I said while we were sitting, who is listening to the cries of the world? And the word who could be an interrogative pronoun. Is that right? Yes. but it also can be an acronym for World Honored One. World Honored One. World Honored One. Also it's World Health Organization. Which is also true, isn't it? World Health Organization listens to the cries of the world. And the world-honored one listens to the cries of the world.

[01:08]

I propose that. But also, you know, who listens to the cries of the world? Who is that? Who is the world-honored one? so listening to the cries of the world is just sitting. So we, sometimes we call our practice in Zen just sitting. Saying that listening to the cries of the world is just sitting. And dropping off body and mind

[02:11]

So, just sitting is sitting which is dropping off, dropping off the body and mind in sitting. This is also, or this is listening to the cries of the world. Just sitting is listening to the cries of the world. Listening to the cries of the world is just sitting and dropping off which is also, this could be said, the world-honored one is just sitting, dropping off body and mind. The world-honored one is listening to the cries of the world, just sitting, dropping off body and mind. So this is a basic suggestion That's what our practice is.

[03:17]

That's what the practice of the Buddhas is. And another way of talking about it is that the real Buddha, the world-honored one, is a conversation. The real Buddha is a conversation between a Buddha and a Buddha. it's a conversation between a Buddha and themselves.

[04:21]

Because we're a conversation too. So the Buddha is not just one Buddha. The Buddha is a conversation between a Buddha and a Buddha. One Buddha cannot understand the ultimate reality. Only a Buddha together with a Buddha can understand the ultimate reality of all things. Can you hear, Linda? Yes. The conversation between Buddha and Buddha the conversation between Buddha and us, each of us. That conversation understands. The understanding is not me understanding the ultimate reality of all things, and it's not

[05:38]

who is much more advanced than me, who understands. It's that great one's conversation with me that understands. It's my conversation with that great one. That's where the understanding is living. And I think maybe, I don't know, was it Justin that asked some questions about Buddhas and sentient beings? And also Eric was asking about all things are suffering. All things are suffering. And all things are nirvana. Basically, all things are nirvana or nirvanic, are peaceful and free.

[06:49]

But then, based on that original nature, Projection of thingness onto life, and when the life gets projected as a thing that's not in conversation with its background, About suffering? No, that is suffering. When our life gets narrowed into a thing, that's suffering. But that thing is also suffering. And our life is also not a thing. Our life, which is a conversation, our life, which is a conversation, is the real Buddha. So in early Buddhism people striving to attain a peace and a freedom by getting away from bondage and suffering, by getting away from things.

[08:11]

But in the later development is that the real peace is a conversation in the midst of suffering. To sit in the middle of the suffering and find how to listen. And the listening, the listening to all the suffering, is actually a listening and a calling. The suffering is listening. I'm listening to the suffering. The suffering is calling. I'm calling to the suffering. I'm a listening and a calling, and all limited things are listening and calling. So, living being... Buddhas are not sentient beings.

[09:17]

Living beings, however, after being told Buddhas are not sentient beings, then we're told sentient beings are Buddhas. They're Buddhas in the sense that they're conversations. the way we're conversation is just like a Buddha's a conversation. And at the same time, Buddhas understand what I just said. And Buddhas can see that we are in the process of seeing what they see. We are in the process of becoming Buddhas. we are in the process of becoming the conversation which we are, realizing it. So we are, Buddhists see that we and Buddhists see that we are already Buddhists.

[10:23]

So the meetings we have in that sense, very good, because these meetings are conversations. These meetings, being conversations, are real Buddhas. These meetings are not a sentient being. These are things. If there's any things, okay, that's suffering. But these things are only suffering as not a conversation. If each thing is a conversation, then we can have a conversation with the thing. And in the conversation, we realize Buddha's wisdom. I should say, in the conversation, the conversation realizes the real Buddha and realizes that the things are also conversation.

[11:40]

And therefore, they are Buddhas too. So ultimate reality is only known by a Buddha, with a Buddha. ultimate reality is only known by a Buddha together with a Buddha. A Buddha together with a Buddha is ultimate reality. Can I take out knowing and just say only a Buddha together with a Buddha is ultimate reality? I did. What about putting the knowing back in?

[12:43]

Well, it's okay. But you don't have to. You don't have to have the knowing. You just have ultimate reality is this meeting, is this conversation. The conversation is the knowing reality. So, as I told you in other classes, at other times, in other places, we have this chant which we do, which is the truth of suchness the usual translation is, the teaching or the truth of suchness is intimately transmitted by Buddhas and ancestors. This is the teaching of the precious mirror Samadhi song. The teaching of truth

[13:48]

is intimately transmitted by Buddhas. But you can take out the is. Teaching of truth, intimate transmission. Intimate transmission is conversation, real, genuine conversation. And the teaching of such intimate conversation, Buddhas and ancestors. Buddhas and ancestors are intimate conversation, are the teaching. It's not like the Buddhas and the teaching. The Buddhas are the teaching. The teaching is the Buddhas. The teaching is the conversation. The conversation is the teaching. But you can also put the is back in and the by back in, and the no back in. Ultimate truth is not sitting someplace by itself.

[14:58]

It is ultimate truth. The highest truth, the final truth, is a mind. There's not some orphan ultimate truth without being known. And if it is, it's not. The ultimate truth is a truth that is a living thing. It's not a dead, highest or final truth. It's a mind. And minds are alive and they reproduce. How do they reproduce? Conversation. They reproduce by conversation. They reproduce by transmission. they transmit, they talk, and it goes both directions.

[16:01]

Yes? So it does sound like talking, but it wouldn't have to be talking. It wouldn't have to be talking? It wouldn't have to be talking, matter of fact. It's not talking, but it's a conversation. And talking can be going on, while the conversation is going on. So like right now I'm talking to you, but my talking is not the conversation. The conversation is you going... and just laughing. The conversation is not the talking, but there's talking going on. So it isn't a conversation. Pardon? The talking isn't the conversation. At all? Yes.

[17:04]

It totally is part of the conversation. But it's not the conversation. I said that the talk is not the conversation. What I'm saying right now isn't the conversation. Like, for example, if I go in the other room and I say what I just said, if you guys don't hear me, it's not much of a conversation. But in fact, even if I go in the other room, still, still, there's a conversation. Because if I go in there and start shouting, there's listening. Where do you think you're going? Exactly. Bye-bye. She thinks she's going. I heard that. The reality is conversation, so there is calling all the time and listening all the time, but the calling or the listening is not the conversation.

[18:19]

The listening is to the calling. calling is to the listening. That's the ultimate truth, is the conversation. But one Buddha is not the conversation and the other Buddha is not the conversation. He doesn't know the ultimate truth and this Buddha doesn't know the ultimate truth. And they're in conversation because ultimate reality is what's going on. So the conversation is going on. It's a question of discovering it. Or, yeah, you know, Buddha's already discovered it in this historical sphere. We get to discover it again after being kind of told about it. So we've heard about it. And as we enter the conversation, we will awaken to it. even though we are already awakened to it because we're already in the conversation, so we already are Buddhas, but we don't know it.

[19:26]

And we will know it. We're being told we will. We're becoming one who will know in a way we don't know now. But we're already like Buddhas, just like Buddhas. The way we are is just like Buddhas would be us. Except Buddhas would do it, would be more us than we are. Because they've been listening to the teaching to encourage them to be the God they are. And they've learned how to accept that completely. David? Pardon? Pardon? Did you say mind to mind? Yes, mind to mind. Yeah. Is it mind to mind? Yeah. How about body to body? How about eye to eye, nose to nose, finger to finger?

[20:29]

It's mind to mind, yes. Yes or no? I want to acknowledge that part of the reason I want to talk about this is, I think it's a compassionate act to share this. And also to express my gratitude to you. Last class, it was unusual to see you not sitting. So I was wondering if you're in pain, you know, because I remember when you had accident. So I got close to you and asked, how are you? Are you okay? And it was a moment.

[21:37]

You said, I am very fragile. And that really deeply affected me. I don't know how many times I shared that with different people because it keeps coming back to my mind. And I thought, we are all fragile. And this fragility... I think that's the conversation. For me, that was the conversation. It was like, really, to my heart, just... I felt... And... When I'm sitting, you don't wonder if I'm in pain.

[22:48]

And someone else thought that maybe I got up and was in pain. Tony thought that maybe, right? You thought that might be part of it? From my perspective, one of the main motivators for me to get up and walk is that a bunch of people were lined up right in front of each other. So I had to walk around to see them. It worked well. I could see quite well if I moved around. But tonight, nobody's sitting in front of anybody. Ted's a little bit obscure in Carol, but not much. So I can see everybody, so I don't have to get up and move around. But I could, couldn't I? Elena? When you said she thinks she's going, I thought I... But my question actually is, if you were to choose, if you were to...

[24:09]

let's say, choose a word other than conversation, what word would that be? If I were to choose a word other than conversation? Interaction? Dance? Co-opera? Today is Tuesday, yeah. So it wasn't yesterday. Today is Tuesday. Thank you. Thank you. Please. Please help me. So please.

[25:11]

Please. Want us to direct the opera? Kasta. Kasta Deva. Thank you. Yes?

[26:25]

It struck me while you were speaking that when you said Buddha, you said a conversation with Buddha. You also said that Buddha sees Buddha and all beings, that Buddha is always not in a conversation with Buddha. Buddha sees Buddha, or she sees Buddha and all beings. And that conversation would be with that person, that animal. Yeah, that's right. Buddha is in conversation with a rock, which is Buddha is in conversation with the rock, which is a conversation. The rock and the Buddha together are talking, are in conversation. The Buddha cannot control ultimate reality by herself. She does it in conversation with a rock.

[27:28]

Or in Zen school, the founder did it in conversation with a wall. Sat and conversed with the wall for nine years. only a wall and Bodhidharma could found the Zen school. He couldn't do it all by himself, he had to do it in a relationship. And he could do it because there was a relationship. But most people couldn't see, and most people have trouble seeing their relationship with the wall in front of them, or a floor. Buddha realizes that there's a reality in which we are in conversation with everything.

[28:45]

I'm trying to formulate my question. I wanted you to say something more about that it's not a thing, a contained... I don't know if you could ask me, because I thought... The thing doesn't contain what? No, you were talking about the person or... the object not being a thing, that the conversation takes a thing because I need a lot of things to me. Do you have a question? I'm trying to have one. You don't need one. I feel like I have one. Oh, okay. You feel like you have one. Yeah. Okay. Well, you probably do then. Do you want to try to answer that? Well, just, you know, I got a thing. This could be, somebody could see a thing in my hand, or could see my hand and think it's a thing.

[29:50]

But this hand, it doesn't contain the conversation, but this hand Actually, this hand doesn't include, no. This hand doesn't contain anything, but it includes everything. And the way it includes everything is this conversation with everything. Yes. The thing is a thing. You can never really define it. And you can say whatever you want about anything. And everybody else can say whatever they want about the thing, too. And what you say and what I say and what he says are all equally true. Yep. Yes. Yes. So then it's not a thing.

[31:06]

It's a conversation, and it's a big conversation. It's a big one. Because everything is everything. But not everything in the same way, everything in a different way. So every conversation is different and unique and fragile. Every conversation is fragile and is deeply touching. And responding to that is the listening and the observing with compassion. It's the love which isn't liking or disliking. It's relating to the conversational of whatever. And you can feel this fragility of a rock and, of course, of a baby. Yeah, so if people ask me, if people say, are you well?

[32:18]

I say, yes. If they say, are you great? I say, yes. Are you good? Yes. If they ask me how I am, I say I'm fragile. And that seems to enact a conversation. And then some people say, you don't look fragile. A rock doesn't look fragile, maybe. But a rock's fragile too. Yes? Why do you say the conversation's fragile? Even the conversation's fragile. Why? Why? I think saying is strong. Okay. The conversation is strong. It's like alive.

[33:19]

It's vital. Like, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's, we can say other things. Why say fragile? Why say fragile? Because things don't look fragile. And they are. And the conversation, by the way, is also... it's indestructible, too. It's eternal. But if we don't accept that it's fragile, and that everything is fragile, then we might not listen to its cry and look at it with love. It's in that way of relating to it that we open is beyond the way we can see and hear.

[34:23]

But not by not seeing and hearing, but by really wholeheartedly seeing. We open to what is beyond hearing and seeing, which is already totally in conversation with what we can see and hear. We are a conversation between our visible self and our invisible self. Amanda! Is that loud enough? Yeah. I was thinking if someone came to me and... Even you are being requested to speak up. And when I feel very fragile and vulnerable, like somebody might hear me, I might enter into a conversation in a real kind of way.

[35:55]

I think we knew. And actually this is all part of what I wanted to say, which is when someone brings their, when someone expresses their fragility or vulnerability to me, I notice that myself, it's such a gift because in some way I sort of drop whatever it is I'm holding. and sort of drop it. And I sort of listen in a way that's appropriate for someone expressing fragility and vulnerability. And my own vulnerability is sort of called form. And it's just a different kind of meaning. Your own vulnerabilities call forth.

[37:10]

Your own vulnerability is welcomed. Vulnerability is invited to come out into the open. And be confirmed. And being allowed And he also says something about there's a kind of a way of responding to this vulnerability that comes up, that's called forth in you. One word that might be good to bring up there is tenderness. Suzuki Rishi said, Zazen is a great tenderizer. But I just earlier said, Zazen is listening to the cries of the world.

[38:18]

So that's one way to talk about it, is that when we sit, we do start, you know, listening to the cries of the world, and we become more and more tender. And then, yeah, and then we start relating to all these other fragile beings in a tender way. Which again, facilitates more of the same. Yes? So it seems to me that that is how we can be helpful to redeem suffering. Say more. Well, if we recognize in each other our tenderness or our vulnerability, that goes a long way to being seen, understood.

[39:22]

It feels like that's compassion. Yes. But what about the relieving of suffering? How does that work? Well, it seems to me that the ease of suffering would be to drop the guard. Drop the guard. Drop the guard, yeah. Open to the conversation. The conversation is what liberates. The conversation is the liberation. And the tenderness and the listening and the tenderness and the dropping of the guard open to the conversation. The suffering is relieved without messing with it, without making a fragile person not fragile.

[40:31]

Yes. Yes. And if you're living in an open relationship, With fragility, you will be ready for the conversation with the earthquake. And some people, like surfers, they cultivate an openness to fragility with gravity, wind, and surfboards. They accept the fragility of being balanced. So they can balance in situations where most people can't because they're like really into the ability of balance.

[41:41]

Yeah, I don't know. Are they tender with the surfboard? Are they tender with the waves? Yes, Linda? Am I talking too loudly? What do you think? Loudly? It's a little different. It's a different tone. Yeah. I know it's a different tone, but I'm asking you, is it too loud? so I'm thinking about the rock and the fragility and I'm just kind of feeling like well let's see it seems more like precious precious precious oh yes precious where in in the fragility

[43:05]

Is the fragility related to its temporary status? I think it is. Temporary status. Yep. Is that what you mean by fragility? Well, like thinking about the rock. That's part of it. The temporariness is part of it. But it's a little bit different from temporary. It's saying temporary in a way to encourage. So it's very similar and very closely related to impermanence. But somehow impermanence, for most people, when you say that word, it doesn't call out the tenderness. Whereas fragility does. Yeah, and it's a little more than impermanence, too, because its meaning is everything.

[44:08]

It's so many things coming together and so much time. Yeah, maybe it points more to the way things are bearing down on the fragile situation. Impermanence maybe doesn't, impermanence has this big tough word in it, permanence. It's not permanent. Permanent is like, whereas the word fragile is like it's all over the place. There's nothing tough about it. So somehow the word fragile also related to weak. So usually it's subject to distraction. Not subject to distraction. That's more vulnerable. But it's a little bit like that, but it's also like weak. Like something really tough is also vulnerable.

[45:12]

Anyway, that word is offered to stimulate this tenderness. Impermanence is a really good word too, and I think impermanence stimulates more, I think it stimulates maybe seriousness and the awareness that it would be good to practice virtue. And also impermanence is like sobering. And in a sober state we are more ready to practice attention to our ethical activity or our karma. Fragile brings in a little bit more

[46:17]

of the compassion more. The tenderness, the gentleness, and the carefulness, but not so much in... Anyway, they're both really important words. The temporariness, the impermanence, the fragility. Yes? I thought of another good word, which is intimacy. Mm-hmm. And it came to my mind when you were talking about the surfer, and I thought, you know, surfer, tender with the waves, and I thought, it's a paying attention to the waves, to the balance, it's like a really very intimate relationship. Very intimate. We're all intimate with the waves. When most of us go out and get knocked down by them, it's very intimate. It's like surprisingly intimate. Suddenly you have this wave says, hello, and you say, oh my wave.

[47:28]

You are like, you are immense, even though you're only 18 inches tall. It's amazing. We're intimate, but the surfers, you know, in some ways more deeply than just getting knocked down. Because they spend so much time with them. So we're all, they wake up, it's a matter of waking up to intimacy. Intimacy is already there. Intimacy is, the conversation is... And so practicing conversation is a way to wake up to intimacy. And so many Zen stories are conversations where people wake up to intimacy, which is to wake up to the conversation. Conversation, to wake up to the conversation, to wake up to the transmission. Yes? Yes, I had an experience. That's a good place to have an experience.

[48:33]

A bathroom is a good place to have an experience. The tiniest little bug walking on the side of the bathtub. And I felt deeply, I felt love for that little book. I felt there was a conversation. However, there may be something wrong in my telling this. There may be. If there's anything wrong in this conversation, can you tell me? If there is, could I tell you? Is that what you said? If there's anything wrong in this conversation, can you tell me? Am I telling the conversation? I don't know if I can tell you. But anyway, I'm glad you had this meeting.

[49:41]

I'm glad you had an intimate meeting with a small animal in your bathroom. It was an adorable little... Tiny little thing. No shape. I had a person on my back earlier today, my leader. I was the horsey again. She's on spring break, but her mother isn't, so I took care of her this morning, and I borrowed knee pads from the Gringold shop. It made it much more convenient. And so while we were walking across the floor, I saw this small spider. And... She could see it too. I did not think this is an adorable spider. I didn't think it was an ugly spider either.

[50:42]

I could barely see it. But I could see it moving and I realized that it would be very difficult to keep going and not squash the spider. I didn't particularly want to squash the spider with my knee pads. So I pointed it out to the which, by the way, sounds like a really good movie. And she started leaning down there, too, and then she took a, I don't know, she had a coin in her hand, and she pushed the, well, maybe the coin was on the floor. She found a coin on the floor, and she pushed the coin. The spider, and as the coin got closer, the spider ran really much faster. So she did that for a while, and then the spider moved over out of the way, and we proceeded. That was the conversation that she and I had with the spider. And yeah, that's where it's at. Yes?

[51:43]

I have a report on a conversation that got started between you and me on the first Sunday in January. Yes? And you were doing a public lecture and one of the things you said was something that it's possible to care too much. That sounds like me. Yeah. There's a very strong reaction to that statement. What's been happening? You're strong. I'm sorry? You're strong. Yes. No, you're strong. Oh, and very fragile. Yeah. [...] question that I didn't have a question before.

[52:50]

Before I didn't have a question, I thought the job was to sit Zaza and say, open your heart more and let him more suffer. That was kind of a secret agenda, just As we're talking tonight, I realized that I'm not so clear on the difference between caring slash compassion slash tender slash intimate. I got them a little bit all mixed up. So when I thought that for you to say you could care too much, I was like, possibly say that. So I've really been looking at what does caring mean, and what do you mean when you say you care too much? So it's just been one of the richest inquiries I've ever lived into. So it sounds like you can't be too tender. So you're not saying, There's a limit on tenderness, but there is a limit on caring.

[53:53]

So not wondering what's the difference between being tender to the cries of the world and caring. So what is it about caring that you're warning? And I can kind of get that it's true that you can't care too much, and I never thought that. So even though I don't understand it, I kind of get it. But I am interested in what you say about what's the bad part about caring. The bad part about caring? Caring is good. Caring is good. What's the bad thing about caring too much? Oh, it hurts people. It harms people. And also it closes the door on what caring opens. Caring opens doors. Caring too much, caring too little starts to close them. Is being tender too much to close doors? Pardon? Does being too tender close doors? Yeah, but again, tenderness is not exactly the same thing as caring.

[54:53]

It's more about you do care and tenderness helps you to care not too much. Well, like you care about somebody's eye. Eyes are kind of fragile, right? Like if you stick your, even if you pull somebody's eyelids open and just touch it with your finger, it would really hurt, right? They give you sedative on your eye because they want to touch it to examine, right? Eye, it's very sensitive. Like if it gets brushed by, even brushed by your hair, you feel it, right? Very fragile, sensitive surface there, right? But you might care about an eye. And so you want to be tender with it, right?

[55:56]

If you care about it, you want to be tender with the way you touch it. And if you're an eye surgeon, you would want to be tender, right? But if you're an eye surgeon and you're operating on your daughter's eye, you might actually have trouble being tender because you care so much. Your hand is maybe stiff and tight and you don't have that tender touch that you would have with someone that you care about because you care about people's eyes, it's your work. You want to help people's eyes, you want to give them medical attention with your hands and your instruments. a lot, and you spent years and years learning how to do this, and years and years practicing, and now it's time to operate on your daughter's eye, but you care too much. So you're not very good at being tender. So you bring somebody in who cares a lot, but not too much, and they can be tender.

[57:01]

You don't want to hurt her, but you don't know how to be tender, because you're too worked up. Yeah. Caring with attachment. And, yeah. So that would be an example. I actually know a surgeon who told me he would not want to operate on his own daughter, if possible, because his hand would not be, you know... Tender can be precise, can be precise, too. You care to... thread the needle. You care a lot, maybe, to thread the needle. But if you care too much, you can't thread the needle. You can't be tender with the thread and, you know, you're too rough. So you can't perform the operation which you want to perform. And it's fine to really want to do it really, really well.

[58:04]

That's all fine. And then it's too much. And then things tighten up and So the fragility is to help you actually to see something that's precious. And fragility will help you see the preciousness without tensing up. Linda? I've been wanting to tell this line of poetry, but I'm not sure if it's... It seems like caring too much is a kind of compassion that has got some delusion in it. Yeah. I remember this Indian singer, she gave me a song from 8th century Buddhist poets, you know, in India.

[59:08]

And it's called the Compassion Poet. And it just keeps repeating, karuna, karuna, compassion. And the chorus is, compassion is filled with emptiness. Yeah. Yeah. And there's three kinds of compassion. One is one that many of us have seen in people and it's beautiful, which has an object. But it's also sometimes called sentimental compassion. And then there's compassion which is compassion for elements. where you're starting to let what you have compassion for, maybe like, starting to see the fragility of the thing, that it's not this clear, solid thing that you felt compassion for originally.

[60:10]

You start to see, yeah, you start to open to that the thing is more than you thought it was. And then the final compassion is called great compassion, but also objectless compassion. where there's generosity and all these other practices towards all things, but you don't think it's out there, separate from yourself. And it's not to get rid of the other kinds. They're still there. They're part of the process. Yes? When conversation is a rock or a wave,

[61:11]

Well, I don't know. You may discover that rocks are crying, but even if you don't, even before you hear the rock crying, opening to the cries you can hear and learning how to listen to those wholeheartedly, ...caring too much or too little, you will open, and even if you don't feel like the rock is crying for help, you will realize that you're in conversation with the rock. You will wake up to that the rock is you. ...conversation with yourself in the form of something that's other than you. Hmm? The suffering is always here. The suffering is always here.

[62:15]

And the conversation is always here. It seems like some particular thing you may not feel that it's calling out in pain. Yeah, the suffering is still here. But the conversation is still here. The real Buddha is still here too. The Buddha is always here. Samsara is always here, and nirvana is always here. That's one reality, that's a type of reality, which is not alternating between samsara and nirvana, and not going from samsara into nirvana. That's a reality. And Buddhism, as you know, arose in India, And this thing about leaving India and going someplace really nice was very popular in India.

[63:18]

Indian people were, a lot of them were really into, let's get out of here. This is like a hard place to live. We have a lot of suffering here. And it's true, they're right. And they still do. I wouldn't say India has a corner on the market for suffering, but they're really aware. And if you go to India, somehow they don't hide it from you that much. You can see a lot of suffering. But in ancient times, a lot of people wanted to get out of India and go to nirvana. And the paths that offered that were quite fairly popular. And Buddhism said, oh yeah, we have a way to get out of here and go to nirvana. And most Buddhists were into that type. But before Buddhism kind of like got temporarily squashed by the... It had a hard time when the Muslims came and destroyed all the monasteries and stuff.

[64:27]

It sort of, kind of disappeared in a way around the 12th century. But before that, this thing called the great vehicle, the Bodhisattva vehicle arose, and there was this idea of not leaving samsara, but staying in samsara and having conversations with everybody and making Buddhas. Because that's how you make Buddhas. Buddhas aren't made by leaving samsara and going to nirvana. The Buddha didn't do that. Samsara a really long time and became a Buddha by conversing in samsara. And this particular path of becoming a Buddha, which is not to get out of samsara, but to be in samsara and do the fun Buddha thing. Buddha's joy is not to be out of here. Buddha's joy is to be here teaching people. Buddha is a very joyful creature who teaches people how to be Buddhas.

[65:36]

That's what's really great. Being free of suffering is good. But being a Buddha means that you can help others, teach them how to be free of suffering, and then teach them that freedom of suffering is good, but then we have another thing to do called teaching people, which is inconceivably more great. And that's the process. But this teaching in India was never very popular. Indian people was like... stay in samsara a long, long time to become a Buddha, that's wonderful. That's either silly or ridiculous. Let's get out of here. But somehow when it went to China, they have a lot of suffering there too, but somehow they got captivated by this idea of this bodhisattva path.

[66:38]

And so in China vehicle, which is not about getting out of samsara, but about being in samsara and making Buddhas. And, yeah, that became the dominant form of Buddhism. And Zen's, you know, in that medium of living in samsara wholeheartedly, interacting with it, conversing with it, and listening to others, and listening to them tell you how to live, and calling to them. This kind of thing is a way that now we're talking about here. I'm really distressed by the way you just representing Indian history. And I just want to mention that... Well, I'm not going away from this distress. I'm not going away from your distress.

[67:44]

You're welcome to do another representation now. I'm just going to say this much. For example, you said Buddhism was... kind of limited in the early phase, and then they got the real great truth, and then the Muslims... I didn't say that, though. Well, I'm just... That's how you felt. Okay, but the thing I was upset about, especially, was then the Muslims came and destroyed Buddhism. I just would like to put into people's understanding that that is not a sensitive way to represent that history, and I'll stop. Okay. Do you want to do a more sensitive way? Yeah. The history of losing my fault is very complex in India as well as everywhere else. And various things happening in it and all its complexities that were weakening it from within as well as factors from without.

[68:52]

And part of that process included a rise of Muslim power, which didn't like the Buddhist ways of worshipping. But that was part of a very complex picture, and I don't want to encourage anybody to have that kind of stereotype. Well, Buddhism was really flourishing with the truth, and then Muslims came and destroyed it. So it went to China, where they were always at. I'm sorry. I'm sorry at all, actually. Thank you for telling the truth that you're not sorry. Okay, what you just did was where it's at. Conversation. No matter what I say, no matter what I say about India, it's a stereotype. It's a stereotype. unless I talk about one Indian.

[69:54]

If I talk about five Indian people, I'm going to just talk about them. That's the only way you can talk about it. If I talk about a million or a billion, it's going to be stereotypes. So I'm going to throw out stereotypes. That's the best way to talk about a billion people, a stereotype. I just said that. That But I said that, okay? And you said, no, it's not. But I didn't believe what I just said. And I hope you didn't believe, no, it's not. It's the conversation. So there's nothing I can put out that's going to make it. And if you're upset, you're invited to speak. And the conversation is what I'm talking about. So I've heard stereotypes about Buddhism, which is that the Buddhist practice was more popular, Mahayana was less popular.

[71:03]

That's a stereotype. Buddhism, Mahayana was more popular in India, China. That's a stereotype. But what I just said, Well, that can be the conversation too, that you feel like stopping. Okay? And maybe I'll stop now. But I'm just saying that if I put out a stereotype, you can point out that it's a stereotype and you can disagree. That's what I'm talking about. Is that you, whatever I say, listen to it and call. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm saying is the real Buddha. which includes that you want to start, you want to stop, all that . So I'm glad if you have a problem that you don't keep it to yourself, that you put it out in the group, and then we can practice working with whatever you said.

[72:13]

And also, I put stuff out, I want you to... Let's practice this . This is practicing the real Buddha. Yes? I have learned from you because I see that you really enjoy saying the same thing over and over again to us. He's a stereotype of himself. What he just said was a stereotype of me, which a lot of people have that stereotype. So there's all these different Rebs, and one of them is that he says the same thing over and over. I was going to say one more important thing, but I forgot. Yes?

[73:16]

But you do it creatively. And you just... And then right after you said that, I remembered the important thing, which I was going to say that I forgot. Which is that when I first came to Zen Center, they did these... They were testing some of the meditators over at UC Medical Center. And they did these tests where the person would be sitting in meditation and they would... at the bell. And then they would ring the bell. The person would be, their brain or whatever, connected to some electric device, and then they'd ring the bell. And then they would measure the neural response to it. And so, like just then, I had a big response, a surprisingly big response to that, because...

[74:21]

And then they would ring it again and measure it, and ring it again and measure it, and ring it again and measure it. And for most people, if you ring the bell, the response is, let's say, ten units high, and then you ring it again and it's, and then you ring it again, eight, and so on. After a while you ring it, there's almost no response. Is that called a, is that called a, huh? Huh? Yeah. And then, but with the meditator, they ring it and they keep going, 10, 10, 10, 10. Yeah, right, 10, 10, 10, 10. They think boring things are really interesting. Or they think it's a great creative act, you know. The same thing, they're, wow, did you see that? Yeah. That's the same as yesterday. Really? Oh, wow. That's amazing too.

[75:24]

So, you know, they have a high tolerance for boredom. So another way to put it is they think almost everything's interesting. Even boring people. So you're kind of like a Zen person. Interesting.

[75:42]

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