There appears to be often a loss of stress and dynamic activity in family life. Like, you know, a family gets together for a meal, and some kids are balancing spoons on their nose, Some other kids these days are texting. And then some adults may ask the kids to stop texting. And then things evolve into such a situation that almost everybody leaves the table and goes, hides in their rooms if they have rooms. Have you heard about stories like that? So there's a wide variety of stories about families having lots of stress and difficulty getting along with each other.

[01:07]

And recently somebody sent me a, actually my daughter sent me an article about this, the challenge of, of, well you can see, excuse the expression, keeping a family together. Maria, what's the name of the man next to you? Would you mind coming around so I can see you and you can see me? There's plenty of space right here. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a Zabiton over there? Did you have a cushion you were sitting on? Will you bring it? Anyway, my daughter sent me an article about the question of how do families stay together and the reason why she sent me to it because the answer was the families that stay together often have strong family narratives.

[02:27]

They have family stories, strong ones. The reason why she sent it to me was because I was going to... I told her I thought it would be good for her boy, who is 13, and his memory is good, of course. I thought it would be a good time for him for now to take walks, perhaps, and for memories about his family. Brackets because I won't be around anymore closed brackets. She doesn't want me to say that to him Because she says if you say that to him He's mainly gonna be thinking about your dying and that will be harder for him to concentrate. So I'm not going to mention that Just Because a lot of times as you may have noticed when your parents and grandparents are gone you think you have questions, but you can't ask them and And a lot of the questions you have for them are questions about when they were young, and they can remember all that stuff.

[03:38]

Like, the stuff, if my grandparents were around, I could ask them questions about stuff that happened in the 19th century that they would vividly remember. And I neglected to ask my grandmother some questions I wish I had. Anyway, so I was going to, I told my daughter that I to tell him stories about his family. Not so much that his family is great, but just, you know, I thought it would be good. And then she sent me this article, and so I thought of that, I thought that was the reason why she sent it, but then I also thought, that's so much true. The Zen family, one of the reasons why the Zen people can stay together is because of stories, our family stories. Currently, the Zen family has quite a bit of stress. Have you noticed? You know, there's stress there among the people in the family.

[04:45]

They feel stressed with each other. It's hard. So why stay with those people? Why not go someplace else and be with people you don't have stress with? Well, part of the reason we can stay together is because we have these great stories. Now, can you hear me up there? A little louder would be good? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it might be slightly helpful if you went and sat behind them, if that would help you at all. Sit back there. You'd hear better if you sat right there. I'll try to talk louder. I gave, in a sense, I gave a Zen stories class at Green Dragon Zen Temple. It was about the Blue Cliff Record stories, stories from the Blue Cliff Record.

[05:51]

The first story is about Bodhidharma. The next story is about Jao. They are family members in our tradition. I told you. I had some problems offering the class. Okay? And remind me a little later, not too much later, just keep reminding me until I tell you what my problem was, because my problem relates to something that I'll mention quite soon. I'll just tell you what it refers to. It relates to the perfection of wisdom, which is something I think you all want me to have a problem with, right? It's one of my main problems, the perfection of wisdom, how to work with it, how to practice it, how to share it.

[06:56]

Okay. So, stories, Zen stories, keep the Zen family together even when there's stress. And also now, right now, there's lots of, what do you call it, there's lots of stress in the larger Zen family, you know, like people are very upset about what's going on at other Zen centers. Have you heard about that? You know, scandals are going on. People are like saying, I feel disgusted, you know. So, people are upset and need, people in our Zen Center need help dealing with what's going on at other Zen Centers. Because it's like in the New York Times and stuff. How can we use the stories not to deny the problems, but to stay together and work together, have a sangha, This is the stories. Okay? Strong stories.

[08:03]

Beautiful stories. One of the stories about Zen, which we often say as Zen or Chan in China, is a special transmission outside the scriptures, not depending on words, pointing to the human mind, recognizing its nature, becoming Buddha. That's a statement which has become, which actually some Zen people bring it up, but a lot of scholars also, people who study Zen, they also bring it up.

[09:12]

They say this is one of the main one of the main slogans, a special transmission outside the scriptures, not depending on words and phrases, a special transmission. This transmission directly points to the human mind. And in that process, the nature the mind is recognized and one becomes Buddha. And sometimes people even translate it with the brackets, Buddha nature is recognized and become Buddha. That's almost a story in itself. Another story is that that statement is originally attributed to an ancient practitioner named Nanjuan, an ancient Zen teacher named Nanjuan.

[10:23]

Some other people say that Bodhidharma said it. I think the last time we met here, I pointed out that I had hung on the wall this beautifully mounted, calligraphed version of the Maha Prajnaparamita Sutta, Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra, the great heart of perfect wisdom scripture. It's written in what's called Siddham characters, which is a special way of writing Sanskrit. So I put it up there and I also told people I'm going to be offering teachings on the perfection of wisdom, on the great perfection of wisdom, maha prajnaparamita.

[11:31]

But I also said then, and I'll say it again, If Zen is a special transmission outside the scriptures, how come Zen teachers sometimes offer scriptures? Well, they offer scriptures partly because of the stories in their tradition, is that the people who are taking care of the special transmission outside the scriptures often present scriptures. They read scriptures to their students, scriptures with their students within the special transmission. outside the scriptures, there is a lot of care of scriptures. In order to use the special transmission which doesn't rely on words, the only way to get to the special transmission which doesn't rely on words is by using words.

[12:50]

The special transmission which doesn't rely on words is you know, it's that gamma rays, it's going through, nothing stops it. It's passing through our bodies, this special transmission, this indestructible mind of enlightenment. There's no place it doesn't reach. But because we don't work with words properly, because we don't work with words properly, Because we don't, yeah, work with words properly, our words make us not notice the perfect wisdom which is passing through us. So we need words to bring us to see the nature of mind and realize Buddha. Part of the stories of our tradition is that if you look at the lives of many Zen teachers, they taught scriptures.

[14:12]

A lot of them taught the perfect wisdom scriptures. I'm just sort of like enacting the stories of our tradition by offering teachings on the perfection of wisdom. It's partly that. But again, the teachings on perfect wisdom are not necessarily being offered by Zen teachers. They're being offered by the whole universe. So one of our stories is that the sixth ancestor of Zen, before he was the sixth ancestor, when he was heading toward the sixth ancestor, he was selling wood. He was a wood salesman, a firewood salesman. And he was walking through a marketplace in Guangzhou, which used to be called Canton.

[15:15]

I went to Guangzhou with a bunch of co-practitioners one time and went to one of the six ancestors' temples there. Anyway, before he was a sixth ancestor, he was a layman. His name was Laman Luu. or workman Lou. And he was selling firewood. He walked by a fortune teller's stall. And the fortune teller was chanting the Vajra, the Vajra, cutting Vajra of perfect wisdom scripture. One might stop there and say, this doesn't say in the story, but how come a fortune teller is chanting a Mahayana scripture? This is just my idea that's popped up here.

[16:22]

I think the fortune teller was chanting the scripture because if you chant the scripture, the merit of chanting the scriptures makes you a really good fortune teller. ... what's called the Diamond Sutra or the Vajra Sutra. The Vajra that cuts through the language which distracts us from perfect wisdom. The perfect wisdom of the Buddhas which doesn't depend on words ... to us all the time, but which cannot be apprehended And that's why it's perfect wisdom. We need something to talk to, to engage our words so that we become to wisdom.

[17:24]

Somehow this sixth ancestor was tender enough So that when he heard section 10c of the Diamond Sutra, he woke up from his words. He received the transmission which didn't depend on words and woke up from the dream of his words, from the word dream. That's the story of our tradition. That's one of the stories of our tradition. So he says to the fortune teller, thank you. Thank you for reciting which has awoken me to this special transmission outside the scriptures." And then I think the fortune teller said, you know, if you want to hear more about this Vajra Sutra, this Diamond Sutra, there's a person called

[18:37]

Hongren. He's called the fifth ancestor of the Zen school. He lives up north. If you go up and visit him, he can tell you more about this sutra. This sutra, which sets up the special transmission outside the sutra, sets up the vajra mind of Buddha, which does not rely on words. the words that help us not rely on words. So the sixth ancestor said goodbye to his mom. I don't know how that worked out, but anyway, he said goodbye, and he started going north. And that's the story. He started going north to see the fifth ancestor. The story that follows is one of our big stories. It's one of the things that really is a good story.

[19:41]

It really does. It has been holding Zen together for about 1,400 years. That's one of the big ones. But I'm not going to finish it today. I'm not going to finish it now. But if you want me to, I'll finish it later. So tell me if you want to hear the rest, and I'll tell you. Further, I just want to show you an example of how our stories keep us together to study scriptures even though what the school's really about is a special transmission that doesn't depend on them. But still, it uses them. It uses them. Part of this, we have stories which tell us that we use the scriptures to realize the transmission that doesn't, that's outside them, or that's free of them. Isn't that something? It's not really. It's just words. This is what I'm saying, it's just words.

[20:42]

It's not something. And the fact that it's just words and not something, that's perfect wisdom. The fact that all these words lack any basis for apprehension, that's what we call . But we must use words, so I will continue. The Buddha used words. I wrote down someplace, I don't know, I can remember it, but I did write it down here someplace. What I wrote down was, I have long heard. And then there was something which I had long heard, which I was going to tell you about.

[21:50]

But when I said I have long heard, I thought that reminds me of another story. And I remembered what the other story was. So, I have long heard X, but I'm not going to tell you X right now. First, I'm going to tell you what the other thing was, which is that once upon a time there was another ancestor in our tradition. He was the guy who was an expert. This is funny to me. because I had long heard was something that this guy said. And this guy's name is Deshan. Deshan means virtue mountain, right? Deshan, virtue mountain. And he went to see a Zen teacher, and the Zen teacher's name was what? What was the Zen teacher's name?

[22:53]

Dragon Pond. And when he went to Dragon Pond, he said, I have long heard of Dragon Pond. That was the echo that I heard of Dushan saying, I have long heard of Dragon Pond. So I was thinking in talking to you, I was thinking of something I'd long heard that I wanted to tell you about, which I'll tell you in a little while. But I was interested in his echo. I have long heard. What was that? Oh, yeah, I remember. It was Dushan saying, I have long heard of Dragon Pond. Dushan, and then what I laughed at was that Dushan, before he came to say, before he said, I would...

[23:55]

I have long heard of Dragon Pond. Darshan heard on the Vajra Sutra. And he was carrying in his backpack the Vajra Sutra and lots of commentaries on it. Words about the words of the scriptures. He had a big load of them on his back. And he... going through the mountains on his way from where he used to live to destroy the Zen school. And what I'm laughing at is how synchronistic this whole thing is. It didn't even occur to me. This story fits. So here was this scholar, this Buddhist scholar, very smart guy, a very gifted human being who really was good with words, like we all are, really, but he was like above average.

[24:59]

He was, you know, he was a teacher of other monks, and his specialty was the Diamond Sutra, which turned the sixth ancestor on to Buddha's mind. And he heard, what did he hear? He heard about the Zen school. What did he hear about the Zen school? Guess. Guess what he heard about the Zen school? Yeah, exactly. He heard that the Zen people, he lived up in northern China, he heard that the Zen people said that there is a transmission outside the scriptures. He's a master of scripture and they say they got a transmission that's outside his scriptures. that doesn't rely on all his words, that directly points to the mind, the human mind, so that we can recognize its nature and become Buddha. Heresy, and it was a heresy that was becoming very popular.

[26:05]

The Zen school was thriving and he was upset about it because they said his business was more or less obsolete. He thought that was his understanding. It wasn't. He was totally not obsolete, as you will see. He was like, everything, this whole descent teaching was setting him up for enlightenment. So he's heading from his Buddha-dharma castle to destroy the Zen heathens, the Zen infidels, the heretics. And as he's going through a mountain pass, he's feeling a little hungry and he comes to a little pastry shop where they sell, you know, what they call in the south dimsum. and in the north they call it ten shin, which means dot heart, where they sell these nice little treats.

[27:16]

And so he said to me, I have these refreshments. It actually means dot heart. It means hit the spot, right? It means refresh yourself. So he said, may I have some refreshments? And the woman who was selling them said to him, what's on your back? He said, well, this has Diamond Sutra and commentaries on the Diamond Sutra. She said, wow. Well, this is a good opportunity for me to learn more about the Diamond Sutra. There's a part in the Sutra where it says, past minds cannot be apprehended. Future mind cannot be apprehended. Present mind cannot be apprehended. with what mind will you apprehend this refreshment? And he couldn't answer. Before she said that, she said, if you can answer, you don't get a refreshment.

[28:21]

If you can't, you're not going to get one. And he couldn't, and she said, you don't get a refreshment from me. If you want refreshments, I think you need to go a little further and go visit who? Dragon Pond. You should go visit Dragon Pond. Refreshment. Yay for old ladies and yay for young ladies. If you ever run into one. Yay to little baby girls who... I know this little baby girl who just learned that when you say ni hao ma to her, she says hao. And her grandmother is very happy. Ni hao ma means how are you feeling? And hao means good. Hao guai means how good.

[29:28]

Hao guai. Anyway, he heads off. He goes to see Dragon Pond. He goes in to the temple. He goes in the hall looking around for Dragon Pond. Dragon Pond is the name of the temple and it's also the name of the teacher. She said go to Dragon Pond. She meant go to the temple and visit the teacher. I guess he might have even known that Dragon Pond was one of these places who had the special transmission outside the scriptures. So maybe he was starting to feel some conflict between getting a refreshment and destroying this guy. I don't know. It doesn't say. Anyway, he goes into the hall and Dragon Pond sees him coming and hides behind a folding screen. We have some folding screens here, too, if you want to hide behind them. We can put them out later. So he comes into the room and he says, what does he say?

[30:31]

I've long heard of Dragon Pond. And now that I've arrived, there's no pond and no dragon. And then Dragon Pond steps out from behind the screen and says, thus you have arrived at Dragon Pond. Now, I would just say that this is the perfection of wisdom. I've long heard of the perfection of wisdom. And now that I've arrived at the perfection of wisdom, there's no perfection or wisdom or both or neither. Thus have we arrived at perfection of wisdom. So we have this teaching, this teaching which we really need to... It's nice that you sat this morning here, right?

[31:41]

Come sitting. Your bodies and minds are open so I can say this to you and you're not going to attach to anything I say, right? It's going to pass right through you like gamma rays. Gamma rays are nice. They don't cause damage like x-rays. X-rays don't actually just pass through. They cause a little bit of damage. Right? So, gamma rays are no problem. And same with the Dharma. It doesn't hurt you at all. As a matter of fact, it's what gives you life. It's what made life. That's why life is so precious. It's because Dharma's passing through it. Take care of life. That's another one of our stories. So when we're having trouble with each other, we try to remember that this person we're having trouble with over there, or the person over here that we're having trouble with, is very precious. We should take care of it. That's one of our stories. And we have a story about Dragon Pond and the old lady and Deshan to help us study this teaching, which is really a difficult teaching, and we might give up.

[32:56]

So we have these stories to hold us together so we can continue to study the perfection of wisdom. So you didn't remind me. It's okay that you didn't, but now I'll go back to the problem I had teaching the class about these Zen stories. Refreshing my study of the Prajnaparamita has encouraged me to offer another class on the Zen stories this fall at Green Gulch. And the encouragement came because the problem I had with the class was my sense that there was an attempt in discussing the stories, the words of the stories, there was an attempt to get at what the stories were about. To get at what the stories were about.

[34:02]

People kept trying to do that. And I just wasn't in the mood to be like some of my ancestors were. namely to tell these people to get out of the Green Gulch, to stop that. But I felt uncomfortable with that. But now I feel like, oh, I can help them stop that. I can help them realize that the words of these stories are not about anything. And to the extent that you can listen to these stories which hold our family together, Part of the reason why they're here is to hold a family together, a family of weirdos. A family of weirdos who deal with words as words and understand that the words don't refer to anything.

[35:04]

This is dealing with words as perfect wisdom. But our habit is, our compulsion, our addiction, our reflex is that the meaning of words comes from a referent. We think if we follow the word to its referent, we will find the meaning. This is incorrect. This is a mistake which we are reflexively addicted to. The wisdom is the meaning of the word comes from the way you use the word. The meaning of pain comes from the way you use the word pain. Sometimes you use the word pain this way, and it means, because you use it that way, it means this. And you use it this way, and it means that. Sometimes, you know, it's a happy story, the way you use it.

[36:08]

Sometimes it's an unhappy story. But the meaning is not because the pain refers to something. Pain comes from thinking that pain refers to something. So I'm encouraged to offer the class and see if we can discuss these stories and watch to see that we can discuss them and use the stories to keep us in the room where the difficult practice is going on of Prajnaparamita. The room where we realize these stories do not have objective basis. So this is the Prajnaparamita in 8,000 lines and the page, the pagination of the English translation is not the same as the pagination of the Sanskrit original.

[37:20]

So the translator, the wonderful translator Edward Kansa, he has the Sanskrit pagination in brackets inside the English translation. So on page 200 of the Sanskrit, the Buddha's student, Sabuti, who was also the Buddha's student in the Bhadra Sutra. He was also the Buddhist student who was speaking when he said, Section 10C. Are you following me? I went back to the Diamond Sutra. And the student there that the Buddha is talking to is Subhuti. Section 10C, the Buddha says to Subhuti,

[38:24]

Again, sort of synchronistically, the Buddha says that the bodhisattva should produce a mind that has no abode. So the name of this practice place comes from that section 10c, which is the section that woke up the sixth ancestor. The bodhisattva should produce a mind which has no abode, which doesn't abide in anything, which doesn't abide in colors or sounds or smells and so on. This is the mind of bodhisattva needs in the welfare of beings. Then later, Subuddhi becomes a continuing student, you know, continuing education guy with the Buddha. And now in the 8,000 lines, Subuddhi has become Buddha's teaching assistant. So now the Buddha actually tells Subuddhi, would you please teach the bodhisattvas about the perfection of wisdom?

[39:26]

Right? Remember I brought that up before? So in this sutra, Subodhi is now assistant teacher. So the Buddhist tells Subodhi, would you please teach the bodhisattvas about how to practice perfection of wisdom? And Subodhi says what? I don't see any bodhisattvas I don't see any perfection of wisdom, so how can I teach it to him?" And Buddha says, just so. Just so. This is how you teach the perfection of wisdom to Bodhisattvas. And we need stories to be able to stay together and tolerate such stories, such teachings. We need to stay together and watch each other and make sure that nobody is discouraged Because these teachings can be frightening. How are you doing, Maria?

[40:27]

You okay? I'm watching Maria's face. I want to make sure she's still here with me. How are you doing up there? Okay? We need to be in a family to see how people are doing. And we see somebody who says, well, then I don't have to practice ethics anymore. Whoa, wait a minute. We should take a break now from perfect wisdom teachings if you feel that way. Let's forget about it. I didn't mean it. Let's just set that aside now and tell you again. If there's no bodhisattvas, then I don't care about bodhisattvas. No, no, no. That's not what Subuddhi said. He said, I care about bodhisattvas, but I can't find any. That's how I teach the perfect wisdom. So part of the Zen traditions that we use stories of our tradition in order to tolerate our tradition. Because our tradition deals with the difficulties of family life, deals with the difficulties of living together, but also dealing with the difficulties of living together is the path.

[41:40]

As somebody said, practicing alone is difficult. And practicing together is difficult too. But practicing alone will not lead you to perfect wisdom. But practicing together will. But the difficulty of this way is the difficulty of living together. But it also has a way for us to catch each other and support each other if we get distracted from the teaching which we are Yes? When I say what? Yeah. Tolerate and being open-hearted, yeah. You have to tolerate in order to open your heart. If pain comes and you don't tolerate it, it tends to tense up. Yeah.

[42:43]

Tolerate, the main ingredient of tolerate is be present. So this teaching is very elusive. This teaching is elusive and it says you can't grasp this teaching. That's the teaching. You can't grasp that either. That's just words. This teaching is kind of, for some people, it's kind of scary because we have to take care of each other and make sure we aren't losing the integrity of our personality while we're studying this. We have to be able to like come on time to the sitting, and when the period's over, to get up and do walking meditation with the other people. And then when walking meditation's over, it's not to control the people, but just to check to see, is the person drifting off from being connected to the family program? But, you know, let's say, even great masters were able to, like, sit down and get up when the bell rings.

[43:47]

You know? So it also says, which I read last time, when you hear this teaching and you don't become afraid, that's the perfection of wisdom. gets to you and you can tolerate the ungraspability of all phenomena, including this teaching, and you're not afraid, then perfection of wisdom is working. But it's hard to tolerate sometimes, the elusiveness of it, because we're, just like it's hard to tolerate our addictions. Our addictions, we use them to tolerate, so to set them aside, it's hard to find a new way to tolerate our life. Actually, to tolerate words. Patience is to be in the present with what's happening, particularly with something uncomfortable, like fear. Like, ungraspability can be quite uncomfortable.

[44:52]

To be present with the discomfort is necessary, but also generosity. You need to welcome the teaching and welcome it. There's another section right nearby here, which I think is called the effects. Yeah, the next section after the section I'm going to read to you, the section I'm reading to you is the perfection of wisdom is perfectly pure. That's the next section I was going to share. But the next section is called the effects of perfect wisdom. And I'll just mention that now in terms of toleration. And it says that Whenever there's something precious, there's often some kind of aggression, turbulence around it, like diamonds, gold, like the gold we had in the hills here a while ago. There was a lot of aggression around that gold.

[45:54]

Maybe you heard about it. Now there's diamond mines, there's a lot of aggression around there. Lots of aggression around that. Natural gas. You see the aggression around those things? They're precious to human beings. And then people do aggressive things to the earth. They dig it up. They pollute it in order to get this thing they think is precious. They dig in the ground. Right? They fight with each other while they're digging. Because that's what happens around precious things. The same with the perfection of wisdom. And it's much more precious than anything, like any diamond. It brings people what they think diamonds will bring. So it's part of the situation that there's turbulence and fear and greed and stuff. It all comes up around the perfection of wisdom. So we need to be able to tolerate all that so we can be tender and receive it. That's the next section. The section I wanted to read you was that the Buddha says to Subuddhi,

[46:59]

To call it the perfection of wisdom, no, excuse me, the Buddha says to the Buddha, to call it the perfection of wisdom, O Bhagavat, O blessed one, is merely giving it a name. And what that name corresponds to. What name? The perfection of wisdom. What that name corresponds to cannot be got at. One speaks of wisdom with reference to a merely nominal entity. Even this perfection of wisdom cannot be found or got at. So, excuse me, it is insofar, insofar as it, the perfection of wisdom, is a word, so it is, so far, the perfection of wisdom.

[48:08]

Insofar as it, the perfection of wisdom, is a word, insofar is it the perfection of wisdom. Insofar as the perfection of wisdom is a word, insofar is it the perfection of wisdom. As soon as the perfection of wisdom is more than a word, it's not the perfection of wisdom. And I don't... Because it cannot be God. In any case, even if you don't say perfection of wisdom, that doesn't mean that then you can get a hold of it. It cannot be apprehended and it is the way everything is. I hope that we can study these wonderful stories and use the words to realize the special transmission which doesn't depend on the words of the stories.

[49:11]

And when we try, when we're using the stories and we start to reach for what they are connected to, rather than watch how the stories work, that we allow ourselves to be brought back to the story whose object cannot be apprehended. So now I feel encouraged to study these stories again. be happy to hear and others will be not happy to hear that's another story okay well uh fortunately uh this talk started at 11 and it's still 11 so we have plenty of time if there's anything you want to bring up I had a comment. The word that just keeps coming through me is magic. This is a magical process.

[50:15]

It's a magical process, and to the extent that the word process is just a word, it's a magical process. If you think magical process refers to something, that's quite normal, and it's not magical. is just habitual. And as you know, the word magic starts with the same letter. And also, as you know, the heart sutra, the first word in the heart sutra is look, you know, or listen, observe. In Chinese, guan, observe. Observe what? Listen to what? Look at what? Observe the cries of the world.

[51:16]

Observe the cries of the world. Observing the cries of all sentient beings assembles an ocean of virtue. And with that ocean of virtue, We can practice perfect wisdom, but the basis of this practice is observing all this suffering, to observe the pain and suffering of the world, and to realize the teaching that the suffering of the world, when it exists, is nothing more than a word. to realize that and to not think that there's something that that word refers to that can liberate beings from that word, that suffering, that exists. So this is a possibility. And the Buddhist said, the historical Buddhist said, some people have been successful at the practice. And we ourselves

[52:21]

in a state of tenderness. We need to be generous and ethically diligent and respectful of all life and patient with all pains in order to be able to deal with the word pain and the word misery. We need to deal with these words in such a way that we realize perfection of wisdom with these words, with these apparently existing things. which are true because the language works, but they're not true because they refer to something. They're true because they have meaning. This pain has meaning because of the way we use our language. That is meaningful and true, but it's not true that the word refers to something. That's the mistake. If we come back to that,

[53:24]

These words, these conventional sufferings are opportunities for perfect wisdom. Yes, Karen, and then Houma. I once met an old Tibetan Lama who had been in a Chinese prison for 30 years, and he was released, and things happened. He was in that prison, and his body was kind of... And he would talk about that he was grateful to the Chinese because they taught him to extend his compassion. But he didn't talk about it in terms of that things didn't happen to him. You know, things happened to him. He didn't talk about this in terms of wisdom. He talked about it in terms of compassion. Words were about compassion, but the wisdom might have been there. It wasn't that things weren't happening, it's just that he maybe understood that the things that were happening, when they came to be existent, that they were merely words.

[54:38]

He may have understood that. Understanding that, he could practice compassion in situations that he couldn't previously practice compassion. So all of us, I think, are practicing compassion somewhat. And I think most of us, as far as I know, maybe all of us, would like compassion in a great way. But without wisdom, we sometimes draw a line and say, not in this case, because this suffering really does have an object. And then we can't practice compassion. I mean, we can, yeah, we sometimes will not practice compassion. So I'm confused. It seemed like something happened, and whether something happened to him, and whether we call it torture, or we call it... Yes.

[55:41]

Something still happened. Well, I'm not saying that something's not happening. I'm just saying that when things happen, they cannot happen apart from our giving words to them. That's the only way they can happen. That's the first statement. It's not to say they're not happening. The way they happen, the meaning of suffering, the way it has meaning, is the way we think about it, the way we talk about it. And that's how things happen. That's how they happen. They do happen. And that's the way they happen. And the meaning of them is how the words work with each other, the way we use them. That's what some people, they tell this story and then they have this meaning. Some people tell another story and they have another meaning. And the way the meaning comes is by the way they use the words. So if you follow the way that you're using the words when something... This is the path to wisdom.

[56:42]

If you think that the words are referring to something, this is our normal ignorance. So if you think being in prison refers to something other than the story of being in prison, which is normal, then that will make it more difficult for you to... You can still practice compassion somewhat, you can still be patient, with the pain of thinking that being in prison or being bent and tortured, you can still be kind to that by practicing generosity and ethics and patience. But if you think what's happening refers to something other than the way you're thinking about it, then you might actually stop being compassionate because it's so undermining to be deluded. But you can be compassionate even while you're deluded. But, you know, it's impure. You think that you think something other than birds.

[57:45]

You think that the words are not just words, that they refer to something. This is a normal problem. Right, I think there's an event and then I call it a name. But you're saying... Yeah, exactly. You think there's an event and you call it a name. But things are not necessarily, you know, something that arises and ceases. Things are actually maybe ungraspable. So then under the ungraspableness we put a word, and then it's like we can grasp it. And that's okay, because the grasping of the word that we put on something can guide us to the ungraspable. Matter of fact, we need to use words about the ungraspable. We need to use words about perfect wisdom to get to perfect wisdom. But perfect wisdom is not grasped by the words. We need to use words about suffering in order to get to perfect wisdom. To get to the lack of a basis in the suffering for apprehension, that's the perfect wisdom in the suffering.

[58:47]

We don't get it there all the time, but because we're using words in other ways, and what's the way we usually use them? We usually use them like, here's the words, and this is how they refer to something. That distracts us from the process where the meaning is, and adds this delusion into it, which doesn't destroy and stop compassion entirely, but it undermines it. Does that make more sense to you now? Just a second. Next is Homa. I answered your question? Okay, yes. Yes. Is someone who's calling? Yes. Yes, Elena. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the event being ungrasped? Yes. Well, I said that all phenomena lack a basis for grasping.

[60:02]

The only way we can grasp things is by putting a word on them and then we grasp the image or the word. Things themselves dependently co-arise. Everything depends on causes and conditions. Things don't depend on themselves to exist. They depend on causes to exist. If you try to grasp something, if you look deeply, you realize you never get the thing. All you can get is the causes and conditions of the thing. So if you look deeply, you would be able to see that nothing can be found. And the reason it can't be found is that everything is the result of causes and conditions. Everything is the result of itself. That was an elaboration which I just gave you, Elena. Okay? The causes and effects of that event originated That's right.

[61:06]

That's right, it's inconceivable. The actual causes and conditions of any event are inconceivable. And so what we need to do is we need to be able to tolerate inconceivability. Because the ultimate truth is inconceivable. So perfect wisdom can look at the inconceivable and tolerate it. And we get to tolerate the inconceivable by using the conceivable. By using words which are conceivable. By using conventional truth, which is expressional, we can go to what is inexpressible. Which is actually the way things are. Which is actually how our life is. Actually the way our life is, is perfect wisdom. But we need training in order to tolerate perfect wisdom, which means that we tolerate inconceivability, we tolerate inexpressibility, but the way to get there is through conceivability and inexpressibility.

[62:17]

which we're doing in this situation. We're using expression in the service of all beings, and we're trying to develop perfect wisdom in service of all beings. And can they be simultaneous? Can what be simultaneous? Can conceivable and inconceivable be simultaneous? They always are simultaneous. And they're not the slightest bit of difference between them. From the point of view of the inconceivable, there's not the slightest bit of difference between perfect wisdom and ignorance. There's not the slightest bit of difference between birth and death and all its miseries and the world of nirvana. They're not the slightest bit different. And they also both only exist. Samsara only exists by giving it a name. And the same with Nirvana. It only exists by giving it a name. But the Buddha doesn't teach that they exist.

[63:21]

The Buddha just says, this is how they do exist. And then when you see them existing, understand they exist because of, not apart from, giving them a name. In other words, they don't have another existence over here apart from the existence they have by giving them a name. They don't have another existence sitting over there saying, well, you're talking about me, but I'm over here. There's not a thing over there. The thing that you're creating is because of the words. What happens if they appear separate? What happens if they appear separate? That you gave a word ...relationship, which is called separation. I don't believe that, because sometimes I use the word, still I don't feel the separation, and sometimes I use the word and I feel the separation. Did you say you don't feel the word and you feel separation?

[64:22]

No, I say sometimes even I use the word, I still don't feel the separation. I don't feel the separation between the word. Well, I'm not saying every time you use a word, you get the thing that the word can make. I don't say that. Yeah, I know. My question is, what is it that sometimes it's... What is it? What is that? That's called the way you use the word. How you put it. How you put it. So the path, the wisdom is to watch how you put it. To watch how you use the word. Watch how you use the word. Watch how she uses the word. Watch that. It's the way you use it where the meaning is. And switching to look for the meaning in that way will take you to wisdom. But looking, try to follow the word to its object will take you away from wisdom. Why, you know, if you want to know why did I choose this word or why did this word work this way this time and that, don't look for the object over there. The reason is because of the way you used it. Like I mentioned the other night, people said, this is a conversion, why do we have seven-day sesshins?

[65:29]

And he said, because we go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. We have these sesshins, they are meaningful because of the way we use words. Just a second, somebody over there? No? No? Yes? I was thinking about the aggression around precious things. Yeah. And when we were talking, I was thinking, well, maybe the Zen phrase, when presented with the jewel, who will not raise her sword? Yeah, right. And I was kind of puzzled about that. Maybe there's aggression around precious things, even precious teaching, because there's separating it out.

[66:32]

And this thing is more precious than that. You're not saying everything's precious. Well, even if you say everything, I think that refers to something. You'll raise your sword. Perfect wisdom. Perfect wisdom is the most precious thing. All these sutras start out, homage to the perfection of wisdom, the lovely, the blessed, the holy. And the perfection of wisdom is worthless. Yes, Barbara? I wanted to mention chanting. It seems like perhaps a special piece of words. In particular, ,, but the words don't actually mean anything. They evoke a certain devotion or expression of feeling, but those are words that really don't mean anything. Maybe. But the existence of the Daishandarani for you, I'm saying, it doesn't exist for you aside from words.

[67:40]

Although you say the words of Daishandarani don't make any sense to you, don't have meaning for you, there is a meaning of you chanting the Daishandarani. That's a meaningful thing that exists in your life. And you just told us, you have this story that you chant the Daishandarani. The existence of you There's no existence of that process of chanting that aside from the words you gave to that process. Now, the path of wisdom is to watch how this thing called chanting the Daishanarani occurred. And so the Daishanarani is an opportunity for you to practice. But maybe the meaning is not in the words of the Daishon Rani. The meaning is in the words, we're chanting the Daishon Rani. Or the words, that these words don't have meaning for me. That's a meaningful statement. I feel it was, I understood what you're saying. And you didn't use your way of talking.

[68:41]

But that doesn't refer to anything. And that's the hard part, is that this me chanting the Daishi Nirani doesn't have an object or a referent. That's the part that we have trouble learning. I'm wondering, because it's always done at a certain time, that people are even thinking, I'm chanting the Daish and Dharani. It's just, I'm always wondering, it's like words bypassing words. That's what it feels like. I mean, I love to chant. That's what it feels like. That's to use words to bypass, not to bypass words, not to bypass them, to use them to realize what is wordless, to realize what doesn't depend on them. But we need to use them to realize. So somebody can be Chani and Daishi and Dharani, understanding it. They're using these words, and it's possible to use these words in such a way as to understand the special transmission which doesn't depend on these words or any words.

[69:50]

And if we're fighting about what words to use to realize this, it's probably going to be difficult, but not impossible. Wisdom with those words. We should be generous towards this. Yes? I see Amanda, but there was somebody else. No? Yes? So, this addiction, this compulsion that we have... To make sense of things. To make sense of them. By naming them. And naming them. Yeah. So in our sitting practice, when we see that, the best thing to do is... Well, practice generosity with it. Be ethical with it. Don't try to blame the people who set the schedule and see that they're creeps and torturers. for being better than the people around you or worse, and so on. Practice the precepts with this situation of sitting and be patient. This sets a stage for you now to like think, how does this thing exist?

[70:57]

I heard it exists only, not totally. It has no existence separate from the word sitting or pain or posture. Pain has no existence separate from the naming of it. The chapter sort of sets the stage. And that's why I say, you know, like again, Suzuki Rishi said, Zazen, our sitting together, especially for a long time, is a great tenderizer. If you just sit there and for a while we fight it maybe. We fight for one day or two days and three days we start to fight a little less and four days we're not fighting much at all and the fifth day we're not fighting anymore. The discomfort or the boringness or the waste of my life or the withdrawal from technologies, it's just the same. But I'm not fighting it anymore. I'm tender. And now I can accept that I have to get up and leave the session.

[71:59]

But also, I can also notice that the body doesn't exist apart from the word body. Perfect wisdom can arise, but I have to be tender with these other hassles to be able to be open to this teaching. And so we're chanting the Heart Sutra every day. We're having lectures on the Heart Sutra. We're being told, don't try to grasp these lectures about the Heart Sutra. But we still think there's something besides the words of the Heart Sutra to grasp as the meaning of the Heart Sutra. But the meaning of the Heart Sutra is not in the words. It's in how the words are being used. That's where the meaning is. Not in the words and not separate from the words. So a lot of people can say, I believe the meaning is not in the words, but they think it's someplace else. And like, you know, Dogen says, the is like to perform your daily life.

[73:03]

You know, like to have lunch, sit, walk, talk, do these things, as the Buddha way and understand that there's not another Buddha way besides the talk about the Buddha way that you're involved with. The Buddha way that you're living is the Buddha way that exists not apart from the words Buddha way, sitting, and so on. But it's very hard for people to understand and to be convinced that that's so. And again, some of Dogi's greatest students could not accept They didn't believe their great teacher. They thought that performing the Buddha way, performing their daily tasks of Buddhist practice, of monastic life, they thought they did it. But they thought there was another Buddha way, a shadow Buddha way that was the real Buddha way, that was the big Buddha way.

[74:08]

But the big Buddha way is not separate. And the same would apply to that, that there's no Buddha way separate from this big Buddha way. So when you're sitting, you may notice the mind going and thinking there's something more to Buddhism besides you sitting here with your hands on your knees, shaking your head and blinking your eyes. There's some other Buddhism than that. Hmm? Hmm? Norma. Norma? Is your name Norma? Yes. Okay. So I'm going to relate to Caroline in relation to the, I don't even quite have a phrase, but preciousness and the aggression around preciousness. And so when it comes to something like fracking. Yeah, fracking and also raping.

[75:08]

Yeah, okay. Fracking and raping. So it's precious, regression around something precious. And you can make it what you want. I even hold it, is what I'm hearing. If you feel like it's wrong, because that's the meaning you make when you have to hold it, then you do something about it, or you don't do something about it. Well, you will do something about it. We always do something about it. The question is, will you be acting from... Or will you be acting from thinking that the word wrong refers to something? If you think something's wrong, you can just say, you know, you can use your words. As they say now, when kids are screaming, we say, use your words. So you see violence and you scream maybe, but also maybe you should use some words like, not very clear. It might get people's attention, but then after you get their attention, you can just say, would you please stop? But is that stop coming from wisdom?

[76:09]

Or is it coming from belief that your sense of wrong refers to some real thing called wrong? And most people, when they use a word, they reject it from the word and think the word refers to something. And then their compassionate activity is somewhat undermined. But if you can say, I think that's wrong, I want you to stop. And you can say it compassionately, that's good. But the compassion could look very, extremely intense. And people might not think it was compassionate, but that wouldn't be the point. The point is it's coming from wisdom. And you say, please stop. Or just stop. I need you to stop. And if you have wisdom, you can keep saying that forever. For the welfare. If you think that it refers to something, you're draining yourself by that understanding. And you will eventually, like, you know, disable yourself from doing the work of opposing things that you think are evil.

[77:13]

But it's a service to use your words, to give your words as, I think this is evil, I want you to do a service that we should perform. But to be performed in the best way, it needs to be accompanied by perfect wisdom. And perfect wisdom understands that there's no basis for grasping, please stop harming him. I can say, please stop harming him more wholeheartedly if I don't grasp that there's a basis to me saying that. I just, it's just like, it's called, it's called the lion's roar. That's the Buddha's lion's roar. People will listen. Because it's not saying that they're sick, but from the roar. And it doesn't tire the lion to roar it. But if you roar and you think that you're roaring about something that refers to something, pretty soon you'll sound like a mouse. Because it drains you to roar when you think you've got the truth.

[78:19]

Because it's not just what you think. It refers to something. That's what we're being asked to give up. But these go together. In order to give it up, you need to practice compassion a lot. Because you can't tolerate that truth of giving up. You can't tolerate give up that your words have reference unless you practice compassion. And then when you practice compassion and give up that your words refer to something, then your compassion just really blossoms. So you need compassion to get to perfect wisdom, and when you get there, then all your compassion practices are unhindered of thinking that your words have references and that your words are talking about things that can be grasped. Okay? Bodhisattvas are social workers. They work with society. They work with people. They get in there and they can do it because they know there's no beings to work with.

[79:22]

They vow to work with all beings, all sufferings, to all beings. They vow that. But they also have to remember that there are no beings to help. You can't get a hold of any beings. They need that in order to do this amazing work. Norma? Yes. So what I'm saying is that we are here It does seem that way. So then, the bodies that we're here with, and the teachings that you are sharing with us, we are coming to get close to them to learn knowledge. In between that is what I've been faced with, between us and the knowledge, there's this kind of free space, almost like floating, where there's no attachment, but we still stay connected to the teachings, and we still act appropriately, and we still, you know, try to be compassionate and practice every day.

[80:42]

Yeah, and with the conventional things, you know, which words create for us, we keep taking care of the conventional truth. Because if you don't take care of the conventional truth, the ultimate truth is not appropriate. And once you realize the ultimate truth, it isn't that you stop taking care of the conventional truth. It's just that you take care of it better. Yes? I'm just wondering how to understand modern science. How to understand modern science? You're wondering about that? Well, because, you know, the scientists who send the rockets to the moon or Mars or these other amazing things, like scientists who create nanotechnology that can be used for non-invasive surgery, they're thinking that performance is an objective reference.

[81:44]

Some of them do. Maybe most of them think that. Okay? I would agree. But the ones who don't are more effective, I would say. Some of them do not think that, what you just said. Some scientists have wisdom and some don't. And the ones that do have wisdom are the ones who do not think that what appears for them has an objective reference. The same with great artists. They create these things, and the greatness of their art is when they understand the art is not referring to something. And people who look at the art, who are still addicted to thinking that this image refers to something, the artist is conveying to them in some way, to the extent that they have wisdom, they're conveying the message, this thing doesn't refer to anything.

[82:49]

And it's a pleasant way sometimes for the people to open to that these words, these images, this is what I think the greatest art is doing. This is what the greatest music is doing. It's being offered and people give it a name and then it exists for them. But there's a message inside which is saying, like the sutras, there's a message inside the words which is saying, these words do not mean anything. Perfect wisdom is being given to you. Thank you very much for the perfect wisdom. And by the way, what I just gave you, has no way of being gotten at. The music does that too. It says, here's this thing, please accept it. You say, thank you. And then the music says, by the way, you can't get at this music. And you say, okay, I can deal with that because you have just done this great, you've made my body and mind able to accept that I can't get at this music.

[83:52]

So the music kind of like, it conveys to us the ability to accept what may not be grasped. And some scientists are doing that too. They're not all deluded in that way of thinking that what they're doing has an objective reference. Even scientists can be wise. etc. Even X can be wise, if X will do this practice. But this practice is difficult. It's called deep. Deep means difficult. They both start with the same letter. When you're studying something deep, don't be discouraged. That also starts with the same letter. Deep, don't be, don't delve into being discouraged. Okay?

[84:55]

It's normal that it's difficult. I'm sorry, I just had a thought. You're sorry? What are you sorry about? Because I had a weird, I had a, this thought had never occurred to me, so it's like I have to ask. And I know it's making time, but I'm sorry. Hey, is it all right if she asks another question? Is that okay? You know, my God, it's getting close to 12. You just said what was triggered in me was... Stillness is ungraspable. When things start to move, that's when I see myself want to grasp. So there's this movement, like when you were talking about the art.

[85:57]

It's not the picture, it's the feeling of the movement of the art which makes us to make this ungraspable to graspable. Yeah, so maybe that's part of the art, is for the artist to show us at what point you're not grasping anymore. So partly the artist sort of goes like, okay, now you're able to not grasp, now I do this, and then you start to notice, oh, now there's the grasping. So part of the art, part of the teaching is to offer you something so you can taste not grasping, and then to offer you something where you notice, oh, here comes the grasping again. So that's part of the process, is to reveal the more subtle forms of grasping after maybe getting a taste of, wow, we got a little break from grasping there, how nice. And then the teacher says, it's like that story, you know, Rumpelstiltskin, you know that story? It's a... with Rumpelstiltskin.

[87:01]

Well, anyway. This girl was supposed to spin straw into gold. you know, which is difficult. But anyway, she cried and cried and cried and a guy came, appeared, popped out and said, I'll help you. And so he helped her spin straw into gold. And then the person who was forcing her to do it, the king of the country said, that's very good. Well, now you can spin twice as much straw into gold. And The little guy appeared again and helped her. But then, the first time he helped her, he just gave it as a gift. Yeah, I'll spin this room of straw into gold. But the second time, his greed came out. He said, well, I'll do this one into gold too, but you have to give me something.

[88:04]

So sometimes you can be generous, you think you're not trying to get anything, and then the thing gets more precious. You say, oh, my God, this is too good to not pass up on. I'm going to get this one. This thing comes by. Nice to meet you. Bye-bye. That's nice. Or, hello, this is terrible. Okay, okay. That's not good, but I'm not going to attach to it. But when something else comes in, a more subtle form of grasping comes up. So I think you're noticing. that sometimes you're able to practice the teaching of things that are ungraspable. And stillness is maybe sometimes a really nice opportunity to say, wow, nothing can be grasped, and I'm okay with that. Oh, yeah? Okay, well, how about here? How about this? Oh, no. That's real.

[89:05]

So I'm going back to grasping, if you're going to do that. We reach our limit of how much we understand, and we start grasping again. But that's not the end of the story. Okay, we get more chances. And the idea is eventually, through many, many cases of failing at remembering the teaching, we get consistent. It takes an incalculable number of trials to get to that point. And that's normal. That's normal for this practice. To transform a being into what it can become, it's a long process of training. Enough for now? Enough, Simon? May our intention equally extend to every being and place, with the true man's love, with his way.

[90:22]

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