expression you care to offer. Yes, Oscar. I was wondering about your comment about moral universe earlier today. It does seem like, and I wonder if you could say a little more about that, what you said, morality as the, it's associated with intention, but it also has connotation of adhering to the precepts. What do you mean by moral universe? I mean the realm in which intentions have consequence, and part of the consequence is to create worlds.

[01:04]

And I'm not saying everything in the universe necessarily is the results of moral behavior. And we say moral behavior, we could say, you know, that in some sense immoral behavior is in the realm of morals. Immorality is also in the realm of morality. I see. I think sometimes maybe people say that morality has to do with what is good and what is harmful, what is right and what is wrong, what is beneficial and what is unbeneficial. Is that how you are using the term? I think I'm using it more in terms of the pivot where the good or the evil turns is on intention, is on mental activity.

[02:08]

And then mental activity can be skillful, unskillful or indeterminate. But there is consequences of this activity, this karma. And the question of which is good or harmful is a different question than the issue of there being consequences. No, the consequences are what in some sense determine the goodness of an intention. So if I intend to help you but I harm you, then that makes my intention different than if it helped you. But again, if I would know that it harmed you, if that was a reality to me,

[03:19]

I would also, the reality of the harm, I'm saying that that's not the end of the story of that harm. That harm could, as I said earlier, that harm could manifest in unknown ways in the future. And also, that harm doesn't totally determine backwards what I did. So what happens in the future, in terms of your intentions, in a backward way determines the quality of your intention. I missed that. If you wish to do something good but it seems that the consequence is harmful,

[04:21]

or if you could know the consequence is harmful, then that would change the quality of your good intention, since you were hoping that it would be helpful but it wasn't. So then in the future, the future would change the past. By harm arising in relationship to that action, you might feel that the action which you thought was good was not so good. It still wasn't that you wanted to hurt the person. It doesn't change that way. It's just that your wish to help them didn't actually seem to lead to them being helped, as far as you can see. So then you feel differently about what you did. But it's also possible to look at what you did and feel bad about it

[05:26]

and take care of it in the present in such a way that the past changes. But past does change. The karma of the past. Well, what you used to think 1985 was like is not what you think 1985 is like now. 1985 isn't the same 1985 that it was in 1986. Oh, how you view... Are you saying how you view 1985 now? Yeah. From the present moment. Yeah. So that's my current 1985. I see. It's not the same 1985 that I had in 1986 and 1987. So is there some other 1985 that's staying the same?

[06:27]

I can't find that one. So, because of this interdependence, things are not substantial, and yet it's possible to know reality. Yes. You spoke earlier about the wondrous flowering Dharma and how it's moving across the universe. And as we all age, in particular for me as my father gets older and older, and deteriorates, it's hard to see that it's blossoming. It's hard to feel that it's blossoming. It's part of the Dharma, and I know it's part of old age, sickness and death. But it's still hard to feel that as a blossoming or an opening experience.

[07:38]

Yeah. That's one of the things about old age, sickness and death, is that it's hard to see them as, for example, birth. Even though, in a way, a newborn is quite similar to an old person. They're both very fragile and vulnerable, easily hurt. One is more, they aren't hurt in the same ways, but they're both quite vulnerable. But it's hard to see the birth, sometimes it's hard to see birth in an old person. And sometimes it's hard to see death in a little baby. But in the baby, maybe it's easier to see the blossoming universe in the baby.

[08:44]

Perhaps. So we say, you know, depending on feeling, there's craving. Depending on craving, there's clinging. Depending on clinging, there's existence. Depending on existence, there's birth. But you could just go right from there. You could just say, depending on existence, there's birth. And then you could just go right into misery, lamentation and so on. Not mention old age, sickness and death. But, if you skip birth, it doesn't work so well to go to old age, sickness and death. But you can skip the old age, sickness and death and have misery right with birth. You can also have birth and death.

[09:52]

No old age, just birth and then death. That can happen too. And then misery, lamentation, grief and sorrow and despair around the death of a newborn. So, when you have a newborn, you can see the blossoming, but when the death comes, it's hard to see the blossoming. So, it is hard, but the universe, according to the Lotus Sutra, is like a flower. So, death is like a flower. But it's hard to see.

[10:54]

Does it lead to rebirth? It can. And if you can see death as a blossoming, then you might be able to see rebirth as a blossoming. Or just birth as a blossoming. And karma as a blossoming. And ignorance as a blossoming. Well, one of the nicknames for nirvana is no birth, no death. How can we sustain the truth of our reality? The truth of no birth and no death?

[12:02]

Yes. How can we sustain that? Well, I don't know about sustaining it, but the truth of no birth, no death, I would say comes when you study birth and death. The proposal is, by thoroughly studying birth and death, you realize nirvana. You realize no birth, no death. Or if you thoroughly study the Self, you realize nirvana. You realize no birth, no death. Yes. I have no problem realizing it. My problem is, as I realize it, then I forget it. I mean, right in the moment after realization, it's gone. It just goes. Well, yes. And the more you can let go of it, the better. I don't even let go of it. It just goes on its own.

[13:07]

Yes. It's good for you to let go of the stuff that's going. Participate in the things that are going. Make them gifts. Otherwise, are you not cooperating with their going? I don't even do anything. It just does it of its own. I don't see myself any part of it. I don't see myself. Yes. So I recommend that you see yourself while stuff is going. Check out what you're doing when things are going. You are responsible. You say things go on by themselves, but things don't go by themselves because they're going. If you see something going, you're contributing to its going. If you see somebody walking down the street, you're responsible for them to some extent. I totally see myself responsible for seeing it because I'm very kind of present with it.

[14:13]

But I somehow... I cannot take responsibility. I cannot do it. You cannot accept responsibility for something? For what it's going. What goes. I don't... If somebody walks away, can't you accept responsibility for them walking away? No. They're just going. Well, so anyway, I can accept responsibility. When you leave here today, I can accept responsibility for your leaving. I don't think she's just going. I accept some responsibility when you leave. And when you come back, I accept some responsibility for you coming back. Coming back you see, but the going you don't? I would encourage you to see that when you come back, that's part of your responsibility for when you go. You can't go unless you come.

[15:13]

I do my best. I really don't see it. If you can notice the first half, that sets up the possibility of seeing the second half. If you see that you're responsible for your coming, then you can see that you're responsible for your going. But again, this is not all by yourself. We're also responsible for your coming, and we're responsible for your going. When something goes, you respond to it. If you don't notice that you respond, I would say, please look more carefully. You do respond when things go. And since you respond, you are able to respond. Or because you're able to respond, you do respond. You are in a responsive relationship with things going. They're not going by themselves, because you're responding to them. You have a relationship with them. There's nothing out there that's doing something independent of you. I see you, but I hear you. If you look more carefully, you might find out that you are actually responding to the going of things,

[16:17]

and you're responding to the coming of things, and you're responding to the presence of things. When we're aware that something is leaving, we're responding. Yeah. When I see someone walking away, that's responding. Yeah. If you see somebody receiving... You're responding. You're responding by seeing them. You could also say, I see you coming. If you see someone receive the precepts, you're responding to them. You're a witness. You're a witness. That's a response to the world. That's important, to accept that you're responding, that you're witnessing the world. And then also check out, how are you witnessing the world? Well, I'm witnessing old age, and I don't see that it's blossoming.

[17:18]

But some people do see old age, and see blossoming. Excuse me, is response the same as responsibility in this dialogue? Well, it's slightly different. Responsibility is the ability to respond. So when you do respond, you're manifesting your ability to respond. But responsibility connotates like there is some level of... Like you have something to do with it. Yeah. You're contributing to its existence, is one of the meanings of responsibility. Right? I can't see how with someone going, I'm responsible for them going. Well, if you tell them to go, say, please go, and they go, then you feel like you're contributing to their going, right? But at 5.30, when we all get up and go, I'm not responsible for people leaving.

[18:24]

Am I? Am I? Am I responsible for... Probably a little bit. Yeah, more than a little. I'm a lot responsible. When you go, I'm responsible for your going. I am. I contribute to your going. And I support you to go. I allow you to go. I don't say, please don't go, stay, please. I don't do that. I say, okay, thank you, you can go. It's almost done. You know, I'm going to support you. When you start to go, I'm going to support it. I definitely feel like I'm contributing to your departure. And I also think I'm contributing to your coming. I feel responsible for your coming. I feel responsible for your going from this place. If you feel responsible for the people going, I don't say, wait a minute, you're not responsible. I am. No, I share the responsibility with you.

[19:27]

You can join the responsibility crew. Of feeling like I'm responsible for these people going off the door and down the road. I'm happy to share it with you. In other words, you're contributing to it. And by the way, thank you for the beautiful flowers. You're welcome. You contributed to the people coming. They came and you brought them flowers. Also, you responded to them. You've been responding to people all day here. When they leave, you will respond to their departure. You will. You'll feel like, oh, they're going away, bye bye. It was so nice to see you. Or, where they went. You will respond. Everybody will respond to everybody's departure, including your own. You will. And there's no end to your responding. And there's no beginning to your responding,

[20:30]

except you can respond by saying there's a beginning or an end. That's another response. It's not really a beginning and end. It's just a karmic act. Of imagining this is the beginning of our relationship. So, I want to expand my sense of responsibility. I think that goes with the blossoming universe. If you're with some dying person, and they would wake up in your presence, or you wake up in their presence, you might feel like it is a blossoming universe. And I'm with someone who's really old and sick. And the universe, the Dharma, is blossoming here. For both of us. The blossoming that you feel with my father is the opportunity to care about him.

[21:31]

Yeah, yeah. As he ages. Yeah. That's blossoming. That's blossoming. Which you could see. Now, if you feel, if the universe blossoms as you wanting to not be responsible for him, that would be a blossoming too, but it's a, what do you call it? A fleur de mal. It's a flower of evil. It's a stinky flower if you don't want to take care of him. Because you think he's stinky, so you don't want to take care of him. It's a stinky flower. It's still blossoming. It's still reality. There's still some reality there. I don't want to help him. You know that. But it's reality. It's there. And,

[22:39]

you know that there's an unknown future for this thing, if you're paying attention to reality. Yes? It seems to me that if you look at dependent co-arising and impermanence, put those two things together, you have constant blossoming. It's always changing. It's always integrity changing. Always. Yes, Max? I was just thinking about you were saying feeling responsible for us leaving or coming. And I'm having trouble. I see that as a feeling, but I think it's actually something deeper. I don't think you're responsible at all, actually. I mean, any more than anybody else. I'm not saying any more than anybody else.

[23:43]

I don't say I'm more responsible. I'm responsible in a different way. Sometimes I respond by singing to you, but not everybody does. But the way you respond is unique. Each moment you have a unique response, and so do I. But you're not more responsive than me. You're just responding the way you are, and I'm responding the way I am. And you're contributing not more or less than me. I don't think you are. I don't think we have certain sections of the universe which are making more contributions to the rest of the universe. We have some kind of low-energy places. I don't think black holes make less of a contribution than supernovas. I just don't think that. But maybe somebody will point out to me, well, you're wrong. And here's why. But I haven't heard about that,

[24:47]

that some parts are... I know that things with great mass influence in a different way than things with small mass. I know about that, but I don't think one is more responsible than the other. If great mass attracts lots of little masses, I don't think the little masses that come are less influential to the great mass than the great masses to the little masses. But maybe you disagree with me. And if you do, I hope you study that. I think your premise is borne out by the gravity equation. So you're safe. So thank you all for coming and taking care of Noah Bowen.

[25:43]

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