I ask your forgiveness in advance for what I'm about to say, because it might be somewhat upsetting. I feel that the sitting's been going well during the session, and you've been sitting very well, and also the dog sounds seem to be fine as far as I can tell. I haven't gotten any feedback that there's been some big problem with it, but the feedback I've got on my talks is that they're very painful for some people, and disturbing, and

[01:02]

so I feel that I should not give a talk today or tomorrow, because the talks are painful for some of the people, it's not for all of you, but the fact that they're painful for some makes me feel that I should not give a talk today, and I'm sorry if that disappoints anyone, but that's my feeling. I don't want to pretend to be someone other than I am, and who I am is very disturbing to some people in this session, so please allow me to not give a talk today, and probably not tomorrow, but I will continue to meet with people individually, and eat meals with you and sit with you too if I have time from the interviews. And I don't feel bad about this myself, because I think of the precedent of the ancestors

[02:23]

who also sometimes felt that the way they were was too upsetting for people, and they didn't want to drive people to perplexity and doubt, so they didn't talk unless it was clear that people wanted them to, and on those occasions a lot of people left, even the Buddha's assembly, they left when Buddha was going to teach, for example, the Lotus Sutra. They didn't want to hear it, so I think that's the case, is that what I have become is no longer tolerable for some people, so I do not want to subject people to that, and some of the people who actually are having troubles are not in the room today, so they've already

[03:29]

been driven out of the room, I guess, I don't know, so I don't want to drive any more people to whatever you want to call it. So please forgive me if this is upsetting to you, I don't mean it to hurt, but I know it might. Yes? I really would like to hear what you have to say. Some people do, but some people it's upsetting, so I think in a case like that what I'd like to do is just sort of wait until some other time when it's clear that the people know that I'm going to be talking and that they aren't forced into coming by the schedule, and they know beforehand maybe that I'm not the person I used to be, and so I understand

[04:31]

some people want me to give a talk but I don't want to split the group into two parts, those who want to and those who don't. Yes? Can you explain why it is that it's so upsetting? If I start explaining it, it'll upset some people, because it'll be my view of it, right? You'll be hearing my interpretation of what's upsetting, right? If I tell you, and that will cause further upset to these people, perhaps. I think it's just going to be my theory. John? Is it possible to change my mind? Is it possible to change my mind? Sure, it's possible. I mean, I can appreciate that some people can be upset, but... Could you speak up?

[05:33]

Yeah, I've seen some people upset, and I can appreciate that some people are upset, but not... I mean, probably... I mean, I know, and maybe... I don't know if everybody knows, but it is to be upset in the course of these things, somewhat. Yes. And it's not like you've never upset people before. No, but all of a sudden, it's so different. No, I mean, this is happening... No, it's not... It's just a matter of degree. This seems to be... This seems to be more so than usual. And in a lot of those cases, I often felt like, when that happened, I always felt like, Oh yeah, this... I forgot, I was... You've got to... You can't just go and teach what you want. You have to... People need to ask you, because, you know, they need to ask. And then sometimes they get in situations where they don't ask, and then they feel this... Things happening to them, you know, without them asking for it. So, it has happened before, but I just feel like the practice period has been going along pretty well.

[06:35]

All the classes and everything seem to be fine. The disturbance level seemed to be manageable, but now it seems to be sort of out of scale, from my perspective. Anyway, I appreciate your comment, and let other people say it too, okay? Unless you have something more? Well, I'm just surprised that, you know... I'm just surprised that... I mean, I don't know what's happening, but I'm just surprised that kind of disturbance has convinced you that it's time to just be quiet, when it seemed like you were talking about stuff that's very important. Yeah. That's part of, I think, what's causing the problem, is I'm so enthusiastic. Yes? Um, I guess what John said is that, don't you think you should be a bit more democratic about it? We could forget, we could all close our eyes, and people would want to leave the room and leave, and then, you know, end the tutorial. Yeah, that's right, they could, but it's hard for people to leave the room.

[07:38]

Well, if we close our eyes, oh, I don't know. Anyway, that's a possible way to do it. That's the way they did the Lotus Sutra, people left. So that's a possible way. I mean, I have not looked around, but I imagine people are going to look around, and they're going to say, who is not a ritualist? And those people will then be kind of confused, and they're going to be caught in this whole thing. What did you say? And then the people that are in the room now, maybe, um, you know, people are going to think, well, because of those people that are not people, because there's already going to be some entities kind of built up. Yeah, see what we've got here? Right. Yeah, maybe that's a good way to do it. Yes? You're talking about being upsetting for some people. And like John said, you're talking about very important things. And I've come a long way, and gone very far, and gone to a lot of places looking for people to talk about what you're talking about. And to me, it's upsetting that you would

[08:40]

close your mouth. Time doesn't get it. Please speak. I'm here, and a lot of people are here and ready to hear what you have to say. It's very important. Yes? Yeah, I too feel like I was really needing to hear what you were going to say today. You know, how to put this into action into our lives is critical. Uh-huh. So, I'm just anticipating. Yes? I'm just going to chime in here. When I choose to come to this environment like this, I'm looking forward to perplexity and doubt. And I feel a little bit like left halfway there. Like I've opened up enough perplexity and doubt to be sort of floating about. Uh-huh. And looking forward very much to even deepening it, or making a breakthrough. And it seems that the split has already occurred.

[09:43]

We're already after the split. Uh-huh. And so there's so much moving forward here. It seems very dry to let it drop. Uh-huh. Yes? Basically, it's the same as what I think you were saying. You can think of lots of solutions to the problem. But I don't see it as really a problem. I see it as just a level of intensity. I'd like it a little warmer, like Eric was saying. And I would be lucky if it's somewhere temperate water. Uh-huh. Yes? This way? I just wanted to say that it's one of the people that talked about yesterday. Uh-huh. I don't even know if it's difficult for me. I mean, when I was going, I was still watching. Hearing whatever it is you had to say.

[10:45]

It is very important. It sounds like everybody gets to hear it. And I don't want to hear it. Uh-huh. It's sad that you don't want to hear it. And I would love to hear it. Yes? I was thinking that you were talking about self-expression. Uh-huh. And what you've done has had consequences with the problem of self-expression. What did you say? I didn't hear. The problem with self-expression. Yeah. The problem with self-expression is what? Is there consequences. Is there consequences, yeah. And then, you know, how to balance it. Yeah. What Martha had said was, you know, look at the pieces. Uh-huh. You know, any consequences are against the pieces. And I don't, I don't, I don't hear that. Uh-huh.

[11:46]

I was just thinking that, what's wrong with people like that? When you come to me, it's okay to be upset. As long as you can talk about it, and you can be supportive, and you're upset, and dialogue. I agree, it's okay to be upset. But if you, if you get the feedback that what you're saying is painful to someone, you don't necessarily keep inflicting the pain on them, even if you think it's okay that they're upset, you don't necessarily just keep going and saying things that they're telling you are painful and disturbing to them. Right? Maybe they're just upset. Yeah, maybe. So anyway, I think it's okay if people get upset, but if I'm being told that what I'm saying is so painful and disturbing, I wonder if that's what I'm saying. I'm not sure, right? Kevin? Kevin? Some, yeah.

[12:54]

We're not just upset that they're getting upset because what I'm saying is painful. What? Yeah, it's a very, well, it's as real as calm, I guess. So maybe it's an act of compassion, you know, to do this. You don't have to ask for compassion. Yeah. Right? Right. Lee? That's two in a row, Lee. What? Bee? Yep. Another act of compassion is to continue to be who you are, to allow us to be who we are, and keep working that out together. If you leave in this way, then I miss the opportunity to express myself and be who I am. Right. And I'll miss you. So I'm going to be compassionate,

[13:58]

I'm going to stay who you are. Pat? I was looking forward to plunging into the labyrinth, and some level I think we have. Labyrinth. I also think that I'm very respectful of your noticing and offering not to talk, but I think that it seems a general experience here that we're asking you to talk. So maybe we should take a vote. Would you be willing to do that? Um, sure. Another way we could do it is we could all leave the hall, and those who wanted to come back would come back. Uh-huh. Right. I'd like to point out that there's a lecture schedule,

[14:59]

and I don't know what we were doing. We don't want to then have a vote about what we were doing. And, uh, so maybe we could just proceed, all right? Until at least eleven. It's already almost eleven, don't worry. Okay. Miriam? Um, I would like to say that I would suggest that it might be possible for you to handle the people who are upset and demonstrate their upset just for a few minutes. Let them know that they're upset. By letting them finish their sentences, you'll hear what they have to say and respond to their feeling, and then I think you could go ahead. Uh-huh. We didn't come here for a speech, why? Uh-huh. Greg?

[16:06]

Um, I really appreciate that, uh, you're sensing that maybe, I mean, you're a very thoughtful person and just kind of bringing up the people you're concerned about right now. I appreciate that. I'm really enjoying your lecture. I'm glad you noticed. Greg? Well, uh, I have been upset in conversations and lectures before as well. And so I feel for the people here that have been disturbed in that way. And until Kevin said what he did, I didn't really look at it from his point of view either way. Maybe a good precaution would be to have done lectures for two days instead of what I was building up to and saying, gee, I'm really disappointed and I'd really like to hear you speak. But the truth is, I'm really disappointed. I'd like to hear you speak. But when you're concerned about splitting the group in two, you know, we could have the lecture in the Wheelwright Center

[17:10]

and those who didn't want to come to the lecture could come and sit, could do whatever else was appropriate. As far as splitting the group, I don't think you were splitting the group. I mean, the group was already split into 91. I don't think there's a division to be had by either continuing with the lecture or not continuing with the lecture. As far as auspices of the people. I've had sittings where I've been very upset and I've stayed outside of the sitting but haven't felt excluded by the group. It was just my choice. What do people say that they support using yourself? I wonder if using yourself is not being a lecture today. I said, what do people say that they support you

[18:15]

using yourself so that you can respond to that? It makes me wonder if using yourself today is not being a lecture. Yeah, that's sort of what Greg noticed. As much as I was looking forward to the lecture, this seems to fit well. Yeah, this is me. This is regular me. It's just not me the way I was yesterday. Which is something that, I don't know if we should have that again. Yes? John? It's been my belief for some time now that when people get upset it's because of the previous innovation that they're on the cusp of some realization. I was certainly over my compassionate part that that is what's happening and that we should stop and try to continue. Right, uh huh. Yeah? Rayne? Yeah, when you started talking

[19:18]

I started experiencing anger because I feel like I'm being encouraged to make a response with my response to whatever comes up. And it really frustrates me that people feel like they have to stay in this room when they want or they don't want to stay in this room. I have the option of leaving for the day. Anyway, frustrated by that you were not able to express yourself. I feel like the fact that people are getting upset just because there's a space where people are expressing that is interesting and good and it's very different from any other practice. Yeah, that's very good that people are able to express they're upset. Yes?

[20:19]

Well, I'm having this experience that time is passing and there's this lecture that's not being given and that people are getting upset. So, you know, the original people... The large people... It's me, but I have the other people kind of getting upset. I'm just noticing that. My sense is that this is becoming your lecture this question and answer. To allow this to happen, to allow this to be interesting to see how people work with... And then tonight you give your lecture. And people could decide to come in over the last two periods of the time. Russ and Taiko? Jordan said yesterday that this session is like a pressure cooker. I have to say that the second part of his comment is that it started as a pressure cooker and it's cooking the sound. I think it does a pressure cooker for everyone.

[21:21]

Why are you not talking? It's a pressure cooker for all kinds of people. In whatever way. Taiko? We set up the room for your lecture and... I guess I'm an elaborate and I don't know... which way to go. Bernd? I'm also upset, but I feel that it's okay. I can't hold anybody responsible for that. I also have to say that I have this deep feeling that your lecture is happening here right now. And in this, it's happening. It does not need to be very tough.

[22:26]

That's great. The Dharma is all inclusive. This is very painful. It is all inclusive. So let's accept this speech and this word. There's joy in all of that. That's good. Deirdre? I think you're talking about how he doesn't have a lot to say. I think what you have to say is a matter of life and death. So I want to know what you have to say. You need to approach it at any level. Thank you. Craig? This idea that we're supposed to have compassion and patience with all the other people.

[23:30]

That maybe not too much of them are doing as well. The idea that we're not allowed to help people. I couldn't hear what you said. The idea that we can't become enlightened until we truly want everybody to be enlightened and everybody becomes enlightened. The idea of waiting, sacrificing a little for another member of the group is maybe a higher teaching than a straight angle. Well, that's an interesting idea. We don't know what to do with our frustration at feeling unable to really manifest in the world and want help and guidance to do that. And we're getting it.

[24:32]

Or I'm getting it. And I appreciate it. This is good too. But I miss your lecture. I mean, it's interesting. But I wish we could do this and anybody who has some work to say could say it and then you could go after it. I don't know why, but I don't have it. Thank you. Oh yeah, Taiko's next. Oh, you already called in. You said something about setting up the room. So I thought about it beforehand. I thought, well, should I come in before you go to the trouble of moving the divider out? But I thought, no, it's nice to chant that

[25:33]

Dogen's vows first because then, you know, basically something really good happened. You chanted that chant. And if you think about that chant, meditate on that chant, you know, you can take pretty good care of yourself. And then, rather than me coming in before that chant happens, so I decided to come in and say it in this situation because I thought, you know, I wanted to be open to the possibility that you would convince me to give a talk. I want to be open to that. I don't want to make the decision all by myself. So I'm just saying that I thought it would be better not to. And so you've said all this and Bob wants to say something too. ... Pardon? ... [...]

[26:37]

... ... Do I? Yeah. Katie? Perhaps we could hear from some of the people who are in the labyrinth. Uh-huh. Okay. She said perhaps we could hear from some of the people who are in the labyrinth. And there's two more hands raised. Justin and Allison. I would like to say that your talks the last few days have been tremendously helpful to me and I appreciate it. It's been... I've really enjoyed listening to you. Thank you. Allison?

[27:46]

... I can't hear you Allison. ... [...] Okay. I hear you. Jean? ... ... Without what? Well... ... It's going to be a painful ride home Jean. ... These teachings are just opening up now. So hang on to your seat. They're not going to be completed in the next couple of days. Because I'm just sort of like starting to invite you

[28:49]

all to come forward and participate in a new way. We're just starting a new phase of teaching here. It's not going to be completed. This is a new phase. And that's another reason why I don't want to like blow this thing open too much since it's going to have to be closed. It's another way I look at it. I feel like things are opening up and I don't want to open up too much and then have you leave. There's another way I'm looking at this. But I just want to say that this is a Dharma event. Okay? What's happening here I feel is a Dharma event. I have not said too much this morning but I think what's happening here I'm very happy with it myself. And again, if some of you are frustrated that's what I'm saying is what's going on but it's not because I'm talking too much, right? It's because I'm talking too little or whatever.

[29:50]

But I'd just like to say that... Have you talked yet, John? Okay. Anybody else that hasn't talked before I say something? Yes? Who? Thank you. Good luck. Tenzo? I had a feeling that was the case since you left at the same time every day. And actually yesterday I had the feeling

[30:54]

like Daigon really didn't want to leave. He really seemed interested. And I just want to say that I didn't expect to become a controversial person when I was a little boy. But as time has gone on I realized the way I am is that one person is deeply encouraged by what I do and another person is devastated by the same event. And this is part of my life. That one person is pushed beyond his or her limits into another realm of life and another person is shocked, frightened and discouraged. And this is... So I think well maybe I should just be with that person who is encouraged

[31:54]

but I'm not sure what to do. So some of you are saying these talks have been really encouraging and so I appreciate that that can be happening at the same time that they are really discouraging frightening and painful to others. And so I think this morning's event I think it has happened that this has happened. And this is me, just like the other me's. And so... This is another example of one of my talks that's frustrating for people. Brian? Yesterday I wasn't quite sure. I didn't have a response but I could feel this energy. And later in the day it came to me that this thought In saving all being, the small and the weak are central. But I wonder if the difficulty is with the subject matter or with the interaction.

[32:54]

And I think you've already heard from some people about listening to small voices and weak voices and paying attention to those as well as loud and strong voices. And you said yourself you're you but you're not the same person you were yesterday. The first time I asked you a question 20 years ago, you thought so little of it you ridiculed it. But I'm back. I'm here. And I feel like that's I think it's a mistake for the sangha to look to you for approval in the sense of or for attention. And I think there may be some of that also. Sui? I didn't want to say anything. I feel strongly that small voices are You feel strongly what? that small weak voices have incredible strength

[33:58]

and the other thing is that you talked about devastation and how people are devastated. Sometimes people feel devastated by what you have to say and other times people feel really powerful. But in my experience over the last couple of days I've been harshly by what you've been saying I've been going through I have felt really devastated but I feel that great strength lies in that devastation and so on. I appreciate it. John? I just wonder if the people who decided not to attend this one attended the lecture I guess they really just don't stop there. Before I came in the room I didn't know that some people wouldn't be here. I didn't know that.

[34:59]

I had something I want to say. I do. I'm very enthusiastic about some of the things I want to say. But I don't see that as Buddhist teaching that the teacher just comes in and talks what he wants about what he wants to talk about. I think my understanding is I need to be invited and so I'm invited by part of the group but not by the whole group and that's my situation and when it's part of the group there's a problem for me. Elenia? How am I ever going to? How am I ever going to? How am I ever going to? I think the usual way is the traditional way is to ask three times. The traditional way that's the usual way

[36:04]

and so that's and this is a big group 90 people in this practice period originally but in other practice periods I ask each person before the practice period I ask them do you want me to be the teacher in this practice period? I say to them and sometimes they say what? What are you talking about? Well some people in a practice period where I'm giving the teaching and there's a lot of classes and lectures some people feel overwhelmed by the way I teach so I want to check to see if you want me to teach because if you don't and you're sort of trapped in a practice period with me it can be really uncomfortable for you and sometimes they say well actually I don't want you to teach I say well why don't you try a practice period with somebody that you do want to teach then? That actually happens sometimes. So in this practice period I didn't ask everybody beforehand but even so some of the people that if I had asked them they would have said yes I do

[37:07]

but they didn't know I was going to get into what I got into so anyway the thing is to be invited it's simple and so I will endeavor in the future to keep checking to make sure that I'm invited that people want me to teach and the power of being host or inviting sometimes helps people withstand the turbulence that happens sometimes when when things happen or things come that are difficult but it's almost 11 o'clock now so so I really feel that even those people who aren't here we're not sure exactly why they're not here we haven't gone to each person to say there's a reason they're not here

[38:08]

I'd be willing I'm going to go to Berkeley tonight and give a class there so I would be willing to give two classes or six classes tomorrow I would be willing to do a lot tomorrow but tonight I can't At the beginning of the practical period I don't think you identified it as gruesome but I thought it was said that your students are a great gift and I think that's true this is another example of that happening right now and especially those people who think you're a jerk because it's kind of true you would think they were better I want to say I don't always like what you say but I'm even more troubled by the idea that you would wait for a unanimous request

[39:10]

to proceed just go ahead and speak because Zanzibar and Bengal is really a complicated place we're never going to get just one kind of student here No, but we do have situations where people have an option for example, people don't have to go to a particular study class so I find that situation for me is better when I'm in a situation where people are there because they're required to be there I don't want to be there when the Buddha gave talks the monks there were not residents of the monastery and required to go to his talks people at Green Gulch feel required to go to Dharma events sometimes it was said at the outset that if you cannot speak, you cannot speak that's all there is to it there's no threat of retribution

[40:12]

or anything speaking of Jordan the schedule is rigorous and strenuous and demanding and when there is a need for you to schedule one thing and attend a lecture I think it's no different than attending a talk that's what you think I wonder if there's a way to proceed with what you have to say with maybe a greater measure of compassion because what I've found in my own life and seen in people around me is that the things that are most upsetting to us are often the things we most need to hear but they can be offered in such a way that there's reassurance so that it's not just an avalanche of pain and suffering

[41:12]

or it might be an avalanche of pain and suffering but it's also somewhere within that avalanche there's a hand reaching out saying it's ok that's the whole point it's ok it's all this stuff but we can get through it that's why we're here so I don't know maybe you can work with that I'll try to work with that I'm stuck on this thing but do we need permission to express ourselves before we express ourselves? Do we? I think that for me that works pretty well to get permission because I often check with people before I express myself because if I don't sometimes they're not ready for what I have to say I often say to people sometimes maybe 30 times a day do you want feedback on your practice?

[42:13]

I ask them before because if I just give it to them when they don't want it they get knocked over by the feedback but if I ask them and they say yes then it often works quite nicely so I often ask before I give feedback but of course I'm in a position where if I'm the so-called teacher and I give feedback it's got a lot of weight so they should really want it and sometimes they don't and sometimes I say ok, later maybe so yeah, I ask for permission or even more than just permission I ask for if they want it I don't say may I give you feedback I say do you want it? and if they say no, I don't give it almost ever you know, there are many of us who live here and will probably hear some version of the next two lectures

[43:16]

somehow, on Sundays but there are people who come from Japan and Canada and who may not ever and who have come to take this five days out of their life to sit here and teach and I'm thinking about how can we actually offer these two lectures as actual lectures perhaps but offer them before the session is over so let's think about it I agree, I think it's a practical question and I'll think about it, how to do it and it's not like there's just two lectures you know, there's like there's just as much as we have time for but the question is how much is reasonable how much is reasonable to give, that's all because it's not just like and it's not just, it's also not part of what I was talking about which I think was part of what's upsetting is part of what I was talking about was and I have been talking about is

[44:16]

you expressing yourself, that's part of what's upsetting people is I'm not just giving a talk, I'm also saying I was trying to show what it's like for me to actually interact with you and that's part of what upsets people is they don't, I think is that they're not sure how they're frightened that they're going to not be able to that's part of what's going on here is the very thing about the self-expression because I find, you know, I gave some workshops on anxiety and fear and I found out in those workshops that the thing that people are most afraid of is expressing themselves hanging over the edge of cliffs and stuff like that is frightening, but to express themselves in a group with lots of people, especially with authority figures there is really frightening for people but I was kind of like going into that area

[45:17]

that's part of it so what's happening this morning for me is actually sort of what I wanted to have happen in my talks the last few days is that you come forward and if you excuse the expression play together, it's happened so for me it wasn't much of me giving a talk but for this dependent co-arising thing to be demonstrated so I ask you have you seen the teaching of dependent co-arising enacted or dramatized this morning and if so, that's basically what I that's basically what I wanted to do in the talks so it seems to me that we somewhat started our gropings to do this thing together and now the kitchen is leaving and it's 11 o'clock and we're on schedule and I hear all this stuff and I'll do my best from now on

[46:19]

have you been asked three times have you been asked three times do you consider bias now I... I don't know honestly speaking, I don't know yes I think many people are comfortable in speaking in small groups or one to one yes, right right well I think the benefit of it is to meet embrace and become intimate with that fear that's I think the benefit it's one of the fears, right I think my feeling is that to become intimate with the various fears we have is necessary in order to realize the way

[47:21]

and one of the fears is fear of death fear of going insane fear of losing your livelihood fear of losing your good reputation and fear of speaking in public can you believe that? and actually fear of speaking in public includes the other four you can lose your job speaking in public you can lose your reputation you can die and you can go crazy by speaking in public people are often shot speaking in public often go crazy speaking in public often lose their job speaking in public and lose their reputation speaking in public it's surprising, it's wonderful you go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and people laugh on the last one it's ironic that it actually is very powerful and yet in a group like this people, although they feel that fear

[48:23]

just like it could be and has been dangerous in other times and places people often have the experience of speaking in this group and getting over that fear, meeting that fear and overcoming it, not overcoming exactly but becoming free of it and this is a great thing for people and then for us to do it together and so yeah to me it's very terrific to see people come forth in a group like this but it's getting kind of late so we're going over time so if you really need to is it ok if these other questions happen? ok, alright so we have Lee Taiko and we have Katie and Mick and Sunchild, so maybe Mick since Mick and Sunchild haven't spoken so they can start I'd like to appreciate this in my opinion this is the most

[49:26]

the best lecture you've given I'd like all your lectures to be like this because I feel this is an actualization and a demonstration it's very lively thank you, I hope I hope everyone agrees with you I agree with Mick 100% in respect to what I have to say I'm one of those people that's terrified of speaking in public also of speaking in a doze time last time I was in a doze time I was asked to express myself and what I had to say was

[50:29]

was this I think you really get it this is exemplary thank you Lee? three in a row Lee three in a row I wanted to say what they said I also wanted to respond to your what's happened to you I'm wondering if I understand that when I teach sometimes I say out loud to people I'm wondering when the killer will emerge and people have gotten really shocked by that people higher up have said

[51:32]

what do you mean and I tell them what I mean and they say it's too much you scare people and so I don't need to scare people I don't need to say I'm wondering when the killers emerge because that's where I live I live in wondering and wish to be there with what is happening and often that's not that's emerged and yet when I say it it scares people and so I tune that down I tune it down a bit and I don't know if that's the way I want to continue to express and so I'm wondering if I'm understanding that place that I don't know

[52:35]

in you I wonder about that and I want to tell you this is again a magnificent non-dharma talk event of the time so thank you very much as strong as my fear of being in public it's my fear that I will never learn to speak in public because I'm one of 90 people listening to you thank you would you please read

[53:38]

the one vital quote I will I disagree with I think I'm shy it's really frustrating I can't get over I have a certain hierarchy your words still have more weight than my words I can't take every word on the same level of receiving dharma and I think that this can only happen as it happened today on the background of the lectures that you have given and that that is the form that is so strong that gives this room for us all to come forward and it's a big illusion to think that you're just the one like this and it's really painful

[54:40]

I can't get it all on the same level I have this yeah, well you know some things are, what do you call it seeds and some things are flowers maybe what I did was put seeds down and this is the flower so flowers aren't necessarily better than seeds but you can't have flowers without seeds but it doesn't mean seeds are better than flowers either so it may be that if I hadn't put something out for you to focus on and had this difficulty then today wouldn't have been able to happen but some people like flowers better than roots and a few people like roots better than flowers but flowers are awfully nice aren't they but you're right you can't have flowers without roots and seeds and stuff like that

[55:40]

oh we have some new people god, it's getting to be like a regular lecture it's going overtime so we have Linda and we have Helen and we have Matthew and John and who else was there? or Taiko the new people first Linda and Helen first this is really difficult because everything everybody has to say is wonderful and I agree with it all it's tough and I'm all rockin' and rollin' because I want to hear you talk I like what you're doing it's just a change yeah, it's rockin' and rollin' Helen? I think it's actually discouraging from wanting to express myself because you feel you can't

[56:43]

express certain things a certain way that's something that maybe some of us wait, you feel like I have trouble expressing myself in a certain way I'm discouraged from doing it I can't do it so is that all? oh, yes I agree with what Anup said and Helen also I've been thinking this whole time about a poem by Pablo Neruda it's a little embarrassing because it's a love poem but it's a love poem I can't remember all the words but it's something like don't leave me for a minute, my love because then I'll be like a train stranded on the tracks and the smoke will be rising

[57:45]

and leaving me behind and will you leave me here dying? I think about that in this lecture this non-lecture and I don't know who this is dying or why that's just a poem that's just a poem you thought of thanks is that all? for now? oh, Matthew I've enjoyed this documentary and I also anticipated based on the ups and downs I wanted to take a day off and I expected that too but I've enjoyed it

[58:47]

and it reminds me that last spring was the last day we all turned to the center and we were working with the case I don't remember the rest of the case but part of it was the true reality body of Neruda manifests in response to me and what she responds to seems to be the question it's spontaneous that people's responses at that time but I really like it it feels sort of like today and I'm in agreement with those who think that this is a great way to teach and exchange and learn Darwin from one voice so I really like it and if you do decide to continue talking about co-expression I'd love to hear co-expression in light of Wright's speech on the April 5th John? John?

[59:50]

Yeah, I like Darwin okay but I think I'd like to speak better but, you know, there's a meaning to the question you were raising in the last few days one way of looking at complexity is looking at what might have been this dynamic principle of self-expression that then retrains itself as a kind of unique world and in that dynamic working out I don't see it's true that some people like it to be more calm and sweet and some people like it to be more exciting and I suppose my bias

[60:51]

on the exciting side so I maybe don't have enough appreciation of what it's like to be kind of sweet and gentle but I don't see how it can be I mean, I think you've shown here that it's possible to do it more than I would but I think that I think some sharp edges are important one more oh, one more baby goat, baby goat close my boat close my boat to the other shore some people say they want to get off this boat but I want to come back for more and more

[61:53]

so one of the things that happens when you're trapped in a labyrinth is poetry comes to you so this French philosopher named Simone Weil which Jordan says maybe should be pronounced differently but we haven't found out what that is does anybody speak French here? Simone Weil the French say Simone Weil ah so here we have this French philosopher who towards the end of her life she felt so so sensitive so she was so sensitized to the suffering around her that for herself she felt like suffering was the way to intimacy with God

[63:12]

and she basically starved herself to death she felt that she couldn't eat anymore because so many people were suffering during the Second World War but she wrote some wonderful things before she died and I have a connection with her in a sense not only do I appreciate her writing but I heard that one of her main meditation practices before taking up starvation was to memorize a poem by an English priest named George Herbert called Love Number Three and she memorized that poem and she thought of that poem all the time and while meditating on that poem she had a very encouraging intimacy with Christ she felt so I memorized that poem and meditated on that poem too I think it's a great poem about

[64:17]

you can apply it to your relationship with love or you can apply it to your relationship with a lover or with a teacher or with God various ways to understand it so I have that connection with her and then Jordan gave me this quote this writing of hers about the labyrinth and it's in a section where she's talking about the nature of beauty and how for many people anyway maybe beauty is the way to approach the divinity you know something we can see to orient around so she says here that beauty the beauty of the world is the mouth of the labyrinth the beauty of the world is the mouth of the labyrinth

[65:18]

and may I have your permission to change the word God to Dipenacoarizing yes thank you no ok so I'll say God the beauty of the world is the mouth of the labyrinth the unwary individual who on entering takes a few steps is soon unable to find the opening that make sense? just a few steps and you forget how you got in there it's amazing worn out with nothing to eat or drink in the dark

[66:21]

separate from his dear ones and from everything he loves and is accustomed to she walks on without knowing anything or hoping anything incapable of even discovering whether she is really going forward or merely turning round on the same spot but this affliction is nothing compared to the danger threatening her for if she does not lose courage if he keeps walking on and is absolutely certain that he will finally find the center at the labyrinth no it is absolutely certain that he will find

[67:24]

that he will arrive at the center of the labyrinth I'll read it again if he goes on walking and does not lose courage it is absolutely certain he will finally arrive at the center of the labyrinth and there is God waiting to eat him later he will go out again but she will be changed she will have become different after being eaten and digested by God afterwards she will wait she will stay near the entrance

[68:25]

so that she can gently push all those who come near into the opening may we conclude our morning event now may our intention equally may may our intention

[69:05]

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