So this is a new series, a new group of six classes on the book of Serenity, and there's some new people here. I don't know all your names, but some of the names I know. So for the new people, we usually start by saying the names of the people in the class. Part of the reason for doing that is that a big part of this class is just simply, well not just simply, but the class is in some sense just the people in the room. So it's important that you know the names of the people and that they know your name so that you can call upon each other. So, Donna. I'm Donna. Kirk.

[01:01]

Kirk. Now tell me your name is. Irish. Something Irish. Donegan. Donegan. It's Shearing Patricia. Patricia. Shearing. Shearing. That's always been your name. Check out fingers. It used to be before that. Patricia what? Elaine. Patricia Elaine. So this is Patricia. Patricia. And behind Patricia is Marjorie. Marjorie. And behind Marjorie is Stuart. Stuart. To Stuart's immediate left is Kerry. Kerry. And then Barbara. Barbara. Wendy. Wendy. Patricia. Patricia. Patrick. No, no. Excuse me. We don't have Patrick. His name is. Oh, don't tell me. Spencer. Spencer. Next to Spencer is Jordan.

[02:02]

Jordan. Behind Jordan over there is Gunter. Gunter. And I don't know your name. Tia. Tia. Tia. How do you spell it? T-I-A. T-I-A. Okay. And then over on the other side of the stove is Rick. Rick. Next to Rick is Kathy. Kathy. And then your name is. Lynn. Lynn. Lynn. How do you spell it? L-Y-N-N. L-Y-N-N. And then Eva. Eva. And. Kara. Kara. Kara. K-A-R-A. And Miriam. Miriam. And Joan. Joan. Lee. Lee. Barry. Barry. Barry. Martha.

[03:03]

Martha. Gloria. Gloria. Lloyd. Lloyd. Misha. Misha. Jan. Jan. David. David. Okay. Barbara. Barbara. Leslie. Leslie. Leslie's down there on the floor next to Barbara. And up in the chair is Patricia. Patricia. And Stephen Thomas. Stephen Thomas. Daryl. Daryl. And. Tricia. Tricia. Akeem. Akeem. Robin. Robin. Sally. Sally. Handy. Handy. Mark. Mark. Dasha. Dasha.

[04:05]

And your name? Maheen. Maheen. Grace. Grace. Terri. Terri. Terry. Elena. Elena. Mark. Mark. Herb I gave her the buddhist name one time And melissa and marissa And Marcy marcia melissa marissa and marcia Okay And fred fred caroline

[05:13]

Sonia Fu fu martha marianne Susan That's it So Um, so By going in chronological order we are now somewhere around case 20 in this class here, right We did we've been working on case 19 for a while, haven't we? So now case 20 or i'll pass it out anyway So How many of you people are guest students You're a guest and a person

[06:20]

I don't know if we have enough of those to go around If we don't we can make more And maybe the people who don't live here can have First choice and the people who live here can get copies later if you need them You don't live here So I don't know marianne. Your wife is trying to help you

[07:37]

How are we doing did you get one to see are we short How many people I didn't get one that need one So How are we doing now everybody have one that needs one Okay So

[08:47]

I might say some introductory remarks about studying these stories See what can I say? Well, you can study these stories is is something we do here on monday nights and also you can study them throughout the week And beyond the class And These stories are like anything any little piece of Of experience or reality that you pick up in your life You can pick it up at various levels according to your mind And whatever level you pick up it pick it up at you actually are the other levels are there too but you may or may not

[09:48]

You may or may not appreciate these other levels going on So Everything has all these levels going on and these stories Just like everything else Relate to all these different all these different realms of our existence But the difference between these stories and some other stories that we run into is that these these stories have been Related to on all these levels many times Or some stories have yet to be related to on all these levels Some of the stories from our day-to-life may not have been fully developed yet, but these stories These

[10:53]

Maybe I can I can't even say these stories have been fully developed, but they certainly have been developed and there's been People have looked at them from lots of different points of view or over centuries I heard a rumor from someone that there are people who take this class who who don't understand what these stories are about And that some people are Afraid even afraid to speak in class or don't even come to class because they're afraid i'll call on them And they don't want to let me call on them because they don't understand and they're they're kind of Would be embarrassed if I called on them and they wouldn't be able to say what this was about Um, so That's part of what's going on in this class is a lot of people in class are not here because they're afraid to come To class or there's some people in class who are afraid i'm gonna call on them Uh and ask them what this is all about

[11:55]

So so part of this class is about this class is partly about fear Lots and several different types of fear fear of losing our reputation Fear of speaking in front of a group Fear of losing our minds Fear of perhaps even losing our our livelihood if we work for zen center And fear of death some people are afraid of dying in this class And just actually turns out that traditionally there are those five types of fear Did you learn them You did good Okay Well fear of death that's kind of the main one, you know public Fear of public public speaking fear of speaking in front of a group And a large usually spoken of it as speaking of fear of speaking to in front of the great assembly

[13:00]

which means Uh, usually we're not afraid to speak in front of a bunch of people We know really well, even if there's a hundred of them. We know them all and know that they'll all they all like us But to speak in front of a large group There's probably several people who who you don't know and you don't know what they're going to do or what they're going to think Or if they're going to understand you Or what and there's we that that's one of the situations that human beings become afraid Another fear is fear of loss of your reputation Another fear is fear of loss of livelihood another fear is fear of loss of your mind or losing control of your mind And These are those are five right and they all come up in this class and for good reason Yeah in the in the uh grab bag this weekend, uh, um alan boy Reports that fear of speaking in public is the number one phobia It's frequently encountered Yeah

[14:02]

Yeah Usually when I if I if I tell people these five fears when I say it's fear of speaking in front of a large group People go, huh? A lot of times they're surprised by that one It is kind of surprising but and then you can think well, there's some other fears, but I don't know Are there any other fears think about it? That's pretty good. Actually that because uh Fear of losing control of your mind is it Kind of catches a lot of stuff all these I think recently occurred to me that all these five fears are really fear of losing yourself What they're about And so this class is a class in a sense where we're actually kind of like studying what The self is after this class is about to try to Study what the self is and also to in the process forget about it actually The study is so deeply that you go right through it So it's natural that various fears would come up in the conjunction of a real study like that And in some ways if you never get afraid in this class Maybe you're you know, not noticing

[15:03]

that some of the dangers to your attachment to yourself that are implied by Not only these stories, but the group setting here Even so even though there is this problem That's what makes this class. Wonderful. Is that is that we're actually dealing with some real emotional issues right in the class and I mean, it really does make a difference whether you talk or not and when you talk it makes it you you as soon as You speak you do enter into another realm uh, so it really That's what's part of what makes this class alive and But also in one sense I can say you don't really have to worry about you actually are completely safe Completely safe So on one side i'm happy that that people are Are be able to become aware of their fears in this class and I can same time tell you that they're all really irrational Because you're you are safe here you're not you're not going to

[16:08]

You're not going to lose your mind You maybe get a new one that you never saw before Which surprises you and amazes you but you're not going to lose Your mind you're just going to your mind's going to change and so on you're not going to lose your job and you're not going to lose your reputation That stuff happens naturally, you know, anyway You might die yes, however Uh that's happening all the time anyway All those things will happen but you don't need to be afraid of what i'm saying. You actually are safe You're safe Because all those things are happening all the time anyway So Okay, so this case, uh, um As I said, there's many layers many levels to approach this material And just like as many levels to approach a relationship with another person or with yourself

[17:13]

In any relationship we're dealing with each other we each of us have histories and uh As Nietzsche said anything that has a history you can't define And in sanskrit I heard that they don't really have definitions for words they just have a constellation of associations So in a way, you know, you can't really define a person You can't really define What buddha's precepts are what the stories are because they have histories So part of what we do here is study the histories of these stories To some extent and also reveal our own histories. That's part of what's going on here But it's not just history it's history to sort of like and not history and we don't tell these histories to define the story But rather to bring in various elements to the story Not to try to get a hold of the story, but actually to try to realize how ungraspable the story is

[18:15]

That these stories are basically just Light of what they are They're light that's delivered to us in the form of words So with that With that introduction Oh with that introduction, look at the look at the look at the introduction so The profound talk entering into noumenon decides three and weeds out four The great way to the capital goes seven ways across eight ways and across eight ways up and down Suddenly if you can open your mouth and explain fully take steps and walk then you can hang

[19:21]

Your bowl and bag up high and break your staff, but tell me who is this? Um For now, I just say that this introduction by coincidence, I didn't think of it, but this introduction is Kind of the same thing. I was just saying And Maybe later we can go into how that's so If you if you want to i'd like to go right into the story and say that ditsan asked fa yin Where are you going fa yin said around on pilgrimage and ditsan Said What is the purpose of pilgrimage and fa yin said? I don't know Ditsan says not knowing is nearest And there's not blackboard here so I can't write the chinese characters on the blackboard I could write them on a piece of paper though

[20:32]

If somebody wants me to write on the back of their Their paper Does anybody have a marker Okay, well here's the first character The characters that i'm going to write are a character which is translated here as nearest Actually, I didn't write it big enough two characters Are mean nearest and the top one means uh means intimacy or close Like in a family. It's like this character here means like the relationship between a mother and a child or parent and child

[21:36]

so close Uh that there's almost no separation at all And next character means to cut And this character cut by the way with if you like write the character for one And then this character for cut one and this character cut what do you think that means Well, good guess Two that's That's another good guess Means not one it means it means everything One cut Means everything The japanese is east side e one side cut one cut means everything in other words Whatever you know with one cut You get it all Whatever whatever it is that you can get with one cut

[22:40]

That's everything So this this so this is intimate cut an intimate cut So It's translated here as nearness can also be translated as intimacy or closeness Uh having intimate connections or sometimes translated as to the point There's some people here who are in a class in san francisco and we talked quite a bit about this word the other night It's issue of being close and one of the people in class asked about Yeah He said well, you know seems like in zen. They're always talking about intimacy and how it seems like they think it's a good thing But actually he says intimacy is kind of obnoxious This guy's a great devil's advocate And it's in a way. It's true that intimacy if you It that in zen is considered to be uh Uh considered to be

[23:47]

Good or actually sort of the whole point of the whole thing But it's also kind of obnoxious or In another part of this text case 98 There's a little quote which says why is it that uh Or something like this closeness Is heartrending If you seek it outside Why is it that the ultimate Uh closeness seems almost like enmity seems almost like fighting The ultimate closeness is almost like fighting So on the psychological level, um

[24:58]

What's being proposed here is that there's something called not knowing which is the most intimate intimate situation So right off I can say that one of the things that's most obnoxious to us Is not knowing That's why some people don't like this class because they don't know what's going on But there's something quite intimate about going to a class where you don't know what's going on So The stephanie's new yorker cartoon that I read was this man and woman are sitting in their house in some in some big city and the man's looking out the window and he said Just think right now as we sit here somewhere someplace something's happening So

[26:08]

So it also occurs to me maybe this class is an emperor's clothes kind of situation where Where if you except it's reversed whereas if you if you if you say, you know something you have to leave the class But that's not true. It's okay to know things because not knowing is not like not knowing in the usual way It Means that your ordinary knowing is still going on but somehow it doesn't seem to quite make the some doesn't seem to be sufficient And that's kind of a uncomfortable unusual situation for us to be in And I like the idea that these stories the more you study them the more you realize how vast they are They don't get smaller. They get bigger And the funny thing is that they get bigger the more concentrated you get So The more you could concentrate on the story the faster what's invoked becomes

[27:09]

So this not knowing is um, this is part of what we're we'll be studying in this in this story So The main characters in this story are uh ditsan And fa yin ditsan literally means um D means earth and song means storehouse or womb In japanese it's pronounced jizo So Like those statues in the garden of green gulch and that big that beautiful standing monk Statue that used to be in zendo. It's now in the tea house That monk is called a ditsan in chinese or jizo in japanese And he's the enlightening being Of the earth womb enlightening being D is earth song is womb like in shobo genzo

[28:21]

The storehouse Of the true eyes of the dharma that's zo It means a womb or storehouse So this is earth womb enlightenment worker the enlightenment lightning being earth womb ditsan And the name of the temple that this monk ditsan was the abbot of was called ditsan monastery or ditsan temple. So He's called by the name of his temple ditsan. It's also called lohan Monastery for another temple that he was abbot of He's also the he's also the main character in case 12 where he talks about Planting right planting the fields and eating rice And fa yan in this story and he are also in dialogue in that story or in commentary that story So

[29:23]

Fa yan means fa means dharma or truth and yan means eye. So his name is dharma eye or truth eye or eye of truth His teacher is ditsan but he himself fa yan was much more famous because he founded one of the five schools of chinese zen And So we have here two very important figures in the history of zen And the story in case 12 in this story are interrelated Of course Um the way the story in case 12 is told is that This man fa yan this monk fa yan and three of his friends were traveling in south central china Around this near this one of those big lakes. Yes They have just a couple of really big lakes in china and they were traveling near this one lake in the south

[30:25]

And As a matter of fact a big province where there's lots of zen monasteries is called south of the lake and then another Province where there's also lots of zen temples is called north of the lake They were traveling around there and then it was snowing and raining and so on and uh, and the streams were swollen and they Came ashore and sought shelter in this ditsan temple and that's where they met this man And one version of this story is that when they first arrived Ditsan asked fa yan what he where he was going and fa yan said on pilgrimage and he said what is pilgrimage and fa yan said I don't know and ditsan said uh Not knowing is most intimate But in this this version There was a previous story in case 12 And this story here happened later When he had already studied with him for a long time So here

[31:28]

the not knowing uh is the same not knowing as in the story I told you before in a sense, but This is the not knowing that he says after studying for many years with him So I guess we we may understand or make consider the possibility that this That he's saying not knowing and he really is He really has realized And become comfortable with this not knowing that when he says I don't know He's really settled there And he's not any longer. Um Well, he's just completely integrated with this with this way of being So

[32:38]

Could be a positive not knowing instead of negative not knowing Uh, this yes, this not knowing is positive He's a positive. It's not knowing refers to It's a nickname It's it's just a word for something and what it's I think what it's the word for is, uh What it's He says what's pilgrimage so he's asking what kind of what is pilgrimage, right? In other words, what is walk what is to walk buddha's path? What does it mean to walk buddha's way? What does it mean to walk the way of awakening? And the monk says I don't know So the middle way is to avoid Uh any extremes in terms of what you know or don't know I could say yes

[33:42]

What is you know, what is the what is pilgrimage? Yeah, yeah, that's right. You can say what is pilgrimage and you can say yes Which is like not knowing. I don't know. Yes. Uh-huh, right An echo very famous state Yeah, right great historical precedent right case two of this collection um Case two where the emperor says to bodhidharma Um What is the meaning Of the highest truth and bodhidharma says vast emptiness No, holy And emperor says who is this facing me and bodhidharma says don't know or I don't know Uh Uh I didn't I didn't I looked up the word intimacy, but I don't remember what it says. It probably doesn't say I don't know It probably just says don't know

[34:44]

Usually in chinese ages. You don't usually it's sort of emphatic to have to say. I you say don't know that means Somebody asked you Who who who are you? You don't you say? I don't know just say don't know So So there's the founding comment of zen in china don't know and here it is again What is the what is pilgrimage? What is the buddha way? Don't know or I don't know And this is most intimate. So Yes Um in relationship what you were saying about the class and about peers Yes Yes Right Yes, it was like a letting down yes, yes Yes

[35:50]

The story said Yeah Yeah Some some people would say well, how do you how do you sit zazen someone might say just don't know right Or someone else would just would say So how do you sit zazen or how should I practice zazen you say practice zazen But how practice zazen Right But I want to know how I want to know how I want to know how Practice zazen or how? or what So So, how can we encourage each other to walk um the path Admitting that we're human beings and human beings

[36:57]

Want to know how to do it and you want to have some kind of like sense Of whether they're doing it right or wrong This is normal for human beings And that's another case case, uh 19 of the book of uh, the book the uh, fatal escape What is the buddha way everyday mind is the way your ordinary human mind How do you know? whether you whether you're uh You know doing it right or right or not How do you know whether you're doing it right or not And the teacher says it's not a matter of knowing or not knowing Knowing is just a state of delusion not knowing is just some kind of blankness of consciousness But that not knowing is not this kind this not knowing that's like the that kind of knowing is the opposite of knowing It's not knowing is between those two extremes

[38:00]

It's just a path It's the path of no doubt path of trust I keep thinking it's turning away and touching are both wrong. Yeah, right turning away and touching are both wrong Touching is like knowing turning away is like the opposite of knowing Neither one will make But do we trust that walking ahead in this state is good enough Meanwhile the mind that's knowing thing it keeps cooking away somebody keeps knowing things all the time that's not going to stop You're gonna you're gonna know these kinds of things and also that The practice of mindfulness should be uninterrupted and mindfulness Is fundamentally mindfulness of the process of knowing?

[39:01]

And you shouldn't you shouldn't Pretend as though your mind doesn't go ahead knowing things Matter of fact, you should keep track of and admit how your mind is knowing things Because it does keep knowing things that knowing process keeps going on Which is also the process that keeps creating subject object separation and so on And a self that's going to keep going on However, that's that's just ordinary human delusion And there's another way which is simultaneous with it which doesn't need to know anything Which doesn't need to get caught up in that process Yes If I don't know is Is the child of bodhidharma's don't know? I don't understand why he's our has to add not knowing his nearest but they both Simultaneously understand

[40:05]

It's settled into that. I don't know Is it for us that he's on yet It's for us And it's for buy-in and it's for deep sound Because as I've mentioned before you may know something Because in this story one way to read the story is by yin is at peace with the path of ungrasping And He's at peace with neither touching nor turning away He's at peace with the middle middle way and he and he's about and he goes to his teacher and says uh Teacher says where are you going? And he says i'm going on pilgrimage. He's at peace with this and his teacher says what is it? What is buddhism? I don't know He's saying i've realized this So

[41:07]

But um What comes to my mind is it takes two to conceive Conceptions are not made by us individually we make conceptions together Together And when Whenever we make whenever we realize something the nature of our psyche is that when someone else reflects it and recognizes it We know it more deeply That the knowing we have even though even if we have practiced a long time and we are settled in mindfulness of the world of knowing and certainty And fearlessness in the world of not knowing And we're completely at peace avoiding grabbing extremes Even then still To present that and get it reflected by another person

[42:08]

We we our understanding then becomes independent Until we present our understanding to another We we do not yet have independence We must through our connection with another Realize the independence of arts of our position of our path So he must do this and he needs it fa yin needs it and ditsan needs it because he also needs it in order to Be the teacher of his student and he also did that for us thousands of years later They knew that if they really did it it would it would Have a chance to reproduce itself again and again When I say it takes two to conceive We we sometimes say that in terms, you know, you might you think of making a baby right but in terms of making conceptions Concepts concepts are not made by one person concepts are community events or and or social events

[43:11]

And that community production of concepts is part of what's going on in the psychological background of this story Which we can get into later, but i'll just tell that to you now concepts are not Made individually concepts are made by at least two What is made individually? What is the thing you made by yourself? That no one else needs to help you with or can help you with What's that? Huh, what no concepts are delusion Huh projection of what Self self experience Feelings well, uh, nothing What's nothing at all what you can produce by yourself There's yeah, you can produce nothing nothing at all yourself and what is that nothing at all that you produce by yourself No, you don't produce the whole world by yourself

[44:17]

You don't produce your history by yourself the thing you produce by yourself is uh Well one way to put in terms of what we're talking about the thing you produce by yourself is grasping of extremes That's what you produce by yourself or the thing you produce by yourself Is the belief in the inherent existence of things that you produce by yourself other you don't do that with other people You take responsibility for that, huh? They take responsibility for that. That's what you take responsibility for But you do not have to take responsibility for the entire conceptual framework of the universe which we make together And which are the objects of our knowing that we make together And the fact that we make them together is why they're empty But we make them together we make them together We do not however we individually make up our belief That these things exist in a minute that nobody does with us and nobody else can share that with us Even though we all do it exactly the same way. Yes like um, we don't In a way, we're not responsible for all these

[45:20]

Right exactly for example unicorn, okay So Problem with it You don't like people but other people with Influence If you saw a unicorn But what i'm saying to you What i'm saying to you is that you would not ever see a unicorn before you had a concept of it Just like uh, for example uh most Like I think I like the example of I've been told that there are seven million colors which we can see

[46:29]

That we can directly experience Seven million in other words, there's a range of seven million variations in wavelength that affect our our equipment There's more than seven million wavelengths There's seven million that we're sensitive to with our eyes And we can respond differently to seven million, but nobody can see seven million colors because nobody has seven million concepts for colors And some people see 200 colors and other people see 13 or 9 It's like eskimos can see 30 kinds of 30 kinds of snow, but we can't They actually see 30 kinds of snow and we can't They have no that's why they it's only because they have 30 words if they can see 30 kinds of snow and when little Eskimos can't see 30 kinds of snow When they're little they don't they don't see 30 kinds of snow. They see some Some smaller number kinds of snow I don't know how many they see but by the time they're adults they can see more kinds of snow

[47:32]

And when we were little we couldn't see unicorns We learned to see unicorns, I don't know what age we learned but somewhere along the way we learned Unicorns are not inherently given to us, but there are some concepts which are Basic ones And we and you and I did not make these concepts by ourselves They are They're communally made and also because of that we can have discourse about them and we can adjust them You can you can we can change our concepts by this by discussion with other concepts. We can modify our concepts of things I always use a brand new concept of abraham lincoln We have different versions of abraham lincoln and we can share the concept and we can modify it right here in this room now Just like you can modify history History is something we make together. It's not something you make by yourself Are you saying that there's no such thing as an original thought am I saying that

[48:36]

Um, no i'm not saying that But what i'm saying is that in terms of what you know You always deal in terms of concepts which pre-date this moment of knowing In the realm, that's what's the problem of the realm of knowing is that it is always You always select these concepts as the object of what you know So you never see in the realm of knowing any colors before you've got names for them So You see them all in the realm of direct experience This uh, this is in many respects true that we uh that we learn How to see and how to perceive the world

[49:40]

Uh through language and through the sharing of concepts but um That wouldn't explain how language and concepts arise They're presumably in some form of perception and knowing that uh arises before concepts arise and gives birth to concepts And uh, not everybody has all of those experiences independently or originally But someone did someone Someone did what someone someone had a perception and developed knowledge uh and then knowledge or entered into the state of knowing And developed the language to express that perception of that knowledge Which then became shared with other people

[50:41]

And the language for it enabled a larger group of people to share the perception of knowledge Well, but they don't occur a priori so there must be I think Logically, there must be some experience that precedes the language I think there is experience that precedes the language And then I think there's even experience which precedes being aware of some some object And I think that when my my story would be The story that I would make from the other stories i've heard would be at some point somebody saw an object And uh That was a big moment for that somebody Big mistake big moment And i'm suggesting that once that once the object was seen

[51:46]

That then by the very fact that the object was seen The subject was created And then I would also suggest the story that That That this subject then needed the object to turn around and look back at it Or whether it needed it or not That when the subject did turn when the object did turn around and look back at the subject and the subject then even thought That the object that was looking at it was another subject But that made a very important step further And on top of that that this externalized version That this externalized subject object game is actually now The same story that was happening before this in the dark When these subjects and objects were touching each other and were very intimate

[52:50]

With each other but they didn't know it So somebody first I guess Managed to sort of look at some somehow separate herself or himself from somebody else in that suit There was that probably that first step But then that somebody in order to play out the fullness of the darkness in the light Got the other started wanted the other person to look back And then there was two of them And that's how that's when that I think that's what made the concept and that's and then that's what they got the word for To celebrate that that looking back and forth Is that what happened to Garth and Dean? Now the trick and then the additional thing is in the story is that Then the thing we didn't do by ourselves What what we did individually was we started to imagine That there was some inherently existent thing on one side of the other of this thing or that the separation wasn't real

[53:54]

But I think that that's contained Within the story we just told That that comes That arises at the moment that you say Someone saw an object. Yeah, right So I I don't have any problem with that with that story of the birth of language I think I think that that's what the story that story is. That's the birth of language And the birth and the birth of the conceptual universe And the birth of subject and object nevertheless, I don't I'm not convinced that that Uh that that moment is exactly the same moment Is the discovery of every concept and the arising of every form of new knowledge Uh at some point with a certain amount of equipment somebody can have a new perception Independent of

[54:56]

Of the immediate sharing of another person and reify that and develop a new Linguistic convention to identify it Hey mo, look at what happens when your sled runs over the snow like that the way it packs down like that That kind of that's that's different from the other kinds of identification of snow and it does something like that That's special that's month You know and and that person creates it and shares it I I but I say I'd say that's not a concept Until it's until it's shared. I say and I I said I would say that's not concept until somebody else is involved in making it But we can talk about that because jordan's extremely excited One of these things in a very special moment, which is called a big digression Uh What do you want to do talk about the case

[55:58]

Jordan you're saying that we were digressing. Yeah Your psychological states we were Is this how the type of conversation you have with you to save all beings it seemed to me a little Uh A little off the point of uh Saving all beings Well, what what's what is on the point of saving all beings What's on the point Uh Yes, andy The prior state prior to concept When there's soup you were talking about before perception That intimacy

[57:07]

Yeah Seems to me it breaks through the intimacy that breaks through. Yeah breaks through in between Concepts and that's the place for saving all beings it seems to me Um There's nothing to do but I mean it's like that part It seems to me that part of human experience Yeah, it is part of human experience and it's and it's going on all the time But it seems also very valuable without clinging to it It's very valuable. Even if you do cling to it It's not what you can say valuable. But anyway, but whatever you call it. Anyway, it's what's happening all the time But also what's happening all the time is That we're separating ourselves from each other. Yeah, so both of those are going on all the time. Yeah And then the five skandhas talk about this, right? One feeling perception and then what's number two? Uh, I see consciousness

[58:10]

and Formations various kinds of formations Greed hate and delusion. Well, maybe there's a way to remember Before the five skandhas Uh, well you already remember before the five skandhas but the thing is about you can't you can't know that realm No But it's there. I mean it's there, right? That's right. So we can like, um Maybe learn to live from there and then maybe all beings could be saved Learn to live from there. We already are living from there. We're living from there all the time Believe me that all beings are not being saved Uh, oh, that's not true No, we are We are always we are always living from that place from that place before words. We're always living from there All the time every moment we're living from there and it's not going to be aware of that

[59:11]

You cannot be aware of it In the realm of knowing it never can you know it? So what being aware is better than known Uh, it it actually is awareness It's a type of awareness, but it's not an awareness that has objects which are seen as separate from subjects It's a different it's that kind of awareness Is that the difference between awareness and knowing? Yeah, it's it's an awareness that doesn't have knowing right yeah, so that's like what i'm reaching for Uh, don't reach for it Because if you try to reach for it, you'll just fool yourself because Because the one who's reaching for it is the one who knows things and that doesn't work. It doesn't work So then coming back is just practicing Coming back is just practicing coming back. What do you mean by coming back coming back to the senses prior to the five skies? You don't have to come back to it. It's already happening right now. You don't have to worry about that. That's taken care of No problem. It's there. It's there just cooking away every moment

[60:13]

The problem is me exactly if you could figure out what me was well, there isn't any Yeah, but if you could figure out what isn't any meant You can't find meaning there because yes, you can find that's exactly where you find meaning you find meaning the place you find meaning Is that me? Me buddhism turns on me That's where it turns it's a key the key of buddhism is me is itself That's delusion That's right The key to buddhism is delusion buddha happens on delusion Delusion aware of delusion being aware of delusion is where buddhism is realized So I'd like to offer a different interpretation Excuse me, by the way, that's your answer your question jordan about what it has to do with saving all sentient beings

[61:17]

This class is about delusion Andy, can I just you know about the eskimos? I think it's an old wives tale if they have 30 words In fact, they just have one word and then they say fluffy and shiny or wet heavy, right? Just like we do So that's Andy i'd like to propose a different interpretation. I'm, sorry Obviously But you can talk about a different case if you'd like to um, okay When he's on says not knowing his nearest I'd like to propose that another interpretation that might be

[62:22]

that by And had a tremendous awakening experience And at the neft He Had that awakening experience Recognized the inconceivability Of the dharma in that experience and when someone asked him about The dharma he said I don't know right as a matter of fact the character for uh, one of the one of the The character that's often translated as inconceivable is can't know Rather than rather than don't know don't know it's like this character food, which means don't do something Another character is this this thing this character like this, which means cup not cup which means can't

[63:28]

Or won't I don't know which one he said there but not knowing It could also be said to be inconceivable. He said what is What is uh, what is pilgrimage? It's inconceivable The buddhist way the buddhist way is actually inconceivable Is But again inconceivable does not mean any way that you think about what inconceivable is All the different ways that we conceive of what inconceivable is that's not what's meant by inconceivable The inconceivable way could be totally conceivable It could be like this completely like right there in every way that you conceive of it could be both and it would be mistakenly called Right So that that's that's one way to hear this story and that's I think one of the I think that's kind of like the central meaning of this story is that this is a story of enlightenment all the way through And that's what they're talking about. It's like

[64:30]

This is enlightening. This is a buddha talking to a buddha and a buddha says to a buddha Where are you going? And buddhas? Where do buddhas go? They go on pilgrimage. Okay. What's a pilgrimage? You ask a buddha What's a pilgrimage? What do they say? They say it's inconceivable or I the human being over here I this human being who's into knowing things because buddhas are human beings who are into knowing things Just like you and me buddhas are into knowing they don't stop. They don't give up the knowing equipment They don't go back to a state when they didn't have knowing That's going on all the time with buddhas that's going on all the time with everybody. They've got that we've got them They've got knowing going. Okay, so they say As for my this equipment it doesn't apply And that's coming from buddha So the difference and so the difference between coming from buddha and coming from not buddha is when buddha says it It comes from certainty and settledness in being human being And in fact just saying I don't know. In fact, that's true

[65:34]

Well, it isn't conceivable But as soon as you said it, it's already crossed over from the buddha to the person. It's not quite there but as close as you think it is. Is that another? It didn't really cross over The buddha came from the person But as soon as it said it's already in a phenomenal relative and therefore Not absolute. It's like you can't really say anything. I mean you were going to respond to this question. I mean You can't you can't respond as soon as you responded you've already got things relative Is that what he says not knowing his nearest to me nearest sounds like close No, I think nearest means most I guess intimate, you know that that the nature of the situation is that uh, Is that what buddha has to do with buddha is not something you find separate from your relative world That's the absolute world So it's not that what he said is anything

[66:36]

If it so as soon as he says anything, well, that's the relative thing. Yes, that's true. But if that's not the problem No, no problem. I'm saying it's just that as soon as it's like you need to call all around There's nothing right there. There's nothing that you can really put A finger to it And that's the trick of buddhism. I think it's to talk around it Which is unknown It's unknown say anything about it is you know Good as long as it's not mistaken with it Yeah Good as long as you don't mistake it with it, but also it's even better as long as you don't think there's an it That it's not mistaken with My criminal criminal nature Yes, you can But after you don't anymore then you do again

[67:38]

You come back to visit because of the vow of our buddha nature and come back Into criminal activity again Sala, uh Stein steinbach got ordained, you know, I wrote on the back of her the back of her, uh rocks That the unconcerned surrenderer seeks a criminal name so I went over to her after the after the uh, the wedding after the And to explain to her what it said in the back of her rocks too And I I translated for her after she introduced me to her father judge so-and-so He was having quite a time Talking about this recurrent entrance and desire to enter into criminal behavior

[68:44]

Well, actually it's criminal name first of all, right criminal name and then you're caught And released because again release is only possible when you're caught So there is a state which is always present which is the state of suchness which is precisely what's happening Right If you don't have anything other than what's happening if you surrender to what's happening, you're the unconcerned surrenderer You don't there's not producing a single thought There's we have there is a level of our consciousness which is totally non-criminal non-criminal Which is so non-criminal that even criminal activity Can happen And there's somebody who completely surrenders to that unconcernedly And it's so purely Just being a criminal That there's not there's no thought

[69:45]

There's just the suchness of criminality And that is that is always possible always happening And that's not anything. However, we don't even let that go whether it's criminality or Real kindness or whatever it is. We always want to muck it up a little bit because when we are mucked up Then we can be caught when we are caught we can realize buddhahood We must be caught in order to liberate all beings because all beings are caught But there is a possibility of stopping that stuff That's part of this part of the process Is stopping and stopping is not something you do everything always has a stopped nature The stopped nature of things is just the way they are. It's always going on And even In the level of consciousness, which is prior to conception And the level of consciousness post-conception. In other words conceptual consciousness

[70:50]

Which has subject and object And belief in inherent existence and all that and misery that comes with it that level of consciousness It has a suchness And the level of consciousness which does not separate into subject and object has a suchness All realms have suchness all things are as they are And are thus liberated from themselves But we don't stop there we enter into Biasness And we get caught for it, but at the moment we're caught As we enter from suchness We are liberated with all beings And somehow things are always caught in their suchness and always liberated in their suchness But things the suchness of things must come into the world Into the yucky world They must In order to realize the meaning of suchness the usefulness of suchness

[71:56]

And it's heart-rending It's a little bit outside And as you get close to it, it's almost like it's almost like a war. It's almost like Almost make you sick at your stomach or not almost it does make you kind of sick at your stomach as you descend into the yuckiness of it That's where buddha lives That's where we eat buddha So alive there too, it's so alive So in a way you have to touch all that form completely Yes And I I spend a lot of time creating a formless thing that is a repository of it Mm-hmm But it feels better to kind of lie against it perfectly like a perfect match But it takes a lot of letting go

[73:02]

Yeah, and the main way to let go is to admit how caught you are And once you completely know how caught you are And you realize suchness and then You have to get you have to mess around with that Is caught contributing no caught what happens to you after you Attribute inherent existence If you don't attribute attributing inherent existence is seeking a criminal name Is messing around with not producing a single thought Is that you know a slight flinching from suchness Does that not mean caught?

[74:04]

Does that not cause caught? No No, it's not well in the sense that no there's a result of that. There's a there's a you get there's a consequence of that And that consequence is being caught What do you think That trying not to as a consequence of this earlier thing of attributing inherent existence which is so subtle, you know because That's again something which you which each of us has to spot ourselves and we can't really talk to anybody else about i'm talking to you about it But i'm the thing i'm playing with you around is concepts But these concepts can help us guide ourselves to catch ourselves in the act of doing The one great sin which each of us do on our own in which we are uniquely responsible for and that is attributing inherent existence From here on to what we're experiencing What we experience is something we make together

[75:09]

We conceive the world together But the believing in it and the attaching to it. Nobody else does that for you Even though everybody does it the same way Is There's not really a choice about attributing inherent existence or not basically you do constantly attribute inherent existence For now What does that mean Yes, you do you do but the way you do it is you use the inherent existence version of not existing Okay, that's that's one of the forms of what's yes I mean the good in nature that you say is with us all the time. Isn't that that place that we're not there? Attribute No Buddha nature goes right down into the attributing of

[76:16]

Inherent existence the buddha nature is like totally fearless It goes into the deepest sin It goes right in there and makes the deepest sin the brightest light That's the nature it doesn't like saying i'm not i'm not i don't do that Basically for all No, it's not It's not not into light the light is that Is what this is a you know, kind of this Multi-dimensional light the light is that attributing inherent existence The thing is attributing inherent existence and that's part of the life of buddha buddha What is when buddha when the light of buddha comes to attributing inherent existence? Guess what that is? attributing inherent existence When the light of buddha comes to concepts of knowledge, which are the objects of knowledge Guess what buddha calls that concepts which are the object of knowledge and what does it see those concepts as?

[77:18]

as things which are conditioned by the cosmos which are the products of all of our activity and so on, with various stories of how that happened. Buddha sees that. That ain't all Buddha sees. Buddha also sees how much these are going on, and Buddha also sees that these two things are never contaminated by each other. That one is one and the other is the other. And that also Buddha is not something in addition to that. Buddha is simply the fact that those two things never touch each other. But Buddha is not another thing over here called not attributing inherent existence. There's not like attributing inherent existence, concepts of knowledge, and then another thing called not attributing inherent existence. There's not such a thing. That would be a real fancy concept, which we just created just now. This is one of the fanciest concepts you people have seen today. Did you see it?

[78:19]

Did you see that concept? Couldn't quite see it. It's an example of a concept. The fact she can't see it is that that's not a concept for her yet, if she's taught the truth. Here's the concept. That there's this Buddha nature, this thing called Buddha, there's something which we call Buddha nature, which doesn't attribute inherent existence to things. Something. And I'm saying that for the psyche there is attributing inherent existence, there's that reality. There is conceptual objects, and then there's the fact that they're separate. There's not an additional thing. But if you imagined another thing that was up here not getting involved in attributing inherent existence, then you could say, but this thing knows objects, does it? Or not? Or is it just the pure not getting involved in attributing inherent existence? That would be an example of another concept, which is now dawning on you, is it coming? Another concept. That's not the Buddha nature, but the fact that that's a concept

[79:28]

and can now be an object of our communal discourse, and is not for some people. That's part of our reality, and these are the things we know. And we don't know them until we have a concept to play with. The Buddha nature is the fact that these two are separate. Always. And whether this ever stops, whether this attributing inherent existence ever stops or not, basically I would say it's not really such a big issue whether it stops, because it goes on so much that basically we might as well assume it's constant. And even if it didn't, so what? What if you got a break and there was just conceptual consciousness going on? So what? What would that be like? I'll tell you what it would be like. Guess what it would be like. What do you think that would be like? I won't tell you, you just tell me. What would that be like, this conceptual existence without attributing inherent existence? What would that be like? What? What kind of thing? What? The Rock Opera Tommy.

[80:30]

The Rock Opera Tommy? Okay, what would the Rock Opera Tommy be without attributing any inherent existence to it? What would that be? Boring. Try boring. It's worse than boring. Dead. Dead. Dead. Not life. Not human life anyway. Ice. But anyway, it's not really a problem. Everybody's got this. Because everybody's alive. Gatos too. This is not Buddha nature. This is not possible. This would just be pure. Now it is possible to have some people who are conceptual to take concepts and build concepts, you know, mathematics. But all the way along the way, these mathematicians are attributing inherent existence in their minds. The Buddha nature is the fact that these are separated. That is how you're constantly released.

[81:34]

That's bliss, the fact that these are separated. And there's another level of existence below that, which is also going on simultaneously, where we don't have concepts and therefore you don't have attributing inherent existence. This is also a big chunk of our biology. That's going on all the time too. That's like you're sitting there to be kind of like inundate this other realm as soon as you realize these are separated. That's why the bliss is like this waiting to gush forth into the realm which says these two are mixed up. So the Buddha nature is this whole schmear of our life. But the place it turns is right here on the self around you. The place where the whole thing turns around and integrates itself is on this self thing. Self, self, self. Self is this inherent existence. So how do you know all of that? How do I know all of that? By studying, studying, studying, and talking, [...] and thinking, and thinking,

[82:40]

and looking, [...] and talking. Just wonder. Non-stop talk. I'm talking constantly. So if we talk as much as you, will we know as much as you? What are you saying? I'm blushing. Are you? Did you call that a blush? There's a card blushing. Did someone have their hand raised? I have one quick question. You mentioned everyone creates this together. Creates what together?

[83:41]

Concepts. Can that be equated with dependent co-arising? Yes. That's not the totality of dependent co-arising. That's the dependently co-arisen conceptual reality. That's the dependently co-arisen realm of knowing. Which is where we're trapped. We're trapped in the realm of knowing. Which is the realm of self. That's why self is the place where we turn around and get released in. And we achieve release from that realm, and integration with the realm that doesn't have a self there. But it's got a lot of shit in it. It's got the consequences of all the selfish things we've done are in there. But it's our life. Take it. Yes? Is it knowing is that much grasping, and is that the half-knowing we want?

[84:44]

Can you say that again, please? My understanding of knowing is kind of hold on to it, and separation, and grasping. It's like that. What do you want to know? You want to know. Why? Well, because it's like a... It's a step forward into complexity. And it's a way to celebrate the darkness. It brings darkness into light. It's another dimension of the possibilities of creation and of biological functioning. To know things. To be aware of something outside yourself. And it also sets up this possibility of this fantastic thing called reintegration and liberation from being trapped by the trouble you get into from that thing.

[85:54]

So it sets up all these dramas. All dramas come from this place. So we should become talkative, dramatic beings. And Zen stories are about these talkative, dramatic beings. So what happens next in the novel, I assume, is after this? I don't know. But I can tell you that I think that they've been very close for a long time at the time this story happens. Another version is that this happens early, and then they study together with each other for a long time. It's always student-teacher, but the equality is established in this story. Which makes them both happy.

[86:59]

There's a line in the commentary in the story of number 12 where it says, Without going outside the gate, you knew the whole world. What does that mean? Without going outside the gate. Another version of it is something like, without going outside the shop, the wheels of the cart fit in the tracks. Like you can build something inside of a shop that will work some other place without even having to go out and test it. A similar kind of thing. And that's part of the scariness of the path, is that we don't know if it will be able to work in our daily life if we go this way.

[88:03]

How will it work? We want some kind of way of checking beforehand that it's going to work out there tomorrow, or in such and such a situation. We don't trust dependent co-arising. We don't trust that focusing on how things happen is the best way to take care of our life. But in fact, the proposal here is that it actually takes care of it better to give up this kind of controlling approach. That you'll be in better shape to handle it if you come empty-handed. The unconcerned surrenderer literally means the person who surrenders to having nothing. That person seeks a criminal name, in other words, that person goes forth in the world to put it to a test to see if you can actually go up to somebody completely naked, exposed, with nothing, and cope. So once you get to this place of not knowing, then the world just gives you everything you need to do to develop that insight.

[89:15]

It gives you all these opportunities, all these... it just enunciates you with possibilities and chances and tests. Yeah, it's like Beginner's Mind, except this is Beginner's Mind, which you really feel settled in. It's going back, but it is like going back to the beginning. So, please read this case. There's commentary now, and there's more delusions for you to cope with. I'll carry on the commentary. See if you can enter the commentary in the verse, and next week we'll talk about the commentary in the verse, and bring your stuff. I hope you have a really nice pilgrimage. What? Why do I hope that? Because I'm just like you.

[90:18]

You believe that? Huh? Huh?

[90:26]

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