In morning service today, did you start chanting of chapter eight?
 The translation we are reciting is from Tibetan, and we are also having two translations from Chinese. The original was Sanskrit. The Tibetan translation is called the questions of Meitreya, the Bodhisattva Meitreya. The Chinese chapters are called, are translated as ‘analysis of centering’ or ‘analysis of yoga’. In the text we translated this morning the Bodhisattva Meitreya asks the Bhagavan: “Bhagavan, abiding in what and depending on what do Bodhisattvas in the great vehicle cultivate Samatha and Vipassana”. Tranquility and Insight. And this translation said, “Meitreya, abiding in and depending upon an unwavering resolution to expound the doctrinal teachings and to become unsurpassably, perfectly enlightened, do Bodhisattvas cultivate Samatha and Vipassana”. This translation is emphasizing that Bodhisattvas depend on and abide in this unwavering resolution to expound, to teach the doctrinal teachings; and to attain supreme perfect awakening.
A lot of people who I meet, who are practicing, who are devoting their life to the practice of the Buddha way, even the practice of Mahayana sometimes say, “I don’t think, I am not really gonna be teaching this stuff”. But this says, that Bodhisattvas who practice this yoga practice, this Bodhisattva yoga practice, have an unwavering resolution to expound the regular or doctrinal teachings, like this Sutra. This is related to the third of the four vows that we often chant: ”The dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them”. ‘Enter’ makes sense that you would enter a gate. And ‘enter’ is often used for the deepest understanding of something. The actual original Chinese says, more like ‘understand’ or ‘master’. But ‘enter’ is good too, it means that you would understand and actually enter into and become the teachings. So part of the Bodhisattva is that your, these great vows anyways, that you actually vowing to learn all the teachings and enter deeply into understanding them - and teaching them. And so I guess, we can all consider if we really want to do that. The Chinese translations are closely related, but quite different, because they say that, they are asking ‘what’s abiding in and dependent upon’, you know ‘what’s the support and the station’ of the Bodhisattvas who do this practice. And they say: ‘that they are supported and their station is in the conventional teachings’, the conventional expositions of the teachings. And the commitment to supreme awakening. Its more like saying, they are supported by the teachings, and supported by the commitment to attain supreme awakening. It doesn’t say that they are supported by the commitment to both teach the teachings and attain enlightenment. Is that clear? The first one says ‘they are supported by the commitment, the determination, the resolution to teach these teachings’ and it also says ‘expound’ – there are many ways to teach them. You can teach these teachings by giving Dharma talks and you can teach these teachings by working in the kitchen. But the point is you understand that as you are working in the kitchen, you’re teaching the Samdhinirmoccana Sutra, you’re teaching the Lotus Sutra, you’re teaching the Heart Sutra, you’re teaching the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, when you are working in the fields. You are understand that what you are doing is expounding these teachings and you understand how what your are doing is expounding these teachings and if anybody asks you any question, you can like show them, like hand them a shovel or give them a seven hour Dharma talk or do a dance, you can, anyway, you can expound it in many ways, but the point is that you are expounding it. The other one says, we depend on these teachings and we depend on the commitment to awakening, so there is a little bit different in the emphasis in these two translations, the different, the Chinese and the Tibetan. But either way there is a problem, in one case you gonna teach these teachings and in the other case these teachings are your support and your stands, you are gonna stand in these teachings. And in one case you are not just gonna stand in them, you are gonna expound them. So in both cases you are gonna be intimate with all the teachings, all the conventional expositions. And one translations says all the provisional setups. And then, Meitreya says: “The Bhagavan has taught that there are four objects of observation of Samatha and Vipassana”.
“One: Conceptual images. Two: non-conceptual images. Three: the limits of phenomena, and four: the accomplishment of purpose. Bhagavan how many of these objects are objects of observation for Samatha, (for Tranquility)?” And the Buddha says: “One: the non-conceptual images”. And then: “How many are objects of observation for Vipassana?” And the Buddha replies: “Only one: Conceptual images”. “How many are objects of observation for both?” (Samatha and Vipassana). “There are two: the limits of phenomena and the accomplishment of the purpose.” The ‘limits of phenomena’ means all phenomena. Both conventional and ultimate. So all compounded things, all conventionalities and all ultimates, namely emptiness. So Samatha and Vipassana observe all phenomena, both conventional and ultimate, and Samatha and Vipassana observe, they actually observe ‘the accomplishment of the purpose’. They observe the accomplishment of awakening.
Meitreya then asks: “How do Bodhisattva seek Samatha and become skilled in Vipassana?”
How do they seek tranquility and how do they become skilled in Vipassana (Insight).
And then the Buddha said, “I set forth all these teachings, twelve different sections of teachings, and then Bodhisattvas hear well, comprehend well, repeat well, analyze well with their minds, and through insight fully realize all these different teachings”. And then: “remaining in seclusion and having genuinely settled their minds inwardly, they mentally attend to those doctrines, just as they have been contemplated”. So they listened to these teachings and then they settle down, and then they contemplate these teachings in accord with the way they have understood them. And then, so in a sense you can say, what they do, they meditate on the teachings, like for example the teachings of this chapter, and then they settle down, and then they meditate on the teachings. The settling down is tranquility and the meditation on the teaching is their Vipassana. And then what happens next is, I think is that, now Buddha gives more detailed instructions about how to practice tranquility. He says: “With continuous mental attention, they mentally attend to that mind which is mentally contemplated by any mind”. So that is the basic instruction. Mentally attend, -excuse me…’with continuous mental attention, mentally attend to that mind which is contemplated by any mind’. That is the basic instruction: with continuous mental attention, contemplate that mind which is contemplated by any mind.
Question: Can you explain that, the mind that which is contemplated by any mind?
TR: Sure. I say, the other translations might help: ‘In the continuity of their inner minds, they focus and reflect’. ‘Checking in to the continuity of their inner minds, they focus and reflect’. ‘And repeatedly abide in this correct practice’ of ‘in the continuity of their inner minds they focus and reflect’. And the one more translation: ‘they attentively meditate on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness’. I go back to this, I just want to finish the paragraph by saying: ‘With continuous mental attention, they mentally attend to that mind which is contemplated by all minds’. ‘The mental and physical pliancy that arises through engaging in this practice’ of mentally attending to the mind, which is contemplated by any mind. ‘By engaging in this practice in this way’, they.. ‘and continuing in this practice, is Samatha’, ‘the mental and physical pliancy that arises, is Samatha’. So the Samatha is the mental and physical pliancy that arises from continuously contemplating the mind, which is contemplated by any mind. So the continuous mental attention to ‘contemplating the mind which is contemplated by any mind’, the continuous mental attention to ‘the mind which is contemplated by any mind’ gives rise to a state of pliancy, physical and mental. This state of pliancy is called Samatha. The Sutra doesn’t say so, but you could call this continuous mental attention to the mind, which contemplated by any mind, you can call that Samatha training or tranquility training. But tranquility is actually the state that arise, the state of pliancy that arises.
I think it might be good to describe the state of Samatha a little more before I go into the basic practice. So the pliancy or the ease of body and mind that arises from continuously engaging in this practice in a correct way is called in Sanskrit Prasrabdhi. ‘Pliancy’, ‘flexibility’, ‘ease’. And this is you know, in early Abhidharma and later Abhidharma, it is one of the ten virtuous mental factors and it refers to the ‘fitness for action that freely applies full energy of body and mind towards all good purposes’. It’s a state of ‘fitness for action’, and they can freely be applied to any kind of wholesome activity. This ease comes from relaxing. And it removes all obstacles. It actually says, ‘this ease comes from relaxing rigidity’, but I think that is somewhat redundant. But we can leave the rigidity, what kind of rigidity does it come from ‘relaxing’? It comes from ‘relaxing the rigid adherence to contemplating conceptual objects’. We are rigidly habituated to pay attention to objects. This meditation is asking us to relax with that and now pay attention not to objects of mind, but to mind. Asanga says, “Pliancy is supreme happiness and joy that is preceded by faith and clarity”. What is the ‘faith’ in this case? The ‘faith’ is the faith that it would be a good idea to practice continuous mental attention to attending to the mind which is contemplated by any mind. It is faith that it would be good to meditate on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness, continuously. And be clear about this instruction, gives rise to this pliancy, according to Asanga. “Gradually, making the mind joyful, pliancy eliminates non-virtues class of errand tendencies”. And I was thinking that, ‘Prasrabdhi’ is a temporary relief from the afflictive influences of Alaya. It is a temporally relief, from our rigid predisposition towards conventional designation. Which in this, - to implement this predisposition towards conventional designation we need to use discursive thought. So it is relaxing with our discursive thought. Another definition of ‘Prasrabdhi’ besides ease or explanation I should say is freedom from subconscious conditions. So in a sense this kind of training, of looking, of attending to the mind which is contemplated by any mind, temporarily frees us from the subconscious content of Alaya. Once again, I just wanted to say, the basic definition of the object of contemplation for Samatha, is a non-conceptual image. Another way to say it is, ‘an object not accompanied of images of reflection’ or ‘an object or an image which is not accompanied by conceptual images’.
 And so now, what is the mind that is contemplated by any mind? What is this inner stream of the meditating consciousness? And maybe I just say right away, this question that was looming, for a week or so: is this ‘inner stream of meditating consciousness’, is this ‘mind which is contemplated by any mind’, is that Alaya? And also, by the way, this is also called, the uninterrupted mind. So Samatha is said to be ‘mental attention to the uninterrupted mind’. Is that Alaya? Well, Alaya is an unterinterrupted mind, but it is actually interrupted by death, and it is also interrupted by the attainment of certain levels of awakening. But it also says, ‘that mind which is contemplated by any mind’, and so
what mind is contemplated by any mind. So Alaya is one of the minds that you could contemplate, but you could also contemplate the mind, the consciousness which is called Manas, which is called the mind organ. You could also contemplate mind-consciousness or all three of these, mind, thought and intellect are actually consciousnesses, are actually minds. And all three of them are actually called transformations of mind. So mind is all three, is each of them, is all of them and each of them. So that’s why I think that it’s not really that we are cont- that when we are practicing tranquility that we are actually meditating on Alaya. The ‘inner stream of the meditating mind’ includes and relates to Alaya, but I think we are looking at something, a kind of cognition that is even less graspable, then Alaya might be.
So now as you know, some people practice tranquility by counting the breath, and that is not mentioned here. The second Ancestor in our lineage in Japan named Koun Ejo Daiosho, he wrote a text once called, “Absorption in the treasury of light”. I like to say “Absorption in the Womb of light”. And in there he says, trust everything to inhalation and exhalation. Trust everything to breathing in and breathing out. And then leap into the womb of light and don’t look back. Leaping into the womb of light, today I would suggest is meditating on the inner stream of the mediating consciousness. Trusting everything to the inhalation and exhalation, in another words perhaps, following your inhalation and exhalation, putting all your attention on that, approaches being with the inhalation and exhalation with no conceptual reflection. Not even ‘this is an inhalation or exhalation’ you might start that way, but trusting everything just to the inhalation and exhalation approaches being with the inhalation and exhalation without any objects for reflection of that. In that way you are starting actually to look at the mind – the mind. Not the reflections, but the mind itself. What mind? The uninterrupted mind. The mind that is uninterrupted by all the transformations into mind consciousness and intellect. The mind is transformed into Alaya, Manas and manovijnana, its transformed into sense-consciousnesses. There is an uninterrupted mind, an inner mind that is uninterrupted. And then he says, ‘after you leap into the womb of light, don’t look back’, in another words: continuously attend to this womb of light. This womb of light has an object of contemplation for tranquility, has no conceptual images to reflect upon what it is or where it is. So you are looking at something, it’s right in front of you, its right insight you, deep insight you, that has no way, when you not using any way to find it, or know what it is. Continuous mental attention to the continuity of the inner mind, the continuity of the inner uninterrupted mind.
 Dogen Zenji says, learn the backward step, which turns the light around and shines it back. Same instruction. Turn the light around and shine it back, on the mind, which is contemplated by any mind. Shine the light back on the light. And contemplate that light. A light which you can not – which no image, without using any image to make meaning what the light is. So, one more example of this, which I worked with for a long time is: Yang Shan meeting a monk, and asks the monk were he is from, and the monk tells him, and he asks the monk if he, you know, thinks about that place where he is from. And he says “Yes, I do.” That would be like if your from England, I would say “Where are you from?” You would say “England”; I say: “Do you think of that place?” And you say: “yes”. In other words you think of England. You know.  With the English people and the hillsides and the trains, etc. You think of those things. And Yang Shan said: “Therein…”.You know, when you think of where you are from there is all this stuff: hillsides and people and animals and buildings and all these things. And then he says to the monk: “Reverse your thinking. Think of the mind that thinks”. Or in the Chinese character I find illuminating, it’s saying actually: “Think of the ability to think”. And the Chinese character is a compound and has a marker which means ‘able or active, with thinking’. And that goes with the passive marker of ‘thinking’ . So there is the ability to think of and there is that which thought of. What’s thought of is England, United States, Argentina. What’s thought of is people and animals, and birth and death. But the ability to think. The mind has the ability to think. Think of that which can think. The uninterrupted mind, that can think, think of that. And then he says to the monk. We don’t know how long he did that meditation, but he says: “Are there a lots of things there?” And he says, “When I get here, there is nothing at all”. When you look at the ability to think, you don’t see anything. This is the light. When you look at the mind, which is contemplated by any mind, you don’t find anything. You don’t even have something that will tell you that that’s it what it is. This is a non-conceptual image. Continuously attending to this non-conceptual image, this inner stream of this meditating consciousness, comes to fruit as a state of mental and physical pliancy. My experience is, that making the transition from looking at objects and thinking about them or even trying to focus on them, and try to concentrate on them, through this practice tranquility is potentially nauseating. Because we are not use to like, looking for how, attending to how, to attend without any way to reflect on what we are attending to. Or to look for a mind; not just any old mind, but a mind that is contemplated by any mind, a mind, one translation is, the uninterrupted mind, which means the mind that is uninterrupted by images. Or you could say, uninterrupted or undisturbed or unhasseled by image. Look at the mind, that no words get at. And again, you can feel kind of seasick here. Because, anyway you get a footing in this meditation, you are slipping away from it, into a conceptual image about. So again, the actual object you are meditating on is a concept, but there is no way, no conceptual access to the concept.  It’s an image, it’s a non-conceptual image, it’s a non-conceptual concept. It’s a mind. And it is uninterrupted mind, and you can think of it goes on, but it doesn’t go on. So uninterrupted doesn’t mean it lasts, It means it’s not interrupted by images, nothing can interrupt this mind. However this mind can be transformed in basically three ways, which we have been studying. Now we are looking at, what mind, which can be transformed into things which can be reached by images. What’s the mind that is always there, through all these transformations, which no image interrupts. That the mind the Sutra is suggesting to pay attention to.
One time Dogen Zenji was talking to his teacher Rujing and Rujing said something, he was talking to him about the practice of the Buddhas and Ancestors, is to sit in the middle of the world of suffering of all beings. And by sitting in the middle of this world with all beings, suffering and listening to the cries of the world, there is the birth of what he called in Japanese anyway: Nunushin. Or Joshin. Which means subtle or soft mind, or meekness of mind. And what is that? And then Dogen says “What is that subtle mind?” And Rujing said: “It’s the will..”, and I would say or the Willingness, “the willingness for Body and mind to drop of”. It’s openness to the dropping off of body and mind. That is another ways, I think is being suggested here. To contemplate the inner stream, the undisturbed inner stream, the inner life of the meditating mind. Opening to that, you are opening to body mind dropping off. Opening to that, you are opening to the light turning around or opening to or be willing to let the light turn around and shine back to the mind itself. “And do you find many things here?” The monk says, “When I get here, I don’t find anything at all”. And Yang Shan says to the monk: “This is good for the stage of faith”. In other words, like Asanga said; “You have faithfully done the practice of tranquility”. And by the practice of tranquility you have entered into a – you entered into the mind which doesn’t find anything. Rather you are entering into looking at the mind, and by looking at the mind, you don’t find anything. But there is to practice than this. And the next part is the practice of insight. Were you are going now, starting conceptual images again. Dogen Zenji says, “When you learn this backward step-”
Could you give me the Sutra book there?
“When you learn this backward step and shine light back-”
Student: This one?
TR: Yeah, that is good. Thanks. “-your original face will manifest.” “Learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly” and this translation says, -‘to illuminate yourself’, “-body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest”. What is your original face? It’s a face, which dispenses with any image of your face. It’s a face, which dispenses with any image of your face that you could use to carry meaning about what your face is. That is your original face. Training in this tranquility of this Sutra, this Mahayana Sutra, This is Mahayana-Samatha, - is to open to your face without any image by which you could understand your face. Learning the backward step, this face manifests.
One more early one, early teaching from the Buddha: “Train yourself thus: in the seen there will be just the seen”. So you look at the floor and that’s it. You have no; you give up any kind of way to reflect on what the floor is. “In the heard, there is just the heard; in the tasted there is just the tasted; in the touched there is just the touched; in the smelled there is just the smelled”. In any image, in any image, there is just the image. You are looking at a image with no way to conceptually reflect on it. This is the same as looking at the mind which is contemplated by any mind. If you can look at a color and in the color is just the color, then you may be able to tolerate looking at the mind, which is just the mind, that is always the mind. And then the Buddha says:” When that’s the way it is for you, then in the seen is just the seen, and in the heard is just the heard”. He doesn’t say this quite, but he just about says, ‘your original face will manifest’. What he actually says, is: ‘you won’t identify with it’. He won’t say, that’s my face or that’s not my face. You’ll give up any conceptual way to know which face is yours. And one more thing to start just to say, this is opening to unconstructedness in stillness. That took a long time. So do you…
Did I relate to your question enough, or do you want more about this?
Student: Yeah, I mean, the other translation was clear, I don’t know (turning the tape over) – don’t know if that is correct, if that is the way everybody thinks. Also it seems to take special attention to practice this way.
TR: This text is saying, that what you are contemplating is mind. The mind is generated in such a way, that it has objects. But the objects are not different from mind. It just is that mind is generated in such a way, that its object looks different from itself. But in all those generation, in all those different objects, which are mind, you are always contemplating mind. They appears in different ways, even appears as different mental phenomena, it appears as physical phenomena, it even appears as types of consciousness. You can like, you can say, this is a good state of mind. This is a difficult state of mind. But no matter what state of mind there is that the mind is aware of, you are always contemplating the same mind. But that mind can not be got at by good mind, bad mind and so on. You are actually looking at it. But you are talking about it, as good mind, bad mind, various colors, good and bad things. But it is really the same mind all the time any given moment, that mind is always what you are looking at, but it can be transformed in these different ways. But the different transformations, you are not always looking at those. You are only looking at this transformation right now. But what is the mind, that is always being contemplated, what s the inner stream, the inner life of the mind, what is the light of the mind? What is the mind that is dropped off? What mind is that? What’s the unconstructed mind? And as the monk says, ‘when I get there, I don’t see anything at all’. So another way to look at it is, you are looking at the mind, such that when you look at that, you don’t find anything. And being able to continuously attend, to not being able to find anything, is how it might feel or seem, when you are looking backwards at the mind.
You can’t find people or horses and you also can’t find the mind. But that’s what its like to look at the mind, which is always being contemplated. And that is the tranquility practice of this scripture. Fortunately, it gives rise to Prasrabdhi, which is the actually state of tranquility. ‘The original face manifest’, sounds pretty good, ‘Body and mind drop away’, sounds great. But that is not the end of the path. Now we are ready to practice insight. Because in this realm, that we are cultivating, there is no teaching. We used the teaching on Samatha to enter a realm of light. To contemplate the inner stream of the meditating consciousness. To open to the unconstructedness in stillness. To open to the mystery of dependent co-arising. Not the dependent co-arising, which we have conceptual images of to reflect on and talk about. We have relaxed with that. And if we practice this way, we have a good state of mind now, to turn around and now start looking at conceptual images. Because part of what the Bodhisattva is interested in, which the translation from the Tibetan makes clear, is to expound the teachings. However in order to expound the teachings, we have to eliminate any signs of substantial existence from the teaching, so that we can really teach. So now we have start looking at conceptual images again, and get back into like things having ways to conceptually getting a meaning of them and dismantle this whole thing. But today, we are talking about tranquility. And as I said, I think it is quite difficult to make the transition from focusing on objects that you have some way to conceptually reflect on them and looking at an object that is no way to conceptually reflect on it. Which is again looking at a mind that is uninterrupted by any images, ungraspable by any images.  Yes.
Question:  Is this looking at the mind not what the mind knows, but THAT the mind knows, the ability to know?
TR: Is the looking at the ability to know? You could try that. The ability to know is, -or the ability to think, was Yang Shans instruction, he said, reverse the mind and think back to the ability to think. When we are thinking about something, the ability to think is there, look at it. But continuously, rather then flipping back and forth. Like, ‘Ok here is the thinking about, I look at the ability to think about that, and then I go back to that’. Try to be looking at the ability to think about all the things you are thinking. That’s another instruction. Look at the ability to think. Look at that what which is always there, when thinking is happening. And which can be transformed into various things wherein, through this transformation of consciousness, images or ideas of people and other things arise. But there is that always the ability to think is there. Even if it’s not operating its there.
Question:  Is that the same as to say ‘think of not thinking’?
TR: No, I think it’s the same as ‘think of non-thinking’. But think of non-thinking is the same initial instruction. It’s another way Dogen put it, he says: “Think of not-thinking. And how do you think of not-thinking? Non-thinking”. ‘Not-thinking’ I would acquaint with insight; the removing of the signs of the objects. And ‘non-thinking’ is more like tranquility, learning the backward step. ‘Non-thinking’ is also translated as ‘Beyond-thinking’. So what’s ‘beyond thinking’?  The ability to think.
Question: Sounds different then the merging of  subject and object.
TR: Subject and object aren’t really merged.  I mean, are you suggesting that subject and object are merging?
Student: No, I am saying it sounds different that, then the non-dual space.
TR: Non-duality is not the merging of subject and object. It’s the non-duality of subject and object. They are not merged. They stand very nicely- SUBJECT –OBJECT. ‘I’-subject, ‘I”-object. There are not merged, they are non-dual. If they would merge, there would be no issue. They are not one entity, they are one being. They are part of one event. They are actually not merged.
Student: Tranquility state sounds different then non-dual states….
TR: Well, again, the state of tranquility is, what’s called tranquility in here, is the state of mental and physical pliancy and ease, with which you would be now quite unhindered and joyful to continue to practice tranquility, to continue to practice giving, precepts, patience, diligence and tranquility. You are happy to do those practices and you have no like hindrance to those practices for the time being. And you also would be happy to learn about insight. Anyway, Insight into for example: suchness. And insight into non-duality. In a sense, non-duality is a deeper realization than suchness. We to realize suchness in order to understand non-duality. Yes
Question: I am having a hard time understanding something, I would have thought I clarified a long time ago. And that is mediation relative to Zazen. And my understanding of Zazen is, you observe thoughts and let them go, observe thoughts and let them go. Let them pass through. But Zazen is called meditation. And my understanding or what I hear about mediation on wisdom for instance or meditating on tranquility, sound like mental activities, that you pursue. So I don’t understand what is meditation relative to Zazen?
TR; Well, ‘to mentally attend’, to letting go of thoughts. In fact you can let go of thoughts without mentally attending to them, right? A matter of fact, we do let go of thoughts without mentally attending to them. Like you let go of whatever you were thinking a few seconds ago. Actually there was letting go of it. But did you mentally attend to it?
Student: I think that naturally happened.
TR: The letting go naturally happened. Yeah. So we are talking about mentally attending to a natural accuranse. For you a natural accurance is an inner mind. That is a natural accurance. And the inner mind is constantly being let go of. So now, this actually is a mental activity, it’s an ACTivity. What kind of activity is it? It is an activity of attention. What kind of attention. What kind of attention? Mental attention. What kind of mental attention. What kind of mental attention? It is a continuous mental attention. To what? So you could say to ‘letting go to the mind being let go of’. To the inner stream of mind which is constantly released. So Zazen does include mental activity, but it is not grasping after, -initially it is not grasping after the images,
Student: Or trains of thought?
TR: It’s not grasping after trains of thought. It’s actually more like watching how the trains of thought are released. Watching how looking at the mind which thinks all the trains of thought. Watch the mind that is always there, no matter were there is trains of thought going on or not. No matter what kind of thought or trains of thoughts are going on, -that s not my business right now. My business is: watch the mind which knows all these trains of thought – or whatever. I even don’t know what’s going on actually. I am not really into that right now. Something is going on, I suppose. But I am focusing on, I am turning the light back on the ability to know. I am not focusing on the known. I am talking about the ability to know. I am looking at the mind which knows, rather then what is known by the mind. Usually I am concerned with, what do I know. What’s going on? In other words, ‘what’s going on means’: what do I think is going on.? I am usually concerned with what I think, rather then how I think. I am usually concerned with how my ability to think is manifesting as what I know, rather then, were is my ability to think. Looking at my ability to think is letting go. You can not hold on- I can not hold on to anything, when I look at the ability of this mind to think. When I look at that which is thinking. I can’t  get to much into what is being thought of. That’s the backward step. That’s the backward step. And it is difficult to learn it, I am afraid.
And Dogens’ student – Dogen doesn’t say this so much, he doesn’t say follow the breath – but Dogens student says, in a sense: Put everything and that maybe help you get ready to do this big deal called ‘leaping into the womb of light’, which is the womb of everything let go, everything let go. Everything let go, nothing to hold on to. Or I am looking at the inner stream of the meditating mind, same thing. Many ways to try to describe reversing your thinking process. Its difficult, but it comes to fruit as this excellent state of mind, and you have also a taste of what is like to be free of conceptual reach. You are opening to the Dharma; actually, you see your original face. All that stuff is gonna be revealed to you, if you are willing to give up your can openers.  Does this make more sense?
Student: It helps a lot, let me just say one more question; So could I -.So, I enter the Zendo with an intention that day that I was going to practice wisdom, tranquility and insight, and do all three of them at the same time. Simply by observing my observing mind?
TR: I think that actually I guess I would recommend, that you, if you want to observe your observing mind, just for the sake of – you know, I don’t know what, success- I am going to practice tranquility and later I practice wisdom. Opening to this realm will be conducive to practicing insight, because it says a little bit later in the text, once you’ve attained this state, then you could practicing insight. Ok? It also says before you attained this state of this wonderful state of ease and ‘fitness for all wholesome activities’, have you attained Samatha, and the answer is ‘no’. If you are practicing this way but haven’t yet attained this state, you are practicing with a way that is accord with or that’s lined up with the instructions for practicing and realizing Samatha, but you haven’t attained it yet. And then it says, prior to attaining this mental and physical ease, if you do these studies, if you study these doctrines, and meditate on them, is that insight? And he says, No it’s not Insight if you are not in a state of tranquility. So to some extend we have been doing Vipassana work, that is in accord with Vipassana, but isn’t really the Vipassana, unless we’ve been in these states of tranquility. So, I would suggest, if you want to practice these instructions, that I am bringing up today from the Sutra, that you understand you practicing tranquility, that you are learning the backward step. And again learning the backward step is recommended by Dogen, And I would make that equal to learning non-thinking. Learning to go beyond your thinking. Going beyond your thinking, I would translate as going beyond what you are thinking about. Going beyond thinking more is like ‘turn back and look at your thinking’. Not being concerned what you are thinking about. Which is normal thinking. Thinking which is concerned with what it’s thinking about. Now, forget that for now, and look at the thinking itself. Tranquility practice. Open to your original face and if you can stand to be open to that, you can stand- you will be better able to do wisdom practice. Yes,
Question: I am curious, in you experience is that investing the difference between (not understandable) no thoughts, and then, when thought arises, (not understandable)
TR: I am not; your question kind of wandered a little bit too much about for me, could you try to focus it please?
Student: You could look at what is thinking-
TR: When you are thinking you usually looking at what you are thinking.
Student: Looking at the process of thinking.
TR: But again, looking at the process of thinking could be kind of balanced between looking at the thinking and what you are thinking of. So you can be aware the process of thinking is going on, so I am aware the process of thinking is going on. But now I am trying to look at the ability to be involved in this process and the ability to know these objects. So a little be more emphasis on the ability, then both looking at the ability to think and what’s thought of. Usually what people do is they are way over on the side of what is thought of and they are not giving much attention to the ability to think at all. So shifting back to give some attention to the ability to think is a big transition; a big change. What s your question.
Student: My question is about the difference between the ability, that what you are describing, the ability of thinking and experiencing that ability when there is no thinking involved. As you described, the mind looks back and it can’t find anything at all.
TR: So, if there wasn’t any thinking, I think that would be just a state that is just not very clear. I wouldn’t really be very aware that I was aware, if there was no thinking. In other words, it’s hard to even be clear that I am meditating on the ability to think if there is no thinking going on. But the ability to think could still be available, but it would be very unclear. So that would be kind of- I would be not very aware at that time.
Question: (not understandable), do I label the kind of thinking as a way to understand my observing mind, my mental way in looking at things. Do I say…
TR: That is more Vipassana. That is more insight work, labeling minds, or labeling
Student: Would you give me an example kind of how my ability mind would be observing? Would I be commenting on something?
TR: I think what you again are trying to do now, is you are trying to be involved in discursive thought. So this direction of your mind now, to get a hold of something here, through this conversation, is what is given up in tranquility practice, of this Sutra. That you give up any conceptual image by which you can reflect on this process. It’s different.
Student: Yes, there is quite a gap that is created.
TR: Quite gab is created, yap. Pardon?
Student; -And I am trying to understand how I can be in that state?
TR: Yeah right. I think the way to understand how you can be in that state is, give it a try. And you will find out, how difficult it is to be in that state, because it is really different. It’s a big chance, because you are giving up the mind which is constantly interrupted by interpretation. We are talking about dispensing with the images by which you make meaningful what is going on. This is called ‘dropping of body and mind’. This is called ‘leaping into the womb of light’. Now, you want me to tell you how its like to leap into the womb of light? The womb of light is, when you give up knowing, what it is like to be in the womb of light. Or also, the womb of light is, when you give up some kind of intellectual or conceptual interpretation by which you can make meaningful about where you are. Big chance heh? That what it seems it is taking about to me. Turning the light around. Pretty tough. Usually the light is going out on things, on objects, Bumb bumb bumb bumb bumb – ok now, what is looking out there all the time. What’s the mind that is always looking out there? You can’t get a hold of that, there is nothing there. There are no people, there are no frogs, but also there is also no mind you can’t make into a people or a frog. Like this kind of a mind, or that kind of mind. No.
You won’t find mind –quotes. This is the image, that you are looking for. You can call it ‘inner stream’, you got all these names: ‘inner stream, uninterrupted mind, the mind which is contemplated by any mind’, but this means its non-conceptual this thing you are looking for. No image to make it meaningful “oh, I got it, Oh, I got it” This is what its normally like to look at things – oh, I got Nancy. Oh, I got Eric. Oh, I got my mind. It is not like that. It’s a different way of being; a different way of training. It’s different. It’s a new thing. It’s a new way. It’s the backward step. And your original face is there, waiting for you that you won’t be able to see. Yes.
Question: When I hear these teachings, I take it in question that actual we try a lot of these things and nothing is real. I mean. I try one day when I hear you telling to take the backward step, I try that. And another day I try to see. And the third day I may try insight. And I just wonder, is that is really leading to something or would it not be better just to do one thing until I mastered it, instead of trying what comes to mind. And maybe thereby always going away from the point, because that it’s too difficult, I don’t know.
It just came up to me very clearly when you told that now that, Because I am trying lots of these things, but actually never had anything very deep of that, and it might be better to focus on one picture, one sort of type of instruction.
TR. Yeah, that might me good. Yeah, so just choose one and focus on that one for a while. Like ‘backward step’, or ‘inner stream of the meditating mind’ or ‘non-thinking’ or ‘think back of the ability to think’. One of those. And maybe, and if you get too nauseated, you know, let it go. Let it go. Some instruction may make you sick. Take a rest, and then you can come – instead of switching to another one you just take a rest and come back. That, why following the breath might be kind of a nice resting place. And if you can follow your breath with no image by which that would be meaningful you would be doing the same practice. So that why people stumble upon this practice, while there are following their breathing. Or, by following their breathing wholeheartedly and in the breath there is just the breath, you enter into the state of like, no identification or no disidentification with the breath, you are open to the same realm. So, yeah, jumping around between the instructions maybe – be careful of that. Yes.
Question: I think my question is can you do Vipassana work without such a logic, because I guess I always thought of (don’t understand)
TR: Can you do insight work without conceptual objects? I am not saying you can’t, I am just saying the Sutra is says, that you work with conceptual objects when you do insight work. And part of the reason they want you to work with conceptual objects is because another definition of insight in this chapter, another definition of insight in this chapter is that Vipassana is mental attention to signs. And then another comment is that, in order for Bodhisattvas to accomplish the point of this whole chapter, of this whole tradition. In order for Bodhisattvas to be supremely enlightened, and be able to expound the Dharma in accord with the Dharma, they have to remove the signs, from all objects and all teachings. And what are the signs? The signs are the physical things together with the interpretations that make them substantial. So, the insight work, part of the insight work at least the initial insight work is to pay attention to the conceptual images, signs and remove them. However, in the final stage of conceptual work, I mean of insight, the insight is joined with the non-conceptual image. The training in non-conceptual images is joined with and united with the training in meditation on conceptual images. So then, not only are you first of all meditating on non-conceptual images, attaining tranquility and then meditating on conceptual images. But finally you train in non-conceptual attention and conceptual attention at the same time. And that case, there is no conceptual image. So, there comes a time, even in insight work, there is no- you are not looking at conceptual images. It’s the first part. And the first part in this Sutra is based on having trained yourself in giving up looking at conceptual images for a while. The result of which is that you are in a state of mind where you can really affectively study on conceptual images and signs. That is what this Sutra is saying. But even this Sutra says in the final stages there is one stage of Vipassana where you are studying the signs, there is another stage of Vipassana where you are eliminating the signs. So finally it won’t be that you are not exactly looking at conceptual images, you will have eliminated them. So that is the final thing. So there is a stage of Vipassana where there is no attention to conceptual images, there is no attention to signs. And there is a parallel practice of not paying attention to conceptual signs. So you can spend a lot of time, trying to learn how to not look at conceptual images. There is plenty of room for that, that is hard enough. And then based on success there you can then look at conceptual images. And then finally when they are united you don’t have to look at any more conceptual images. That is the latter part of the chapter. Yes.
Question: So, to follow up on that question you said something like you can have a taste in Samatha and nonconceptual womb of light, of what it is like in that final stage of insight. So would the difference be that you understand how reality is actually like that. In Samatha you understand that form yet, it’s just a state.
TR: You kind of, you do kind of understand it, I mean that how it is for you at that time. But it is just that, can you now go back and look at conceptual image which have signs without believing the signs? And the answer is: no you can not. You have to work with the signs for quite a bit, until you are not caught by them anymore. But in tranquility, in the training of tranquility you are giving up the signs to some extend. You are giving up the conceptual access.
Student: So you are not…
TR: You are willing to be with the world in the way the world actually is. Which promotes your entering into a training course, which is gonna open you to this realization.
Student: You could say like in Samatha you wouldn’t yet know that the world really is like a-, like the difference between that Samatha and Insight.
TR: You wouldn’t be fully convinced. You get a peak, but you don’t really know that this is – even if you think I think this is more true you are not talking like that, so.
So in the Fukanzazengi, Dogen does talk about ‘not thinking’, but not thinking is more related to the insight where you actually like are going to remove the signs. But in order to remove the signs you have to be able to get over your-, put aside your usually thinking for a while and attain tranquility.

And as Asanga puts it, this meditation practice is basically relaxing. Relaxing with the way our mind works usually. Relaxing with it so much that it is like – the mind is reversed from trying to get control of things to look at what it is trying to get in control, what is always there in all these controlling enterprises. Relax with any king of gain any concern for understanding. Concern for understanding is fine, but that is the object of the thinking. Relax with that way of being with this issue.