The thing that attracted me to Zen practice was stories of human beings who were able to fully express our great capacity for wisdom and compassion. We human beings have a have a we have the ability to be compassionate.

[01:02]

And wisdom, Buddha's wisdom is what makes it possible for this ability to be fully expressed. And if we want to realize in our life Buddha's wisdom, if we want to be able to fully express our compassion, which is the same as fully express ourselves, then the first thing is to study ourselves. inside out, to study ourselves thoroughly.

[02:12]

Which is to say, the first thing is to take refuge in our awakening nature. to align ourselves with awakening. To study ourselves inside out, to align ourselves with awakening means to study ourselves in relationship to all others. to study all others. And of course when I study others, I study others in relationship to myself because I use myself to study others.

[03:20]

And I use others to study myself. The realization of Buddha's wisdom is in the complete study of self and other, which means the study of self in relationship to all others, every single other. There's a a story I'd like to tell you, which I may not be able to tell very well, but I'll try. As I was about to tell you this story, another one just intercepted it and took over my mind.

[04:35]

It's a story about myself. Last time I gave a talk here, I tried to tell you about a cartoon in the New Yorker, and I didn't tell the story, I didn't tell the cartoon properly. I'm sorry. Now, another cartoon has appeared in my mind, and it is, it's a picture, and it's, there's an image of a woman sitting in an easy chair, looks like she's in her 50s or 60s. And she's sitting up straight, and before her is a young man, a boy. And she says to the boy something like, Forgive me, dear, but would you please call me Grandmother or grandma instead of butthead.

[05:42]

That's our repayment for the one I told improperly a couple weeks ago. Now I'd like to tell a more complex story, which I'll probably screw up, so please forgive me. It's hard to do this one. So it's a story about a butler. And so this butler was talking to his lord. And the Lord said, I have a son-in-law, I mean, a godson. And I just heard he's been engaged to be married. I wondered if you could do something which is really beyond the call of duty. And I really shouldn't ask you at all. It's much too much. But would you mind telling him about the facts of life since he's getting married?

[07:02]

He may not know. And the butler said, you know, certainly, sir, basically. And again, the Lord said, I'm really sorry. This is terribly much, but I think you could do it better than me anyway. He said, certainly, sir. So he went out looking for the godson in the garden of the estate and walking around among the hedgerows, came around a corner and discovered the young man smoking cigarettes. And although he was old enough to smoke, he was surprised and kind of coughed for a little while, and then was happy to see the butler, who he liked. And the butler said, you know, good morning, sir. How are you? And isn't the garden lovely today? And the young man said, yes. have you noticed any birds or bees around?

[08:08]

And the young man said, no, I haven't seen any birds and certainly no bees. And the butler said, but have you thought about how birds and bees function? I mean, do you know about this kind of thing? He said, somewhat. And the butler said, I would like to talk to you about the workings of bees and the workings of birds and actually of all the plants here in the garden and the abundance of life here and how it all comes to be and so on. And the young man said, I'd like to do that. He said, you know, and actually, I'm very much interested in fish.

[09:09]

I study them a lot, and I'd love to talk to you about fish. And I think just about that time, the butler was called off, and he said, oh, excuse me, sir, but we'll have to continue our conversation later. And the young man said, yes, I would just love to talk to you about fish. And the butler said, yes, fine. All living creatures would be relevant to our discussion. And when I heard that, I thought, yes. All living creatures are relevant to our discussion. And we can learn from all of them. And there's two ways, two basic ways in which we learn about and study our relationship to living creatures.

[10:15]

And one way is taught to us in relationship to dogs. This is the year of the dog, as you know. Did you know that? This is it. Chinese New Year was last week, and this is the year of the dog. And so it's kind of a boon to Buddhism because, as I think I mentioned last time, that dogs, they bring to mind loyalty and obedience and heart. But in particular, also, I was encouraged to see an advertisement for the parade, the New Year's parade in Chinatown in the Year of the Dog, and it said this. Could you see that in the back?

[11:28]

You couldn't? Can you see it now? It says, sit. And it has an exclamation mark after it. I don't know, I guess in some sense I'd like to give some exposition or some commentary on the meaning of the exclamation mark. Now you might think that the exclamation mark means that it's kind of a harsh tone, emphasizing to the dog the necessity of sitting, or the dog emphasizing to us the necessity of sitting. So one of the basic practices that we use to study ourselves in relationship to others is this practice of sitting.

[12:40]

The other way of talking about it is to say that we receive Buddha's teaching or we receive Buddha's precepts. Sitting and receiving Buddha's precepts are two ways to understand how to study ourselves completely and thus realize Buddha's wisdom. Now when we say sit or when you hear sit, you may have some idea of sitting.

[13:53]

I do, I guess. Maybe you do. If you don't, that's kind of strange, but just the word sit is some idea of sitting. But sitting is not just that I do what I think is sitting. Sitting is Buddha's precepts. Sitting is to practice what all Buddhas have practiced and what all Buddhas have taught. And all Buddhas have taught the avoiding of evil, the practicing of good, and the benefiting of beings.

[15:06]

Sitting is the avoiding of evil, the practicing of good, and the benefiting of beings. Again, when I first started sitting, I had some idea about what sitting is.

[17:12]

And then when I practiced longer, I got some new ideas about what sitting is. And I continue to get, not always, not every day, not every moment, but I keep getting new ideas of what sitting might be. what might sitting be? All living creatures would be relevant to this discussion. It's not exactly that each of you in relationship to me is what sitting is. It's not necessarily that way, but I could say perhaps what sitting is for me is each of you and for each of you what sitting is is all of us and far beyond us.

[18:22]

Another way to say it, though, would be that each of you, all living beings, all creatures, are relevant to the discussion of what sitting is. All living beings, all living creatures teach me what sitting is. Each person I meet, each animal, each tree I meet teaches me what sitting is, teaches me what it means to avoid evil, to practice good and to benefit all beings. Perhaps I should say each living being is trying to teach me.

[19:38]

I may not listen to the teaching because the way they are, I may have trouble accepting as teaching me how to realize Buddha's wisdom. But I'm here proposing that all living creatures are relevant to the discussion of how to sit how to fulfill the commandment of the year of the dog. What that explanation mark means is, please find the meaning of sitting in every particle of the entire universe. in every moment of the day, realize what it means to sit as Buddha.

[20:46]

The Zen teacher Dogen wrote 95 chapters to help us understand sitting. He wrote chapters about the moon, about the ocean, about the mountains and the waters, about the color of the mountains and the sounds of the streams, about painted cakes, about drinking tea and eating rice. about spring and autumn, and about plum blossoms. And on and on he wrote to help people understand what it means to sit, exclamation mark, how it is that by studying thoroughly yourself inside out through all things,

[22:06]

you understand what it means to sit. So, I would like to study with you a little bit about plum blossoms and plum trees. as a way to understand what it means to sit, what it means to practice what all Buddhas have practiced, avoiding evil, practicing good and benefiting beings. Zen Master Dogen's teacher was named Tian Tung. And Tien Tung's first verse for the midwinter was, Old plum tree, bent and gnarled, all at once opens one blossom, two blossoms, three, four, five blossoms, uncountable blossoms.

[23:29]

not proud of its purity, not proud of its fragrance, spreading, becoming spring, blowing over grass and trees, balding the head of patch-robed monks, whirling changing into wind, wild rain, falling snow all over the earth. The old plum tree is boundless. Hard cold rubs the nostrils. This old plum tree is boundless. This old plum tree is teaching us who we are.

[24:36]

It is Buddha's mind. At once its blossoms open and the fruit is born. It forms spring. It forms winter. It rouses wind and wild rain. This plum blossom does. this plum tree does. And we can prove it. Right outside this hall, there's a plum tree. And that plum tree, as you see, has brought wild wind and rain. has brought all of you and me, has brought spring and has brought winter, has brought mist and clouds and churning waters.

[25:45]

It is balding the head of patch-robed monks It is churning the tongue around in your mouth. It is the eyeball of the ancient Buddhas. It becomes grass and trees and becomes pure fragrance. It's whirling. Miraculous transformation has no limit. When this old plum tree suddenly opens, the world of blossoming flowers arises. The moment when the world of blossoming flowers arises, spring arrives.

[27:09]

Therefore the old plum tree is within this human world and in the heavenly world. Therefore hundreds and thousands of blossoms are called both human and heavenly blossoms. Ten thousand and billions of blossoms are Buddha ancestor blossoms. At such a moment we shout, all Buddhas have appeared in the world. At such a moment, we shout, the ancestor was originally in this land. Can you shout that shout?

[28:15]

In behalf of the plum tree, in gratitude to its teachings, When I shout, all Buddhas have appeared in this world, a little bird may flip by my mind and say, is now the time to say that? Is this morning the time to announce that all Buddhas, all Buddhas have appeared in the world? Do I believe really that the ancestor was originally in this land? This land?

[29:22]

What land? This land. What is this land? This is the land of flowering blossoms. whose shout, whose announcement realizes Buddha's compassion in this world? The plum tree is announcing it. What about us? By studying ourselves inside out, in relationship to all things, in relationship to dogs and men and women, in relationship to plum trees, we reach the point where we can proclaim that the ancestor originally lived here in this world.

[30:52]

It just turns out that we have a plum tree at Green Gulch and it just turns out that plum trees and white plum blossoms are very popular in this school. We are extremely lucky to have plum trees here because this is the school of white plum blossoms. Therefore, Dogen's teacher, Tian Tung, goes on about plum trees and on about plum trees and on about plum trees. If we had enough faith, I could show you how much he goes on about plum trees. But I know some of you are expecting lunch. So I won't bother you that much. kindly. I'll let you off easy with just a few more examples of how keen Dogen Zenji's teacher was on plum blossoms and plum trees.

[32:11]

So he says, Dogen Zenji says, my old master, the old Buddha, ascended the seat and taught the assembly. When Gautama Buddha's eyeball vanishes, Plum blossoms in snow. Just one branch. Become thorn bushes here, everywhere, right now. Laughing spring wind blows madly. Have you noticed the spring wind laughing and blowing madly? Have you noticed? power lines crashing down because of this laughing, wildly blowing spring wind. Did you know that this was because Gautama Buddha's eyeball vanished? Ru Jing, more than a thousand, well, no, 800 years ago, told us about this.

[33:23]

And that plum blossoms in the snow, just one branch, become thorn bushes here, everywhere, right now. This is the time for all humans and heavenly beings to turn towards attaining the way. Amen. This is the time for all human and heavenly beings to turn towards the way. What time? What time? The time when the Buddha's eyeball vanishes and plum blossoms in snow and the wind blows madly. As the old Buddha's Dharma wheel is turned to the extreme limit of the world, what is the extreme limit of the world?

[34:26]

Who is the extreme limit of the world? Who is it? Who is it? Is it you? Is it me? Is it your every thought? Is it the tip of a petal on a plum blossom? Is it every little gnarle and twist of the plum tree's branches right now? The Dharma wheel is turned to the extreme limit of the world. It is turned into every single particle in the universe and doesn't stop before that. Plumber Alassams teach us that. Dogs teach us that. All our friends and neighbors teach us that.

[35:29]

Even clouds, rain, wind and water, as well as grass, trees and insects do not fail to receive the benefit of this teaching. Heaven, earth and the land are vigorously turned by this Dharma wheel. To hear words never heard before is to hear these words. To attain what has never existed is to attain this teaching. This dharma wheel which turns to the extreme limit of the world and lets us hear what we never heard before cannot be seen or heard without some inconceivable good fortune.

[36:44]

we have the good fortune, perhaps, to hear what we've never heard before and see what we've never seen before, to understand the teaching of the plum tree. And at that moment, each of us, for the sake of all beings, to proclaim that the Buddha has appeared in the world, Know, please know, please get to know, that plum blossoms and the ground are entirely no birth.

[38:27]

Because plum blossoms are no birth, the ground is no birth. Because blossoms and ground are entirely no birth, the Buddha's eyeball is no birth. No birth means unsurpassable wisdom. To hear words you've never heard before means to hear this teaching. Those or to see, is just this moment of plum blossoms in snow. Just one branch. Here, everywhere, right now.

[39:34]

This snow all over the world covers the entire inside and outside of our study. And finally, Ru Jing, Tien Tung, says another story that when the king, Prasenajit, who lived in India long ago, shortly after the Buddha, Gautama Buddha, he invited the venerable Pindola and offered him lunch. And the king said, I've heard that you met the Buddha in person. Is that so?

[40:43]

Pindala answered by raising his eyebrow with his hand. Tien Tung says, raising an eyebrow, he answers the question. He saw Buddha in person and does not deceive. He still receives offerings from the world. that is lunch. Spring lies in the plum twigs accompanied by snow and cold and other things which I mentioned to you earlier.

[41:50]

This story is that King Prasenajit once asked Pindola whether he had seen Buddha or not. To see Buddha means to become Buddha. To become Buddha is to raise your eyebrow. Unless he became Buddha, he could not have raised the eyebrow. having penetrated the Buddha eye, which calmly looks into the meaning of, quotes, seeing Buddha in person, unquote, this spring lies neither in human world nor in Buddha lands, but in plum trees, in dogs, and in men and women,

[43:03]

How do we know this? How do we know this? It's in the raising of the eyebrows of snow and cold. Have you met Buddha in person or not? Meeting Buddha in person means raising the eyebrows. Assisted by the hand or not? Is there some fear of raising eyebrows in this room?

[44:09]

Do you think it would be immodest of you to raise your eyebrows? Is it clear that in raising the eyebrows we have the avoiding of evil, the practicing of good, and the benefiting of all beings?

[45:25]

Where does the authority to raise your eyebrows come from? All living creatures would be relevant to this discussion. It's not a personal authority, even though it's your eyebrows that get raised. And we should not have a, you know, narrow-minded idea of what eyebrow raising means. One time a monk came to the ancient teacher, the great teacher, Matsu, and said, please teach me. And Master Ma said, sometimes I make him raise his eyebrows and blink.

[46:26]

Sometimes I don't make him raise his eyebrows and blink. Sometimes raising the eyebrows and blinking is right. Sometimes raising the eyebrows and blinking is not right. How about you? How about me? How about you? Vowing to avoid evil and to practice good and to benefit all beings is the same as vowing to see Buddha, is the same as vowing to become Buddha.

[48:35]

is the same as vowing to study myself inside out in relationship to all other living beings. Raising the eyebrows can be an expression of this commitment of receiving this teaching. How about you? Are you getting to know you? Are you getting to know yourself in relationship to all living creatures? Is your eyebrow twitching?

[49:45]

Are you seeing Buddha? So I say to myself, please study yourself inside out. Study yourself when you meet dogs, palm trees, and all living beings. Enjoy every story that happens throughout the day. the eyebrow-raising and not-raising Buddha, Master Ma, had a student whose name was Dung Fung, Dung Yun Fung.

[50:56]

And this student was going to take leave of the Master Ma. And Master Ma said to him, Where do you intend to go? And Dung said, I'm on my way to see Shirtou, one of these white plum ancestors. And Master Ma said, the way to Shirtou is slippery. Watch out. Dung said, I will. Bamboo groves and forests are on the way I shall follow. In such places I shall enjoy study. I'll watch the bamboo and the trees."

[52:05]

Finally, he arrived at the place where Surtow was seated in his Zen seat. He walked around Shurto and shook his staff and made this challenge. What school of teaching do you profess? Shurto said, it's fine today. It's fine today. Dung had nothing to say. And he went back home to Master Ma and told him what happened. Master Ma said, please go back now again and see if he says, it's fine today.

[53:15]

If he does say, it's fine today, you must make a deep sigh." So following his teacher's instructions, Dung went back to Shirtou and repeated the same question. What school of Buddhism do you profess? What school of teaching do you profess? And Sirto uttered a deep sigh. And Dung had no words to say. He went back home to Master Ma and told him what happened. Master Ma said, I told you the way to Sirto was slippery.

[54:19]

So I don't feel bad because I know the way of the plum blossom is slippery, easy to slip off and fall into I don't know what. But also the way of the white plum blossom is right under our nose all the time and all around us. All living beings help us find this plum tree and realize Buddha's wisdom. My staff today is an upside-down bamboo tree. My song today is about how to study dogs and plum blossoms.

[55:41]

It's about how to study yourself inside out and realize Buddha's wisdom. And I've used this song before, but now I have the words right before me, so This is a sing-along. It's called Getting to Know You. Getting to know you Getting to know all about you Getting to know like you Excuse me, getting to like you. Let's start over. Getting to know you Getting to know all about you

[56:46]

Getting to like you, getting to hope you like me. Getting to know you, putting it my way, but nicely. You are precisely my cup of tea. Getting to know you Getting to feel free and easy When I am with you Getting to know what to say Haven't you noticed Suddenly I'm bright and breezy because of all the beautiful and new things I'm learning about you day by day. Attention. Yes, Sandra.

[58:12]

Pardon? You don't understand about the eyebrow what? You don't understand? Well, um... I don't either. Does it mean surprise or question? He could have done it like this. So the king asked the monk, you know, I heard that you met the Buddha. Is that true or not? And he could have gone, where he could have gone. Somewhere, maybe from that story, the idea came of that in order to, when you realize, when you become Buddha, then when you become animated,

[59:30]

You smile and lift your eyebrows and blink and stuff like that. You do various things with your body to express yourself. Various ordinary human gestures. And maybe the eyebrow thing came from that story. I'm not sure. Perhaps it was because the eye popped out. Lift your... Yes, all these stories are connected. But I think just the basic idea is that your body, you use your body to animate awakening, that the Dharma wheel turns to the extreme limit of the world, so your facial gestures, your vocalizations and your thoughts become the animation, the manifestation of the Buddhas. you know, your eyebrows, your smile, but also the mountains and the plum trees are also the manifestation of the ancient Buddhas.

[60:39]

So studying yourself is to study the mountains. Studying the mountains is to study yourself. By understanding how the mountains live, you understand how you live. by understanding how the mountains live, you understand about raising your eyebrows. Perhaps, too, in India at the time, it was like the Italians are with very subtle gestures, and the hand can mean something significant, raising the eyebrow. That specific social significance. Yes, I'm seeing the Buddha. I'm looking at you. Yes? In this morning's talk there was frequent mention of practicing good and avoiding evil. I had the impression that one of the

[61:46]

the question of the interesting and appealing aspects of Zen was the non-judgmental aspect. It made it very popular in the West because the Christian tradition and science and logic were all aimed for, oh, this is good, this is bad, this is good. The appeal exam to me was kind of the cessation of that kind of body. Yes. Judging. Yes. But yet we're back to now what is good and what is evil, and how do we determine that? How do you determine what's good and what's evil? Well, you determine what's good and what's evil by your judgmental mind. Right? That's how we do it. But the function of the judgmental mind then leads to the establishment of good and evil.

[62:58]

However, if you understand that the Dharma wheel is turning into the extreme limit of the world, it turns into the function of the discriminating mind which sets up good and evil. The Dharma wheel turns right into that function. And in the extreme limit of that worldly function of the mind calculating good and evil, there is liberation from good and evil by the very fact of studying thoroughly the function of the mind of discrimination and judgment So Buddhism is non-judgmental, but that doesn't mean there's no judgment. It means that the Dharma will turns right into the mind of human beings who have judgments. And when we understand judgment completely, we understand that judgment is not judgment.

[64:03]

And we are liberated from judgment. And we don't have to get rid of judgment, in order to be liberated from it. And so if judgment goes away, we say, bye-bye. When it comes back, we say, hello. How do you do, Mr. Judgment? Have a seat. Do your thing. See you later. In other words, we have a good relationship with the judgmental mind. then we don't need to be entrapped by the judgmental mind. We have the tools through meditation to go beyond the judgmental mind. Right. And then the dharma wheel that you speak of, if you mind speaking a little bit more about it. Is the dharma wheel like our connection to the illusions of this physical plane? And you might speak to me about that. The dharma wheel is the thing that turns

[65:09]

us, our life, into life. It turns our life completely. It's what encourages our life to completely exhaust itself. It encourages our life to roll on itself into complete intimacy with itself. And when life is completely intimate with itself, it drops off life. It frees itself from itself. It forgets itself. And then life is totally liberated. And the Dharma wheel is how we turn into what's happening. Of course, we already are what's happening, but somehow it's a way for us to celebrate the fact of what's happening and completely become intimate with what's happening. And as soon as we're intimate with what's happening, There is spontaneous liberation. Because what's happening is actually liberation.

[66:15]

Bondage is not actual. Bondage is illusory. If it were actual, then we should just settle for bondage and enjoy it. But it's not actual, therefore you don't have to settle for bondage, but you have to settle into bondage in order to be liberated from it. And Buddhas are those who are willing to be 100% in bondage. How is bondage created? By the judgmental mind. Yes? Sort of a side note to the gentleman's first question. One thing that I was curious about was the idea of avoiding evil. One of the things that attracted me to Buddhism was while you're not propagating evil, I understand it to be moving into it and accepting it and not avoiding it, and that by avoiding it,

[67:25]

That's almost the evil in itself. And the relationship, just to be one of entering into rather than an acceptance, not necessarily acting out on it, but accepting the concept of evil as opposed to turning away and denying or fighting. And taking in the darkness and celebrating that. That's . Right. So could you speak about the avoiding of evil? Avoiding of evil, basically what you said is right. Avoiding evil is not a thing you do. If you do the avoiding of evil, then that's you thinking that you can do something, or even you doing good, you thinking that you could do good by yourself. That would be an example of evil. And avoiding that doesn't mean that then you do the thing called avoiding thinking that way.

[68:34]

Avoiding evil would be to admit that you think that way. But you wouldn't like to try to push yourself away from the way you're thinking would be very similar to pushing yourself towards thinking that way. In other words, the concept of you operating independently of all beings is basically evil. That's basically the that way of acting based on the delusion that you can operate independently. All the actions you think you do all by yourself without being supported by all beings, all those actions are basically evil, because they're based on the idea of separation from all the things that support you. They're based on the idea of, well, not all living beings are not relevant to our discussion. I'm just doing this by myself. It's not like everybody's relevant to my behavior. That's kind of evil thought. This is my business, not yours kind of attitude.

[69:39]

But to think that way is just an example of an evil way of thinking. That's an example of it. To avoid evil would be to understand that kind of thinking. Understanding that kind of thinking is not evil. That's just understanding. That's the practice of good. And it also, understanding avoids evil. Understanding evil avoids evil. Understanding the precept of avoiding evil is avoiding evil. And how do you practice that way? How do you understand? Just raise your eyebrows. Raising the eyebrows is, for most of you, an example of avoiding evil. Now, if you think that you do it, if you think that you're raising the eyebrows, I didn't say you raising the eyebrows, I said the raising of the eyebrows. Or maybe I don't know what I said.

[70:41]

Raising of the eyebrows is avoiding evil, practicing good and benefiting all beings. Raising eyebrows is like the plum blossoms in snow. So in Buddhism, if we say avoid something, that would be something that doesn't happen. So evil doesn't really happen. But if you want to know what it is, that's the definition of it. That's how it appears. You take the idea of a person operating by herself and then have her do something, that's the definition of evil. There's no such thing. There's no such woman by herself or man by himself operating independent of all beings. You can't actually establish this person who does things on his own. But if you think that this person can be independent of all beings and therefore can do things, then you've got a situation where evil has been defined.

[71:46]

Avoiding that situation is not another thing which then you do. avoiding that situation is to study that situation until you realize that situation never happens. That's the avoiding of evil, which is already established. You don't have to make avoiding of evil happen. You just have to realize it. You just have to understand that that's really the case. And if you feel like evil's been established, If you study that carefully you will find out that it loses its establishment. It won't hold up to study. Evil will not hold up to study. Good, however, will. But not because it's a fixed thing, but because study is good. About three weeks ago or so we had a lecture that came I can't remember his name, but we have to do some sort of a translation. Yes, a Tibetan teacher.

[72:48]

Correct. And at one point he invited everybody to get the ghost or bad spirit out of the room. Uh-huh. And... And I'm wondering about that, you know. I was raised Catholic, and it was pretty scary about thinking of the devil and bad spirits. I would think that we could live with those bad spirits, you know, and without... been bothering us. Uh-huh. In relation with this conversation, you know, this came back to my mind about clapping three times so these people get up. Right. And, um... So I, you know, it would make me feel much better if I can stand on my cell having a good spiritual session and with these people inside there wondering, you know, after all, Who knows why they're here?

[73:49]

You know, it's got to be for a reason, so why scare them out? Right. And to end this, the other day, some bad thoughts came into me, and I clapped three times. And then I realized, you know, thinking that there are ghosts around here, so I clapped three times and thought, wow, it's all in my mind. And so are you tonight. I think that what we want to do here is, again, realize compassion, right? And the Dharma wheel turns into the extreme limits of the world. It turns into the into every malevolent spirit, too. Okay? And to have a good relationship with malevolent spirits is like having a good relationship with, for example, flies or children.

[74:56]

Now, what does it mean to have a good relationship with a fly? Sometimes it means that... Don't kill it. Don't kill it, right. And sometimes it means that when children are in the meditation hall, you might say, let's go out and play. You take them out of the meditation hall and play in the grass with them. And then the people in the meditation hall maybe go on with their meditation without the children jumping around throwing balls around at people while they're sitting. Flies, sometimes, you can catch them in a cup or something and take them outside if they're annoying you by buzzing around and tempting you to eliminate them from the living. It may be a good relationship with a fly if it's annoying you, particularly if the fly is distracting you from your meditation. That's not good for the fly, bad karma for the fly. It's good to put the fly outside where it won't bother anybody. And that may be a good relationship with the fly.

[76:03]

So, if the malevolent spirits are in the room and we have enough of a Buddha It may be that the malevolent spirits will say, okay, I give up, I'm not a malevolent spirit anymore, I want to be a disciple of Buddha, and they sit down and be good little spirits. And that may be the case. But it may also be the case that during a certain ceremony you may ask them to go outside, just for a little while, they can come back in later. Malevolent spirits are spirits. They're not material things that we're talking about, and they are about our own mind. Demons are whatever we have far away from whatever we push away. But there are things like that that we push away, so why don't we admit them and ask them to go away for a while? They'll come back. They're still in relationship to us, but sometimes it helps to recognize them, in some sense honor them, and say, you know, You people actually aren't interested in the ceremony anyway, are you? You beings aren't really that interested in the ceremony, and they say, no, actually we're not.

[77:08]

We have other things that are more interesting to us. I say, well, why don't you go do them for a little while? We'd like that, please. We'll even feed you if necessary. But not right now. We'll feed you later at a different ceremony, which we do here called feeding the ghosts. So a good relationship with malevolent spirits, with children, with men and women, with Buddhists and non-Buddhists, with trees, we should have a good relationship with everything. That's called wisdom. Okay? That's realizing what things are and being freed of what we think about them and therefore having a good relationship. Because we're no longer... enslaved by what we think malevolent spirits are, by what we think flies are, by what we think children are. So if this makes a good relationship, fine. If it doesn't, let's do something else. Let's take a flame and make a circle with it.

[78:10]

Let's tap dance. Let's sing. Let's do whatever would be the proper relationship with each being. There's different varieties of malevolent spirits. Let's have the appropriate thing for each one. Not push them away, unless that's a good relationship. Some people like to be pushed away sometimes. Sometimes that's what they're asking. They say, push me away. Say, okay, I'll do that service. I'll push you away. But it's not that you're really pushing them away. This is your relationship, which they're up for. Then it's a good relationship. If they don't want to do it that way, well, let's find out what the proper relationship is. Sometimes we enjoy the plum blossoms blossoming. Sometimes we enjoy the plum blossoms falling. you know, it's a different relationship depending on what the plum tree is doing. So a lot of people are attracted to Buddhism because they hear it's non-judgmental, that it's not in this evil stuff, that it's not in, like, trashing bad spirits, and it's not, that's right.

[79:15]

That's why I bring these things up, for you to realize that your idea of what it means to not be judgmental is... is not your idea. Your idea of what non-judgmental is is another judgment. Being non-judgmental is far beyond all of our ideas of non-judgmental. Being non-judgmental means sometimes you go, and you go, one, two, three, and you go, judge. You judge all the way to the limit of judge, all the way to the maximum judging. You do that judging thing. And then you're free of judging. Buddha can judge completely at the moment of judging, and then it's all over. Yes. I have a question about saying no.

[80:18]

I have to follow this thread a little bit. No! No, a bad thing. But the thing about making a decision to push away, that's just being asked and saying no. Yes. And not separating. yourself away from the thing or person that you're saying no to. You're saying no to that behavior. You're saying no to that lifestyle. You're saying no to that person who's damaging. The no part is one part of that relationship, but sometimes it seems to me that it can get stuck in that so that you really do feel... Now I've cut you out of my universe and I'm not in a relationship to you because I can't affect you.

[81:22]

I don't know how to affect this thing that I judge as being harmful. Well, you do. You are affecting it by saying no. That has an effect. Every no has an effect, every yes has an effect. But you can say no to somebody without separating and you can use the no to connect. For some people, saying no is the way to connect. I use the example of, you know, my daughter, when she was two, just learning how to walk, when she was one, I didn't have to say anything to her about where to go, because she couldn't go anyplace. But when she could walk, she could go places. So we were walking down the street one day, so she decided to go in the street. I didn't tell her about that street before she could go in it. So she starts walking into the street, and a truck's coming. So I say... No! Like that. She stops immediately and comes back.

[82:23]

That was a no to express my connection with her and the truck and the street. And I wasn't angry at her. I treasure her life. So I enacted... So her benefit, the violence that would happen to her if she goes into the street, so she can feel that energy that's beyond what she can cope with, that happens if she goes in the street. She got the idea. Street means too much energy. Stay awake. You know, off-the-charts energy is street. I never told her again not to go in the street until she was much bigger. And then we could talk to her and say, don't cross the street. without us. And she's very active, independent, you know her, a person. But when it comes to streets, she never had any problem not crossing them until she was a big, you know, young woman.

[83:32]

And same with electric sockets. When she first put her finger near an electric socket, I did that same no, and I never had to say it again. She got the message that there's high, violent energy around that thing. And she just never stuck her finger anywhere near there again. So that's a no, but it was a connecting no. It was a no based on connection. It wasn't separating, it was our relationship. If you push somebody away and say no, that's a relationship. And if you understand that, then it's a yes, or it's a way to realize connection through getting away from the person. If you weren't connected from the person who is doing that thing you say no to, you don't have to get away. It's because of your connection that you have to go away. It's because of your connection that you have to tell them no. If you understand that, then you're not fooled by words that you're saying yourself or others are saying. No doesn't mean no. But yes means yes.

[84:36]

So if I say, can I come to your house and take all your stuff and burn it? And then can I come to the Zen Center and damage all the buildings? And you say, no, you have to leave Green Gulch now. Let's just imagine. Let's just imagine. You may not leave here if that's what you're going to do. Yes, right. In that moment, there is a connection, but then you have exiled me from Green Gulch. Yes. Then where's the connection? Well, the connection then is, I guess, probably that you're thinking about Green Gulch a lot, and I'm thinking about you a lot, because I don't very often exile people from Green Gulch. We recently exiled somebody from Green Gulch who came in here, who did go into my house, and, you know, This is a person who was a regular member of our community. He didn't live here, but he came in here a lot. He's written very good articles on Buddhism.

[85:40]

But he became demented and got on drugs and stuff. And he came in my house and went into my bedroom and did various things. And went into my daughter's room and offered her drugs and stuff like that. And so I said, I had the director say, he can't come to Green Gulch anymore. He also... sort of drew off one of our students down to his house and gave this student some drugs through hypodermic needles, and this person has AIDS. This scared us. We thought, this is too much. And he also threatened the life of myself and some other people. So we said no, but that intensified our connection with him a great deal. We were thinking about him all the time. And he was thinking about us all the time. And I was the big stupid habit of nothing for a while. So our relationship intensified when he started pushing on what was appropriate. And I had, personally, as an authority figure, I had to take a strong line and say, this is not acceptable.

[86:46]

And he said, oh, you mean if I straighten up and fly right, all will be forgiven? And I said, yeah, right. If your behavior becomes appropriate, you can come back at some point. But first of all, you have to recognize what you did and, you know, basically, sincerely change and drop this stuff, which, you know, he hadn't been like that for a whole time. He had a long relationship with us. But he never, he hasn't been able to do that yet. So he is, his relationship with me, anyway, got a lot more intense and connected, in a way, through this exiling. So... But, you know, again, he was... Because he was on drugs and stuff, I felt like that's about all I could do. Again, my daughter one time said... Let's take all the dishes and stuff and break them and put them in Mommy's bed.

[87:48]

And I said... Okay, let's do it. And she said, no. I think if you're really willing to go with somebody on certain things, they'll often change their mind in the process. But in this particular case, he wasn't doing it with me. He was doing it to other people. So if he wanted to come to me and offer me drugs, that would be okay. I might have a hard time coping with what that meant. As a matter of fact, he was saying things to me that I had a hard time knowing how to respond to at that time. He was telling me how enlightened he was and stuff like that. And I didn't know quite how to put it. I didn't know quite how to respond to it. Because if I just sort of say, oh, come on,

[88:48]

this is really weird, that isn't necessarily quite right. I just couldn't find my footing with him in my relationship to him, but I was working at it. When he started to threaten the safety of younger people, I somehow, he wasn't doing that with me anymore. And then I said, if you're going to do that, forget it. But if somebody wants to do something, I'll go with them a ways down the path of evil, you know, to see if they really want to do it. And if they're doing it with me, then they're not doing it anymore, you know. If we're doing it together, then everything starts changing. Is that because you're staying with yourself so clearly and in a relationship with them? What keeps you from being pulled over into it? Well, one thing that keeps me from being pulled over into it is the sense of doing it together.

[89:53]

I think that's the main thing. Because if I'm not interested, then I'm pulled over into it by being attached to being not interested. That seems like a kind of protection, like if somebody wants to do something that doesn't really attract you, you're not that interested in it, and you say, well, this isn't tempting to me. But you're tempted in the sense of holding yourself away from it by lack of interest. You're still not really participating. The way to really participate is sincerely to do it together. Everything starts changing then, if you really start opening it up. Because then if we're doing it together, then maybe we should bring some other people into this. Basically bring everybody into it. And if you bring everybody into it, then almost nothing can stand up and be evil anymore. I mean, if everybody wanted to kill a fly... You know, would that be possible? I mean, if you included the fly, for example, and all the fly's relatives.

[90:57]

Would you really come up with a conclusion? Everybody, all sentient beings, agree that this being should be killed. Well, such a killing is not really killing anymore. But, you know, it's very rare that you can get everybody to agree to it. And if you get everybody to agree to it, then why even do it? Why don't you just stop breathing? Save us the trouble. So the fly may say, okay. So I just think that's the main thing, is just bring everything to it, bring everything to the situation. And if you're willing to make that effort, then the precepts are followed, you know? You're not stealing, you're not lying, and so on. So if I say to you, I want to light my hand on fire, I want you to do it with me. You light your hand on fire, I'll light my hand on fire. You're saying I'm going to light my hand on fire? You're going to light your hand on fire and I'm going to light my hand on fire. Oh, wait a minute. I'm your friend, but I've got a problem with lighting my hand on fire.

[92:00]

I thought you just said you were going to participate fully. I am, and this is my way of participating fully. I'm telling you, I've got problems with lighting my hand on fire. but I'm, you know, I actually, I'm joining this project, I'm going with you in this project, but right away I got a problem. It's the same as when people come here to practice Buddhism, right? They come here to practice Zen meditation, and they try, and they say, gee, I'm having a hard time doing it, they got all these problems, you know, I have resistances, and I don't understand, and I just, I don't have enough energy, and I, blah, blah, blah. They have problems, they want to do it, they're doing it with me, and I'm doing it with them, but they can't do it, they say it. So, I mean, wait a second now. Are you saying you want to burn your hand and I want to join you in this? And the only way I can join you is if I'm kind of like at the same level of development in this thing as you? Or do you want me to come with you? Yeah, I want you to burn your... If you don't burn your hand, I'm not your friend. If you're my friend, you'll burn your hand with me. Right, but I'm just saying I got some problems with that. If you're my friend, will you bring me along in my low state of development? In my kind of lack of zeal?

[93:01]

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