I brought up that case, number nine, in the Book of Serenity, about where Jaojo is, I mean, where Nanchuan's holding up the cat. You know, the monks were arguing over the cat, and Nanchuan held the cat up and said, If someone can give a good word or can speak, the cat's life will be saved. Otherwise, it will be cut in two. Some people wanted to talk about that, and I hesitated to go back in the text to look at that case. But then I thought maybe, since it's such an important case and there seemed to be quite a bit of interest, I was thinking maybe to do a workshop on that case, case number nine.

[01:16]

And I wondered, part of the reason for that is that it's the one example in the history of Buddhism of a story of a person who is said to be an enlightened teacher who may have killed something, you know, pretty big, like a cat. I don't know of any other example. I know of some other examples where there's an example of Buddha in a past life killing someone. to save the lives of 500 people but in this case it's a little bit different so people are always troubled by this case so I thought it might be good to have a workshop on it I wondered how many of you would like to have a workshop on that so maybe this summer we'll have a workshop on that now would you like a one day workshop or a weekend workshop how many people would like a one day workshop

[02:20]

How many people would, including the people who wanted a one-day workshop, how many people would like a weekend workshop? So a one-day workshop was more possible, I guess, probable, popular, plausible. OK, so maybe in July we'll have a workshop on that case. You might sort of, like maybe around July, the weekend around July 15th. Is it July 17th? July 17th? That Friday? So July 18th, maybe we'll have a one-day workshop. Now other people who might be interested can come. Okay, so... And that story, that case, is about Nan Xuan, and Nan Xuan's, one of his most noted disciples, or if not his most noted disciple, is Zhao Zhou, who is one of the monks in Case 57.

[03:37]

And in that story about the Nan Xuan and the cat, after the cat is cut in two, Zhao Zhou was not around at the time, None of the monks could come forward and respond to this situation of this endangered cat. But later Jiaojiao came back and Jiaojiao told him what happened and Jiaojiao took one of his sandals and put it on his head and walked off. Nanchuan liked that response and said, if Zhaozhou had been here, the cat's life would have been saved. So Nanchuan and many other teachers, like, for example, Dogen Zenji, really appreciated what Zhaozhou did. So Zhaozhou is... I think Zhaozhou was...

[04:42]

very important teacher for a lot of monks and a lot of other teachers. He was such a great teacher, or such a lousy teacher, that he had no disciples. But he was a teacher of many people, but nobody succeeded to him. So his lineage, in a literal sense, he didn't have successors that carried on. Now, in a sense, this person in this story is one of his successors, because this person was awakened by the teaching of Zhaozhou. But before we go any further, now that everyone's arrived, Klaus, the Zhaozhou, are some of you unfamiliar with Zhaozhou? He's not like a family name to you? Is that Joshu? Joshu, yeah. Joshu.

[05:46]

Japanese way of saying it is Joshu. So I guess some of you are not familiar with him? Well, he's also, he's the guy in the story, you know, does a dog have Buddha nature? Same guy. You know that story? Does a dog have Buddha nature? Who? Who? He's the man who said moo. Well, actually, on another occasion, you know, they said, does a dog have Buddha nature? And he said, yo. Or you. One time he said moo, which means in Japanese it's moo, in Chinese it's woo, which means no or there isn't any. And then in another story, he said yo, or you, which means yes, dog does have Buddha nature. So that's another story about him.

[06:48]

They say that when he talked, Um, sparks came off his lips. They call them hot lips. There was, however, some stuff left over from last week. Like Stella had a question, right? And did Lisa too have a question? Did Stella and Lisa have kind of questions that were kind of hanging at the end there? What were they? Well, I read the story of, I guess it was Sean again, of...

[08:14]

Whether an inanimate object. Oh, yeah. The Dharma. And the idea that the more consciousness we have, the farther away from our interdependence we get, so that maybe evolution, our idea that evolution is backwards, maybe not backwards, but maybe it's that way. And you were saying that as our consciousness evolves, maybe it's evolving backwards because we get out of touch with interdependence, that we can't see, that we can't understand that inanimate objects are teaching Dharma, that kind of thing? Is that an example? Well, that might be one of the things that we don't understand, but that... But it's not necessarily a compromise.

[09:25]

It's a demonstration. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I haven't recited that story for a while, but I'll try. So, um, Dungsan was traveling around and he came to visit a... Actually, Dungsan... I told you about Dungsan last week, how he was kind of a very inquiring young monk and his teacher sent him away because he was too much for him. Remember that? Mm-hmm. And... after traveling and after going to various teachers, I think maybe, I don't know how old he was, but pretty young anyway still, he visited Nanchuan.

[10:29]

He came to visit Nanchuan. And Nanchuan's teacher was Matsu, Master Ma. So, and Nanchuan was doing a ceremony for Master Ma and He asked a question, and Dongshan, this young monk, among his big assembly of more mature monks, this young man was the only one who could come forward and respond. And he was recognized in a large assembly as a very developed young monk. He kept traveling, and he went to another famous Zen master named Guishan. Lingyu, and he said to Guishan, I've heard that the national teacher, Zhang, national teacher Zhang, has a teaching about the inanimate objects expounding the Dharma.

[11:36]

And I think Guishan said, yeah, we have that teaching here too. he said, can you, you want to ask a question about that? Why don't you recite the case? Recite the story that you've heard. So then Dung Shan recites the story. And the way the story goes is that a monk came to the national teacher and the monk asked the national teacher something like, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhas? Something like that. And the national teacher said, walls, tiles, and pebbles, or walls and broken tiles, broken wall tiles. And the monk said, well, can those things expound the Dharma, in parentheses, like a Buddha could?

[12:43]

And the Nash teacher said, Yes, they do expound the Dharma incessantly and incandescently. And the monk said, if they expound them, why can't I hear them expound the Dharma? And the teacher said, although you may not hear it, don't hinder that which does hear it. And the monk said, Master, do you hear it? The monk asked the national teacher, do you hear the inanimate objects expounding the Dharma? Oh no, he didn't. He said, who hears the inanimate objects expounding the Dharma? And he said, saints hear it. Remember the saints from the previous case that we are supposed to be careful of becoming?

[13:48]

He said, saints hear it. And then the monk says, well, Master, do you hear it? And he said, no, I don't. In parentheses, I'm not a saint. Close parentheses. Or brackets or anything. Well, if you don't hear it, how do you know about them expounding it? And the teacher said, if I heard it, I wouldn't be able to help you. And then the monk says to the national teacher, are there any scriptures that teach this teaching besides you? And

[14:50]

The master teacher says, yeah, haven't you heard in the sutra on infinite light how the Buddha said that, I forgot what he said, you know, mountains and rivers and the great earth all expound the Dharma. And Dengshan said, and that was the end of the story. And he said, that's the story. And Guishan lifted his whisk You know those whisks that Zen teachers have in their hands sometimes? He lifted his whisk and he said, do you understand? And Dengshan, smart as he was, said no. And Guishan said, well, I guess, you know, the face that my mother and father gave me is not going to be the one that's going to teach you this stuff, I guess. So I have somebody to recommend, though. His name is Yun Yan.

[15:54]

I mean, if you go see him, you'll be able to get it from him. So then he goes to see Yun Yan, and it's a pretty long trip, but then he goes to Yun Yan, and he recites the story to Yun Yan. And... I don't remember if Yun-Yen raises his whisk or not. I don't think so. Anyway, he recites this story to Yun-Yen and I think he says something like, are there any scriptures that have this teaching in it? And Yun-Yen says, yeah, haven't you heard of the Avatamsaka Sutra where it says fields and grasses and all that stuff expound the Dharma? And Dongshan understood a little bit. But if you look at that story, maybe you can see something about, you know, saints can hear inanimate objects seeing things.

[17:16]

Bodhisattvas maybe can't. But it doesn't mean that there isn't something there which does hear it. And although you may not be able to hear it, you still may be able to be helped. Although you may not be able to hear them expounding it, you may still be able to understand why you can't understand them, why you can't hear them. And maybe somebody who can't hear them can help you be helped in your inability to hear. So, as Lisa was saying, it seems like maybe as we're evolving, in some sense we're going backwards, but in a way, in a way, you could say that you could have a different story, namely that there was a time when there were saints of old which could understand this, but they couldn't help people who didn't understand, who didn't hear it.

[18:31]

And the more we evolve, the more we get out of touch, the more we have to help, the more we can help. So in one sense, the evolution is, you might say, things are getting rougher. But on the other side, you can say that the opportunities are increasing. You have more and more opportunities. And Stella? You had a question too? Last week I did. Yeah. I was trying to understand the concept of mobility. I didn't, I didn't, it sort of sounded to me as if it was like kings, emperors, and they said, hey, I would prefer if we could serve, if it was the state of mobility or concept of mobility acting in a normal way.

[19:38]

Yeah. So I, I think the, uh, The concept of nobility being acting in a noble way. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's what it is. No, that's what it is. It's the concept of nobility being acting in a noble way. That's right. Yeah. That's right, they're not. But it's like that. It's like... It's like... What do you call it? It's like having a huge house full of jewels and not seeing the jewels. Or it's like being... It's like feeling really impoverished and helpless and decrepit and frightened and ashamed and scared and...

[20:43]

hopeless and suffering and confused it's like feeling all those things and not and not feeling like you're and not being able to believe that you're from a family of people who are you know, over brimming with love and strength and courage and confidence and clarity and skillful ways of helping people. So the example is that, you know, from the Lotus Sutra is that of this kid that wanders away, gets lost and and winds up thinking that he's just a scum of the earth. But he's actually from a very nice family. His parents love him. And his parents are incredibly wealthy and generous and powerful.

[21:49]

And when he sees his parents, and they see him, they're delighted to see him. They're so happy they've missed him all the years. They get their son back. But he's just terrified of them because he thinks they're just going to make a slave out of him. Because he thinks he's worth nothing better than that. So the father gives him a job shoveling shit for many years to build his confidence. And after shoveling shit for many years, he has the confidence to come into the house as a worker. And after working in the house for a number of years, he has the confidence to take more and more responsibility. Finally, the father says, you know, you're just like my son. And he can kind of say, yeah, I guess I kind of am. That's just like after 75 years of training or something. And then finally the father says, you are my son. And you have been all along. And he can believe it. So it's that kind of point of view that we don't really believe that our state is the state of a child of Buddha.

[23:04]

But we are actually Buddha's children. Buddha has no other children but us. Has no better children than us. Has no better children than us. We are the beings that Buddhas love. Not just us, there's people outside the room too that Buddhas love. But not just people either, you know, everything. All living beings Buddhas love. And they don't, they're not into us like saying, you know, if you people were a little bit better I would really love you. No. We are the life of Buddha. We are what makes Buddha's life the life of Buddha. Do we feel like that? But when we don't, then it's like we've lost sight of our noble family. Does that make any sense to you? That's what the nobility is. It's in the Lotus Sutra.

[24:13]

It's kind of like the prodigal son, except the twist on this one is that I don't know if the prodigal son was kind of disbelieving of his... I think he could remember his father, right? In the Bible? This guy can't remember his parents. Can't believe that his parents are his parents. I mean, it's inconceivable to him. But he finally does believe it. Is there enough air in the room for you people?

[25:26]

Huh? Well, you can open the windows. Pardon? Yeah, you look kind of depressed. Maybe open the windows, that might help. Maybe just oxygen deprivation. Rather than you don't believe you're Buddha's children. You look kind of like that guy that's been lost for 50 years and can't believe he's Buddha's kid. He was really happy to find out. Now I just told you and you don't look happy. But he also wasn't kind of being smothered when he was told that. Okay, should we study this case now? Yeah, sure. The introductions kind of might be helpful. Playing with reflections, struggling for the form, you don't recognize that the form is the source of the reflection.

[26:37]

The next one, I think, is really to the point. Raising your voice to stop and echo You don't know the voice is the root of the echo. That's the thing that a lot of meditators do. They raise their voice to stop the echo. There's an echo going on, and they raise their voice to stop that echo, not realizing that the voice they raise to stop the echo is the source of the echo. Do you understand? Does that make sense to you? Good. Anybody who doesn't make sense to you that would dare to say so? Yes? What do you understand about that? Or what don't you understand about that? Yes. What I understand is that the echo is my own inner voice, like the sound in my own head.

[27:44]

Yes, right. But I understand that raising the voice Well, like some people are meditating and they hear this echo in their head, this voice. Yeah, there's self-talk in there, you know. Whatever, you know. It's the kind of talk that you want to stop. You ever hear any talk you want to stop? Right? So then you think, I want to stop that. Or you say, shut up. Or you have some plan to stop it. or some meditation practice which will stop it. But all those things you do, all those maneuvers or all those ways of talking to that echo to get it to shut up, to calm down, to be better behaved, those things you're doing are the source of the echo. They're the source of the thing you're trying to get rid of. So you're trying to get rid of something with the thing that gives rise to it. So karma, that like, karma, just breathing, Yeah, you're maybe dealing with a karmic result, for example.

[28:47]

So then you use karma to stop the karmic result, and you just generate more cause for the thing you're trying to stop. If you would leave the echo alone, leaving the echo alone is not the source of the echo. That's something new. That's something that's kind of rare on the planet among humans, to, like, leave the echoes alone. What's very common is to try to manipulate the echoes. Is this way of saying put it down? Is this saying put it down? That's what George was saying. He said put it down. Oh, sorry, I'm getting a little bit ahead there. I went a little bit further, I'm sorry. It's okay. Really.

[29:53]

Question about the next line in the introduction. Next line in the introduction? The next line in the introduction is, if it's not riding an ox, looking for an ox, then it's using a wedge to remove a wedge. You have a question? Yes, I do. There's a sutra in the Middleang Discourses. It's called the Vida Kamsantahama. I can't say it, right? It's the removal of distractive thoughts. And one of the methods is to use a small peg to knock out a larger peg. And that's what I think of when I hear the wedge to remove a wedge. And it's like a recommended use. Right. At least that's what I walked away with. Okay.

[31:01]

That confuses me now. Okay, so that's one. Let's leave that there for a second. Let's put it on a shelf just for a second, okay? This thing about riding an ox to look for ox, that sounds like something which I often bring up, is riding the thief's horse to chase the thief. Sounds like riding the ox to look for the ox, but it's not the same. One of the Zen sayings, one of the Zen recommendations is, you ride the thief's horse to chase the thief. which I've often translated as you ride karma to chase the thief, karma. In other words, you become intimate with karma as a way to become free of karma. But that's not that you... You don't ride karma to look for karma. You ride karma to tame karma. It's a little different.

[32:07]

Now, Kevin's bringing up this example where he said use a small peg to knock out a big peg. That sounds like he used a small hindrance to knock out a bigger hindrance, doesn't it? And he said that's a recommended practice. This is slightly different. This is more like straight using the same size peg, just putting the same size peg in for the other peg. That sounds like a gradual method of gradually, you know, gradually reducing the size of the problem by using the little version of it to knock out the bigger version of it. And that is sometimes recommended in practice. And... Hmm? What? You did? Oh, man. And... Anyway, I'm recommending that we set aside power in our practice.

[33:22]

Try to just like cold turkey, set power aside and practice love. Which, in various ways to put this, but one way to put it, which I like, is be very attentive to whatever's happening without manipulation. So, but sometimes, you know, for example, there's practices called the four right efforts, and the first of the four right efforts are practices, or is a practice, which is to prevent the arising of unwholesome states that have not yet arisen. In other words, to prevent the arising of unwholesome states. And the main way, again, the main way that I like to use to prevent the arising of unwholesome states that haven't arisen is the practice of disciplining

[34:33]

ourselves in relationship to our sensory experience so that we keep ourselves very close to the basic sense experience. Now, of course, it's not really sense experience. It is the conceptual reworking of the sense experience. So you hear a sound. We don't consciously hear sounds. We consciously hear the concept of sounds. But we relate to that sound just as a sound. And if we can have this very unadorned attention, which doesn't manipulate or want anything different, This attitude with respect to our sense experience, in effect, does not allow the arising of unwholesome states of consciousness.

[35:38]

Yes? That's very close to the first sentence of the introduction. Which is? Playing with reflections, struggling for the form. You don't recognize it, but born is the source of reflection. Well, how do you mean it's similar? It sounds like the opposite. Playing with her? You do recognize it. I meant recognizing it. Oh, yeah. It's doing what you're saying. Yeah. I wanted to praise the first sentence. You wanted to praise it? Huh? When I read this first sentence, I recovered my book in a much nicer way. What? When I read this first sentence of this introduction, I recovered my copy of Book of Serenity. So you felt really good? So you wanted everything in the Book of Serenity to be nice? I just wanted to honor it.

[36:41]

You just wanted to honor every single word in it? That's what you mean? Yeah, and I would honor that first sentence by saying that's the way to, if you respond that way to things, if you play with reflections and struggle with forms, then that opens the door to unwholesome states of consciousness. That's what I would say. Which is good, because then you can have some unwholesome states of consciousness to struggle with and play with. You didn't understand what? I said it's good if you have unwholesome states of consciousness because then you can play with them and struggle with them. And then that's good because then you get more and you can do more. So then you can write this first sentence over and over and over and have an introduction which is like your whole life. That's good, isn't it? And then, after that, you can...

[37:43]

And then you can go to heaven. What? You can die happy? No. Just die. Just die. If you're still happy, you aren't dead yet. Oh, I see. Well, you learn something every day. What's happening? Anyway, if you prevent the arising of these states of consciousness, pretty much there aren't any unwholesome states of consciousness then.

[38:48]

They're not happening to you. They're not manifesting. However, if they do manifest as a whole, there's another set of practices for the ones that have manifested. And they are a little bit... sound a little bit like manipulation. Huh? What? Which last one? Yeah, right. They sound a little manipulative, and actually the last of the antidotes to unwholesome states is a kind of fascist repression of what's going on. It's like a heavy, it's kind of like, you know, kind of like, evil state, okay, smash all up. This is like, you know, and actually the Buddha kind of recommends it. He says, if you're really like, you've tried everything else, and you're like overwhelmed, you're possessed by evil, well, actually just stop it.

[39:54]

Just stop it. Just like knock it off, you know. But that's like the last resort. Stuffing anger. Stuffing, no, it's not stuff. Stuffing is not, no, it's crushing it. It's like fighting fire with fire. It's like smash. It's like repress. It's stop. And people do have that impulse. When evil arises, like I was up in Vancouver this weekend, I was talking about becoming intimate with evil as a way of disarming it. Someone said, well, how about just stopping it? And I mentioned that that is kind of, if really you want it to not be around anymore, the last resort is just stop it, just crush it. But the less manipulative you can be, and that's sort of like this example of using a smaller wedge, you can use a lesser evil to get rid of the big evil. okay, is somewhat of an improvement.

[40:59]

And then you keep using lesser and lesser evils to get rid of, you know, keep reducing, gradually reduce until you're practically doing nothing to get rid of the evil. You're almost like, just kind of like going, well, hi, you know, and just drops away. Or, thank you, boop. But if you can like do nothing, but just be there with it, you know, just give it your full attention and devotion and not be into And knowing that you cannot control evil. That it is, if you excuse me for quoting somebody else, an indestructible principality of the devil. You can never destroy evil. Evil cannot be destroyed. Nothing can be destroyed. Everything changes. Everything is impermanent. And so is good. You can't destroy good. You can't destroy evil. You have to live with these things. But if you live lovingly with evil... it is disarmed. And loving something is not manipulating it.

[42:02]

So, I would say this little wedge, little plug for a big peg, it's a minor, it's not very loving. But again, Buddha sometimes taught ways that weren't very loving because apparently he had some real heavy-duty disciples who just weren't ready for something so loving as, like, just like some of his other teachings were, just let the thing be the thing. That's like the fourth one of those. Yeah. It's like practicing with it. But I think it's really funny that, like, because these are supposed to be, like, evolutionary. Yes. Right? So, like, what's the first one? I think the first one is the carpenter's one, isn't it? Where they use the smaller bag, the first snake that you go to. And then the fourth one is practicing with it, treating it like as though it were your colon. And I think that's really funny that it's the fourth one, and then the fifth one is like smash it with a hammer.

[43:05]

Well, you know, it isn't necessarily that progression. I've heard other presentations where the last one, and where they say, you know, that's just only if that's the last resort is the smash one. And the first one is the more subtle one. For example, in some ways, it's not necessarily manipulative to practice loving kindness with ill will. You don't have to see that as manipulative. You can just see it as an antidote. You don't have to have the loving kindness be to manipulate the ill will. You can just like to practice loving kindness. You don't have to see it as a manipulation. You can just say, oh, ill will, that reminds me of something I like to do. Thank you. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to, I'm not trying to get rid of the ill will. I just like to practice loving kindness. Okay? And the same with when you feel like overwhelmed by greed, you say, oh, thanks for the, thank you, I appreciate, thank you. You practice detachment and renunciation. It's just a reminder. You just say, you just appreciate the reminder.

[44:06]

You don't do it to manipulate it, but in fact, it does antidote it. So you can do these things very lightly, but if somehow, I think the Buddha does sometimes suggest, or we are told that he suggested, that when things really get bad, sometimes you can be heavy-handed. But this is a big question. And I don't know, although he said that, I kind of don't agree. I'm kind of like, Having a problem with this, whether, you know, injury can be done for so-called a good, whether you can injure for good, to help. It's a hard one, you know? Yeah? It's occurring to me that being heavy-handed like that might suggest that a person who was having that much trouble dealing with evil was not taking up enough space to if this makes any sense, and there's a way whereby becoming more aggressive, the person fills out the space and meets the evil, or whatever it is, it's actually meeting it.

[45:10]

Right. Well, the way I've been talking about it lately is, oftentimes when there's aggressive, when there's disturbing aggressive energy or violence, I feel it's because you're not making a big enough container for it. Could that be the flip of the other coin? Pardon? I think so, yeah. I'm saying if you make a big container for violence and aggressive energy and hate, then it doesn't, like, that disarms it. It just makes another ingredient in the soup of life. And then it can be part of the creative process. But if you squish down too small and then the violence gets outside the container, then it goes, like, running all over the place doing this. Then it becomes an... You're saying that... You're saying that you can't... They're just talking about crushing. Well, you're like crushing a certain state. It's temporary. It's temporary, yeah, definitely.

[46:11]

It's temporary. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good example of you use the voice to shut the echo up. But the voice that you shut the echo up is the source of the echo. So the thing that crushes the ill will, whatever it is, that's the very source of that thing. So how can it ever work? I think it just works temporarily. And it sometimes encourages people a little bit. It gives them a little encouragement that they can shut some of their stuff up for a little while. And it's also saying, well, you don't just let that stuff just run around and cause trouble. So it's possible that some benefit of it might be that you might make a container for it by enacting that kind of repression.

[47:19]

It might be a step towards building a container. It's possible. You might see the beneficial effect. You might see some beneficial effect. Of what? From the pressing. Yeah, you might. Yeah, and then that might encourage you. And then maybe next time you have to crush it so hard. Yeah, right. Yes. Yes. I guess I'm wondering if your idea of it is as an entity that just sort of exists in and out of beings, or if you sort of see it as a protective kind of natural reaction to protect oneself. No. What I mean by evil is harm.

[48:21]

Harm to life. That's what I mean by evil. I guess I'm wondering, my question is more, what makes evil bad? What makes it arise? Well... There's many different kinds of evil, and each kind of evil has a different story, a different history, a different dependable arising. So one story of evil is evil arises from having a living being that is self-centered. And then if anything seems to threaten the welfare of that self, then that being can do things that are harmful to whatever they sense is threatening them. They think it's protection, right. What? What? Well, you might want to, instead of protecting, you might want to, like, enhance your position.

[49:27]

You might want to, like, take over the area. That's a reaction to you. I thought, I was asking... Pardon? That sounds like that's a... No, no. It's a question. What's that? I would call it a question. Yeah, you want to spread, you want to consume everything around, you want to be, you know, a kind of Napoleonic expansion. Same, walking to Kuwait. Or you could just be confused. Just, you know, kind of like, you have nothing better to do. Kind of bored, sleepy, something to entertain you. And then that jazzes things up a little bit. little harm, it's kind of exciting to sleepy people. So that's one of the dangers of not taking care of how you deal with things, is that if you don't take care of them, one of the things that can come over you is drowsiness, and then in order to bring yourself out of drowsiness, you do various things to arouse yourself, which can harm you and others.

[50:33]

Now this story is about, there's a dynamic in this story. which is somewhat related to this introduction. Yes? Is evil an objective force in the universe, to such a point that one could not say that there is a devil? Is evil an objective force? Yes. What do you mean by objective? Something that exists in the universe, and because we're part of it, it comes through us. Do you mean by objective something that's part of the universe? Yeah. Do you mean like good is part of the universe? Would you ask if good is a part of the universe? Yes. Would you ask if you were part of the universe? Yes. Yeah, well, evil's like that. Evil's like you and me and good and Fred. It's something that appears in the universe, right? It's just like that. And Fred cannot be destroyed.

[51:38]

You cannot be destroyed. Evil cannot be destroyed. Good cannot be destroyed. Things just change. That's all. You can't get rid of anything, and you can't get anything. There's nothing to get, there's nothing to take, there's nothing to get rid of. But, if we can make space for everything, and honor everything, then I think we've got the Buddha way on the way. Okay? Okay? It's like a color. Yeah. Evil is like a color. A certain kind of color. And when there's a color in your life, if you ignore it, you're going to have unwholesome states take over your life, at least for a moment.

[52:43]

If you try to control it, If you try to use it, try to exploit it, try to deny it, try to change it, anything you try to manipulate it, trouble. But to be attentive to it just as it is, and to really respect it as it appears, as it's appearing, not only do unwholesome states not come rushing in, But then, if you continue that practice with the events, not only do you protect yourself from unwholesome states, but you start to open yourself up to the nature of the phenomena which you're loving. So, first of all, if you love what's happening and you take care of what's happening and you're attentive to what's happening without manipulating, first of all, you're protected from unwholesome states arising. Then, not only do you have these unwholesome states not bugging you and disturbing you, but you can continue that practice uninterrupted by unwholesomeness and your vision gets clearer and you continue the same practice but now you're less hassled, so your vision goes deeper and you start to see the nature, the dependently co-arisen nature of the thing which you weren't messing with.

[53:59]

When you see that, then you can start to work in light of this interdependence that you're starting to sense. And then you start to enact the truth which has been revealed to you because of your devotion to whatever you're experiencing. So you're devoted to what you're experiencing, you're not trying to control what you're experiencing. And you're rewarded for that by revelation of the nature of your experience. And then you can participate with the nature of your experience and you and your experience start to enact the reality which has been revealed. Yes? Yes? Is it unwholesome state? Yes, it is. Huh? Yeah, it is. Being tired, however, is not unwholesome state. Being tired is a sign that you should rest so that you can be more enthusiastic.

[55:05]

But drowsiness is what you feel when you have been messing around with your experience. That's what I mean by the unwholesome drowsiness. And that, of course, if you just leave that alone, then you're okay. But if you mess with that, then of course you start agitating yourself and get into greed and stuff like that, or hate. Or go to sleep so you can dream and have a nice dream. But being tired is not necessarily the same as drowsiness. You can be alert when you're tired. I think some of you probably know about that, right? In sesshin sometimes you're very tired and you're very alert. There's various ways that you wind up being alert when you're in sesshin, but anyways, different people are alert when they're tired in sesshin.

[56:07]

Somehow they're just, like we sometimes say, the clarity gets into your bones. And you're awake, right in the middle of the drowsiness. And still, it doesn't mean you shouldn't rest. Maybe you should, actually, because you might be able to actually be even more alert if you're rested. But it's not to rest as a way of messing with your drowsiness. It's just a reasonable response. It's like the parallel would be, you eat when you're hungry, you don't eat to satisfy desires. which eating doesn't satisfy. You don't eat to overcome your sense of missing something, which it doesn't do. You eat because you're salivating. It's time to eat. And sometimes it's time to sleep. And after eating properly and sleeping properly, you haven't

[57:08]

You haven't, like, taken anything. You've just received what's appropriate to your body. You haven't intoxicated yourself with the food. You weren't intending to manipulate yourself. You were just responding in accord with, you know, with the kind of co-arising of your hunger. How do you distinguish between responding to conditions and... How do you, well, do you say how do you distinguish? How do you distinguish? Well, if I'm looking at something, paying attention to it, and I feel devoted to it, and I feel like I'm not trying to manipulate it, that seems one way, and I can have another feeling where I actually don't feel devoted. I don't. and where I want to manipulate. So that seems pretty easy. We can have more difficult cases, but there are simple cases like that where I... Now, if you're wondering how can I be sure that I'm really devoted and I'm really not manipulative, well, I think to try to be sure would be kind of manipulative.

[58:17]

If I wasn't sure, I would just be loving with that unsureness, and I wouldn't try to manipulate myself out of being unsure. I would say, okay, I'm unsure. Maybe I'm, like, kidding myself. Okay, fine. You could even have a little discussion group about it, but not with the intention of manipulating yourself, but just of studying. So, you know, whatever it is, whatever it is, it deserves your utmost respect. And I don't think it's respectful to manipulate things. I don't think it's respectful to manipulate your internal states or the external beings that you meet. And again, we have trouble with that when the external being is really suffering a lot or hurting people and things like that. Then it's hard. Then we think, okay, time for a little bit of fascism here. This is okay in this case.

[59:23]

Clamp down on this state of mind. Bust this state of mind. Bust this person. Or actually, I'm a Buddhist, so I won't do that, but I'll get somebody else to bust him. So there is a time to not expand the circle. What do you mean by there is a time not to expand the circle? Well, because ultimately what happens in the universe is happening. Yes, right. So, in the end, you could just make yourself as big as the universe. Yes. But you have decided that, you know, these 500 people have to be saved or I'm going to kill somebody. In other words, I'm going to stop that sphere growing. Yes. Right here. Kill this guy. Yes. And that's okay. Okay? Not exactly okay. In the case of, again, the Buddha's past life, it wasn't exactly okay. It was more like he had to do it.

[60:24]

it was required of him to do what he felt was most beneficial in that situation. In other words, the Buddha felt that to stop that person from murdering 500 people or 499 people was to protect that person and to protect the other, but mostly to protect the murderer. To be killed isn't as bad as to kill somebody. I mean, for me to be killed is not as bad for me as for you to kill me. So a bodhisattva would protect you from killing me, would stop you from killing me to help you. Your spiritual protection would be huge. Mine would be, he'd be protecting me in the sense of keeping me alive a little longer so I would have a chance to practice some more. But he would be protecting you from wasting your opportunity. So a bodhisattva would try to protect you, stop you from doing something like that. even though bodhisattvas cannot interfere with other people's karma.

[61:31]

And it's not manipulative that they would do that. They would not be manipulating you. And how wouldn't they be manipulating? Because they would be loving the murderer, respecting the murderer, not wanting to manipulate the murderer. That's the basic attitude, right? And the hand would reach out from that place and stop them. But you cannot stop the other person's karma. You can't stop other people's... I don't think you can stop other people's karma, but what you can show other people is love. And when you show other people love, that converts their mind, and then their karma changes. But you don't intervene with their karma because they have to do that.

[62:36]

They have to do their karma. That's the only way they learn. That's not the only way they learn. They also learn by teachings that come their way. In this case, this is the sort of karma that a bodhisattva wouldn't want someone to learn from now? Oh, you mean learn from that mistake? The kind of karma of killing 500 people. No, if they did kill 500 people, you would want them to learn from it. And they would learn something from it. But in this case, the Buddha in his previous life did that. In some other cases, the Buddha might not have done that. He didn't do that every single time that something like that happened. He wasn't spending all his time stopping murders. And sometimes when he was a Buddha even, he didn't spend his time doing that necessarily. He just met each person with his teachings.

[63:38]

But sometimes people didn't pay attention to him. Sometimes even the Buddha was unsuccessful in converting a being. I remember when Suzuki Roshi was alive, I used to be surprised. In the short run, I used to be surprised how many people overlooked him. I used to watch people and say, my God, that person is just totally ignoring him. Here this nice teacher is giving this person all that attention and they're just walking off. I couldn't believe it. Now, all you people would say, geez, what a waste. I would be happy to spend some time with Sri Sri Yukteswar. And somebody turned him down? Wow. Maybe they didn't know how famous he was going to be later. But that actually happened. Some students he was trying to reach and offered himself to them, and they had better things to do. And I think it's possible Shakyamuni Buddha, you know, some people would overlook him. Actually, some people didn't like him. But you do your best, right?

[64:43]

Yes? So in context of what you're saying, you just said that if you were sick and you wanted to get well and you had to do something to get well, you would, to be correct about it, you would first have to be okay about being sick and not fighting it or accept that. before meddling with it by going out to do something about it. Are you saying that first you'd accept it without meddling with it? Is that what you said? Well, I'm saying that if you didn't accept it and you went out to do something about it, it would be like meddling with it, right? Well, definitely. Is that right? Well, of course. I mean, you just said it was. Of course it would be meddling. But it would also be meddling fairly ineffectively because you wouldn't even know what you're meddling with. So you're meddling, you'd be meddling with sort of maybe somebody else's sickness or something, because you wouldn't even know what yours was. So yeah, if you didn't even figure out what you had before you started meddling, that would really be foolish. Well, you said you didn't accept it.

[65:53]

You can't know what you had before you accept it. So, I mean... Oh, not normally the way you think about it, yeah, I know, I know, I know. But I'm saying the way people normally think about things is not necessarily right. So, yeah, so I'm saying if you don't accept what you've got, you don't know what you have. That's what I'm saying. Some people go off to fix something that they haven't checked to see what they've got yet and it's not even there. You know? It's like, what is it, you know, like, you know, on Saturday, you have, you plan on Saturday, okay, Saturday, it's got the day off, you know, I'm going to do some shopping, I'm going to get some shoelaces and stuff like that, you know? But you already have a lot of shoelaces. And not only that, but you forget on Saturday to go buy them.

[66:56]

Terrible? Yeah, it's a terrible situation. Anyway, I'm suggesting that what I'm saying to you is that the way I'm talking about things is not the normal way of talking about things. The normal way of talking about things is that you can control things. That's what people are into, a lot of people are into, is control things. We almost went to war recently about controlling somebody, right? We're going to control something. Of course, quite a few people realized that we weren't going to control anything. And it was nice that we didn't actually try to control that much, because we wouldn't have been able to. And it was really nice that we didn't try to control what we couldn't have been able to control. But some people actually thought we would be able to control. But a lot of people, a lot of intelligent people in powerful positions said, this is not going to control anything. This is going to drop some bombs, but it's not going to control anybody. I don't think myself, really, we can control things.

[68:04]

Now, I know there's a conventional world But even in the conventional world, it seems like a lot of people in the conventional world are also realizing you can't control things. What I'm suggesting is that we be devoted to what we can't control. So, for example, your health is something you can't control. I don't think you can control your health. I haven't been able to control mine, and I haven't met anybody else that can control hers. I haven't seen anybody so far that can do that. Have you? No. And, huh? I know a lot of people who think they're controlling their health. Oh, yeah, I know. I know people who think they're controlling their health, but I haven't actually seen anybody like that myself. I see people who are doing really well with a body and mind that's not in control. And I see some other people who are really having a rough time with a body and mind that's not in control. And the people who seem to be happiest are those who are devoted to what they see as an out-of-control situation.

[69:10]

Those seem to be the healthy, happy people. That's my view. That's what I've seen. And not only that, but within those who realize they're dealing with a situation that's not under control, those who deal with the situation lovingly among that group are the more healthy. And the people who think that things can be controlled and then try to When you try to control... First of all, to think they're controlling, I think, is really sick already. But then to try to control things is really cruel because things aren't asking to be controlled. Not really. Yes? But there could be such a thing as a medical treatment that wouldn't be meddling. There can be anything that wouldn't be meddling. Anything... You know, this could be not meddling. This could be not meddling. This could not be meddling. Everything could not be, all actions could not be meddling.

[70:13]

Even maybe cutting a cat could be not meddling, but not very often is what is seen as cruelty not meddling, but it could be under some circumstances. This story is about a potential situation where you might have seen some meddling in this story, Case 57. It might look like meddling. I don't think it's meddling. But anyway, I think that meddling means that the thing's over there and you're going to do something to it to control it and make it different, rather than you appreciate your relationship with this thing and you celebrate the relationship by touching it. by speaking, by giving, by receiving. You don't take, you don't push to change. You're in a relationship that's interdependent. And your respect for the other being is an example of how you understand interdependence. Your love for them and your attention to them, and particularly your attention to that part of them which is uncontrollable,

[71:23]

and out of control. That's where your love is best applied. The area where you think it's under control, you know, it doesn't need your attention. But you do need to pay attention to the delusion that you think something's under control. I would say the exception to being under control, or one way that things are under control, is that everything is under control of the entire universe. In that sense, things are under control. But from the ordinary point of view, when you look at something that's under control of the entire universe, it looks out of control from the limited point of view. Because we can't see what's controlling it. You look depressed again. What's happening? Are you in deep thought?

[72:26]

So, I feel a little depressed, and my feeling is that you can speak interestingly and illuminatingly on any topic, And if anybody in the room asks you any question about anything, you will respond respectfully and speak interestingly and illuminatingly about it. And that is not without value. And also, on the other hand, that there is some particular there's some particular opportunity provided by the structure of these various cases to present certain kinds of teaching that when people in the room keep asking you questions, you know, that are arising spontaneously, they're not important, but kind of makes it not possible to talk about the structure of the case and proceed with that teaching

[73:34]

And I think in some ways, I feel like I come here for that. So not that the other isn't interesting, but specifically, I feel very committed to working on this teaching at this time on Monday. And I'd like that to happen. Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to alleviate my depression by asking my fellow classmates to consider whether they want to devote this particular time on Monday evenings to discussing the Dharma through the vehicle of the structure of the cases. And if so, then... to let that happen by not bringing forward as much material that just arises spontaneously about other topics. Okay, so in other words, you would like us to concentrate more on the case. Well... Yes.

[74:43]

And you'd like to know if other people would be willing to do that a little bit more than we did tonight. Because we weren't, we didn't focus much, although I mentioned several times that this had to do with the case. So is that okay with people if we do that more? Yes. Yes. Yes? I was, I was feeling similar frustration and then I, I decided to, I assumed that maybe there's something about this case that made people very nervous. and that this was all about settling into the case somehow, that whatever this is has to be expressed in order to be able to settle into a very provocative case. That's what I was guessing. So anyway, I guess I appreciate what you said, and it sounds like most people would support the suggestion. It doesn't get too real, the story. I really like the little steps out.

[75:47]

It's all the same thing. Yeah, to me. It's all the same thing, yes, but partly Stuart would like to... He's saying he would like to do the case part of all the same thing. The jiao-jiao, the jiao-jiao, yang-yang part of all the same. Right? Yeah, if we come at it that way, we might see something that we weren't already thinking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Many people didn't have this case during the week, so there always have been one. Okay. So anyway, we just have a few seconds here. Let's do it to the case now. Okay, so this is something you can work on this week. This venerable Yan Yan says to Zhao Zhou, when not a single thing is brought in or brought, then what?

[76:54]

Okay, so that's the first line, right? Now I have a question for you about that. What do you think? Is he sort of bringing that in? Yeah. Okay? Is he bringing that in? If so, then he's going to get whacked. Right? Which is exactly what happened in the next line. He's talking about not bringing something in, but he just brought something in. Okay? So then his teacher says, don't bring something in. Don't bring something in about not bringing something in. In other words, put it down. Don't just talk about not bringing something in. Put it down. And stop that. So then he says this other thing, right? Tries it again. You see, he tries it again. If I don't bring it in, bring a single thing in, what should I put down?

[77:55]

And then he says, you know, when this translation says, then carry it off. In other words, I told you to put it down. Okay, if you won't put it down, then take it away. Or if you won't take it away, throw it out. Or if you won't throw it out, lay an egg. Just stop this. Okay? Or another translation is of the last comment where he says, then carry it off, is, I see you're not going to put it down. You're just not going to... Here you are, come and talk to me. You're having a great job, Joe. You ask me about this thing, I tell you to stop it. Then you ask me again, tell me to say, well, I can't stop it because, you know, I didn't do anything. Stop it! Or you're just not going to listen to me, are you? Even though I'm the great master, you're not going to listen to me, are you? Anyway, in some sense, that's a real simple version of the story. And the line which is missing in the story is he was... Yang Yang was greatly awakened on that.

[78:57]

So, here's your homework, right? Are you bringing something in moment by moment? Don't go around asking people what it's like if you don't bring it in. Just ask yourself, are you bringing something in? And if you are, you know, admit it. And then put it down. And if you won't put it down, then admit that you're not going to put it down. And you're just defying this practice because you think it's, you know, I don't know what. You don't believe love. You're going to do power. You're going to bring your stuff in and do your thing. But check it out. See if you want to practice this way. One week. Just try it for one week. Try not bringing anything in. Try not bringing anything into the room. Try not bringing anything into your car. Try not bringing anything into the moment. Just try it. Just try it. Just put everything down. Okay? And then we can study this case next week. And I'm really sorry that I'm such a bad boy.

[79:58]

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