Thank you for coming to be here with us. I'd like to begin with a introductory ceremony, a ceremony of introduction and recognition. Would each of you say your first name and then have a pause and then everyone repeats your name? Lenore. Shankar. Shankar. Mickey. Susan. Susan. Cynthia. Cynthia. Shirley. Tina. Tina. Karen.

[01:02]

Karen. Roberta. Fred. Homa. Kate. Lucetta. Ann. June. Jack. Elizabeth. Leon. Jean. Mary. Bruce, Dan, Gina, Carl, Linda, Delaney, Anna, Reb. Jean and Mary and Mickey and Cynthia and Shankar.

[02:19]

Linda, is that right? And? Gina. Okay. the title for the retreat, Zen Practice in Birth and Death. Birth and Death is the way the Chinese students of teaching, it's the expression they use for one kind of life. There's one kind of life called birth and death. In India, the term that was used is samsara. Are most people here familiar with the term samsara?

[03:32]

There's actually, now there's perfumes called samsara. Samsara is a kind of going around. It's a kind of life that kind of goes round and round. Birth, death, birth, death. So, that view, that word, samsara, is not necessarily a Buddhist, more just a word that was, I think, predated the historical teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha. It's a view that there's a kind of life which is a cycle of birth and death. It's a kind of a world, It's a life that lives in a kind of world of birth and death. And then there's another kind of life which is called nirvana or nirwana.

[04:39]

And that's a kind of life where there isn't birth and death. Where there isn't this going round and round between birth and death. It's life, it's living but it isn't the birth and death kind of living. And it is possible to have that kind of life by practicing with your life. If you happen to be in a state called nirvana The root of the word is kind of like to mean to extinguish or burn out. And I think one understanding of that is it means to extinguish delusion. Not to extinguish life, but to extinguish delusion. But the understanding of it in the Buddha Dharma is that nirvana means peace.

[05:47]

and Nirvana is the result of understanding understanding life and if life appears to be birth and death if that's the way it looks to you practicing with the appearance of birth and death in such a way that you understand birth and death correctly and by this correct understanding of birth and death one realizes the state of peace, the state of freedom and peace called Nirvana. So I'm proposing that most of us are quite familiar with birth and death. So like we see babies born, almost everybody we see born, we see a lot of babies born maybe we even see some adults born if we have really excellent vision and then we see beings die so we see this world

[07:02]

and there's a way of practicing with this world which is called sometimes it's called Zen practice but it's basically just the practice of the teachings of the Buddhas of the enlightened ones and one style and so I'm talking about that style and I use examples from people who practice that style or those styles that are called Zen I wrote behind me, I think I wrote grasping kind of goes with death and seeking goes with life. Death seeking is life or birth. Grasping is death, seeking is birth.

[08:07]

No grasping is no death and no grasping and no seeking is no birth so the world of stress the world of suffering which is called birth and death that world is characterized that world results from grasping and seeking in the midst of our experience and when we learn to give up grasping and seeking we realize a realm of no birth and no death so I would tell the story that we desire, we want to change we want to become otherwise

[09:11]

We want to improve ourselves. You know, there's a term, now we have these terms self-help books or self-help programs. Self-help is not exactly the same, doesn't need to be the same as self-improvement. Actually, I would propose that self-help, that actually self-help is to give up self-improvement. that would be helpful. If you could learn how to give up self-improvement, that would be actually quite helpful to yourself. Anyway, yeah. And then another side of us is we want to not change. For example, not to get sick, if we're not feeling sick. Not to get old. Not to get... Not to change.

[10:14]

Not to be in constant flux. We want actually... And these two desires are not coherent. They're in a stressful relationship with each other. And most people have both of them. And what some traditions do is make the wish to change, they put that in service of the wish to have an immutable, permanent state. They try to control change in order to realize changelessness. Some people try that. The Buddha's teaching is that that's actually an illusory path, that trying to control change to realize a stable, peaceful state is not going to work.

[11:19]

The Buddhist teaching is basically to learn how to accept, to totally embrace change. And by learning to totally embrace change, to totally embrace birth and death, we realized peace. We realized freedom from the stresses of birth and death and the stresses of proof and wanting to stay the same. So mostly what I'll be talking about is how to really embrace birth and death and offering examples of that from the past and hopefully from this weekend from what's happening now that we actually perhaps could be that way this weekend that we could learn to be here

[12:34]

in this place in the middle those two desires giving them both up and realizing that actually nirvana and samsara that liberation and peace are not separate from birth and death So again, the world of birth and death is not just a realm of change. It's the realm of resisting change.

[13:39]

It's the realm of trying to stop it and trying to get it. It's the realm of not accepting change. the realm of peace is not exactly it's sometimes called the changeless it's sometimes called the changeless because it's not birth there's no birth and no death there so sometimes it's called the changeless but the changeless doesn't mean there's no change That's my understanding. Nirvana as the changeless doesn't mean there's no change. It means that you're always at peace with change. Or, yeah, you're always at peace with change means you're present with change.

[14:52]

You're present with it. So this presence doesn't last for long. It's only for now. And that's the only time you need it. I could say more about what I already said, and I probably will, but I can also stop for the time being before I give an ancient example and see if you have any feedback or questions about what I said so far.

[16:09]

We have a piece of equipment we use in Zen practice places, which is called, we use the Chinese word for it, which is Han, a wooden board. And we hit this wooden board to let people know that in a few minutes there will be sitting meditation practice. And on that board it says, birth and death is the great matter, the great effectiveness. We're really concerned about birth and death because beings are suffering in the realm of birth and death and we're really concerned about that. It's really important. And everything's, you know, changing and in flux.

[18:03]

So, pay attention. Pay attention. Don't waste this opportunity to pay attention to birth and death. What occurs in birth and death And we do not say that birth and death is ultimately true. We just say it's really important to take care of birth and death. Did you have some question, Roberta? Does that help? Yeah. So Zen practice, we are encouraged to pay attention to birth and death.

[19:16]

And we're also encouraged to pay attention to see if the... are grasping. If we see any birth and death or see any grasping, we are encouraged to be intimate with that. And if we're intimate with it, we will realize the birth and death really are. And realizing the way they really are without eliminating them without messing with them at all, we realize freedom. What birth and death really are is the way everything is. You know, the way everything is applies to birth and death. Does that make sense? No?

[20:17]

How wonderful! The way a Zafu is... really, is the way a bell is, really. The truth of each thing is ultimately the same. The way you are, and the way Mickey is, and the way Cynthia is, really, ultimately, is the same. And so birth and death would also be like you and me and everything else. everything is, you could say, one way to say it is everything is insubstantial. If birth and death weren't insubstantial, if seeking and grasping weren't insubstantial, then they'd have to be. Things would have to be that way. But since they aren't, things can be another way.

[21:19]

There can be no grasping and no seeking. That could happen. Right while there's grasping and seeking. And there could be birth and death right while there's no birth and no death. And also, no birth and no death are also the same as birth and no death are also insubstantial. Peace is insubstantial. Freedom is insubstantial. A substantial freedom is not freedom. It's a big, heavy rock around on top of your shoulder, whatever, pulling you down into substantiality. But there is no substantial thing, so don't worry about it. And if you worry, then all you've got to do is treat the worry the same way you treat birth and death. In the same way you treat everybody and everything. How do you do that? In practice.

[22:21]

What's Zen practice? I already told you, what is it? What's Zen practice with all this stuff? Paying attention. And? Taking care of? Paying attention, taking care of to the point of intimacy. completely taken care of, completely paying attention, paying so much attention that there's not even you and it. Paying so much attention to birth that there's not you and birth. Paying so much attention to sickness and old age and death that there's not you and sickness, old age and death. That's the practice. That way of taking care of that leads to intimacy and is intimacy I will expand but just for now I want to make that statement and see if that basic idea is clear that there's a way of being with birth and death that's freedom from birth and death is that clear?

[23:37]

that I'm saying that anyway? Being with birth and death, that's freedom from birth and death, is a way of being with birth and death where you realize what birth and death are. And when you realize what birth and death are, you also realize what nirvana is. You realize what peace is. And you realize that peace and stress are not separate and have the same nature. But before we're intimate with birth and death, peace looks different from stress. Freedom looks different from bondage. And afterwards, after we do actually realize intimacy with birth and death and the stress of birth and death, after we realize intimacy, still peace looks different from stress. Still looks different. It's just we realize that they're not separate. So you can be stressed and at peace.

[24:38]

You can have conflict and be at peace. You don't have to get rid of the world of birth and death in order to be free. You don't have to get away from the people who aren't enlightened when you're enlightened. You don't... are not something to avoid when you're enlightened. When you're not enlightened, a lot of not enlightened people want to get away from the not enlightened people, especially the severely not enlightened. A little bit of not enlightened is cute, but if they're really like little kids, they're just getting the hang of it, right? They're so cute. They're totally deluded, but it's so adorable the way they're deluded. Like we even like... People save, you know, they put on their answering machine the mispronunciation, you know.

[25:42]

It's so cute to hear the way they don't say words in a normal way. It's so cute the way they, the theories they come up with. Like my grandson says to me, granddaddy, what's your favorite animal? And I said, humans and he said, not animals. And he did that for quite a few years. He kept asking me, and I'm sorry to say, still humans are my favorite animal. They're not animals. Now he's different. Now he says they are. And it's not that I was right, it's just that it was cute that he had this strong... I mean, I know they're not animals, but they are my favorite animal. Okay, Zen practice. We will talk more about that. As a matter of fact, now we will have a great example of it. Zen practice.

[26:43]

Okay? Now you know. Don't tell anybody, okay? Don't tell. Don't tell. That was not funny. Can you read that, Roberta? Would you read it to me? Would you read it to me, please? Would you read it to me, please? Loudly? No, I want you to say... I want you to read... Okay, ready? Go ahead. I'm happy.

[27:46]

I'm here. Okay. So this says... These words say, I think... says, Master Ma is unwell. I put this statement, Master Ma is unwell, in front of the Buddha. This is an example of somebody who was pretty much a Buddha. Chinese disciple of Buddha who was considered to be, who really understood birth and death. And he was unwell, really unwell. He was on the verge of death. Now, the situation was kind of auspicious because although he was on the verge of death, he had many, many disciples.

[28:59]

while he was on the verge of death. And they got to see how he practiced Zen with death. And a lot of things happened probably while he was practicing Zen. But there's one story about him which is the one I'm going to tell you about which is called Master Ma was unwell. So while he was unwell and practicing Zen while he was unwell and in his state of realizing that peace that freedom was not separate from death and birth.

[30:05]

In that practice situation his students, his successors, came to visit him. And one of them was, I believe, the superintendent of his monastery. The director of his monastery came to him and said, How is your venerable health these days? That's a traditional inquiry to make upon someone who's sick in the tradition. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. For some reason this statement was made about twelve hundred years ago in China and for some reason many this is one of the most outstanding responses one of the most outstanding expressions of

[31:28]

the oneness of nirvana and samsara in the history of the Zen school. It's, you know, I must admit I can barely understand why this is such a great thing to say. But maybe this weekend I'll understand it better. I actually feel a little more intimate with it today than I ever have before. because I'm talking to you about it and I'm getting more intimate with this story and I hope this story helps me become more intimate with death this is a story of somebody who the tradition believes was able to practice with death or was able to practice with dying in a way that he could say this

[32:56]

among the many things he could say, I'm not too bad, or don't worry about me, or don't cry, I'm okay, or don't be attached to me, or I'm scared of dying. He could have said that too, but he didn't. And some Zen teachers have said, when their students came and asked them, they have said, I'm scared of dying. And some people have really appreciated these teachers, these people who are supposed to be teachers of how to be intimate with being unwell, that they've said, I'm scared. But this doesn't mean he's not scared of dying. Doesn't mean he's not scared of dying. Doesn't mean that. Do you understand? Master Ma is unwell. The story could be, I think, Master Ma was scared of dying.

[34:02]

Master Ma was worried that he might have to leave soon and that some of his students needed him around a little longer. Unwell can be, could be pretty much, you name it. this unwell could be expanded to include all the ills of the world. For somebody who is really intimate with their birth and death, they are open to all suffering. In that intimacy, you're open to all suffering, all anxieties, all fears. So one way to understand this, which he doesn't say, literally, is Master Ma was a master. That's Master Ma. And because he was a master of this practice, he was open to all kinds of unwell.

[35:12]

People who are not masters are open to all kinds of being unwell. Like most of us are open to some kinds of being unwell. Like, you know, for example, if I have a cold or a headache, but particularly a cold, but I can still live and I can read, then I just take some time off from work and, you know, Read. Like when I was a little boy, I used to sometimes get sick and stay home from school and listen to the radio. And my mom brought me nice, you know, tomato soup and Wonder Bread sandwiches. And I had fun, you know, looking out the window at the snow, listening to the radio, not at school, with, you know, with a cold. It was like that. I was like open to that suffering without much training. But when I have a headache and I can't read, then I maybe have a little trouble with being open to, well, not only am I not able to work or exercise, but I can't read, and actually I'm not even comfortable in bed, and I don't have an appetite.

[36:36]

I don't know about this suffering. I don't know about this unwell. Maybe not. No thanks. So my understanding is that the Zen master is unwell means he was good at it. That he didn't have any resistance to it. That's the first story that I'm sharing with you. And what does he say when they ask him how he is? He could say, and some of the other stories I'll tell you, I'm totally open to all illness. As a matter of fact, I'm so ill, I'm so open to it that you could say I'm ill. The people who are on the path to Buddhahood are ill.

[37:43]

because they're open to illness their body may be relatively not ill but they're open to other people's illness or their body may...their body and mind the point is they're open to it the point is they accept it and not just illness but they accept change so but change is often painful And this expression, by the way, comes from, there's a scripture, which Master Ma probably read, and it's a scripture which has, I think, 1,193 names of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Anybody not familiar with the term Bodhisattva? Raise your hand.

[38:50]

Okay, so it's a list of a lot of names of Buddhas and beings who are on the path to bliss. And one of the Buddhas was named Moon-Faced Buddha and another Buddha was named Sun-Faced Buddha. And Moon-Faced Buddha lived one day and one night. Amazing Buddha. In this world, we're used to Buddhas that live about 80 years. Or at least 35. Or 40 or 50. But one day and one night, that's kind of an astounding Buddha. Moon-faced Buddha. And then there's sun-faced Buddha who lived 1800 years. It's a sun-faced Buddha. That's like A long life plus more.

[39:55]

Have the Buddha around a long time. How nice. Sun-faced Buddha. So he said, Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. That's how he was. Well, that's what he said anyway. I think part of the reason why I've had trouble with this story for the last few decades just one theory I have is that it's pretty hard to it's pretty hard to get a hold of his response but this is how he is he's not actually saying about, he's not actually talking about his illness he's talking about the way he's relating to his illness He's actually not talking about his illness, and he's not talking about somebody else's illness either. That's my guess.

[40:56]

Does that make sense? He's not talking about other people's. He's talking about how he relates to his and other people's. Years before, when he was not so sick, people might not have been asking him, or they might have asked him, how's your venerable health when he was like looking really healthy people still might have asked him people ask me about my health even when they don't think I look terribly sick they ask me my suggestion is that when he was asked about his health, that he really wasn't talking just about his, and he wasn't talking about just other people's, he was talking about everybody's health. And what did he say? Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha.

[41:58]

It's hard for me to understand what sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha is. I can't get a hold of sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. It would be Yeah, I can make up some other things that I think I might be able to get a hold of. It's a perfectly good answer to say, I feel really bad, or I'm concerned about your health, dear student. A lot of other things maybe I think I could get a hold of. But this statement, I feel I can't get a hold of it. and now I'm feeling more comfortable than ever and more at peace than ever not being able to get a hold of sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha hearing sun-faced Buddha moon-faced Buddha and not grasping I feel these words are initiating me into not grasping

[43:08]

hearing these words, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, and not seeking to understand them any better than I do now, I feel initiates us into no birth. hearing these statements and not seeking or grasping anything. And these statements seem to be saying, Hello, I'm here. And don't you see that you shouldn't be grasping me? Hello, I'm giving you a gift. Don't you see that this is not to be sought for or grasped? Please see if you can relate to my illness and your illness and all of our illness. See if you can relate to it. seeking or grasping. Isn't what I'm saying unseekable and ungraspable enough? And I would say, now, yes, it is sufficiently unseekable and ungraspable.

[44:15]

Thank you. I now rest my case in anything. And not seeking anything different from that or not grasping my lack of understanding. Again, there's quite a bit more responses to this story that I could share with you, but I feel maybe it's good for me to stop and see how you're doing. See how you're not doing. Did you want to say something, Homa? Please come up here. Please come up here.

[45:15]

Please come up here. Please. Come up here. Please stand up. Okay. Did you want to say something before or after the pillow fight? I was just listening. She can use me. You can put that down there, though. Thank you. Just in case somebody doesn't want to use me. Yes? I was just listening to you. Can you hear her okay? Did you hear what she said? Yeah, right. Yes? I was just listening and listening and listening and listening. Good night. And all your...

[46:16]

describing in the world all I hear is the light. It is that light that that Master is. Right. Delight in the light. Master Ma. Yes. Delight that somebody can be radiant in his death yes that we and maybe we could learn how to delight not in the death not in the birth but delight in the that's not separate from it yes somehow somehow i i want to uh bring this into my imagination to imagine so maybe because you're already doing it I have no clue you're already imagining it that's already going on now you're imagining this delight and I am too now can we imagine any of this light or seeking any of this light

[47:45]

That is ungraspable. Yeah, can we imagine accepting that it's ungraspable? And then maybe by that imagination, imagine ourself into not grasping. That doesn't come to my imagination. That didn't come to your imagination? The ungraspableness of it is its nature. It's not. in the imagined. That part, maybe it is in the imagined. No, it's not in the imagination, but here you are, and I have a story, I have the imagination that you're a human being. I imagine that. And I imagine that you're an imaginer. So you're going to be imagining anyway, so why not imagine something that's not imagination? Why not imagine not grasping? Why not imagine being like Master Ma?

[48:49]

Master Ma doesn't imagine. Master Ma doesn't imagine? She said, whoa. You know, blank reb? Blank reb disagrees that Master Ma doesn't imagine. If you don't imagine, then not grasping is no big deal. If you don't imagine and you don't seek or grasp, nirvana is when there's imagination going on that you don't grasp or seek it. It's not like take away all the imagination. Yeah, I didn't do any grasping. As soon as the imagination comes back, you start grasping. Unless you can grasp, there is imagination. He does have imagination. He's imagining... I don't know what he's imagining. He's probably imagining he's talking to a student. Or that a student's asking him questions.

[49:53]

So his student comes and says, how are you feeling, teacher? And he can imagine that the student asked him the question, and he... Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. So he's a great master, but he's not... He's imagining just like us. He's showing us how... we can be without changing the way we are and become free of the way we are. I'm not grasping. I didn't? I didn't? Yeah, okay, she's not grasping. Then where is he? Yeah, right, that's another good question. But that's the end of the story. But the story could go on. Homa came in and said, where are you, teacher? Come in and say it. I'm not sure where you are. Tell me where you are. That could have been the question too. Instead of asking him how he's feeling, you could have said, where are you? Or, you know, when I was a kid, there was a TV show called The Lone Ranger.

[50:56]

It was about this Texas ranger that, not in the regular ranger group, they called him the Lone Ranger. And he wore a mask. At the end of the show, they say, who was that masked man? Who was that Zen teacher? Where is he? Where does he go when he rides away? Where is he? That's another story that we'll have tonight. Okay, I'm going to stay in the question. Stay in the question, thank you. Stay in the question. How is your health, Master? Yes, please come. Yes, thank you. Please come. Shankar. Shankar. Shankar. So I thought a story for a story would be a nice bargain. Yes. And I thought I might as well share what happened with physical pain brought me 10 years ago and also 2 years ago.

[52:04]

Actually beginning of last year, so about 15 months ago. 15 months ago was an interesting experience. The garage door fell on my right shoulder, and I was trying to fix it around Christmas time. For a few days, nothing happened. I felt fine. I didn't feel the need to go to a doctor. But then the pain started. It got stronger and stronger. First, I was sleeping six hours, then four, then two, because I'd get up in excruciating pain. I was in this dilemma. Should I go and check? So I went and checked. X-rays, everything fine. But then the doctor said, oh, this looks like you have autoimmune issues and maybe this, maybe that. Looks like you're not immune to garage doors. Exactly. And I'm not immune to autoimmune diseases. Oh, my God. What do I do now? Finally, I like Google, so I started searching. I said, there must be some meditation I can use to understand this pain.

[53:08]

And luckily for me, I found Xin Zhan Yao. And it's called pain meditation. So I said, this is physical pain. I'm not able to sleep more than two hours. Do pain meditation on it. So I started watching the pain. without getting into all the details, all I was doing was watching the pain as it would grip me. I would get up, I would go to sleep at 10, and I would get up at 1 o'clock, and I would wake up. And the excruciating pain, the fear of dying in the pain, and the fear of, oh my God, I have to go to surgery now, the shoulder is broken, now the upper back and lower back and the glutes and everything. And then it would change. Sometimes the pain stayed on for two hours. And I continued watching and watching and watching. there was no pain.

[54:10]

For a long time, there was no pain, and I was ecstatic. So I thought that was the end of the story. So in July, and then for 10 days, Silent meditation, just mindful awareness. And there came back the pain because I was sitting for 10 hours. And I was like, okay, now what do I do? This time I didn't ask a question because I knew the answer was to watch. But there was pain, so much pain. Tears rolling and I just kept watching. I went and told the teacher, when I wash the pain, sometimes the pain disappears, but I then get into ecstasy. He said, what do you mean? I said, I get into these ecstatic states of like I'm high on some drug. Fortunately, he was a doctor. He said, what? I said, it's like having 10 times the normal dosage of sodium hydrochloride, which is like speed. He said, how do you know?

[55:11]

I said, I've had it 25 years ago, I know. And what should I do? He said, just breathe, breathe. When it's getting too much, just breathe. Back. So it was interesting. It's like the balance between feeling the pain and watching the pain. And I don't quite understand this, but I understand the balance between grasping and not grasping. That has been my way of being happy the last 15 months. There's times when I'm angry, sad, and then I loosen my grasp on that anger, loosen my grasp on that sadness, loosen my grasp on that lustiness, and it seems to... And then there are times when I feel ungrounded. Oh my God, what the heck is happening? So it's all fuzzy and so I don't seem to have motivation. Then I grasp something because I have to do something.

[56:14]

I have to go to work. There's a schedule. There's a meeting. There's children to be taken care of. So there are times when ungrasping becomes a formula and then it ceases to ground me. You start grasping then not grasping. Exactly. And I seem to grasp the ungrasping-ness of it and become entangled in that. I get attached to detachment. Right. And wonderful that you see that. Sometimes. Wonderful that you sometimes see that. Sometimes I don't see it then. Yeah. And it's interesting, this whole drama unfolds in so many different ways. When you don't see it, I have no comment. When I don't see it, I start writing for it. Because I can still express it. I can express the confusion, sometimes in words, sometimes in dance, sometimes it just goes off. Right. But often I can see the drama between grasping and grasping.

[57:14]

wonderful so if you keep this up for a while you will become like Master Mao Master Mao was just like you when he was a young man any other responses to what's been offered so far yes please come Is that what you want? That's a good idea. I think it's an excellent idea, a pillow fight. Do you want a pillow fight? Yes, I do. Okay. Okay. Get a pillow. Okay. There. Thank you. Now we fight with the pillows. Anything else? We have a problem, yeah.

[58:19]

When you were talking about sun-faced Buddha and moon-faced Buddha, and you were talking, I think, about how we shouldn't try to grasp or understand. I don't think I said you shouldn't. You probably didn't. You wouldn't. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying that we shouldn't seek. That's called birth and death. But I'm not saying you shouldn't be in birth and death. Okay. I'm just saying if you are, then we'll work with that. Well, so I wanted to tell you the story of what happened because, and I just was thinking just now when you just said if you grasp and seek, then that's called good. And birth and death. Yes, that's right. One could say that. One just did. Yeah, one just did. So when you were talking about that, I had this, I was going to say an image, but it's more like it's in my body. It's like this moon-sun thing.

[59:24]

And so what it meant to me was sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. It's like, you know how the moon comes up when the sun goes down, the full moon, you know? It's just like this constantly, or no, it was turning this way, though. It was kind of. It's all the same. Sun, face, Buddha, moon, face, Buddha, it's all the same. And it's everything. It's completely everything. And it's not separate. It's just good. Sun, face, Buddha, moon, face, Buddha. Yeah. Is Roberta okay? She's tired. Okay. Roberta, I don't know what Roberta's age is, but Roberta has been coming to the retreats here at Mount Madonna for quite a while.

[60:36]

And Roberta is still coming to Mount Madonna. And I feel very happy that she comes. I hope she can keep coming. We're very fortunate that Roberta is able to come again this time. And she was tired. And maybe some of you are tired, too. So... So, is there anything you'd like to say tonight before I say some concluding remarks? Any other feedback you'd like care to offer this evening about the practice of being intimate with birth and death. I just want to say that I guess you have a schedule and so tomorrow morning at 6.30 we will

[61:50]

We'll come here and sit. And when you sit, please face the walls rather than this way. So we'll do 30 and then we'll have half an hour of sitting and then we'll have walking meditation and another half an hour of sitting and walking meditation. Then we'll have, again, some more discussion of practicing Zen. Maybe we'll talk a little bit more about this example of the way this master practiced with birth and death. If you want to meet with me individually, I'll call Donna, as you know, and she can arrange the appointment. Is there anything else, any questions about how we proceed that you want to bring up?

[62:52]

Did you ask me to have a workshop on death colons? This is the workshop on death colons. This is the first death of this workshop. The Kahn of Master Ma Unwell. It doesn't say in the story that right after he said Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha, that he died. But he died. He said this. Yes. Yes. You want to hear more about what I mean by intimacy? At some point, at some point, prior to the end of time. By the way, intimacy, in intimacy, there's no leaning into time.

[64:22]

among other things. Anything else tonight? You familiar with the word koan? It means literally public case and it means example, public example of what? Of practicing the Buddha way in some situation in birth and death. The practicing in the Buddha way in nirvana, there's not really any stories about that separate from the stories of practicing the Buddha way in samsara. So, In the samsaric situation we have birth and death, like we have the beginning of sentences and the end of sentences, the birth of sentences and the death of sentences, the birth of words and the death of words, the arising of things and the ceasing of things.

[65:33]

This is where public life, this is where our communal life usually appears. So in the world where there's a rising and ceasing, where there's language, where there's suffering and things like that, where there's you and me, in that realm we have these stories of how it's possible to be enlightened and be peaceful in time that there's birth and death. So this is the first story I offer you. Thank you very much. Goodnight.

[66:12]

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