bad thing. They're washing it away because they see how stupid it is. Isn't that the nature of the cultivation? That's the nature of the cultivation, is to expose your ordinary human habits, which you have been carrying all the way through the practice, and improving too through the practice in a way, cleaning up. But still some things are blatantly still there and can be activated by certain patterns.

[45:23]

Now you bring them up and you start seeing through them because they're exposed to this vision of a lack of self. Now, through that process, you're starting also to develop the next level of insight, which is to... Yeah. The insight into the emptiness thing develops during the fourth path, or in other words, you start to realize the emptiness of the environment. You realize that the whole universe also lacks inherent existence. Not just the person, but the whole universe does. And that means your own feelings, your emotions, the perceptions, but also colors, sounds, smells, tastes, and touchables, they're all empty. All right? So, how many people raised their hand? Did you? I did, but my question has gone past. Okay. And you all? This is technical, but my thought was that if you snack at somebody, it's hard for me to see how that's not karmically active, or that is, say, leading to retribution.

[46:38]

It is, but if you learn at that moment, then maybe you won't do it again. For example, if you see, hey, there actually was nobody there to be harmed by that insult, so the habit may be still operating even after the... the original cause of the habit, namely protection of something that wasn't there, is gone. But to see the habit happen without seeing the reason for the habit anymore, you go, hmm? If you do that enough times, pretty soon the habit doesn't happen anymore. But if you keep snapping, it does keep creating karma. It's true. But you don't instantly stop doing any karma. It's just that you start turning the huge vehicle of karma starts getting turned around. during this time, not suddenly, completely stops. Because again, if that were the case, then as soon as a person had insight, then maybe the last time they did every bad habit they had would be one more time.

[47:47]

But it isn't just one more time. It's, I would say, approximately seven to fifteen. There's a general rule of once you see how stupid something is, you have to see it's stupid about fifteen times before you don't do it anymore. If you, well, like it says here, you're proud of your attainment. It says, though you are proud of your attainment, And you, what is it, you're giving rise to a spirit which assaults the very heavens, you know, like you think, and then you can, this is great, you know, this is the other side of the sickness. Okay, pride, and then the limitation. So again, this is a Zen style of way of talking.

[48:51]

Instead of saying, these are the four enlightenments, they talk about the four sicknesses, always looking at it from the negative point of view, right? talking about this from its limitation rather than its breakthrough. This is Zen's way of talking about it, partly, I think, to keep us from attaching to it. If you read about these same stages in the earlier Buddhist teachings, these are states of saintliness, of sainthood, these stages, right? And there too they want people not to attach to them, but they don't emphasize that so much as in then. Because again, those stages, in those books where they describe these things, these are Theravada texts. They're texts as individual vehicle. And in the individual vehicle, they're not so worried about people attaching to these stages. For the path of the arhat, they're not so worried about pride. The bodhisattvas are very worried about pride.

[49:54]

So they're really afraid these people are going to sort of say, are just going to camp out in these personal realizations. So these calm sicknesses, all four of them, even though the last one is basically perfect enlightenment, on the level of a perfectly enlightened arhat. But it's always looking up in the point of view, you may stop practicing. and you have an endless job of converting all beings, so you should not see this as final, you should always realize that there is an opening going beyond, that you never stop this process because you're not talking about your own personal liberation. So that's why this is reversed. If you look in the Abhidharma Kosha where these five paths are taken care of, this thing comes in at this place where very few people get that far. As I say, if you look at most people's practices, his first two paths, his last three paths are, excuse me for saying so, the elite of Buddhism are in those last three paths.

[51:01]

But this book talks about them as four sicknesses. To keep people from being elitist, which is, you know, and also to remember you can't help but be elitist. Almost everybody will fall along the way here. I have a feeling my stomach's kind of jumping and my heart's really pounding. This has something to do with the price of rice and the link. I have no idea what exactly it is. Yeah, you're right, it does. That style of practice to keep us down close to the ground, you know, even though This monk's asking about a very lofty... he's asking about what is the highest meaning, what is the great meaning of the Buddha Dharma, you know, he wants to know about that. He's got this high interest and he's talking to a great monk. The great master says, let's keep close to the ground here. Let's, you know, just take care of our daily life here at Zen Center.

[52:09]

Let's be concerned with taking care of the fields and the kitchen. That's what we should take care of here. Of course, we shouldn't then sort of forget about these stages of removing these hindrances. As the Heart Sutra says, when there's no hindrance, no fear exists. If we don't remove these hindrances, we'll be afraid. There'll be some fear. In order to be fearless and really do our work to benefit all beings, we have to remove these hindrances. Bodhisattvas have to get rid of these hindrances. Removing these hindrances means realizing these levels of selflessness. But let's not get arrogant about it. Let's not get proud about it. Let's not think we're hot shots. So the spirit of the fifth case is very much the spirit of being humble and... But not just being humble, because some people can be humble and say, I'm very humble.

[53:15]

In fact, I'm so humble, I'm going to attach to this thing. I'm such a poor guy. I just can't help but camp out here. But if you're feeling proud, how can you be fearful and proud at the same time? You think you can be? Yeah. I think most proud people are afraid. I think so. Most big powerful people are afraid too. That's what they got all that power for. Let's see, there's a tie between Jim and Pam. I'll give him the pen. Okay. I'm just back to that question about... In the second sickness, when you say this is equivalent to this fourth path where the emptiness of all things is seen, so you've got no self and no self in anything else, what is the subtle... Suddenly it seems like there is something.

[54:18]

What is the something in that case, if not this? Well, let's look at these stories then. So it says, the first one is, everywhere is not clear, and it seems like there's something before you. So you remove the sense of believing in the personality, but you still think something's before you. In other words, you still think the environment exists. Okay? And so one stage of insight is no attachment to self, and you might look around and say, everything's the same as me. But that's still not quite enough. You also have to say that the totality of what's happening is what I really am. Now, in the next stage, at this dharma-nirapaniya, ordinarily that's considered to be good enough.

[55:26]

But it is proposed here that, again, to anticipate the verse, deep down inside, hidden away, there still is a belief that there's something there. You have realized you have realized, you understand that there's not really anything there, even in the environment. You have had that insight. But still, there's a belief that there's something there. Even while you have this insight, even while this Nyehavaran has been renewed, And I would propose too, I haven't studied this very carefully, I thought about this, but I'm just going to say to you now, maybe this is the reason why we have the bodhisattva path. Because the arhat path, that's enough.

[56:33]

And even in the Heart Sutra it says, when you remove it without any hindrances, no fears exist. It's a very great state. These two are being removed, these first two, that by the second one you're in really great shape. However, there still may be some subtle belief that something's there. Still a little bit of self there. So what does it say? Doesn't it say that? Mm-hmm. It seems like something, like there is something. Oh, no, it's in the second one that they say it. It still seems like there's something, okay? Subtle. Subtle. Okay. So it's not a, it's anyway, it was... Are these states where you realize that, we don't know, for instance, are these realized through meditative concentration? And through other means, or is meditative concentration really the way? You mean, can you achieve them in the kitchen?

[57:34]

Yeah, in the kitchen. But is that... How? Through meditative concentration. There's more stories in Zen literature, I think, about people attaining enlightenment in the kitchen than there are about them attaining enlightenment in the Zendo. Not because there's more in the kitchen. There's more in the zendo than in the kitchen. But in the zendo, it's not that people don't really... It's not worth mentioning. But still, there are many stories of people awakening in the kitchen. Like he says, where you separate the rice from the sand, or the sand from the rice. These people were concentrated, right? And people in our kitchen are concentrated too, right? They're practicing meditative concentration in the kitchen, hopefully, so that they can have insights while they're working in the kitchen.

[58:37]

And also we have stories in the field, right? The next story is about so-and-so planning his hole, right? We have a hole here? Yeah. Dezong plants his hoe. So on the field, too, these guys are practicing meditative concentration. And this guy walks by Nanchuan and he says, where's Nanchuan? Nanchuan's out there cutting the thatch or whatever, you know, with his little sickle. And these people are practicing meditative concentration. And not only are they concentrated, but they're trying to concentrate in such a way as to concentrate with no device. They don't even have like, you know, I'm going to concentrate right on the carrots, or on the water, or on the knife. Their main concentration is not to have any objects. If you can be in the kitchen and stay concentrated on not having objects, then you're spontaneously at peace.

[59:44]

So wherever you are in a monastery or in a temple, you always try to have no object before you. You keep concentrating on that exercise and then your mind is spontaneously pacified. And in that state is the best situation in order to be able to see that this psychophysical drama that's appearing all the time, which is not actually a person there, independent of that drama. Because this seems to be a lot more complicated than my practice, all of this stuff about... This isn't your practice. This is just a story about your practice. Most people don't think of themselves as being on the path of preparation or the path of concerted effort or the path of vision or whatever. But if somebody tells me about their practice, I can tell which path they're on, right? Everybody's on some place on these five paths. Or if you hear somebody talk about their insights, their insights either make it up into these four sicknesses or they don't.

[60:49]

Okay? But the people don't walk around necessarily thinking of themselves as being one of these sicknesses or being on a path of preparation or something. But in fact, in the Abhidharma Kosha, certain practices, like... and certain levels, like the four foundations of mindfulness, they're in there, and if you're doing the four foundations of mindfulness a certain way, you're in the path of preparation. If you're doing the four foundations of mindfulness in another way, you're in the path of concerted effort, and then if you have insight into this, you're in the path of vision. So, although the people don't think, well, I'm on such and such a path, they're just doing these practices, in fact, you can tell by the way they're doing the practice what path they're on, So as part of being a Buddhist teacher is to be able to tell where a person fits in this spectrum. But the most important thing is wherever you are in the spectrum, you just accord with that, and you don't worry about getting someplace else in the spectrum, and you don't hold on to just your related attainment, you don't hold on to feeling bad about being low or high, and then you go forward.

[61:58]

If you hold on to being low or high, then you're stuck. So we're always basically going straight on. You don't have to think of it this way. I'm just saying this because eventually you should understand that this applies to people. I mean, people actually are on this chart and this accounts for everybody. I think the more I study this, the more I find I can use it to see how people are doing and basically see how the whole thing is going right along. Everybody's got a place in this picture. And it's great. Back there. In the field of clinical psychology, which I understand you study as well, there are symptoms, you know, for depersonalization and derealization that are said to be symptoms of people suffering from, you know, unconscious conflicts or sweating to come to the floor and they're getting anxious so they suddenly stop feeling real themselves and the world stops feeling real.

[63:13]

And I really wonder how that relates to these two, sickness and the four attainments. Well, without trying to figure out how they relate, I would just say that the basic Buddhist message is that you first of all have to have a self before you can forget it. If you don't have a clear sense of self and ego at any point in the practice, then you probably wouldn't be here. Or you need to do some kind of, what do you call it? Affirmation. Affirmation of the self or developing some… Some people have to develop an ego before they're going to be able to practice Buddhism. So to do certain kinds of insight practices with a poorly formed ego, is counter-indicated, and a teacher has to be able to tell if somebody does not yet have an ego developed, or if there's a hole in the ego, or if there's what you call foreign elements incorporated into the ego and stuff like that.

[64:24]

The shape and texture and pattern of the ego has to be ascertained. But if someone walks in the door and already has these ways of understanding, usually it's that they don't yet have an ego. Once in a while somebody will walk in already having attained these, but it's very rare. Mostly it's the person needs to do some ego strengthening before they're going to be able to do Buddhist practice. So some people come in and start doing Buddhist practice and they do it very religiously. And they get worse and worse, and less and less able to do it. And you find out that actually what you have is somebody who is trying to deconstruct something that isn't even there. So, like I was saying before, some practices don't really apply to certain people. Like some practices for men aren't appropriate for women. And if women try to do that, they may feel like, Either I'm no good at this, or something's wrong with me, or something's wrong with Buddhism.

[65:29]

It's just maybe a misapplied meditation. But those terms, I don't know, they might apply here in some other way. It's possible that some clinical problems may crop up, even to people who have some considerable awakening. There's all kinds of interesting patterns that can happen. I think a person who has had insight could go crazy. I think it could happen. I can imagine certain ways it would go. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the words you said while doing the send-off about what Suzuki said. You are just perfect the way you are, but you need an improvement. I've been thinking about this and then I say for instance, where this is the world of duality.

[66:34]

Because we are perfect, but at the same time we need improvement. Kind of duality. And now, I think the improvement is that, progress. You know? But I'm still thinking this is a kind of delusion. This is delusion? This problem. Yeah, it is. This is delusion, this whole thing you're talking about here, delusion. Finally I say, what is the point of all of these things in the Dharma? It's just to awake a little bit. It's just to awake a little bit. That's what this is about. Buddhas are those who are deeply awakened about delusion. That's what Buddhas are enlightened about, is delusion.

[67:38]

And these are the delusions which are particular to Zen training or Buddhist training, these delusions. This is the, yeah. What's the matter? No. Did I, huh? Okay. Yeah. I'm calling. How do you have no object? How do you have no object? Yeah. uh... You have no object already.

[68:54]

Very basically, you already have no object. In other words, your original mind, which is always with you, has no object. All of us are walking around with a mind which we... you know, our realm of psychic activity in which we have objects and we know things. Simultaneously, we are alive with, there is living with us another realm of the psyche which doesn't have objects. It doesn't have a technique for how it doesn't have objects. It just doesn't have them. It just doesn't, it doesn't have concepts. In order to have an object, which, excuse me, by an object I mean, you know, an object which is outside yourself. In order to have an object you have to have a concept of an object. There is a part of our psychic makeup, and as a matter of fact in some ways it's most of our psychic makeup, which doesn't have concepts for objects, which is going on all the time.

[70:04]

There's no way that it does that, that's just the way it's built. Okay? So it's not so much how do you not have objects, it's more how do you awaken and get intimate with the realm that doesn't have objects? How do you get cozy with a realm that doesn't know things? Or how does the realm where there's no knowledge somehow become illuminated and intimate with a realm that isn't knowledge? How do you become sure that that realm is totally alive in your life? Well, one way is just to think about this realm. Thinking about this realm is not the realm, however. You can only think about it in the busy, objective realm. We have two stories about this. One story is the story of, what time is it?

[71:09]

Quarter of... One story is the story of this guy who collected dragons. All kinds of dragons. Pictures of dragons, carved dragons out of wood, out of, I think, you know, jade. He's in China. Anyway, he had quite a dragon collection. And one time a dragon... a real dragon sort of heard about this guy collecting dragons and figured, well, he'd probably like to meet a real dragon. And also, real dragons kind of like people who collect dragons because, you know, they're kind of, it's kind of like a baseball player who kind of goes and visits kids that collect baseball cards. So the real dragon came to visit this guy, and when the real dragon came to visit this guy, the guy fainted. Some people say that that means if the real dragon comes, you'll faint. Well, actually it's true. If the real dragon, if this real dragon I'm talking about came, if you actually saw it, it would blow your circuits because you're not supposed to see the realm that you can't ordinarily see.

[72:21]

If you could actually see that realm, it probably would blow your circuits because in that realm, for example, you're cozy with everybody. You could see the realm where you're cozy with everybody. You can't actually see how you're cozy with everybody, but if you somehow could, it would blow your circuits. Right? So you can't see it. But then it goes... The Buddhist interpretation of the story that Dogen makes in the classical called Zazen Shin is he says that the... you know, dragons fly in the air and they produce clouds and steam, okay? It's part of their work, real dragons do. Okay? But he says that working with carved dragons produces the same clouds and steam as the real dragons do. So while you're down here carving your little dragon, in the realm of knowledge, in the realm of knowing, in the realm where you have objects.

[73:22]

Walking around, going and seeing all these objects, okay? Simultaneously, above your head, there's a real dragon. And that's producing all this wonderful bliss of having no objects and so on, of having a calm mind. But you're part of that same world and your little activity here is producing the same thing. You're part of the whole thing. So you're no better or worse than this real dragon. So by thinking about the real dragon and loving the real dragon and also taking care of this little world where you have objects, somehow this realm starts to dawn on you. and you start to become more and more certain that actually there is a realm that doesn't have objects. And the more certain you are of the realm that doesn't have objects, the more this spontaneous composure is realized. Meantime, in the realm where you know things, you can also do exercises of concentration, and by concentrating on objects.

[74:24]

And as you do exercises of concentrating on objects, you may notice how just the idea of not having objects is calming. But anyway, the original mind that doesn't have objects is undisturbed. As soon as there's objects, it's a disturbance. And so the more you study this, the more certain you become, the more certain you become of it, the more, in fact, you realize this. Okay? You talked about courage and things are real simple there, and developing that kind of a mental... Well, I'm trying to remember one of the lectures that you gave on developing this courage, and that things are real simple in this place where this courage comes from, I guess, or where you arrive there.

[75:26]

At the same time you're talking about this person that collected dragons and it would probably blow your circuits. I mean, can you develop the cards to get to the point where the dragon won't blow your circuits, where it's just dragon? I said that, but the dragon doesn't blow your circuits. You never see it. Fortunately or unfortunately, you don't see it. It doesn't blow your circuits. Because in fact, as soon as you see it, it's not the real dragon anymore. As soon as you see it, you convert the real dragon into a card dragon. However, like I also said that thing about D.H. Lawrence, he says, this is what I know, that I am what I am, that the known self is a little clearing in the middle of the dark forest. Occasionally, gods come out of the forest into the clearing, and then they go back. So there are these little visitations from the realm beyond knowledge. In other words, if you look carefully at what happens in the realm of knowledge, you'll notice that things do not...

[76:33]

happen the way they should if that was all that was happening. For example, if you look in the realm of knowledge, it would not make sense that people are as loving as they are. Love is a major contradiction to what you know. Especially love that some people have manifested in this world. The love of some people is inconceivable in the realm that you can see. The way people embrace people who don't deserve to be embraced is incredible. The reason why they do that is because there's a realm which you don't know about where they are the same person with. There is a realm of our psychic life where we all are connected and where everybody is you. Therefore, the more you realize that realm,

[77:35]

the more you can do acts of love which would not make sense in the realm where you can see. And the more enlightened people are living examples that what we can see and what we know couldn't possibly be all that's going on. It just doesn't make sense. There is a lot going on that we do not know about. And scientists, you know, everybody seems to pretty much agree that there is more going on than what you know about. But if you could see that realm, it wouldn't be that realm anymore. It just wouldn't be. As soon as the light's on it, you lose it. You lose it, but it doesn't mean it's gone, you just lose it. And you just convert it into another thing you know about, which is fine, no problem. How you doing?

[78:40]

You ready? What do you want to do now? Want to study this another week? Rather than try to finish it this week? Yeah. Okay, we'll study it another week. The next two... I'll just basically say that the next one, you... you go one step deeper than the past one, you go beyond even this realization of the emptiness of things, and you actually attain enlightenment in the next phase. The next phase is actually enlightenment. However, what happens in the next phase is, although you actually attain enlightenment, you actually attain the truth body, your body becomes a truth body, still, even though you're enlightened, it is possible to have attachment to real enlightenment.

[79:58]

Now this stage is a stage where you no longer even have the belief, the subtle belief that there's something there. However, and that's even a thoroughgoing enlightenment, but still you get attached to that. And in the next stage, you become attached to that and you fall into the side of the Dharmakaya. You get stuck over on the side of the truth body. In the next stage, you even... you notice that that's a problem and you're very vigilant and even protect yourself from attaching to perfect enlightenment. And that is really perfect enlightenment. However, now you're not even attaching to enlightenment, but still the thought occurs, what breath is there? And that's a literal translation, but another translation is,

[81:04]

means what breadth is there, or could there even be a breadth of a problem here? So another translation of it would be, what inadequacy could there be? So you're not attached to the enlightenment. You've guided yourself from it, but still there is a subtle feeling of how could there possibly be more to do? And in fact, there is no more to do. You have contained perfect enlightenment. You've also protected yourself from attaching to it. There could be no more to do to that. But if you think that, that's the final illness, and there's no cure for it. Is that doubt? That question, is that doubt? Well, let's think about that. But those are the next two. But there's still wonderful verses, these verses are great.

[82:10]

So this is a fatal illness, there's no cure for it? That's right, there's no cure for it. So that's the how do you cure a mortal death, the last part. How do you cure a mortal illness, or what do you do about an incurable disease? He just died. He just died?

[82:38]

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