That might be somewhat helpful, to expect that thoughts are going to be rising and ceasing. You can expect that. But again, I'm recommending that you relax with that expectation, so that you're expecting in a relaxed way. In other words, you're not expecting. But you understand, it's more like an understanding than an expectation, you understand that probably is going to happen, and things are going to happen frequently, so you probably should be ready. And if something happens, there's nothing wrong with that, you know, it's okay for things to happen. And I'm ready for them, and okay, all right, well, how about it? Oh, something is happening, wow. Oh yeah, it's a thought. And there's an intention to speak. Oh, and it ended, and it started again. And there's the verge, I saw the verge, and so on.

[01:12]

How about, oh, did I, what's that? So actually, you know, watching yourself, watching your mind, and watching the intention to speak, in conjunction with the process of speaking, this is ultimately what we want to be able to do, is to carry this into, like, speaking. John? It kind of just seems like there are things that just came out of your mind. Yes? And I'm wondering if those are just a series of thoughts that just fall into the same arising of character, arising of character, same thoughts, same thoughts. I guess it's the arising of the thought that these are the same thoughts, and the arising of that thought, and then the arising of the thought that there's been a whole bunch of these arising of these thoughts, and these are the same thoughts. That's what it seems to be to me.

[02:15]

However, the nice thing about this meditation is even people who are totally agonizing over this terrible pattern of obsession, if they possibly could bring compassion to the situation and watch the arising of the thoughts, they could do the same practice as someone who didn't have this kind of terrible pattern of repetitive thoughts, but it's hard for people to bring compassion to obsessive thought. But if you could, you could do the same meditation that people who are free of that are doing on their free thoughts. Some people have this nice free-flowing stuff, no repetition, they're not trying to get anything out of their mind, they're not trying to get anything into their mind, in other words, they're relaxed. Stuff's coming in, going out, they're relaxed with it. Now, they have to do the same, they have to practice with that situation to watch the arising and ceasing of thinking in that situation. Okay? Vivi? The arising and ceasing of thoughts, I have a question.

[03:20]

One is, the moment I observe it, it drops, so sometimes it's not even an entire thought. Okay, there. She said, the moment she observes it, it drops, so then you see the end of it, and you also saw the fully established part of it. So you saw two phases there. Well, so maybe you're good at the ending part. You're good at catching the last phase. So that's your thing. So now you can maybe start working at the previous phase. Again, this is trying to help us actually be following our thoughts. So she's saying, I hear her saying anyway, I'm following my thoughts, I'm good at seeing the end of them, and I can barely see the fully established part. I mostly like notice them as they're going, as after they happened. And that's what a lot of people say, that they notice stuff after it's over. They don't notice actually when it's happening. And some other people have trouble spotting the end of things.

[04:24]

Generally speaking, people have trouble being intimately mindful of their thinking. This practice is saying, I'm going to try this, a very simple practice, very hard though, to actually tune in to the, intimately to the whole thought process, and then become stable and consistent in turning into the whole thought process. Bob? When I have a problem I'm working on, a question, there's a different quality than this thought. There's some driving energy behind the question that optimizes a lot longer than the solution. Is that a sustained thought? That thought, what you just said is a thought that you have. It's not a reality. You have a thought, that you have some sustained thought. But there isn't any sustained thought. Thoughts don't get sustained, they come up and go away.

[05:26]

But there is a thought that this thought lasts. And there could even be a belief that the thought lasts. But thoughts, I say thoughts do not last. But there's a quality about it that seems different than just a thought. There's a quality of inquiry, or, you know, there's a nagging, I don't really understand Right. So that's an example of a thought that has a quality that's different from thought. You have a thought that this thing, that this quality is different from thought. People can do that. You're one of them. We have imaginations, we can say stuff like that. And then, I said, you didn't actually say it, I said that. But you told me about something, which you basically told me about a mental phenomenon that you thought was different than a mental phenomenon. In other words, you thought it was a reality other than your mind. But what I heard you telling me was,

[06:28]

here's a mental phenomenon that has a quality of not being a mental phenomenon. That's what I heard you say. That's not what I intended, I recognized it as a mental phenomenon. It has extra. It's not a thought like an observation or a classification or a designation. There's something driving behind it. When I have a question or when I have a problem. Something driving behind it other than the driving quality of the mind? The mind has a driven quality. That's the impulse side of it. So you're talking about some driving other than that? Right. The intention is not observational.

[07:31]

The intention often looks like it's seeking. That's the intention. The way the mind seems to be intended for seeking is actually what we call the definition of karma. And that's not observate, that's not observing. But there can be observing of this, and you actually were observing this so you could report this to me. There can be observing of this non-contemplative, impulsive quality of mind. But the impulsive quality of mind is not observing. It is wanting to do and having a direction. It is driving or being driven. It's very active. So that's why that is the definition of action. That very thing is the definition of action. The question I have is, because it has that quality of seeking or driving, it seems to sustain for more than just a moment. It seems to replenish. It seems to, right. And that's why we have this sense of action which goes across moments.

[08:36]

It's like, I often use this thing, if you take a little stack of cards and draw stick figures like Mickey Mouse or something, and you have Mickey like this, and you have Mickey like this, and you have Mickey like this, and you put them right over, it looks like Mickey goes like this. But actually, each moment, Mickey just looks like he's about to do something or he has just done something. Looks like he just fell down. What happened to Mickey? People say, looks like he just fell down. Looks like he just stood up. Looks like he's about to fall down. Looks like he's going to jump. But actually, he's still. But he looks like he has this impulse. So we have these impulses and we stack up these impulses and make up a drama of personal action. It's an illusion, but that's how it works. And tuning into this process is exactly following your thoughts and then not being caught by them and entering, you know, the Samadhi. Grace? Well, what's really interesting about what Bob was just saying is that it strikes me that, or at least for me,

[09:39]

that's how I start to continually generate and feed a sense of self. It's the watershed of the mind that very, you know, those grooves in my mind that are really powerful, feel like they go on and on, but don't feel like they are moment to moment, that then I start to believe, oh, this is me. Not this is my mind. This is me. This is who I am. Well, part of the… It's helpful to hear him grappling with that because I can sort of see, or the way I understood it, was that what you're talking about, forming the deep watershed in your own mind which is the intention going south, north, east, and west, the deep river that actually looks like it's not moment by moment, but continues forever and always in power. Right. What?

[10:40]

Well… So, Grace talks about the perspective of… The karmic activity seems to perpetuate the sense of self, and then the sense of self, you know, feels like, well, something needs to be done, and this is what I want to do, and then it creates another karmic act which perpetuates the self again, you know, to cause more and more trouble and need more and more reason to fix things. Originally, the impulse was not necessarily associated with self, but a certain patterns of intentions and ways of relating to things became gradually associated with a sense of self. And then, from then on,

[11:42]

when these actions then perpetuate and modify the self, but originally, the patterns were not necessarily having a self associated with them, and later they can be released from the pattern by studying the pattern. Rather than making the pattern go a certain way to protect the self, we're going to forget about that for a while and just study the pattern. Okay. There's still lots of questions, but I can imagine that it's getting to be a bit much, right? How are you doing? Getting a little tired? Some of us are feeling very good. Did you see when it died? There you go. She saw the end of that one.

[12:44]

Yes. Yeah. Unless Barbara had her hand up. No, never. Never. I have this concept that conditioned patterns are like platelets of the earth that cover emptiness. And, like, I think it has something to do with what Roberto said a little while ago that what arises in me now is not really what is happening. So, it could Velcro that. Okay, could you wait a second? So, as you said, these concepts are like platelets, not platelets, plates. Plates, I'm sorry. Continental plates covering up emptiness. And then you said,

[13:54]

when the thought arises, okay, it's not really something that exists. Right? Is that what you said? Yeah. What? It's not really what's happening. Yeah, it's not really what's happening, but it's what appears to be happening. Your thought processes are not really what's happening. What's really happening is that nothing's happening. What's really happening is ultimately what's happening all the time is emptiness, emptiness, emptiness. But these apparent things are happening, which cover it up. If we watch the apparent things intimately, they will lose their covering quality. We will see through them. But we have to watch them intimately. If you watch the plates carefully, you will see what they're covering. But you don't see the plates, you see things that are bigger. If you watch the things that appear, you will see what doesn't appear.

[14:55]

You will see what doesn't appear and disappear if you watch what appears and disappears. And the mind phenomena appear and disappear. If we follow this appearance and disappearance intimately, then we can ask questions about it and look at it. And as we look at it carefully, thoroughly, we will be convinced of the unfindability of this whole arising and ceasing. And then we enter into this samadhi of the ultimate. But it's hard enough to thoroughly examine what's happening, what appears to be happening. That's pretty hard. But it's actually harder to really just tune in to what appears to be happening and to intimately take care of superficial phenomena in detail beyond what we've ever done before. But this is being offered as a way to enter into an intimate relationship with the liberating truth

[15:57]

of non-duality. But it's hard. First of all, you have to be calm enough to be able to see this, and then you have to look carefully, look carefully, look carefully. So, again, Jessie's kind of getting sleepy, so he's happy to hear about this hard work he has ahead of him, right? Yeah. Yeah, so he's going to really get in there and not to just relax anymore, he can now look at this stuff he's been successfully relaxing with. So, okay? So anybody that hasn't been called on that wants to say something? Anybody that... Yeah, it's Patty and Jessie? Patty, anyway. I just noticed, like, how you calmly, while you're talking, you're very calmly listening to what you're saying. Yes. But on another level, in my stomach, there's this feeling inside, and I never know what's going on. Yes. I just wonder,

[16:59]

but I'm not sure what's going on. Well, try to relax. First of all, try to relax with the anxiety. Okay? Try to not grasp the anxiety. Try not to seek the end of the anxiety. Calm down with the anxiety. Okay? Then, there's probably some thought or thinking about the anxiety that's going on. Let's just say that there still is some thought or thinking about the anxiety. Okay? Then you can actually look and see what it is. But first of all, you have to calm down with it before you're going to find out what it is. And anxiety is a perfectly good... Thinking about anxiety and any kind of impulses around it are a perfectly good thing to study. First of all, we don't get involved with it. Right? And then, second of all, we thoroughly realize non-involvement by actually looking at it, asking it questions, seeing what phase this process of thinking about anxiety and feeling about anxiety is going through.

[18:00]

Things have calmed down a little bit here. Oh, John? It's a kind of mundane question. A mundane question? A mundane question. It's about Sashin. About Sashin, okay. About the mundane aspect of it? Yeah. What do you think about note-taking during Sashin, during your talk? In a state of Samadhi. Yeah. Please, if you take notes, do it in a state of at least Samadhi number two. See if Samadhi number two will allow your fingers to grab a writing implement. What is this? Is that enough for today?

[19:12]

Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much.

[19:16]

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