I have talked with you about the first aspect of the eightfold path which is called right view or right understanding. And this aspect of the path is in one sense a foundation for the whole enterprise and in another sense it's the culmination, it's under the heading of the fourth truth, the truth that there is a path leading to unassailable, unshakable freedom.

[01:09]

And that truth is both the foundation for the path and it is the understanding of the four noble truths. Because as a foundation it is a kind of moral philosophy, it's not strictly speaking a ethical practice but it is the moral philosophy which if one had such a moral philosophy one then would then engage in ethical practices. So ethical practices are the foundation for the path but the moral philosophy is the foundation for practicing ethics. So before one practices ethics one in this presentation receives the teaching of the

[02:20]

karma. The Sanskrit word for right view or right understanding is samyak drishti, the Pali is sama diti and drishti or diti mean view but they also mean like a philosophical view, a philosophical understanding. And there's many ways to talk about what philosophy is but in this case philosophy means, you know, your view of the state of affairs, the way you see things actually are. So if you're doing this practice do you see that the way things are is that you are being

[03:42]

presented with a law of karma? Do you see that? Is this the way things are in a sense that you're being presented with this? And then how are things, how is it now that you've been presented with that? What is the state of affairs around that? And this state of affairs will be the foundation of your practice. The way you accept the teaching of karma for example, how you accept the teaching that actions have result, the way you receive the teaching that good actions lead to good results and bad actions lead to bad results, the way you receive the teaching that the effects of action manifest in three times, the way you receive that will be in fact the same

[04:45]

as your philosophy, your actual philosophy. You may think, oh this is my philosophy but in fact your actual philosophy is the way you actually receive what's happening. So again, what's happening is you're being told these laws and the way you receive them is your philosophy. If you receive them literally, I mean if you really take them literally then that's a certain way that things will be for you. If you reject them literally, if you don't take a position of affirming or denying but you are very interested in studying them, then your philosophy is the state of affairs that you are interested in studying the laws of karma. Your philosophy then is the basis of whether or not you study the teachings. I don't know, anyway, it seems to me that it is undeniable that the teaching of Right

[06:01]

View is that one would… no, it's not even a teaching, I would say it is an undeniable fact that your philosophy is in fact the way you work with the law of karma. That is your philosophy by definition. And you could infer by people's conduct how they understood it, even if they didn't tell you, you might be able to infer their understanding of it, but their expressions of it would help, I think I understand, because even the way they talk would give you more information about how they received the teachings of karma and so on, whether they really thought

[07:03]

nirvana had been attained by anybody and whether it could be attained by practice. So I am going to stop there for a second and see if you understood what I just said. Was that crystal clear? Yeah? Will you broke disagreement? Will I? Yeah. I think that it might be possible for someone, maybe in the context of this practice, you could say that for somebody engaged in Buddhist practice to be presented with this, then this would be a defining event. But I could see that somebody in the world might just simply not accept this as a defining issue of their practice. You might hear about it and they say, well… Yes, but that is their philosophy, that's what I'm saying. Whether the person is a Buddhist or not, if they hear the Four Noble Truths and aren't

[08:06]

interested in them, even if they don't reject them, even if they say… Like one of the Buddhist first encounters was with a person and he told him about what happened and the guy just walked off. That is a reflection of that guy's philosophy. The way that guy thought, in other words, his understanding, the way things were for him is that what this guy was saying to him was not worth listening to. That's his philosophy. If you hear, whether you're a Buddhist or not, the Four Noble Truths, if you hear the law of karma and you don't listen, that's a reflection of your philosophy. Your philosophy is, the way things are for you is, this is not a life and death message. That's what I'm saying. It can sometimes be, I can't hear this as a life and death message right now. Pardon? I said, it might be, right now, I can't hear this as a life and death message. This is not… Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This event, this hearing of it, isn't defining for my reality. Yeah, and I'm saying that is your philosophy, at that moment.

[09:08]

That is the way things are for you. That's why I'm using the word philosophy, that everybody is non-stop a philosopher. You all, every moment, you have an idea of what is true, and if someone tells you something and you don't think it's important, you think that's true. Are you equating philosophy with your experience of light, is that what you mean? No. No? More than just your experience, your understanding of what's happening. Like for example, let's say you have a pain, okay, now that's not your philosophy, that's just a pain. But if you think that pain means that you should run out of the room, your determination that you should run out of the room based on that pain is an example of what you think is happening. What you think is happening is that you think there's a pain and you think the reality of the situation is you should leave the room, and you act on that. And you call that philosophy. Yeah. That's what you think, that's what you think is the wise thing to do, based on what you think is true. Yeah, I never heard philosophy explained this way, because for most, for a lot of people I think philosophy is an intellectual concept, something that they think about, or talk about.

[10:13]

It is an intellectual, it is an intellectual concept, and I am not presenting you with an intellectual concept. Oh, I know that. You're not. Huh? You are not. I am. Oh, you are. I'm telling you an intellectual concept. I'm starting the class off with an intellectual concept. I'm saying that Right View is the correct philosophy, okay? And the correct philosophy has to start with your philosophy. And everybody has a philosophy, and your philosophy is what you think is happening. Now Right View is when your philosophy is about what's happening in such a way that you understand the Four Noble Truths. So for example, if what is happening for you and it's not worth listening to the Four Noble Truths, then I'm not saying you can't understand the Four Noble Truths if you won't listen to them, but maybe you won't be able to. You might be able to. Walk out the door and a star tell you the Four Noble Truths, it's possible.

[11:14]

But anyway, I'm just saying that what you're working with is what you think is the state of affairs. That's an intellectual concept which I've presented with you, and I'm saying that that is your view. That's your view. That's your understanding. And are you suggesting that through our interaction with the Four Noble Truths and the various things that you've presented, reincarnation or rebirth and karma, that we may more accurately perceive our philosophy through the mirror, through the interaction of this to these concepts? Am I saying that? I don't know if I said that, but I would say that. However, I would also say that you might become more aware of your philosophy, of your views, if I presented you anything. I could present you anything, and then I could ask you, what do you think is the state of

[12:15]

affairs? As you know, in many Zen stories, the teacher presents the students with something, like for example, strangles them, or yells at them, or kisses them, or calls them, you know, enlightened or stupid, and through that interaction, the person becomes quite aware of what they think is the state of affairs. The teacher often will help the person become aware of what they think is the state of affairs. People are not generally aware of their philosophy. Most people do not think that they're philosophers, and everybody is a philosopher because nobody doesn't have a philosophy. Nobody doesn't have something that they think is true or false. People do not operate that way, that's what I've been saying for some time now. We all do think certain things are true or not, and when it comes to reincarnation, you do not have to say that is true or not true.

[13:16]

When it comes to rebirth, you do not have to say it is true or it's not true. But if you don't say one or the other, that is your philosophy, that you're choosing not to affirm or deny, that's what you think is the state of affairs. So the reality situation doesn't warrant you affirming or denying, which is fine, but that is a philosophical position. You do or you do not think it's of any worth to be in this practice period. Or you don't know if it is or not, you're just experimenting, trying it out. That's not a philosophical position. Yes? So I think that the problem that I'm having with this discussion, I don't necessarily want to prolong it, because I don't think it's necessarily germane to the material you're presenting, which I think really focuses on the response of somebody in the context

[14:18]

of Buddhist practice. But I think the problem that I'm having is that there's a presumption that people function and even think on the basis of rational criteria. So if... I'm not saying that. Well, but I'd like to just say why I think you are. When we talk about philosophy, usually we're talking about conceptualizations, intellectualizations or concepts of ideas. And sometimes people do define their behavior, their thinking, and their interests around their intellectual constructs. But sometimes even what people are willing to think about isn't defined on the basis of intellectual constructs. In that case, people's take on things isn't being motivated by their philosophy, but it's being motivated by feeling states or dinner or something like that.

[15:20]

Your definition of philosophy, maybe somebody agrees with you, maybe you can get several people to agree with you, but it's not my definition. My definition includes the way you feel about things. Okay? If I do something to you and you feel funny about it, and you think it's true what you feel about it, I would say that's your view of the situation, and I'm calling that your philosophy. If you say philosophy is only rational thinking, feeling is a rational function. It's not an irrational function. You understand that? I just feel that this discussion is focused around the use of language. I thought that for a moment I thought we were talking about something substantive, but I feel now that we're just talking about how we want to use words in the context of the discussion. I'm perfectly willing for you to define how the words will be used in your presentation. Okay. So, the way I'm using the word philosophy is it's your current view of what is true.

[16:21]

You can come up with that rationally through thought, through thinking, or through feelings. You can also come up with it irrationally, like you're going to smell something and feel that there's some danger, some really... You can smell something. Of course, that's rational too. Yes, Catherine? Do you think belief is what you're saying for us? Yeah. Belief. You could say belief. You can look at what you believe to be true. Yeah. Your drishti, your view of what is true, your belief. It's easier when you look at philosophy, it seems like radios somehow. Right. I think part of the reason why I'm using that is I think people do not take responsibility for their positions. Beliefs. And sometimes they even have what I would call philosophical positions. In other words, they have epistemological positions.

[17:23]

They assume certain basis for what they're making their decisions about, their knowledge about. That's a philosophical operation of their mind. They may not think of it that way, but that's what we call the way they're thinking. And people have epistemologies, people have ontologies, and so on. They have belief systems, and if they have all this going on with them, they don't necessarily know about it. But basically, I propose that you do have these views, beliefs, and so on. And the right view is something that grows up out of the right view being a view which will understand the Four Noble Truths, which will understand the path to liberation. The right view, which is the foundation of the path to liberation, part of that is to become aware of what you do believe is true. Then again, being presented with karma, how true or untrue do you think karma is?

[18:27]

How do you think that is operating? And the way you see that will determine your practice. And a key thing that I'm trying to point out to you is that if you can be aware of how true you think it is, that will help you develop right view. You do not have to change your view one iota from what it is, but I don't think you can have right view without being aware of what your view is. Now, let's say somebody theoretically had exactly the same view as the Buddha had, that some enlightened being had, about the teaching of karma. They knew a lot about it, and they handled it and responded to it just like certain enlightened people, but didn't know it. I would say that that would be not quite sufficient, that they need to understand that they had

[19:35]

the position, and that could happen. A person could ask them what their position was, and then they could say, I don't know. And then the person could say, well, tell me more about that. And gradually, their position could be revealed to them. Then, if their position was in fact aligned with the position that would enlighten them, and they knew it, then they would have the ground for the whole rest of the practice. So, karma, okay? There is a world of karma, and that means that there is a world where people think in terms of, I do something. There is a world like that, at least for me. I know about that world. And when I talk to people, it sounds like other people live in a very similar world, a world where they think, I do this, I think that. I make this physical gesture. I make this vocalization. I think this. This is a world, and when I hear about that from them, it sounds just like my world like

[20:38]

that, and that's the world of karma. Right view operates in that world, partly. Part of the realm of right view is in that world, that dualistic world of self and other and personal action. That's part of where right view hangs out. Also, in that world of self and other, there is a teaching coming from someplace, from over there or in here. It's coming from someplace. It's not coming from everything. It's coming from a Buddhist or the Buddha or some Buddhist teacher or some Buddhist book, or it's coming up out of you. Anyway, it's in the same world, in that same dualistic world of self and other, there's a teaching of how that works. It's called the teaching of karma. Okay? That teaching is in some ways quite simple, and also in some ways, it's as complicated, it's exactly as complicated as the world, because the world is exactly the results of

[21:42]

that process. So, in some sense, the basic principles are very simple, but how they get played out is simply equal to the complexity of the universe. It's identical. The universe, the dualistic universe, that is. So, again, right view is developed in that world where things are like that, and where the laws are being presented in that world of how that world works. And if anybody doesn't know about that world, then we would say, this person is the person we most worry about, a person who doesn't know about that world. Almost nobody doesn't, so we don't have to worry too much. But there's another type of person that we do find, and that kind of person is a person who lives in a world where they think, I do things, but they do not accept, they won't even work with, they won't even listen to, given, again, what I would say, their view, their philosophy, I would say, allows them to sort of reject the teaching of karma.

[22:47]

In other words, they reject that action, that in this world where they think they're separate and they think they can act, they reject that that action has effects. This is the person the Buddhist teachers, Buddhist ancestors, most worry about. This is the most difficult to help person. This is that person's response to that teaching in that world. This person is unwilling to interact with the teaching. They're unwilling to notice that they're interacting with the teaching. They tell themselves they're not interacting. Actually, they're resisting, right, in a certain way. But they don't even pay attention to that they're resisting. They will not give any attention to it. They totally ignore what's happening in that realm. This is the most difficult person to help. So I'm not telling you how to interact with these teachings, but what I am strongly encouraging

[23:56]

you to do is be aware of how you do interact with these teachings, because the way you interact with it is how you develop right view. That struggle between you and these laws of karma, the way you interact with these laws of karma, the way you either accept them blindly and don't be aware of how that works or reject them, the way you work, that can be the source of right view, but you have to be aware of how that works. So if you reject the teachings of karma and you're aware of how that works, you will notice that there are effects. So I think you will learn to see that there is value in the teaching of karma, not that it's so the way you thought it was when you first heard it, because maybe it isn't the way you thought it was when you first heard it, but that your interaction with it will reveal its truth. And that will be the basis for you to engage in all kinds of other practices with a lot of energy, which will support then your right view even more.

[24:59]

So if you accept and start working with the teaching of karma, you will naturally, I think, I would think, maybe there's different kinds of people, but anybody who puts energy into interacting with the teaching of karma is experimenting with the teaching of karma, is experimenting with the laws, consciously working with it, and you'll start getting interested. You'll start noticing that you're a scientist in a sense, or an artist in a sense, with this material. And you'll start getting artworks and do experiments and get results, you'll start learning. And you'll start experimenting with, of all things, doing good, which you might not have been into before, because you didn't, that wasn't, you know, I don't know. But anyway, you might just say, well, why don't I just, for the heck of it, be good for a few weeks, or a minute. And so you do those experiments, you try it, and you say, oh, that works a certain way, you know. And then you say, well, I think, well, you know, I don't usually think this way, but I think I'll do something bad. You know, I know they say it three times, but, you know, maybe I'll try a few of those experiments they say

[26:02]

where you get results in this life, I'll do a few of those. So you start experimenting with good and bad, and you start learning. And you might, as a result of that, you might come to the conclusion that it would be good to actually take on a discipline to enhance your study, because there are certain things you can learn from disciplines of doing good karma that you can't learn from just sort of hit and miss doing good karma. So you might take on a discipline, a practice, and make an agreement with somebody or bodies about the practice you're going to do, and then learn from that. That way. Or you might take a discipline of being bad, and see how that works. I actually did that when I was 12. I took on an intentional discipline to do as much bad as possible until I was too old to get by with it. When I was that age, you could do anything, and basically all they'd do is arrest you and release you. And you'd get famous, and get a lot of... Your social standards would just go up higher and higher in my neighborhood, anyway. Because I lived in a neighborhood where nobody did anything wrong. So, anyway, I consciously took on the...

[27:06]

It was a discipline of doing bad, and I did it for just a little while, and I could see where it went, and I stopped. It was actually quite easy, and fun. But I saw that the real challenge, the real game, the better game, the more interesting game, the more challenging game, the fantastic game, was doing good. Which is very hard, and I kept forgetting to do it. But anyway, I won't go into detail how easy it was to be bad, but anyway, I tried those experiments. But still, it wasn't a discipline thing. And then I did some things where there was a discipline. Disciplining yourself and doing good, then, is a really... Well, this is really interacting in a coherent way with the laws of karma. And Mipham Chodron has a really interesting quote, something like, the Buddha said something like, for some, discipline is pleasant. For some, discipline is suffering. Those who, you know, diligently practice their discipline,

[28:08]

find it to be pleasurable. Those who do not practice their discipline, find it to be suffering. Anyway, experimenting in this way, this is experimenting with the laws of karma, basically. This is in the dualistic world. Are you following this? In the dualistic world, this is the way to experiment. As a result of these experiments, more and more energy put into experiments, more and more data coming back, we find out, by that kind of energetic effort in this way, we find out that discipline in good is actually good. And we do it more. And you do it more and more and more, until finally, you have a situation where you get to understand the laws of karma and understand that they're actually only a law of a world of delusion. They're only laws within the world where you are separate from others. And then one has the opportunity, by thoroughly practicing in the realm of karma and respecting the laws of karma,

[29:09]

respecting them very strongly and lovingly, learning about them, one enters into another kind of practice of right view, which is the way things are. Not only you understand even better the way things are in the realm of duality, but now you understand the way things are free of that duality. Then right view is the right view of the whole situation that gives rise to the workings of the dualistic world. And one has wisdom. As part of developing this excellent practice of good, based on receiving the teachings of karma and working with them intensively, for all the other seven aspects of the Eightfold Path, they are the practice of the philosophy that it's a good idea to study the laws of karma. And then those practices create an actual practice and an actual engagement.

[30:17]

Right view is not the actual engagement with the laws. The other ones are more like the engagement with it. Except for, actually, the second one, right thinking or right motivation is also more like wisdom. So, anyway, that's kind of like foundational... That's a view of the foundational quality of view or understanding of the whole path. And, actually, not just the path, but it's understanding of the situation in which the path works, at least the beginning of the path. The beginning of the path works in the world of karma. Okay? Okay. You just described something that sounded like the fruition or your placement

[31:24]

as a result of working with karma. You just described it. I'm wondering if you could describe it again. You said that all of this working with karma is working within duality. And yet, by working with it in this way, another view might result, which I see that. Could you describe that again? You covered it pretty quickly. Yes, you did. So, anyway, there's... What is it? Again, it's this basic breakdown. A living being has two options. One is samsara. Samsara is where you, you know, where you, what, believe in self, believe in independent self. Confused. Huh? Confused. What did I say? Where you have independent self. You believe. But you cling to this belief. Yes. You have it.

[32:25]

Right, you cling. You cling to the belief in independent self. In that world, okay? So, because you believe in... You don't have to say cling. Believe is enough. Anyway, if you want to add cling, fine. Believe means you believe it's true. That's pretty clingy. But anyway, if you want to add cling to believing that it's true, fine. This is the realm of samsara, okay? This is the realm of karma. I do that. Karma. Karma. That's that realm. So you want to know, how is it that if you study how this, this, this, the belief in self, okay, you studied that, and one of the ways you study the belief in self is by watching how that belief leads to how I do that, and how suffering arises from believing in self, even before you do anything,

[33:26]

and how suffering arises from karma, even before you get the results, and then also when you get the results. So delusion. I believe in me. Delusion leads to I'm independent. The entire world is not helping me. I got to take charge of the situation. I do that. Karma. Results. Results come back at me. Then I decide, okay, since the results are coming back at me, I got to do something about that. More karma, more results. That's samsara, okay? Studying the law of karma, the teachings of karma, how karma works in it, helps you understand this process. When you understand the process of that thoroughly, you see the pinnacle arising. Okay. Fully? Can you see the arising of self or just the pinnacle arising of the world? You see, well, you see the pinnacle arising of the self. You see the pinnacle arising of karma. You see the pinnacle arising of the world that comes from the karma.

[34:26]

You see all that. You see the pinnacle arising. When you see the pinnacle arising here, you see dharma right, you see dharma right in the middle of all this. You see dharma right there. When you see dharma, okay, you stop messing with the situation. You trust it. You trust what's happening. You see how everything supports you. You don't think I have to do anything anymore. You also understand you're still going to get slugged, incited, and punished because of all the time you spent doing things from I believe in me and I got to do this. That produces results. Now you see, like the Buddha got sick at the end of his life, but he didn't say, oh, damn it. He knew where that stuff was coming from. He knew that his difficulties were coming from his longstanding professional activity

[35:27]

of doing things as an independent operator. He understood that, so he didn't begrudge it. As a matter of fact, as I said last time, he was happy that this was happening rather than what would happen if it didn't happen now, if it happened later. So by studying this situation that I just described, by receiving the teachings of karma and applying them to your situation, you'll see dharma here. When you see dharma here, you see Buddha. You see Buddha. You see nirvana. When you see dharma in the middle of the world of karma, that vision is right view. That's right view. When you have right view, you see nirvana. And the path to go from this situation to go over to here is called right view, and so on. Right view is what takes you over there. And the beginning of right view is you don't yet see the pinnacle arising of samsara. You don't see the pinnacle arising of your misery. But you're willing to at least receive the teaching which says

[36:30]

if you believe in yourself, you're deluded. And if you believe in yourself, you think you can do karma. And if you think you can do karma, you believe in yourself. Believing in yourself entails misery. You're in a situation where you're driving yourself to do things which are going to cause you more trouble. This is the teaching. However, if you do wholesome things, that will promote you being able to see how this situation works. If you do unwholesome things, it will make it harder for you to see how the laws of karma work. So if you accept the laws of karma, at least on an experimental basis, the laws of karma would say, if you do wholesome things, if you do good things, one of the benefits, one of the good results you get from good things is you'll be able to see more clearly the laws of karma. If you do unwholesome things, one of the worst things that will happen as a result of that is you won't be able to see the effects of doing bad things. Why? Can you go into that a little bit more? Why is it that you can see the good effects better than the bad effects? It's because, you know, let me take the simple approach first, okay? If you do bad things, you get bad results.

[37:33]

The worst result, from the point of view of liberation, is that you don't see how karma works. To do a bad thing and then have it get a bad result, among the various bad results, the worst one is that you wouldn't be able to see that the bad result came from your action. But that's the thing about doing bad things, is that you get a bad result. And one of the bad results is, the worst bad result is you don't see if the bad result came from what you did. Because we don't want to. We don't want to see the good thing. That's another bad thing. So since you don't want to see bad things, well, denial is one aspect of it. Sometimes you do bad things and you get bad things you know about, but your ability to know, your ability to see, that when you did a bad thing, you got a bad result, that ability to see that is coming from doing good things. You must have done some good things to see that when you did a bad thing, it had a bad result. And in fact, every time you see, I made a mistake, that was really bad, and now I'm in trouble because of it. Every time you see that, that's a result of some good thing you did,

[38:37]

which gives you the vision to see how karma works. So that's why in this realm, part of the story is, if you want to understand this realm, then do good, because the best good of doing karma is the good of being able to see how karma works. That's the best kind of good. There's other kinds of good like being good-looking, rich, having a nice family, good health, people being nice to you, all that stuff, that's the result too. But the best good in this world, in this world of samsara, in the world of self and other, in the world of clinging to self, the best result is to be able to see how that world is. Namely, that there's suffering entailed in your self-clinging. And the primary driver of that is that self-clinging is delusion, and as suffering arises, there's delusion, but that delusion also leads to karma, which creates really horrendous situations, and also keeps the thing going. If you had delusion and didn't act upon it,

[39:40]

there wouldn't be karma. And that's maybe... I don't know. So, you see now, Rob? Well, a little bit. I missed your last question. But... What is... You're identifying karma with dependent co-arising. Karma... No, karma is not dependent co-arising. Karma is something that a person who doesn't understand dependent co-arising does. I just told you about the dependent co-arising of karma. But karma is not dependent co-arising. Karma is dependently co-arisen. And how does karma dependently co-arise? It depends on a person who thinks she's independent and can act alone. That's the main ingredients. Oh, and also, thinks she's independent, but then a corollary of thinking you're independent is thinking other people aren't helping you, thinking that you've got to do things on your own, thinking you have your own personal power, and you're going to do something to fix a situation which is painful. Okay? And also, another part of dependent co-arising in karma is you don't think that your pain is due to the fact

[40:43]

that you think you're independent. So that's all part of the dependent co-arising of karma. The laws of karma are sub... The way karma works, that's dependent co-arising, on the human action scale. Dependent co-arising is universal. A subtext of dependent co-arising is the law of karma. The laws of karma are the laws of the dependent co-arising of the world for us. The laws are about dependent co-arising. But karma itself, although it's dependent co-arises, it's about how we don't believe Buddha's teaching of dependent co-arising. We might believe dependent co-arising about stars and spaceships and, you know, landslides, but that's not what karma is about. Karma is about how that stuff is a result of personal action. In other words, personal action means the result of the delusion of personal action. Delusion of personal action that leads to karma. To think that you can act by yourself, that's the delusion, the basis of karma. Then you act,

[41:44]

then you create this illusory activity called karma and it leads to results which come back and those results then are just exactly the kind of results which say, keep it up, do it again. You know, they're just the kind of results that keep you sucking on that same samsaric thing. They're built to keep you to do again, say, well, you know, it shouldn't be this way and I can do something about it. So it keeps you going, keeps you going, keeps you going and you try again and you get another result which is just perfect for making you go, come on kid, try again. That's samsaric. So enticing. It's perfectly built to get you to keep it going. It's about keeping going, keeping going, keeping going. That's all it cares about is more and more and more of the same thing. The teaching is to point that that's what it's like. Notice this. Now, how you respond to that then will be your view. When your view is right, then you really, it isn't that you go, oh, that's right. It's that you receive it in a way that you should receive everything.

[42:44]

Namely, this balanced way. If you receive the teaching of karma in a balanced way, your right view will flourish. You'll understand rapidly the laws. You'll learn so fast. You'll get many, many examples every day. Instead of one a week, you'll get thousands a day. And so you'll learn very fast if you have the right response. So then your right view will get stronger and stronger and you will soon see the pinnacle arising of samsara, which is the vision of nirvana, which is the world then where you don't see yourself as independent, where you see everybody helping you and you realize you can never do anything by yourself ever. Never such a thing. This is unassailable bliss. We're just here all working together, all helping each other. You're all helping me. I'm helping all of you. But I'm not even helping you by myself. You're helping me help you. It's very relaxing. But if we still believe, deep down, you know, okay, that's cute, but deep down, we really think,

[43:47]

no, I really, this is not a, actually, when it's not pleasant, it breaks, right? Yeah, it's nice when everything's swell, but when they start, when they put the screws, when the screws come, then it's kind of like, no, I gotta, no. But you see, that's it. That's the result, the karmic result, which says, no, you can't, you can't see things as interdependent. No. Get down, get down. Okay, now I'm back, and I can do interdependence again. But karma, karma produces exactly the things which provoke you to say, I'll do this interdependence thing later. You know, after I feel better. When I recover from this illness, I'll do the interdependence thing. Right now, I gotta get rid of this illness. You know, chemotherapy now. Now. And later I'll do this kind of, I'll do this interdependence thing. Later I'll meditate on karma, you know, and see how I think that I, you know, can get to pay the doctor and the doctor, later. When things are pleasant,

[44:48]

maybe we can contemplate this. So things are pretty pleasant now, so contemplate it, I would suggest. So anyway, I think, I don't know, is that a good start for you, Rob? Good start, yeah. Good start. If you really study the laws of karma, you will see that the laws of karma are a beautiful, extremely, the most important example of dependent co-arising for us. If we don't respect them, we will not be able to see the dependent co-arising operating in the realm. We have to, we have to enter dependent co-arising through the, I mean, the transformative vision of dependent co-arising is the karmic dependent co-arising. If we see the dependent co-arising of other things, physical, the physical world too, physicists do not, do not very often get enlightened and liberated by seeing dependent co-arising. They sometimes do, of their work. It's through karma that you really get freed. So, right view is, is a view which really studies how the independent self is miserable, how out of its misery

[45:50]

it thinks, because it's deluded, it can act, and how the action leads to more, more enticements to act that way again, out of the same, to keep the delusion going and keep the karma going. That view, such that you will study this, is right view in its early stages. When you actually see it, it's right view in its fully developed form. But again, you have, then we'll talk about how... My notion of believing, belief in the teaching. So, I hear you say, you either believe, or you don't believe. Or you say, I won't do either. Yeah. It's okay. Okay. And, I agree, I mean, that's true for me. But, I think, there's also something else necessary which, for lack of words, I would call something like cultural disposition. For example, I'm thinking about Europeans have been exposed

[46:52]

to Buddhist teachings for 500 years, but it's only been 100 years, or maybe only for 50 years, that people started practicing. And, all that, it didn't really seem possible. Yes. Yes. Yes. What is that? Well, that's what I say. The view of the Europeans was such that when they saw those Buddhist teachings, they thought, they thought quaint, or whatever, they thought, this is not something that's really important for us. So, they didn't pick it up. When they saw gold in, you know, when they saw gold in Mexico, they said, this is something for us. You know, when they saw black people in Africa, they said, this is something for us. This was interesting to the Europeans. So, I would say, as you say, given the culture of Europeans, Buddhism did not,

[47:52]

was not interesting to them until quite recently. That's what I would say. Could it be that, besides doing great for gold, there's also something that the notion of self, that European self is something that is relatively recent for Europeans? Oh, maybe so. I don't know. I guess, Europeans, maybe something recent. But anyway, in India, it's been going on for a long time. People have been believing in themselves for quite a long time. So, I guess, Europe's behind schedule. In America, we've been believing in ourselves for a long time. Native Americans believe, they believe in themselves for a long time. In China also, they've been believing in themselves. In Japan, in Korea, also in Mongolia, in Southeast Asia, and also in Australia. And also, as African slaves that got brought over by the Europeans, they also believed in themselves. And in South America, anyway, everybody's been in Europe, I guess. But now, Europe's catching on. That's great. It's a worldwide epidemic. It's spreading to Europe. The Europeans are starting to develop a sense of self.

[48:54]

They're getting with the program of samsara. Soon, the whole planet will be in samsara, and we'll all work together to study samsara. And then, we can all be liberated. Right? So, next. Robert? Yeah. What about deciding not to do something? Is that a karmic act in the same way? Yeah. For example, you might say, I don't know what, you might see somebody, and you might have a thought, a thought might rise in your mind, like, well, let's say, a thought like, you might think, I'm going to say something. You might think, oh, that person's a jerk. And you might think, I'd like to tell them that they're a jerk. That would be an example of, that would be a karmic act. I would like to tell them that they're a jerk. That would be a karmic, that would be a negative, that would be a negative karmic action, in terms of thought. Okay? Then to say, oh, no, I don't think I'll say anything after all, because, well, for whatever reason,

[49:57]

that might hurt their feelings or something, might harm them, and then they also might harm you back, I think I won't do it. So, there would be two karmic acts. One would be not saying something, and the other would be thinking of saying something. So, one unwholesome act and one wholesome act, or at least a neutral act of not doing it. So, refraining from unwholesome activity is at least a neutral activity. Now, if you, yeah, it's at least a neutral activity. Sometimes refraining from things is wholesome, like, you know, I actually like to, let's say somebody, you know, there's some food there and somebody else is hungry, you know, and you refrain from taking it before them. In that case, it might even be not just neutral, but maybe positive. You might even reach over and give it to them before they had a chance, you know, get credit for giving it to them before they had a chance to take it without your assistance. And to do that unselfishly is quite positive, which might be based on refraining from

[50:57]

the first action, refraining from taking it for yourself before them and pushing them down. Okay? The thing is what that you think I can do this or that or I can't do this or that, thinking in terms of self and then acting or not acting on that basis is the world of karma. So just that thinking in terms of self is a karmic act? No, no. No. Thinking in terms of self is not a karmic act. Thinking in terms of self, independent self, okay, thinking in terms of independent self is not karma. Okay? That is a delusion. Okay? Thinking in terms of self and thinking that's true that's a delusion. But to think that this independent self could do something that's karma. That's just a thought. It's karma. Karma, I like this wonderful Chinese character. This is a character

[51:58]

from the bottom part is a character from mine and the top part is a character for a rice field. So it means the rice field of mine or the pattern or shape of the mine. It's the character for for volition. Okay? And Abhidharmakosha in chapter four it says, you know, it says where do the where do the varieties of the world come from? Right? Where do the varieties of the world come from? And they come from karma. They come from they come from the world arises from the actions of living beings. And what is action? Action is volition and that which is produced by volition. Volition, will is a definition is a basic definition of karma. And volition or will is the kind of like the trajectory of a moment of consciousness. See this character down here the bottom one means consciousness. And the shape of the consciousness is the will of the consciousness.

[52:59]

It's the intention of the consciousness. So that in itself is karma. The direction the directionality intentionality willfulness volition of the mind is karma. That is mental karma. To actually think of have the delusion of a self and then have that you're holding you've got an idea of a self and your mind is tending some way that's a karmic act. To just believe in yourself without the mind tending in some way just the thought of the belief in self is in the background. That's not that's a delusion which we hold to. Then holding that delusion and then seeing a direction to the mind that's karma. If I could look into your minds and see the volition of your minds that would not be karma what I see. The volition of your mind has to be coupled with the belief in self to make the thing work. So in the background of karma is the belief in self. When you take away the belief in self the mind can have direction but it's not

[54:00]

karma anymore. Just let me go further. It says karma action which creates the world is volition and what is produced through volition. So what is produced through volition is speech and you know posture. So there are three types of karma. Three types of action. Volitional thought and then action which expresses it physically and through posture and then vocalization. Those are the three types. That's karma. But just a thought you know itself aside from its volitional quality is not karma. However, every single moment has a certain shape and the shape of some moments is so indeterminate or so unclear that you can't see any declared karma. So in that case the karma is called indeterminate. But it still has a shape. So as long as there's a belief in self

[55:00]

every moment has the opportunity to turn into karma. Excuse me but so let's do wait a second. So Christina and do you want to have your turn later? I just want to clarify this point. Let me see where we are. Okay. Christina and do you want to do you want to have a turn? Okay. So then you're just before Liz. Christina and Marcia and then Rebecca then Liz then Klaus. What? You have good eyes. Thank you. They're not really my eyes. Marcia? Oh, Christina. Sorry. To become more conscious and aware of the meaning is also become aware of how for example if I become aware of

[56:01]

my belief how I actually select have a selective perception of things and I only choose to notice what concerns my belief and everything else I just won't notice. So so that's the meaning. Right. That's part of what you will see. You see if you have right view again right view means right view in the context what is right? Right is to study karma. Right view means you take in karma. It isn't that you believe in karma. Right view is that you take it in and work with it. If you take it in and work with it you start noticing stuff like this. You start noticing how your agendas warp reality. You start to see that. You also start to see how you hide how your agendas warp reality. Because it's not so easy to warp it when you notice how you're warping it. Right view is what makes you conduce makes you interested in studying what you're up to because that's exactly what right view is about is to see what are you up for because right view ultimately is

[57:01]

exactly whatever you're up to. So in order to totally congruent make yourself totally congruent you have to be willing to notice what's happening otherwise part of you is not checking in to heartbreak hotel. Yes? Yeah, last time you talked about certain laws of karma and one of those you were talking about was increasing it. Yes, yes. And it was increasing later I mean how how does that happen? I mean it would almost like imply that somebody is making a decision. It's, it's yeah one of the things about karma is that there's not somebody making decisions. The whole cosmos is is doing this dependent co-arising thing. Okay? And that's why when we don't when we think we're independent we you know we disobey we disobey the cosmic relationships we have. Because we disobey them because we don't listen to them because we don't

[58:02]

have right view to the extent of we don't think it's worthwhile to notice how things are interacting with us then because of that ignorance of our interaction with all things we get in trouble we get punished by the way things are by ignoring the way things are. That's who decides who decides is the way things are decides. Now who decides when we get to sort of like four you know prepay or yeah prepay who decides when we can prepay our debts who decides? You know dependent co-arising decides. And it it says when dependent co-arising sees somebody who's sitting upright in the midst of her karmic situation dependent co-arising says this person is starting to open up to the results of her actions because her uprightness is now revealing to her how her karma works and when she sees that what does she do? She continues to be upright and watch how her karmic is unfolding. So then because you because you notice how your karma works

[59:03]

you start to see more how your karma works when you start to see more how it works you see more how it works and the more you stay present as this intensity of educational process escalates In other words you're no longer expecting Right it's always there your debts are always right in your face but because because of lack of presence it says okay this person is not going to pay attention to this until it builds up real big so then it just keeps going so eventually they'll notice this this long trajectory thing they're the worst things you know this is going to get their attention but if you're already paying attention it says hey you don't have to wait come let's check in now let's show it now that's how I vision and in fact those are the beings that get this high level of karmic resolution are those who practice this way and you cannot be liberated until you close all that karma down because you're still somewhat encumbered

[60:04]

by that stuff which just keeps saying to you come on come on try it again you know aren't things bad enough for you to realize you've got to do something about this kiddo all by yourself nobody else is going to do it you can't trust these people you know rather than these people actually like the exact they're actually showing you they're actually like what they're really saying to you is your karma is getting worked off in the form of me being rude to you of course they don't say it that way they just say you know I'm not rude to you you're the rude one you're the one with the lousy practice when you hear people saying that you've got a lousy practice that's a sign that you've got a good practice not a very nice way to find out I know right we'd rather find out we have a good practice by people saying you have a good practice well yeah let's see who's next back to you

[61:06]

back to this clarifying this yeah clarifying it's that Robert's question and the point about I thought you were going to say Robert's rule no yes so here's an example so let's say don't you love that character yes he's sitting in the Zen bell and and they have a feeling of irritation or anger and a thought I want to hit my neighbor now they're sitting upright having this experience yes of the thought and the feeling of wanting to act on it now is that creating karma to like to actually think I would like to hit her okay that's a karmic act that's volition okay so what's your next question well but you're sitting upright with with the feeling with the thought yes and it's still creating karma

[62:06]

is what you're saying that's my question it still creates karma that thought still creates karma but the sitting upright but the sitting upright doesn't create the sitting upright doesn't create karma no but I thought that the process of sitting upright is what actually burns up karma yeah sitting upright sitting upright they're not laughing at you they're laughing at life sitting upright see this is not about you okay sitting upright in this case your example did you do you want to make this an example where you noticed that you had that thought well that's what sitting upright is what I mean by sitting upright so you so you noticed it you noticed this thought okay you noticed the thought you noticed the feeling you noticed the sense of self you noticed the feeling you noticed the feeling and you noticed this very fast anger and you noticed this very fast something's got to be done about this and I can do something about it and this is what I'm going to do and I want to do it all that and you might even notice that you have this sense of self

[63:06]

that wants to do it yeah you might notice that too that's even better okay okay and And so noticing all this is what is called the results of good karma, the noticing of it. Okay? Yeah. But you're still creating karma. That example was still creating karma. Even if she doesn't act on that thought? The thought, thought is karma, thought is karma. It hurts you to actually want to… if you think of hurting somebody that actually hurts you. You said earlier thought was delusion. Pardon? You said earlier thought was delusion. No, no. No. The belief that you exist independently is a delusion, it's not karma. Okay? Is that right? You see the difference between my belief that I'm separate from you and then me wanting to give you an ice cream cone? See the difference? Though I, based on my belief that I'm independent of you, and I can do things myself, that I

[64:16]

think I can give you an ice cream cone and that you are over there separate from me to give it to. I can also give you an ice cream cone, or rather an ice cream cone can be given to you without me thinking that I exist independently of you. I can just watch my hand reach over for the cone, I can watch the hand reach over for the cone, the scooper, take it, put the ice cream in it and walk right over to it and hand it to you, and that all can happen without me believing that we're independent, or that you're any less responsible for that action than me. The Enlightened One does not see that he is more of the actor in the process of exchanging gifts than the receiver. As a matter of fact, the Enlightened One is already receiving a gift at the thought of an action of giving to a being who is not separate. But to believe that I'm separate, everything based on it is karma, but it can be good karma too. You could have a pleasant feeling and say, I'd like to give this person a gift, but still it could be on the basis of, I believe I'm separate and I'm going to do this thing. Wholesome things also come from karma, but wholesome things still drive this cycle of

[65:19]

rebirth and this cycle of karma. It's the same world, but then again, the good thing about good things, the good thing about being kind to people, in the dualistic sense of I'm kind to them and I do this kind of thing. The good thing about that is it helps you see how karma works. So the little example you gave, you saw that moment, then you watch how it feels to have thought that. You see the karmic results. You see the pain of it. Maybe you're totally cruising along, having a real nice time sitting there, and now you're feeling all this crap and you see, oh, yeah. And then maybe the next time the irritation comes, you don't immediately switch into that negative thing. Maybe you practice patience, which is still based on dualistic world, but you practice patience. Instead of getting angry, you notice, well, that had quite a different response. And you say, maybe I'll try that again. And you keep trying. And you practice more and more patience. And as a result of that wholesome response to the pain, it's still dualistic. You start to see more and more clearly. You start to see more and more aspects of how this all happens. And pretty soon, when the pain arises, instead of getting angry, you see the self that you

[66:23]

thought was there, independent, rocks away. And then you have an interdependent person sitting there who is in nirvana with all beings. And uprightness is what, first of all, it allows you to join into the thing. It starts out maybe grossly like noticing heavy-duty belief in self. Pain is not pain. Karmic results of whatever kind of pain it is, or pleasure, or if it's a pleasure and somebody else taking the pleasure away from you and the pain of that, or the fear that they're going to lose it. Blaming it on somebody. Thinking of punishing them. All that stuff. That's maybe gross. But then as you watch that more and more, it gets more and more subtle. See more and more relationships. More and more interdependence. And you start to see your relationship to it. And you understand dependent co-arising by watching the laws of karma. And uprightness is this response which is basically very skillful response to this stuff because it's the most skillful in the sense that it itself is not karma. And at the same time, it is this educational mode.

[67:24]

It's not karma, and it's educational. Other kinds of karma are good, but they're still karma and also not quite as educational. Their results promote education. Being upright is, first of all, not karma and also the best way to study karma. And to be able to practice being upright is the result of lots of good karma. If you can practice being upright, you can say thank you to everybody that helped you practice good karma. First of all, thank yourself for doing the good karma so you can be upright. It's pretty good. That's okay. But really, you start to see as well that it's by the benefit of all Buddhas and ancestors and all sentient beings and everything that we're able, by that support, to practice uprightness. But by their support, you did a lot of good things to be able to practice upright in the first place. People don't dare to practice uprightness if their karma is too bad.

[68:26]

Because the world says, you can't be upright. Who do you think you are? People will have to shove you down. They see you sitting zen and they'll knock you down. That's the bad thing about karma. You try to sit in meditation, people will attack you. It's really hard to get started that way. Now, of course, a Buddha could do that. But for us beginners, it's easier to sit in a situation where people don't criticize us for sitting upright and walking in good posture and being mindful of where we put our feet. That's nice. We have good karma here. This is making us good. Getting it? I think Liz is... You're right after Liz. When Robert asked the question of is not doing something, so karma, I was thinking in the face of non-doing. And thinking about how we talk about thinking of non-thinking. Thinking, yes. And places in your practice where you come back to a certain thing,

[69:28]

you realize going into the future, all the situations where you think, this is bad and I've got to do something about it. And then something just drops in that realization. Yes. Yeah. Right. That's non-thinking. The dropping is not a conscious act, it's something else going on. Right. That's non-thinking. When you watch your thinking, you know, you watch this kind of thinking, and you see how the thinking goes, in other words, you see just how the thinking goes, in other words, you're really seeing your thinking, your thinking is fully presenting itself to you, you're aware, you're present and aware, you're balanced, and you can see the vividness and total energy of your thinking. That vision is non-thinking. That's the thinking, that's the thinking of a person who's upright. The person who's upright sees this extremely vivid presentation moment by moment of a thinking person. When in uprightness you see

[70:31]

volition, [...] volition in its fullness, you know, and seeing how it's diluted, seeing a diluted thought for a diluted thought is non-thinking. It's enlightenment. Something drops, the self-clinging drops when you see diluted thought as diluted thought. That's the non-thinking. And that's Right View, in its advanced stages. So, I'm laying the groundwork for the fundamental, foundational kind of Right View, and also moving now to the Right View, which is the Right View which will liberate you from the world of karma. Right View starts with just getting you, the beginning of Right View is please study karma. Finally, Right View is seeing Dharma in the karma. Seeing the Dharma in the karma, you see nirvana. And something drops when you see, the whole thing drops when you see the Dharma in your karma, when you see the Dharma in your thinking.

[71:31]

Seeing the Dharma in your thinking is what we call non-thinking. But you can't be like lukewarm about your thinking, you can't like try to squash your thinking down and half-heartedly think. You have to think just exactly to the fullness of your thinking at that moment, not more, not less. You don't pump your thinking up, you don't squash it down. You're thinking in its complete, vivid, total being. That's what uprightness law allows. The fullness of thinking is non-thinking. And then the self drops. Because the self is always meddling with the thinking, presenting it, trying to do something with it. That's karma. If you see that, that's non-thinking, that's Right View. Okay? Stuart? I was just going to comment on the way Rebecca formulated her question. It's really basic. It's a basic question in Zen. It's a real basic issue. And she formulated it. It's this dilemma by John Fox. Just exactly the question. Is a greatly enlightened person

[72:35]

by karma or not? And to say that not, that is to say, well, if you're enlightened, then there's no problem, no issue with karma. Then that earns us 500 lifetimes as a fox. That's a faulty view. Right. And the turning of that is that an awakened person is blind to karma. An awakened person isn't blind to it, or they don't ignore it, or they don't obscure it. An awakened person studies karma. An awakened person studies all things. But in particular, they don't skip over karma. Now, people don't ask, is an enlightened person free of robins? Is an enlightened person free of green tea? Is an enlightened person free of having a toenail? They ask, is an enlightened person free of karma? Because this monk knows karma is the thing that binds people.

[73:38]

So it turns out that the thing that people want to know is, are enlightened people free of, turns out to be one of the main things enlightened people study. They study exactly what people were wondering if they're free of. They study everything else too, because that's included there, but you can't skip over karma. You can't ignore that. If you ignore it, you're in big trouble. Enlightened people are completely free of karma because they're always studying. Because they have a right view, the right view is, there is karma in this world of samsara. That's the right view. And so, therefore, in the world of samsara, they see that. Now, they don't live in that world, but they don't live outside that world either. Because this mind is always able to flicker in that way. And I just wanted to say that

[74:46]

the first verse of the Abhidharmakosha is related to this thing about, it's not directly related to, does the Buddha take away people's karma, but it just says, you know, that the Buddha, the Buddha, in a complete way, destroys dark blindness. He draws the world out of the mire of transmigration, rebirth. I rendered homage to him, who is the teacher of truth, before composing this treatise, the Abhidharmakosha. The Buddha does not reach down and pull people out of the mire with his hands. He pulls them out with teaching of the truth. People will listen to the truth, they will be pulled out of the mire.

[75:47]

Now, he sometimes does do fancy things. Buddha has been known to do supernatural feats, do miracles to get people's attention. He sometimes did that, when they wouldn't pay attention. But the teaching is not his miracle, the teaching is this dharma, the truth, four noble truths. The point of this is to take away the blindness, to clear the eyes. If we can see, we will be liberated. And in the meantime, before we can see completely, if we can at least accept the laws, the teachings of karma, and work with them, we will gradually, that is very wholesome, and our eyes will gradually become clear, and then we'll see more of this horrendous situation. So that's the part where we have to do these other practices to support ourselves and keep our spirits up, because you have more complicated and embarrassing details to see about how karma works, and how much pain you're actually in, and how much...

[76:48]

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