A question mark on one side there, you know, like, don't brag, and on one side your conduct can come from rules or principles, the other side it can come from a question mark. And I remember a while ago I was at Green Gulch and one of the monks there said to me something about, well, how do you know? And I said, I don't think it's a matter of knowing, it's more of a matter of certainty. I think people become certain and go beyond doubt, but they don't know. And as a matter of fact, if your practice depends on knowing, you still may have doubt when your knowing goes away, so it's more a matter of certainty. And he said, certainty about what? And I said, that's right. So, a question mark could also be put as what? For your conduct to come from what? It's more like your conduct comes from Buddhist mind rather than coming from knowing something.

[01:08]

But again, Buddhist knowledge is not conscious knowledge, it's knowing, but not like subject-object knowing. So, excuse me, but would you like to have just kind of like a free-for-all, whatever kind of things you want to bring up about anything that we've been practicing with this practice period that you'd like to clarify together with your sangha-mates? I have a question. Looking back over the last couple of weeks, particularly regarding the stories of the Chan Masters and their disciples becoming enlightened, it seems like, and then connecting that with

[02:10]

vows, that in this particular case, it sounds like there's a lot of emphasis, or a dramatic emphasis on something we don't usually talk about, which is enlightenment. And my question is, does Zen actually depend on what is called an enlightened state? Is there such a thing as a successful Zen student, and is that successful Zen student enlightened? And if so, for all the stories of those who were enlightened, how about the 25 million others who never felt that they received ink or validation from their teacher? In other words, it's a question about salvation, or I guess you'd say it's a soteriological question. Well, we have some people here who could answer that question.

[03:18]

What do you say? It's a good question, isn't it? It's one we're all concerned with. Well put. Sabuddhi. So, what do you think, folks? Any feelings about this, or responses? Well, then I'd have to be enlightened to answer that. No, I'm not. No. Well, I guess my first response is, I hope. I mean, I don't know that I identify myself as a Zen student completely. That doesn't really necessarily sum up Daniel Green any more than Daniel Green does. But I hope, I mean, what I feel is that I hope that sort of successfully being such

[04:31]

a person doesn't depend on, you know, anything in particular that I don't already, I'm not already sort of receiving or, you know, just kind of, you know, I hope that it doesn't depend on something really particular like, you know, whatever it is that they talk about in those stories. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what it is about those stories that I like. I like those stories, and they give me some kind of sense of certainty, or the possibility of certainty in a way. But to, I hope I don't, no, I don't have to wait until something like that happens to

[05:33]

me before, I don't know, before I feel like I'm doing the right thing or being successful, you know, or something like that. It seems kind of like it would be a miserable situation to be in. I mean, I guess I am kind of in a miserable situation. But anyway, you know, I don't want to compound my misery by sort of pining for being like those guys. They're already, it's quite an action. I also wondered about, I was wondering, I was going to say the question about, you know,

[06:47]

is there some kind of thing that we have to get or some experience we have to have? Isn't it always possible to imagine that you're lacking something? It seems like in any situation you can always imagine that it's something lacking. You can, you can. Yes, me. But people who aren't filled with Dharma can't. You know what I mean? Yeah, they think it got it all. So, because you're filled with Dharma, you can imagine lacking something. So enlightened people feel like something's lacking. Can you finish what you were going to say? It's just a kind of general feeling. Daniel wants Pam to finish just a second. I'll take your permission. No. She's not finished yet.

[07:56]

Anyway, I had a similar question that I asked at the end of the day. But my feeling about it was more like, you know, I responded to something that was like a messy sheet about, you know, why don't people come and ask me questions like those questions? And my response to that was, I hear people asking those questions all the time. I hear responses to those questions all the time. Not just from one of us and a teacher, but among each other as well. You know, we have these nice stories, and there's something really unique about what's going on. At the same time, it seems to me that there's a... I don't know. One of the ways I think about it is that enlightenment is like this thing that happens. It doesn't just happen one time. You wake up little by little, a lot. Usually, for me anyway, it either happens without looking at the trees, or dialogue.

[09:03]

Or sometimes there's some dialogue and it just kind of goes from there. Those times are really the best. Anyway, that's more the way I think about it. They're like us. You can see what we're doing as what they're doing. And when I wonder about it, I'm like, well, yeah, right, but also we're different, which is also true. There's a way that I can think that we're different that makes me anxious. And there's a way that I can feel like, yes, we're the same, yes, we're different, but it just seems a little odd. Can I just maybe rephrase the question a little bit and focus in on it? What I hear in these stories, or in the tradition, is that the student's mind and the teacher's mind become the same mind. And the teacher validates the student in some sense.

[10:07]

My question is, if that coming together, it sounds to me like this is a very unique, well, it's a unique experience between two people, that I have an understanding and your mind and mine come together and we understand each other at that moment. But I don't hear that happening with everybody. I mean, maybe these are just archetypal stories about something that is our human condition. That's fine, it's an ideal. But I'm saying, is this not just idealistic? Is this an actual experience that the teacher validates in the student and passes on their lineage through that particular person? I mean, they did pass it on to certain people. Definitely, among all the maybe hundreds of disciples, some of them had only one or two seem to have this one mind. One of the things that came up in one of the last stories that you talked about

[11:08]

was this thing about how the student may have an awakening. And then after that, there's these years of devotion of continuing the practice. And I thought that they should console me that it's not just about just one zing, which various people seem to have in their communities, but there's a whole lot of other stuff involved in that decision to pass on the lineage, for example. Yes? Stuart? Actually, though, it seems that the stories are not just... The stories aren't just of a student waking up and the teacher validating the student. It also seems like often the stories are the student validating the teacher. And it isn't that the student achieves the teacher's mind,

[12:09]

but that together they come to a point of agreement. And that seems to happen. That seems to happen a lot between people. Very often we get close and we miss each other, and then every once in a while with various people we come to one mind. And that can happen with the teacher, too. These stories and the stories about the lineage succession are remarkable stories. People have all different abilities, so we're reading often about the most remarkable of the teacher's students. Perhaps the one who seemed to the teacher most likely to be able to continue a lineage, a teaching lineage,

[13:11]

but not necessarily the only one whom the teacher ever woke up with. As a matter of fact, there are many stories about there being lots of people in that position and one being selected as being the particular person about whom the teacher seemed to feel, well, this is the person who will continue the lineage of awakening, this lineage of meeting, or will be able to transmit this kind of thing to other people. It seems like a lot of it is a question of aptitude for helping other people. It isn't just an awakening experience. And I think that Pam picked up on something very important. There's a very dramatic event that happens for many people, I think, where suddenly everything becomes clear. But when we read these stories, for most of them, they don't just walk off the street and suddenly the teacher agrees with them or validates them.

[14:14]

They walk in and the teacher says, Yeah, you're it. Clang. You know, these are people who have devoted, already devoted, frequently, not always, but frequently, devoted lifetimes to studying Buddhadharma and to developing and cultivating the capacity to have these kinds of special experiences. And it seems that it isn't all just that moment. There is all of that cultivation, all of that dedication, and all of that work goes into it. And then, of course, there are a few exceptional people who seem to bypass the years of cultivation and to come to it very quickly. But there are always, in every kind of situation, there are people who just can do that, who don't have to go through the ordinary steps. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that, that that's all part of it. So we read about people who have already really dedicated themselves and then they have certain special experiences

[15:15]

and develop special relationships with teachers and then go on to cultivate with their teachers and then often for many years, for decades, without their teachers, on their own, or in conjunction with other people, or visit other teachers and continue to learn. So I don't think we should be fooled by those stories. I think it's very important not to pass them over and not to miss the importance of them. But I think it's a terrible thing to think that, oh, that moment, that's the thing, that's the story. I think you shifted a little bit. You talked also about Case 55, the record where initially the student didn't get it. And it seems to me that that case is about being caught by something. And maybe in some sense you're getting something, some reason why something gets you,

[16:20]

like the solar plexus, like the stomach, or something that troubles you, and you don't understand it, and it's not like, oh, it's not, oh. And that's, I think, a much more common experience, getting caught by things. But that's something that it's about also. I had a question about it. I left, so I didn't stay that long, but I had the impression when you were talking about it that you said at one point something like that the student's anger was appropriate. And the inference I drew was that it was appropriate for him to hit the teacher, and in some sense that the teacher had been doing something, sorry to say provocative, but what I meant was wrong,

[17:22]

and provocative isn't necessarily wrong at all. So something wrong. And it seems to me that the teacher is being, in that story, is being tremendously compassionate. And getting caught seems entirely appropriate, and fine, and wonderful. But I don't know about hitting the teacher, I mentioned one of my commentary sessions, I liked the teacher. And that didn't seem so great. I always think of those things as exaggerations or attention-getting devices. I'd just like to hear your response. I wonder why my heart's beating so fast right now. I think I'm feeling... I felt pain when you said... You said something... It's very close to my heart. I know, but I felt that you projected on me

[18:24]

that I said there's something wrong with the teacher. I felt you said that. That really hurt me, for you to project that on me. I'm sorry? That really hurts me, for you to project on me that I said something was wrong with that teacher. I'm sorry, I don't remember. I'm sorry. Well, you projected on me something I didn't say. You said I said something wrong with the teacher. I did not. I said that was the inference that I drew. Yeah, well. It really hurts that you'd say I'd say something that I would criticize. Arksanga. I'm lost here. Okay, well, maybe people can help you. That's what I felt you said I did. You drew an inference that I criticized the Sangha, that I criticized one of our Masters. He's our uncle, you know, that guy. And you said I said he did something wrong. That's the inference you drew

[19:27]

from what I said. Right, and that's why... And that really hurts me, for you to infer from me and say to me and everybody else that I criticized one of our ancestors for doing something wrong. Well. That's how I feel. Well, all right, but it feels kind of beyond what I was saying. So that's what I feel. Now I feel like I'm telling you that I'm hurt. I'm telling you that I'm hurt and you're saying that my hurt is beyond what you were saying. I don't feel you're recognizing my hurt. That you're trying to say, well, really you didn't mean it, therefore it's... No, it isn't that I didn't... I was trying to kind of reality check with you or check with you if I was right or wrong in the inference that I drew. And I was meant to be asking you,

[20:32]

not accusing you. So that's what feels to me sort of out of proportion to something because I really felt pretty clear about asking. And the sense I'm getting from you, and I feel very bad about it, but the sense I'm getting from you is to feel you on the other side. Okay. Okay. I'd like to add just a quick note to what Stuart said. It's that in the early stories of the monastery becoming great and enlightened, they often have these strange childhoods where they talk about their insistence when they just eat one meal when they make this insistence and so forth and ask to go to monasteries when they're 40 years old. You know, where is that coming from? In Tibetan tradition, they honor the fact that people like this have to practice for many, many lifetimes

[21:35]

to build up to this stage. So I think, you know, these people have done that. And if they come into this life already prepared to dedicate 20 or 40 years of their life to rigorous practice to achieve complete enlightenment and have everything kind of set up from previous lifetimes and purify a lot of karma, they probably can directly revert to a favorable teacher in a monastery, a favorable parent, and then, you know, they just do it. And it's so difficult, but they do it. So I think maybe all of us can do it, but those people I think are especially primed to realize Buddhism, in their lifetime when they head off to a monastery when they're six years old. Now I think we should be discouraged. Because we can do it, too. I actually am interested in continuing Mary's question.

[22:40]

In fact, I'm interested in really continuing Mary's question. She and I were talking about the case earlier, so I may be understanding where she's coming from from what we were talking about. I was confused during that same meeting when I can't even remember what I was questioning you about, but you said something back to me about the student hitting the teacher, and did I think that came from inappropriate anger? I think that was what it was. And I was just confused, actually, when you asked me that, because I realized that sort of the case had gone over my head and the interaction had gone over my head, and it was like, wait a minute, who did what to who? And what was the hitting showing? And for me, often what happens with these things

[23:44]

is the interaction is so... Number one, I trust that the interaction must have been a terrific one or we wouldn't be hearing it. So when I make snide comments or get critical, it's mostly saying, I don't understand. And so in this case, it's like, was the teacher saying something provocative? Was the student... Why was the student hitting the teacher? Was the student hitting the teacher because he was mad at the teacher? Or was this a kind of a neat coming to you? It's like I lose it and lost it, and I sense in some of what Mary is asking, not my same question, but something about what is it you feel happened in that story as they came together in this bloodiness? I felt that that was a story about two people meeting and how one person reached out to the other one and the other one pulled him closer and they kept pulling each other closer together until they met.

[24:47]

That's what I thought the story was about. And the hitting was a response of that meeting. Not a response of the meeting. It was going towards the meeting. It was going towards the meeting. In that the student was showing honest to God but he was feeling at that second that no one was harmed? Yes, but also that it wasn't just that, but what he was feeling was entirely directed towards meeting his teacher and settling the Dharma with him. And did he care that much? He cared that much. And in fact, I think the story is there because not only did he care that much, but he cared in a way that was on the mark for Dharma. That he drew his teacher into the nexus where they would meet. I think that's what the story says. And his anger was part of that process.

[25:48]

And his teacher drew it equally. It was always one practice. The teacher being hit and the student is one thing. The student asking and the teacher saying no is one thing. I saw one thing, one thing, one thing, getting closer and closer to settling the matter. His teacher died before it happened and then he did the same thing with another teacher and when he settled it with the second teacher, then he paid his respects to his first teacher. I see it the same story as the one Pam's talking about. These stories are about people working together, nobody blaming anybody. They're always doing one thing together, getting closer and closer. That's what I saw in that story. And so in that case, I saw that as Buddha's anger at driving teacher and student to this meeting place. That's what I saw.

[26:51]

It's often very hard for me when I read these stories because of the form of them I get, or because of something in me that doesn't catch it, to even catch what's going on at all. It's like, it's as though it's a narrative. You know, you've heard Saul say this, I don't know. But at any rate, it's like I'm lost. I'm totally lost. And everybody sort of smiles and, you know, this is this wonderful event that's happened and until it's totally explained to me, I'm sort of sitting there saying, he said this, and this seems okay, and then he came, and it may take two classes' worth of talking about a koan before I'm even sort of in the ballpark of what went on. And then I can begin to get to this next stage of perhaps understanding how this is an example of people coming together. So I generally feel very stupid. I can't even remember this story. You're probably in the best shape, Stuart.

[27:59]

Yes, the teacher and the student went and paid a condolence call. They walked in, the student grabbed on the coffin and he said, dead or alive. And the teacher, I don't remember the entire exchange, but it came down to the teacher said, I won't say. And they walked back. I won't say. And the student continued to ask him about it. He said, I won't say. They were walking back. If you don't tell me, I'm going to smack you. And the teacher said, I won't even make it. He said, I won't say, I won't say. And he hit him. Apparently he hit him really hard. At that point, it didn't say, Rev didn't say then, but the teacher, after the teacher picked himself up and pulled himself back together, said, I don't think you should come back to the monastery right now because I think that the Sangha is really angry with you. So he took off for a while. I mean, he must have really hit him.

[29:02]

And then later, after his teacher died, he visited somebody else and talked to them about it. And he said, dead or alive. He said, I won't say, I won't say. I can see that as a demonstration of the student's strength or determination to arrive at a resolution. And if he had that understanding of the teacher that was located there, he would, I think, try to show the teacher that no matter what, he really wanted to get an answer. Well, I also don't forget about the teacher. The teacher, I think the teacher was asking the student to show to show something. So he showed that. Something like that. One of the things that interests me about the case is that it seems like it's not just an act of violence, but it seems like it's a commission of unpardonable sins, shedding the blood of the Buddha. And it's really...

[30:08]

At that level, I sort of don't get it. It's sort of the same... In a way, it's kind of in the realm of action, of interaction, for me, like Nitron cutting the cat. You know, we can talk about it, but... This is really hard to get. What? Is that why he says don't come back, because people think that way? I think so. And he won't be able to defend them and say, oh, it's okay. And he won't be able to say, I told him to do it. Or, you know... So the implication is it's okay with the teacher, but it's not... Well, it's not exactly okay with the teacher either. When a student beats up on a teacher, the teacher doesn't necessarily like it. He was taken by surprise, in some sense.

[31:13]

By that, he wasn't like... Yeah. Teachers also know that students have to disagree with them in order to mature. But they have to actually disagree, not sort of kind of like just... Well, we know you have to disagree, so disagree. They actually disagree, and it actually hurts the teacher. And if it doesn't, the student knows that the teacher doesn't really disagree. The student has to draw blood out of the... The student has to kill the teacher. And the teacher doesn't like it. And the teacher knows that this has to happen. And the student only kills the teacher because it's the teacher. If it's really a student. That's the only reason why they're killing this person, is because this is the person that they have to kill. And if they kill this person, they've also got to make sure this person lives, because they need this person in order to confirm their murder. Which is their succession.

[32:14]

And the teacher doesn't like it. And is not orchestrating it. But the teacher has to stand her ground, too. And get killed for it. And survive. So that after the teacher's been killed, the teacher can say, Okay. You're my successor. I never thought it would come to this. But I've got to admit it. You killed me and kept me alive. Whatever you say, I'll sign anything. What? No. Those are succession stories. When I told. But the other stories are stories where they met. But usually for the first time.

[33:19]

Most of the stories are first meetings. First full meetings. Then later the student kills the teacher. Like Linji's blind ass. Yeah, like Linji's blind ass. Well, I think we had a real dense story going on here. A present-day dense story. Between Kenton and Mary. And I see, you know, someone asked a question. And someone got hurt. Someone responded. I don't feel like it's really finished. I don't need a comment. I don't quite know what to say. Did you ever feel like you were constantly being pushed?

[34:25]

And frightened? I felt like my question got lost. What did you do? What? Because it was hurting you to do that. So I let it drop. And I felt like you took. You made it personal. You took it as a personal attack. Then I felt like I couldn't talk about it anymore.

[35:26]

What do you mean by a personal attack? I'm not going to ask you anymore. Just a second. I don't want to ask you what you mean by a personal attack because my heart's starting to beat fast again because I don't want to know any more attributions from you about me. Okay. I'll just tell you. I did not take it as a personal attack. I did not think that you were personally trying to attack me personally. What I got hurt by was an attribution by you unto me. And again, you were starting to attribute things to me again. And I started again to be hurt. I do not want people to attribute anything to me. If you do that, I'm going to be hurt. And big time hurt. Sometimes. I could treat you in such a way to say, Mary cannot hear from me. You're asking me a question. And I can say, okay, don't tell her what's going on with you. Don't tell her your heart's beating.

[36:28]

Don't tell her that she inferred something from you without asking you about it. Don't tell her that. Pretend as though this is not going on and get through the conversation to the other side because if you tell her what's going on, she is going to have a hard time because it's a strong reaction you're having here. So lie about it, Reb. Because people can't take you because you're a human being. I know you don't. And I didn't. But it was hard for you. It was hard for you to take the actual person over here. Laughter But I did not think at all that you were trying to hurt me or attack me. But what I did think you did was attribute something to me and whenever anybody attributes something to me, nothing hurts me more than that. The thing that hurts me most is when people misunderstand me. It hurts me less if somebody just tries to run over and punch me and attack me. That I feel like, you know, I'm used to that.

[37:29]

But one thing that really hurts me is when somebody tells me how I am is the way they interpreted me. And that's why I didn't want... I was going to ask you what you meant by attack. Did you think that I meant by that that you were trying to personally hurt me? But then as you started to explain, you started to slip into this thing about talking the way I was again and I started to... I don't want that. If you want to know about me, please, I welcome that. I want you to... If you're interested in me and trying to find out about me, ask me. That doesn't hurt me. That's scary. But it doesn't hurt my feelings for you to try to find out who I am, but for you to start putting out theories about what I might have meant or what your inferences from what I say were before even talking to me about it. Start with the inference. That really hurts. But how else do you test an inference? You have to ask the person whether you were right or not. How about saying, did you

[38:30]

mean to say that the teacher made a mistake? Well, to me, that's when I say, I inferred this was I... Did I understand you right? It's the same thing that you mean to say. There's an inference... Okay, what you... ...that you draw from what's an assumption... Okay. ...that what somebody said... Okay, you could start by saying by... If you want to, you could start by making a confession. You could say, I have wronged you already. I have made an assumption about you without asking. If you want to, you could do that. That's... I think that's what I would do if I really wanted to be clean. I would say, without talking to you, I went ahead and... and made an assumption about what you were thinking. I read your mind. And I'm sorry I did that. Then you could say, now that I've admitted that and said I'm sorry for doing this to you, now I'd like to find out where you're at. That's what you could have done. And that's what I sometimes do with people. It's not easy, but... I don't say this just to you.

[39:32]

I say it to anybody. I say, please, do never assume anything about me. Never assume I'm enlightened. Never assume I'm deluded. Never assume I'm this. Never assume I'm that. Please don't ever assume anything about me. I'll try not to assume anything about you. Rather, I will try to ask... Be interested enough, first of all, before thinking anything, before coming to any conclusions, ask the person. And... I know that's hard. And we don't do it all the time. But that's what I'd like to ask of everybody. And I would commit myself to do that. And I would probably fail a lot. But when I fail, I feel what I've done is read the person's mind without... Just forget that mind reading and just find out about people. That's what I'm saying to myself. I agree with you. That's more research. Yeah, I'm just talking about... This example just feels sort of like...

[40:32]

I think there's something else going on. What? This is enough for me. I got hurt for what I... for you telling me where I was at. And that's... that's... To me, that's like... that's the main problem I have with people. It's them telling me who I am. That is the main problem I have in life. Yeah. The thing that hurts me absolutely the most is not to be recognized. And not only that, but to be told that the thing that my lack of... that me not me is me. That really hurts. So I don't... Maybe something else is going on, but, you know, it can't... For me, it can't get any worse than this. You can add a bunch of other things onto it if you want to, but this really hurts. And, you know, you're not doing it anymore now, so I'm recovering. How about you, Mary?

[41:33]

What really hurts for you? Are you recovering? No. I'm sorry if my reaction frightened you and, you know, knocked you off balance. Thanks. This happened to me yesterday in front of five people and we talked about it. It was really great. I encourage you to keep talking as you can. In front of people, it's very difficult. It seemed like 35 at first. Yeah. It's up to you

[42:41]

and I'm not pushing you, but I can tell you that if I walk out of this room on two feet, I'd like you to be able to walk out on two feet. I can help you with that, but I don't have to. No, you don't have to. You can have to. I'm just saying that I would like you to be able to walk out in similar condition to me. But if you don't want to, right now, in this group, go any further with this, that's your decision and I can understand that you maybe don't feel safe now. Listen, it's not part of it. It's just things that... It's just part of it. I don't know how you're going to talk about it. I don't either.

[43:43]

But this seems like the safest possible situation. You've got 35 people to take care of you and they're not going to let you get hurt. But again, I'm not trying to talk you into this, really. I'm just saying that I think you've got a lot of friends here who will... If you don't want to do it, that's a different matter, but I think you're... If you and I talk alone, it might work out, but then they don't get to see us work it out. They probably would love to see us work it out. Huh? What? Okay. Yeah, well, see, now you talking like that, they can see we just worked it out a little bit. I want them to see that we're going to walk out here and we're going to be able to work it out. So if we just tell them... Okay. That's fine.

[44:48]

I feel okay with that. I feel okay with what you said. And... I think they do too. Maybe. Do you feel okay? Yeah. But until we told them that, they probably thought, well, geez, is Mary going to be able to, you know, stand up to that orger? You know? I think you can. Yeah. You do. You do. And you know, and you can... Yeah. But it was a lesson for all of us. Excuse me. I meant that we were doing something. Well, that's what happens in these... I feel like Rev and I can do this thing. Right, yeah. Okay, fine. We can do this dance. We've done... We've danced similar ones before. Thank you.

[45:57]

And I think that I feel like I feel myself like this thing that didn't really happen between me and Mary relates to it. I think that I think that I think that we human beings must keep working towards a meeting. And this... To me, those stories... If there were some other stories to talk about besides those about those guys, I would have told other stories because I don't like it when they end with Annie woke up. But I'm not going to protect you people from that and say, well, you know, and then they live happily ever after and they sort of... That's what it says. So I told you that that happened. But for me, the reason why I read the stories is because I want you to know about our relatives. We just have these strange relatives who got awakened in these stories. We have these awakened relatives. You know? So the thing I like about the stories, though, is I like the way they related to each other before and after that.

[47:03]

I think my question comes down to we generally pass on stories that I call success stories. Yeah. And I read Vonnegut quotation lately and he said, you know, in universities we teach everybody to try to be successful in the world when in fact most people in terms of their experience are going to feel like they're terrible failures in life. We have to teach people how to fail. Right. And in some ways that's what these stories are also about. Yeah. That's why I started this practice period with Yun Yan. Yeah. Now that, among all the people in our lineage, among all of our great ancestors, he was the most unsuccessful. He studied with Ba… I can relate to that. 20 years! From 14 to 34 he was sitting next to the greatest Zen master of all time, practically, and none of those stories happened. Then he goes to study with Yao Shan and you know, and Yao Shan says, Yao Shan says, you studied with Bai Zhan for 20 years

[48:04]

and you have this kind of understanding? You know? Yun Yan. Cloudy Cliff. Cloudy Cliff. Hungan Donjo Daiyo Sho. It wasn't even a mountain. Tozan Ryokai. Tozan's teacher. He did just fine but he was a real flub-a-dub for quite a long time. You know? And I think he shows so beautifully how to fail. How did he fail? What did he do when he failed? He got up off the ground and kept going. He wouldn't be in the lineage then. Yeah, that's the point of my question. What about

[49:08]

I mean, my I really admire these people and God, I'd love to be like them but my heart goes out to all those who in a sense never got it and the teacher said I don't know what the teacher said because we never will find out. Don't you think the teacher's heart went out to him too? The teacher's heart is going out to him too. And the teacher would like them to you know pull it together because the teacher gets a kick out of it too. You know? But the lineage that's why I say is the lineage alive or dead? We got a lineage is it alive or dead? It's a problem. It's a question. But still go ahead. Well, it's frankly a question of what salvation is in Buddhism. And salvation salvation Salvation is not that lineage.

[50:11]

That lineage is not salvation. Well, it's certainly so theological. That lineage is an institutional thing. But is it the institution is the manifestation of the passing on of the Buddha mind? Is it not? Yes. It's a manifestation of it. But the passing on of Buddha mind happens all over the place. And many many other people are making it happen at that time. Not just those two guys. They're playing a role in the institutional history to so people can find you know an address. And the people who play that role are a certain type of person like Mark said. Certain people play that role. It's not all that nice a role. But some people have to play it. It has benefits and one of the main benefits of it is those relationships. You get stories written about you. You have these nice relationships. That's a real benefit of it. But it has other problems. Namely, you can get

[51:12]

caught by it. And there's all kinds of protection and feedback to help you getting caught. But at that time the enlightenment that happened between those two people was not just between those two people. If it was, it would be irrelevant. It spread throughout the entire society. And many people were supporting them to be able to do that. Then it's everyone's enlightenment. Yes. And if it isn't, why would we be here? Right. You know? And if Tassajara doesn't have if we don't take care of the gardens and if like tonight's dinner was good but last night's dinner was really good. If we you know if we don't do things well here you know who gives a shit if we've got a nice lineage to come down to this place. If we don't love each other it's a lousy lineage. Is this lineage alive? We make it alive. Whether all of you people are going to be Dharma successors and get your name on the chart, I don't know. But if if this lineage gets transmitted to another generation and another generation

[52:13]

and Tassajara doesn't have helpful people in it, inspiring people in it, whether regardless of what role they play, it doesn't matter. It means nothing. It's stupid. These monks would be stupid monks if people don't appreciate them and aren't inspired by them and don't practice as a result. That's what Buddhism is about. It's not about this lineage. It's not the enlightenment isn't in the lineage. Just like the enlightenment is not in the scriptures. But it's not outside the scriptures or inside the scriptures. But these stories that they told should be the stories that we like to live. So we who whether we're in the lineage officially or not, do we like those stories? Well, most of us do. And we try to live that way with each other. Namely, pay attention to each other, be devoted to each other, you know, ask each other questions about what's going on, sometimes wake up. After waking up, we keep hanging out together, going for strolls in the garden,

[53:14]

carrying each other's shoes, you know, having fights, having fights, having fights because sometimes when you're close to somebody you have to yell at them because that's what your relationship requires. And it's a two-way street and it's a one-event event. And those stories just unfortunately ended with, you know, enlightenment. But there's many stories that don't. And Kesar Jainji is one of these guys who applies it into telling those stories. You know, it's his thing. Dogen didn't do it that way. Kesar definitely got a shtick there, right? He wants to say, See, Soto really isn't different from Rinzai because look, all of the Soto people have these enlightenment experiences. He's saying that over and over again trying to make points. These two lineages, you know, of what is called Nangaku and Chingsa, you know, Seigan and Nangaku, those two lineages are really one. See, they come together

[54:14]

in Yaoshan, they come together in Yunyan, they come together, you know, now in me actually, he says. So, he chooses those stories which in fact probably, you know, are good stories. But fortunately, he tells other stories too for us to see the path. The path is more important than these experiences that seem to be experiences. Because the path we all can join regardless of our role. But we all, I think, need to work for that kind of meeting. And I think it's not some special thing between them, it's a human, you know, drive. One big vehicle they're driving too. Yeah. But I think it's very, I really appreciate you bringing up this question

[55:15]

because, you know, we hear these stories, we should, you know, we should consider the complications for our practice in this. And, you know, these stories can be great stories and then there's a shadow side of the story of, well, what about us? Are those stories about somebody else? Part of my question comes from reading somewhat about Hsin Buddhism and the Pure Land and the, as you know, the Tariki, the idea that there's no way in, as many of you know, from this point of view, that the individual through self-power can become, quote, enlightened. That only through the grace, it's very much like the Christian idea of grace, by just simply repeating the name of Buddha over and over, possibly you will reach the state of Buddha-mind or you will realize No, you said it wrong. You said it by, you just switched it back to Tariki just then. Yeah, I did. Yeah. You don't even have to do the Nembutsu. But people who are

[56:17]

that stupid to be hitting a Mokugyo saying Nembutsu, they're very susceptible to being helped because they can be helped by practically anything. But it's not by your power, it's actually by exhausting, it's actually by exhausting all your human effort you finally realize, well, this is not going to do anything and then somebody says, Oh, you got it, huh? It's true they arrive at the same point. They arrive at the same point. When you exhaust personal effort, is a place, when you use all your effort up and you're completely exhausted, then somebody says, Hi. And what are they saying hi to? They're saying, to you, the way you always were. But even in Shin Buddhism, some of these people exhaust themselves You know, we have energy, so we use it and one of the ways we use it is in relationship. Sometimes we think,

[57:20]

sometimes I think, geez, do I have enough energy for this relationship but actually my energy is supposed to be totally exhausted in the relationship so I should use it. Yes? I was wondering if part of the question of your question is do you need a teacher? Is that part of your question? No. Oh. Is that part of your question? Cool. That's my question and not another question. You said shadow and made this come up for me that in the story that we're talking about when we get the teacher we can project our own stuff into that and rather than look at the personal dynamic that went on which we can never know really and we can also take the present tonight's present then story that didn't happen between Mary and Tenshin and we can also project our own stuff you know, like

[58:20]

what happened with Pam and Tenshin so I think we have to be real careful that when we observe this this is their dynamic they have a history together and we watch what our stuff comes up and just own it as our stuff. Right. And project away wholeheartedly because that's what we're going to do anyway, right? They're valid and unavoidable. Can be cashed in at your local monastery. Yeah, I'll throw that in the pot. Do you mean the teacher? The part of your question that I was taking off from was something about the verification of enlightenment from the teacher. I was speaking in terms of linear. Well so I'll just ask the question

[59:21]

from the teacher. Does one need a teacher? What do you mean by teacher? A person who is a teacher in the institution of Buddhism. I don't mean a teacher like a rock or a stream. I mean a teacher like you sitting there. You don't need a teacher in an institution, no. That's what you mean by teacher. You do not need it. You are free of that need. According to me anyway. And I'm in a position to do it because I'm in the institution. Maybe some other people in the institution wouldn't agree with me though but I would say that I disagree with them. But change your definition of teacher and I might say yes. I would say yes too if you say

[60:22]

do I need somebody to respect? And I would say yes you do. Do I need somebody who I think is over there? Who I actually think exists. And I actually think the way they exist is something that has the ability to recognize me. Do I think there is somebody over there who has a mind that can recognize something? And I respect them and I would like them to recognize me. Do you need such a person? Yes. We do need such a person. It kind of goes back to what Diagonal was just talking about. It sure does. By over there you mean somebody over there. Somebody other. That's not you. That's not yourself. So Zen practice is basically you completely exhaust yourself in your being you. You can hear Mokugyo that would exhaust you being you. You can sit Zazen in a meaningless effort and that will exhaust you. Those are ways to exhaust yourself. And when you exhaust yourself

[61:23]

when you get to that point eventually you'll feel completely you know you'll forget the whole thing and be released from yourself. In other words you'll find out what you really are which is a thing that's released from its own idea of itself. That's what a real human being is. However you still need a relationship. You still need to have somebody who you respect who says Hey I already have that I'm like that too. They don't give you anything you know that you don't already have but Do you need that all the way along while you're hitting the Mokugyo? No. No. Do you need that for the afterwards? You need it you need it well you need it you definitely need it afterwards you may need it along the way because you may need somebody to say keep hitting the Mokugyo. Someone who sees someone who really loves you and wants you to get to the point of completely being yourself and who says keep just keep just keep going you'll get you'll get to yourself eventually and then when you get there come and tell me about it

[62:23]

and you can tell me about how it is all the way along too that's fine no problem that's fun too. Matter of fact a lot of students say I think I got there I think I became myself and because and I'm happy and everything and then the teacher says Oh really? So like that story one of the stories in the book of Serenity is a monk goes to visit another monk this isn't even necessarily his teacher but I guess somebody he respects and he goes to see him and he says well how are you Fred? and he says oh god I'm sick and he says oh you're really sick and he says oh I'm sick and he woke up he knew he was sick but when the other person said oh you're really sick then he understood what sick means we need that it's just kind of like it's something that's built into us from the way we grow up as human beings we have to sort of we can't avoid our psychology exactly

[63:37]

right exactly now you can have a big sense of yourself you can have a big time sense of yourself and you can get really intimate with that and you can drop it all by yourself probably you need some instruction in order to sort of persevere in that way because it's fairly unlikely that you would stay with the bone you know that diligently that tenaciously unless somebody said you know it's really important that you really become completely Michael Dow and if you believe that and you and someone you respected or a whole bunch of people you respected told you that and supported you and encouraged you you might do it and that would be good in itself that's very good that's called Zazen but then to finish it off you need this you need this relationship which I agree human beings need this yes there are

[64:41]

and some human beings are very enlightened who don't have this they're called Pratyekabuddhas they're very enlightened they have a very good they're liberated from personal suffering now they may have had their background may be and they haven't even had a teacher at all nobody even told them what to do and then Arhats are also like that to some extent but a Buddha a Bodhisattva has a relationship Buddhas have relationships so you can be very enlightened have a very deep sense of yourself but I still say you're not really a full human being until you have this a relationship it says in the Lotus the Zen school following the Lotus it just says only two Buddhas can really understand reality you can't do it by yourself people say what about Shakyamuni Buddha and the Mahayana story is he studied thoroughly with innumerable Buddhas through innumerable lifetimes I guess the question I would have would be the difference

[65:42]

between the kind of relationship that you have with a Buddhist teacher and the kind of relationship you have with a friend a lover is there a difference in this kind of relationship there might be but it would be possible under some circumstances for a friend to help you who is not a Buddhist so called Buddhist does a friend come visit you when you're sick and you say I'm sick and the friend could say Michael you're sick and that could be enough confirmation for you from a friend however practically speaking you know you might not get to that point without a teacher and often times the person who's encouraged you or the people could be several people who have encouraged you to get to the point where when you get sick you know you're sick completely those people who helped you and who you believed all the way when they come and say you're sick

[66:42]

it often is a little bit more helpful but it could be somebody else it depends on your eyes if you look at the person and you say this is somebody who if they recognize me this is going to be a big deal to me then you make them into a teacher but that means you really respect them that means you say if this person recognized me that's going to make a big difference to me you could do that with everybody here possibly so all these monks could help you when you've done your homework and that therefore you could make these people into your teachers even though they weren't sort of like even though they didn't have their papers so to speak and the strange thing is if he woke up because of what one of you people did suddenly you people would be in the lineage too except it would be of course a new lineage based on his enlightenment it would be a new religion then and then and then like

[67:46]

if David woke him up this would be a new religion and the person who woke him up happened to be a Buddhist priest and then there would be a lineage going back through David seven generations causing Michael that's what happened with Buddha excuse me did you see Marianne Hoss's hand I did yeah you did? I did you were going like this oh yes then you took it down we were in the middle of Susan and then Michael got in there and I didn't go back to Marianne Hoss yes please I just wanted to mention how I felt about going and I feel like there is a huge web of conditions in other words participating in this particular situation and I feel like I'm getting only random threads and

[68:47]

I'm asked to recreate the whole web and it's I don't know I feel like there's a lot missing there's a lot of assumptions and I don't know I feel very lost when I try to recreate that computer application and I feel more comfortable when I just consider each fact and you know well okay that's that's just reality and you know I'm trying to recreate the whole thing it's like I don't know if someone was going to tell you about a movie and just said well there are only these factors

[69:47]

and you know they have this and oh it was a it's part of the movie you know and then he tells me the dialogue and you have to make up the whole movie so how do I do this? so feel lost but if you do this other way you don't feel so lost is that right? if you don't try to do that you don't feel so lost then yeah I think that's better way for you I would I would support that definitely this other way I think is kind of like not appropriate for you maybe somebody that works for but they have a different brain maybe or different thinking style maybe they feel comfortable doing that but your way is good for you I think and that's your contribution to the sangha for that approach that works for you

[70:47]

each of us should do the way that works for us rather than sort of like do the way we think we're supposed to do and then sort of like feel like we're you know I don't know what stupid or something like that right? so if you have that's one of the advantages of having several teachers as you can see all these different styles you know if you don't do one style it's not that there's something wrong with you so that's you know that's that's one problem of me kind of leading doing a lot of teaching is that maybe people think that they're supposed to like Zen stories like I do or something or you know but I just sort of that's my kind of a thing for me you know that's one of my I just got hooked on that kind of stuff and I like it but if I was into if I was into music more or or car mechanics more or kitchen more then then I would be able to

[71:47]

you know I would be bringing those examples more and the people who and some people would feel like oh yeah I get that but some intellectual people might feel like jeez I want more philosophical presentation or something like that and they would feel maybe not stupid but or maybe they would feel like stupid emotionally or something like I just don't get it I don't know so I think it's good if you know you can somehow survive with not being in the same style as other people it's it's getting towards I mean it is 830 so yeah one thing I'd like to say I hate to to tidy things up but I really want to tidy things up and one way I would tidy them up is Yun Yan the guy we were just talking about that and Dong and what's his brother's name Da Wu Da Wu was in the story that he's the one that got punched

[72:48]

right Da Wu and Yun Yan this guy who's his brother actually and had a lot of had a had a practice a long time before he had this awakening they Yun Yan was sweeping the ground the dumb guy was sweeping the ground right sweeping the ground means means a human being right sweeping the ground means when we were studying the precepts we saw basically we started to realize that basically as a human being we're we're always violating these precepts sweeping the ground means I'm making subject object means I'm creating a sense of self means I'm disparaging others and praising myself means I don't understand the triple treasure therefore I'm disparaging it it means basically you're breaking all the precepts every second that's called in short sweeping the ground and Da Wu walks along and says you're too busy in other words too busy means

[73:49]

you're breaking all the precepts it's pretty busy right we're always breaking all the precepts on one level on a human level we're always breaking precepts in a way we're not really breaking the precepts though because he says okay but you should know there's one who's not busy there's somebody who's not creating subject object who is not creating a sense of self who's not praising self at the expense of others who's not who understands the triple treasure the one who's not busy there is one like that all the time right while we're sweeping and then Da Wu says oh then there's two moons there's one who's breaking the precepts and there's one who's not breaking the precepts and Yun Yan raises a broom and says which moon is this is this the one who's breaking the precepts or is it the one who's not breaking the precepts is it the busy one or the unbusy one which one is it

[74:49]

is the lineage alive or dead you know same thing well that story I think really wonderful story which moon is this I really like to hear you tell me that story I thought it was made specially for me I think it's really made specially for us those sweethearts Yun Yan and Da Wu they made that story and it's just such a wonderful story I think I find it a nice way to tie together the two levels of the precepts the Buddha's mind's precept level and human level and are they two are there two moons and if so which one is this and Da Wu walked off at that point so I don't know what you're going to do but probably we should go to bed

[75:49]

now, right? or something? I was going to say one short thing really short but just that with me gathering tonight it seems like all of us have our different relationships with you but something just got highlighted tonight that I just also want to say that we're all sitting here together and it's wonderful that we're all together and we have relationships with each other and it's not just each individual person that I'm happy with but I just want to remind you that each person has a special

[76:53]

relationship and with each and we're other and we're all in this time that we're with we're in this time that we're together with each and we're not alone in this time that we're you saw a question, ask from the point of view of practice, something that other people can be included in, you know, and something that could be applied to practice or something practical. No, as opposed to something coming from Mars, you know.

[78:02]

Sometimes people ask these questions that isn't really coming from their practice, it's coming from some way over there, you know, that's not really coming out of your practice with the Sangha that you saw, just straightforward questions about practice rather than kind of like difficult questions or questions to sort of make this you so demonstrate his knowledge of the sutras or ... Well, you know, like if from your practice you want to talk to him about the planets, fine. No, but I mean, if from your practice you want to talk to him about planets, that's fine. You know, if you feel weak and you feel like we would understand what you're talking about, like you know, if you refer to some conversation that you and Thayo had and nobody else was in on, that's kind of nice, but then we won't be able to, you know, there's lots of questions

[79:10]

which we all can join in with and come from your practice, that's just, I think, a nice guideline. And I'm sure everything else you'll do perfectly well. And I'm sure everything else you'll do perfectly well.

[79:21]

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