In the form of a question, as you were talking about perfect wisdom, there I was listening. While listening to the words of perfect wisdom, my mind was in the dream of the perfect wisdom. Right. It's like, oh, this is my dream. This is my ultimate dream. So one part of it is like, how do I... Is there really a way not to be in the dream or this dream will continuously be unfolded itself as the dream itself or what is it? The dream of perfect wisdom is like the dream of disrespect. So in the dream of perfect wisdom there's no way There's no basis for any apprehension.

[01:02]

And there's a perfect wisdom in the dream of perfect wisdom. In the way that your dream of perfect wisdom has no basis for grasping. You can grasp a dream, and grasping a dream is what we usually call a dream. You're aware of a dream. But there's no basis for any way to get a hold of the dream, and that's right in the dream. And that's perfect wisdom. So it's okay to dream of injustice and justice and perfect wisdom. They're all phenomena and their lack of a way to grasp is perfect wisdom. So you can realize perfect wisdom in the middle of the dream of perfect wisdom. And you can realize stress and suffering if you grasp your idea of wisdom. And if you grasp your idea of compassion, there won't be liberation.

[02:09]

However, we have to grasp our idea of compassion for starters. Otherwise, we can't get any foothold in compassion. We have to practice compassion towards our dreams in order to realize the way of not grasping it. But right in our dream of compassion and right in our dream of perfect wisdom, the truth is there in both. The truth is all-pervasive. It's in everything. And the truth we're teaching is that the liberating truth is that there's no basis for getting a hold of anything. And that is in all things. And that is perfect wisdom. So perfect wisdom is all-pervading. And the truth, it realizes, is the same. And it's in all things. And we have to practice compassion towards all things.

[03:10]

First of all, according to our idea of compassion. And then finally to practice compassion free of our idea of compassion. And then the next question that's rising in me. Would you like to hold this? Yes, thank you. I'm just wondering if this truth itself I guess, yes, it does, manifests its own in the form and if there is also a perfect manifestation. No, can I say something? You said this truth itself. This truth is a truth that doesn't have a self. Yeah. It doesn't have itself. It's the truth of, it's a truth that things don't have a self, including itself. The truth of not having a self doesn't have a self either. So the truth that liberates us doesn't have a self.

[04:15]

Okay. Just by the way. Yes. Yes. So let me see how I can speak this. Yeah, how can you speak this? One, two, three, four. Okay. Okay. Here's the question. Okay, here it is. What is it and why is it for me to see which cannot be seen? Why do I keep seeing what cannot even be seen?

[05:18]

That's my question. As a consequence of past seeing you can now see things. As a consequence of past thinking you can now think. So therefore everything I see is the past? No. Everything you see is based on the past. and the past that it's based on is not things that are gone. It's the past. Actually, everything you see is based on the consequences of the past. Everything we've done has consequence and the main consequence of everything we've done, everything we thought, the main consequence of it is a mind which supports dreams. And we are encouraged to accept this situation Compassionately because accepting the situation compassionately where our dreaming, our thinking is based on the consequence of our past thinking.

[06:27]

We accept this, we have a chance to actually wake up from the dream and be free of it without disturbing the dream at all. So we don't try to push the dream away. We've got it. We've got dreams. So we're going to keep dreaming. We're going to keep dreaming until complete perfect Buddhahood. Until all this is left is perfect wisdom. Until then, our life will keep producing dreams. And the dreams will be produced, supported by the consequence of past dreaming. And would there be a dream which has no past dreaming? is there such a dream as no past dreams? there's no dreams there's no basis for grasping dreams and there's no dreams without a basis and the basis is past karma but that basis isn't a basis for grasping the dreams it's a basis for something that can't be grasped to appear in a false way so dreams look like they can be grasped and we basically can't resist it

[07:43]

But we can still hear teachings which are saying, oh, that grasping is suffering. The definition of suffering is grasping these appearances as having some basis to grasp. And that's painful. So right there, or that's injustice, or that's insult, or that's respect, or that's, you know, it's all those things. Right there, the truth is always right there. And so we can realize the truth virtually innumerable times while the dreams are still appearing. And the realizing the truth transforms the dreaming process in such a way the dream process does finally stop and then all there is is wisdom and that wisdom then just relates to all the beings that still are into it. So it isn't like the wisdom goes, this wisdom doesn't go away because it doesn't actually come or go, it's just fully realized, and then it becomes a light for all beings who have not completed the process.

[08:50]

So like we say, the perfection of wisdom is a light for all beings. But the perfection of wisdom itself is not, you know, ideas and things. It's just the light of all things which liberates beings from suffering. And it's possible that living beings evolve to a point where they just, all their past karma has been matured and seen for what it is, and then it's over. And all there is is this wisdom which then brings light to beings who have not finished the process. Because the reason for this whole process is to liberate beings. So the reason keeps going on and this wisdom keeps working to free beings from darkness and delusion. But, you know, practically speaking, we have quite a while to go before we've completely transformed our whole history into perfect wisdom.

[09:54]

So, you know, part of it is to be about a long-term practice and really be willing to keep working at it as long as people need us to be who we are moment by moment. Thank you so much for showing me the direction. You're welcome. No, you don't have to come up. You're invited to, but you don't have to. It's just an invitation. And then if you come up here, you're closer to me, and also you can use this if you want to, and people can hear you. Thank you. You're welcome. What's your name? I'm Laura. Laura. That's Homa. I'm new. You're new. We're all new. We're all new. We're brand new, although this is an older new than has been here before.

[10:55]

So there's a lot of grasping in my question, I'm thinking. Good for you. I am aware to some extent of kind of barnacles in my perceptions that I just stay open to and, as you said, maybe stay compassionate with, thinking, well, that will just release them. I don't have to fight them, right? But when this morning... your talk was helping me with furthering that direction, but I kept thinking, well, there's a part of me that if I don't tend to issues where other people don't have the luxury of this type of reflection, let's say human trafficking or something, it was around the justice-injustice idea, that I'm copping out To just stay within.

[11:59]

This is a question that would, I think, come up in people's minds in response to what I was saying. So, if you see some horrible thing like, you know, using children or whatever for, you know, exploiting children in an unwholesome way, on top of exploiting them, doing it in an unwholesome way. You could exploit children in a wholesome way too, like, you know, get them to learn math or something. But in a kind of exploitative way, right? But now we're talking about the worst possible thing that human beings can do. One of the worst things we can do to each other is that kind of thing. So if you hear about that, many of us think, oh, I would like to protect children from that, or women and men from that kind of exploitation and abuse. I would like to protect them. And so the thing is, I'm saying, if you wish to protect them, study yourself.

[13:06]

And then you think, and what was it you used? That would be... Copping out. Copping out, yeah. So I think, it's quite common, I think, to notice that that might be copping out. But the reason that it's recommended is because You will not be as effective... You will not be effective, really. You can be somewhat effective in protecting beings even if you don't notice your own shortcomings. You can still help people somewhat. But you can help much better if you're aware of your own shortcomings. It isn't necessarily that you're... abusive like that, but there's some other shortcomings you have. And the main shortcoming you have, that we all definitely have, is that we're grasping our idea of what's going on. So if I see some situation that I think is abusive, my shortcoming, my main shortcoming I'm probably involved in, is thinking that there's some basis for me to apprehend this story of injustice.

[14:14]

That's my shortcoming. If I address that shortcoming, then I can look back at the same situation and see that there's no basis. And then not only do I see this situation where beings can be harmed, but there's wisdom. And if I speak to the situation now, I'm not speaking from the point of view of, I've got the truth of the situation. You know, I see what it is, and what I see what it is, is what it is, really. Rather than, the way I'm grasping it, there's no basis to it. My view of this injustice, there's no basis for grasping my view. But this is my view. And according to my view, I am really concerned and I have something to say. Now, if you do not grasp your view of injustice, you will not be afraid For you will not be afraid.

[15:18]

And that really helps you say in a non-violent way, you know, whatever, you know. One, two, three o'clock, four o'clock, five, six. You can dance these people out of the abuse rather than come in holding on to the truth that they're wrong. which makes you afraid and makes them afraid of you and makes them not listen to you and it drains your energy. So if you want to work to protect beings, the teaching here is study your own shortcomings. If I see beings and they seem to be harming each other, I don't want them to harm each other, of course. Let's say I don't, anyway. In a case where I don't, where I want them to be kind to each other and be happy together, when I want that, and I think it's not happening, this is my view, they may think they're having a good time.

[16:26]

Right? People are like poisoning themselves and they think, hey man, this is fun. It's not a problem. I don't have to go to meetings. This is fine. It's okay. And you know it's not okay. Rather, you think it's not okay. You think they're poisoning themselves and each other. You think they're harming each other. That's what you think. If you want to help these people and protect them from what you think is harmful, look at yourself. What are you doing? You don't have to be doing that poisoning thing. But you're grasping. And they're grasping too. And they're taking the poison as an attempt to free themselves from the pain of the grasping. This is what they think will be refuge from the pain of grasping. If you grasp, you still might be able to help them somewhat. But to really free them, you shouldn't talk down to them. And if you've got the truth and they don't, well, you're kind of like looking down on them.

[17:30]

And this is not liberating. So, there is a possibility to cop out. So you have to look, am I using this teaching to cop out of my responsibility? Well, that's another kind of grasping. And if I see that, and I see there's no basis for this cop-out, there's no basis for cop-out, you will stop copping out. You will be free of copping out, and you will be free of copping in, and you will be free of self-righteousness, and you will be free of unrighteousness. All these things have the same nature. And people take different positions, and then they change positions. They switch from student to teacher and back, you know. We're constantly taking different positions. The question is, do we hold to them? And the answer is, usually. Well, then recognize that, be with that, and realize there's no basis for that position. That's helpful, and I'm thinking my struggle is conviction and judgment.

[18:39]

There's a fine line, but maybe both are grasping as concepts. Yes. Maybe. And being open to that maybe that's grasping at concepts is part of the path to becoming free of grasping at concepts. Now, I'm presenting a conviction. The conviction is that the liberating wisdom is a wisdom that doesn't grasp. That's a conviction. But if I think that that conviction can be grasped, that's antithetical to what I just said. So I have a conviction and I watch to see am I grasping that conviction? Which I should not be doing because there's no basis for grasping the conviction that not grasping is what liberates. This teaching would mean the wisdom which sees there's no grasping that that would not be grasped either. That you can't grasp the truth that you can't grasp. And you can't grasp the wisdom that doesn't grasp.

[19:42]

I shouldn't say you can't grasp it. There's no basis for it. And if you don't see the no basis, then you naturally will grasp everything. You even grasp, imagine that you can grasp, like Thomas said, you can have a dream of perfect wisdom. Right? That's a wonderful dream. Fine. Are you grasping it? Yes. Okay. What are we going to do with that? We'll listen to the teaching that there's no basis for this grasping and keep listening to that teaching and be kind to the grasping until you're ready to renounce the grasping. That you really feel, okay, all right, I'm okay not being able to grasp the wisdom I'm not grasping. But you don't skip over anything. Any harm, any pain you see in people's face, any happiness you see in people's face, any approval you see, any disapproval you see, everything you see Don't cop out. Take care of it. Address it. Meet it. Meet it. Meet everything. And then remember the teaching.

[20:46]

What's the teaching again? Oh, this is my image of what's going on. And actually, am I grasping it as real? Yeah, I am. Okay. Then I confess that. Now could I give it up? I'd like to. Okay. And then sometimes you give it up and you can't grasp the giving up either. If you can grasp giving up, you're not giving up. You're stuck again. Yes, please come if you wish. Don't get ahead of your knees. Thanks for your attention, Rishi. You're very welcome. Thanks for coming. Yeah. It's on the schedule.

[21:49]

Thank you. It was on my schedule, too. Oh, good. So, I've been, I don't know if I've been playing, but I've been, emptiness has been kind of coming up a lot for me. Just, and... I feel like it's been this domino effect of I started tasting the blue pill and then I swallowed it and now I'm feeling kind of like I'm losing my footing because a lot of stories that have I don't know, felt like my body, felt like part of me are becoming less true or maybe, you know, just less.

[22:53]

And so I guess my question is that it feels kind of overly bright and overly dark simultaneously and how to, you know, I think about the Heart Sutra, and after the negations, the bodhisattva relies on prajnaparamita. Well, when prajnaparamita is too painful, what does the bodhisattva rely on then? How do I? Well, if there's pain, then you practice compassion towards the pain. If there's fear of the light or the dark that seems to come up as you're listening to these teachings, well, that pain and that fear, now you can work with those. And being grounded in being compassionate to those and being familiar with these pains and these fears around this practice,

[23:58]

that grounding is really appropriate and necessary for the teaching to really be beneficial. So just taking care of things is not sufficient for liberation. But liberation will not happen if you don't take care of things. So the teaching that teachings of perfect wisdom are not appropriate unless you're taking care of the more or less... anyway, the various stories that you have. This teaching is not appropriate unless you're taking care of those. If you take care of them, then the teaching is more appropriate. As you start to look at the teaching, then maybe new kinds of things come up that don't come up when you're not taking care of the teaching. New fears

[24:59]

new pains. Again, the teaching about these new fears and new pains that their emptiness, their liberating emptiness is not appropriate unless you're grounded in those new pains and new fears. So if you take care of whatever and you start to be opening to the lack of apprehension, opening to their insubstantiality, you have experiences you didn't have before. You have experiences which come with that opening. It's not even these new experiences. But these new experiences or these new dreams, they should be treated like the old ones. And then they will open you again to new tastes of insubstantiality, which will lead to, again, new opportunities for grounding in conventional things like tastes, touches, pains, pleasures, fears, and so on.

[26:16]

So it shouldn't go too long without actually having some concrete phenomena to look at and notice whether there's clinging or not, and then again if you say, if there is clinging, then apply the practice. If there isn't, then apply the practice to that there isn't. In other words, realize there's no way to apprehend that there isn't grasping. And then you're back to another phenomena. And I think that that continual you know, being with and then rejecting or letting go of renunciation. That's what I'm finding challenging is that I'm, you know, maybe it'll become old hand someday or maybe it will, right now it feels very just like and again and again and again. There may be a dream of old hand. and then that should be treated the same way. But it's not a bad sign that there's new challenges coming.

[27:23]

So basically this path is one where It's usually the growth happens when we get new challenges, when we run into things which are a little bit different from what we did before, where the situation is, well, actually, you don't need to do this anymore. You can move on to another thing. And you say, no thanks, I'll keep doing what I'm already doing. Well, we're not doing that anymore. We're moving on. That's kind of hard, though. I don't know how to do that. Right. So... Part of compassion is the enthusiasm to move forward into new challenges which aren't the old thing. But one of the challenges is the old thing. Sometimes that's challenging, like it's challenging to give it up or it's challenging, but if you don't want to have the old thing, then the old thing comes and says, take care of me a little longer. the growth is, you know, it's okay to be doing what you already know how to do.

[28:27]

That can happen for a while. There are times like that. That's just the way it is sometimes. You're not particularly challenged. And that's kind of challenging because you know you're not growing. So the challenge of not growing. And then a challenge comes. I often tell the story of I was actually having kind of a challenging time for a couple of years at Zen Center. When I first came, I found the practice quite challenging. And I went to Suzuki Roshi and told him, I said, am I missing something? It doesn't seem to be hard right now. I hadn't had the experience of the practice not being hard. Generally speaking, I thought it was hard and challenging. I thought maybe I'm in denial. And he said, well, sometimes the practice may not be hard for you. And he took a piece of paper and he said, you know, kind of demonstrating the practice of paper folding, or origami.

[29:28]

Gami means paper, I think, and origami means like to fold it. So he took a piece of paper and he said, when we do origami, we fold the paper and then we press on it for a while before we fold it again. And then we fold it again. As you may know, if you take a piece of paper and you fold it and you just press it for a while, those fibers, they kind of like, they feel some stress maybe down there, and they're kind of like, let's shift over this way a little bit. The crease gets deeper. Time actually... it stresses the fibers to more settle into the fold. Does that make sense? Like, as you may know, if you take a piece of paper and fold it and leave it for decades, when you open it up, it just comes apart. Because the fibers have been bent over so long that they actually just finally give up by fatigue.

[30:30]

So, if you fold and fold and fold, sometimes you don't give the fibers enough to accept your fold. So I think he was saying to me, you've folded now, and you've been pressing it, but once it's folded and you're sitting on the press, it's not too hard. It doesn't take so much skill just to sit on the fold with the crease. And then the next day, people asked me to do something new. And I went and I said to them, the next fold has come. It was a big change in my life that I was asked to do, which was, you know, wonderful and challenging. Welcome. Yes? Would you like to come? Pardon? You're going to try? Oh, you're shy. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your bravery.

[31:34]

Would you like to use this? You don't have to. Welcome to this place. I want to say thank you. The times that I do come, your speeches are always so resonating to me and I always hit the nail on the head. Wonderful. So, um... Oh, sorry. Do you have a... This week about the disrespect, you were saying disrespectful. You were speaking about how if you want, a leader should be calm and collective towards people if they want people to work together.

[32:39]

And if they're disrespectful, they're gonna get the opposite. If a teacher is disrespectful to people? Yes. Does it get the opposite of what? No, I mean, you were just talking before in regards to if someone wants people to work together and they're stern and they're the leader, you're going to get the opposite of people. It'll happen. They'll feel disrespected. So for me, this week, this is why it's so interesting. is that there was a leader in a group environment that wasn't getting what she wanted. She was higher above and was disrespectful. When she was speaking to people in the group, she was disrespectful to everybody in the group, trying to do an iron fist, thinking that she would get the reaction that she got. and it backfired on her.

[33:40]

And instead of getting people to work together, everyone freaked out in the room. And I tried to be calm and collective in the middle of the storm and not point fingers and just see where the justice was. And then I removed myself from the situation and went back 24 hours later. So my question is, is once the blow-up happens and you see the disrespect and the injustice and it all calms down, how do you just, like, walk? I don't want to be pointing fingers or saying justice, I deserve justice, or that person deserves justice, but you still have to walk in the group. and that person knows they did something wrong, but you still have to walk among everybody.

[34:44]

That's the idea, walk among everybody. Yes. So if you see someone and you feel that they're being disrespectful to you or others, what I'm saying is, notice if you actually are apprehending this image of disrespect. And if you are, then that's your shortcoming. Wait, what's the shortcoming? If I see someone and I think they're being disrespectful, and I look at my... If I want to protect people from the harm of disrespect, disrespect is injustice, is a form of injustice. People... People do not, it's not just to disrespect any being. So if the appearance of injustice in the form of disrespect appears to me, then the practice is for me to look at myself and see if I am doing anything unjust or disrespectful.

[35:47]

Okay, and I did that. So then what's the, you don't want to do justice against it, you just want to, what happens then? I do want to do justice, right? I want to do justice. I want to realize justice. So when I see injustice, I want to realize justice. But the way to realize justice when I see injustice is to check to see if I'm involved in any injustice. If I want to protect people from disrespect and injustice, the way to protect them is to look at my shortcomings. I already see, in a sense, I have a dream up there and there are shortcomings already. People are pretty good at that. Almost everybody can see other people's injustice. But they don't necessarily notice their own. If you want to protect people from injustice wherever it is, However the dream, the horrible dream of injustice is, if you want to protect people, look at yourself.

[36:51]

If you can't find any injustice in yourself, that's justice. I mean, if you really can't find it. But usually you can. And the main injustice that almost everybody is involved in is that you grasp that picture of injustice that you think it actually exists. your mind, your view, your opinion, you think it's real. That's my injustice. If I then notice my injustice towards this thing, then I have a chance to see that there's no basis for my view. When I realize there's no basis for it, justice is realized in me and in my relationship to them. I no longer look down at anybody and now justice is realized. And I might be able to say something or do something based on that realization of justice.

[37:54]

And in order to find that injustice I have to be mindful and I have to remember to turn around and look at myself And I have to be calm. If you're not calm, you're not going to see, you're not going to both see the clinging and realize there's no basis. You have to be calm to see it. If you're shaking and it looks like you can grasp it, you probably won't see that you can't. So you have to be calm, courageous, careful with this appearance of injustice and generous. If you can be that way with it, you can see, oh, There is no basis for this grasping. Perfect wisdom is realized, justice is realized. And now it can be taught to the other people. And taught from a place of not grasping yourself as the teacher, and not grasping none of the students, and not grasping the lesson.

[38:59]

So the teacher, or this teacher, was being injustice. So I turned it on myself in the meeting so it would not affect the people around me. And she realized what she was doing and then stopped. So I took all of the blame that she was inflicting on other people and realized... That she was the one that, well, there was no blame. Really, everybody has blame. There's no blame. And so what I did was, instead of attacking the team, I then took all of the blame. And then when she realized what she was doing. Don't take all the blame. Well, I couldn't. Just accept responsibility. Mm-hmm. But not all the responsibility, just yours. Right. And then she realized her eyes were open and then she didn't know what to do. So she just said, everybody leave. And then the storm has passed and I spent 24 hours just being like, how can I go in there really calm and collective?

[40:08]

But now I'm going to walk in, and how do you walk into a group where you might not feel like their perceptions are... I just don't know. I'm just a little nervous. Finish your sentence. You might not feel that their perceptions are what? Well, then you're walking... Well, my perception is, am I welcome in the group? So that's kind of... Your perception is... That I might not be welcome, but that's my perception. You have a perception... Because now I'm nervous. ...that you might not be welcomed by the group. And you have a perception that you might be nervous. Yes, and then you just... That's my perception and my thinking, so I should just keep going. Well, you shouldn't... It would be good if you notice, oh, I think... I have the thought I might not be welcome, and I have the thought that I'm nervous. yeah that I won't be yeah or that I will I will be nervous when I get there I have that perception so right now right here those that those are things about me now those are not necessarily shortcomings it's not a shortcoming to think I might not be

[41:21]

welcome. It's not a shortcoming to think I might be welcome. It's not a shortcoming to think I might be nervous. It's not a shortcoming to think I might not be nervous. Those are just thoughts. The shortcoming is to grasp them as real. That's the shortcoming. That's what causes injustice. You can think whatever you want. If you don't grasp it, there's justice. You can think, negatively about others or about yourself. If you grasp it, injustice. You can think positively about others or yourself if you grasp it, injustice. If I think you're beautiful and I grasp that and say there's a basis for thinking that you're beautiful, that's injustice. You're beautiful Yes.

[42:24]

But you're not beautiful the way I see you as beautiful. And for me to think that your actual beauty is the basis upon which I can grasp your beauty, I'm denying that your real beauty is ungraspable. And it's kind of unjust to you. Everybody is beautiful, the Buddha sees, but the Buddha doesn't see any way to grasp anything. And Buddha sees that people look at a beautiful person, make a dream of the beautiful person, and grasp that as a substantial thing, and then they suffer. So you need to be kind to these opinions about what might happen, and notice if you're grasping them as real. And you may or may not be able to notice that there's no basis for it. If you can, perfect wisdom.

[43:25]

If you can't, then notice, oh, I couldn't. And then again, how about that? Then you just keep dancing. You keep what? Dancing in the stuff. You keep dancing, yeah. You keep dancing. Yeah, and keep dancing. Try again. That's what I did. Yeah, just keep dancing. And then at a certain point you get to a place where I'm grasping and there's no basis. And then there's wisdom. And then again, next time you might grasp and not get to the place of finding no basis. So then it's just pain. And then again you have a new challenge. Okay, now I can be kind to that pain and realize there's no basis to grasp that and then there's perfect wisdom. So the perfect wisdom can, you know, it comes up every moment or not. You're welcome. This teaching is for heroes. This is a heroic situation. And the thing that's to be heroic with is your amazing mind, which is constantly producing stories and there's probably some shortcoming.

[44:39]

And what's the shortcoming? You think you can grasp the story as real. But the story's not over. If you think so, you can still say, oh, there I am. There's the grasping. And what teaching says, there's no basis for this grasping. And it can drop. Yes? So, I would like to practice some of the paramitas. And it occurs to me today... Does everybody know what the paramitas are? The paramitas are giving... Ethical training, patience, enthusiasm, concentration, and perfect wisdom. And Barbara wants to practice with them. Actually, you recommended to me that I consider the paramitism in the context of my situation. And it occurs to me that generosity, the first one, is completely ungraspable. And that my first reaction to that is, oh no. How do I practice something that I cannot grasp, cannot grasp patiently?

[45:45]

That's sort of what Ken was saying. Yeah. In fact, the practice of giving, the practice of giving, it lacks a basis to be grasped. And when you start to open up to that, you go, oh no. How will I practice giving if there's no basis to grasp it? You can practice giving even though there's no basis to grasp it. You can practice cruelty even though there's no basis to grasp it. However, you won't practice cruelty if you realize there's no basis for it. And if you do realize there's no basis for giving, you will practice giving. But most people can't get to realize there's no basis to grasping giving unless you try giving and notice that you're grasping. And then as you practice it and you listen to the teachings, you notice, oh, there's no basis. Then you notice maybe at first you go, oh, no. I can't stand this. It's too hard to practice without a way of grasping the practice. But in fact, the just practice of giving is to practice giving without grasping it.

[46:51]

The unjust way of practicing giving is to grasp it like, I'm the giver. It's actually kind of unjust. I'm the giver here, or I'm the receiver. You're the giver. It's kind of bossy. Really, in the process of giving, there's no way to grasp receiver, giver, and gift. But that's kind of scary when you're not used to it. So then you go back to, okay, I'm the giver. Or I'm the receiver. Okay, anything but not being able to grasp who's in charge here. Do you think that if you, I don't know if this makes sense, if you really grasp that there was, oh, that doesn't make sense. If at some level you realize ungraspability of everything, which I hear you say is perfect wisdom, would you naturally, spontaneously live a life of ethical conduct and patience? Yes.

[47:56]

And if you so-called realize the ungraspability of everything, and you don't practice giving, ethics, and so on, your understanding is incorrect. Again, then you're grasping the dream. If you grasp the dream, grasp the dream of perfect wisdom, then you'll notice some fault in your giving, your ethics, your patience, and so on. Like, why can't these people understand this teaching? Why are there so many stupid people around me? Well, that's a sign that... I mean, you can think that and say, that was a funny joke. Probably shouldn't say it out loud, but... But you realize that was like, there's no basis whatsoever to think that people are whatever. I mean, there is a basis to think what you think, but there's no basis of grasping what you think. And when you realize that,

[48:56]

You naturally practice these perfections. And the way of getting to the place of realizing it is to practice these perfections together with this teaching. Yes? Well, a basis would be like something independent about it, something substantial. Our thinking is based on conditions, but there's no basis for grasping our thinking. Because our thinking is just a bunch of conditions. You can't actually get a hold of your opinions. There's no way to grasp them. There's no basis. But we do imagine that they can be grasped. That's false. They cannot be. Because they're not substantial things. They're conjurations of various conditions. Is that enough for today?

[50:02]

Thank you for your ungraspable...

[50:08]

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