Happy summertime to you. Are you ready for summer? Today I would like to talk about the Bodhisattva vow and the interdependent self. How many people are not familiar with the bodhisattva vow? If you raise your hands. Okay, bodhisattva vow is the vow, the wish, the desire, the warm desire, the hot desire to live a life of dedication

[01:10]

to the welfare of all beings, to the greatest welfare for all beings, before oneself. This is the Bodhisattva vow, that kind of desire. Can you hear me okay? No? Could you turn it up, please? Should I say that again in the back, for the people in the back? Yes? Bodhisattva vow is the desire to live a life devoted to the realization of the greatest welfare for all beings before oneself. That is the core, that is the heart of the Zen path, that desire. sometimes called the altruistic aspiration for enlightenment.

[02:18]

Okay? Does that make sense? That's the bodhisattva vow. And this bodhisattva vow is intimately united with an interdependent self. Now, a subtitle, an alternative title for my talk could be, Selfish Aspiration for Personal Benefit, The Vow to Attain the Greatest Possible Good for Oneself Before Others and Its Close Relationship with the Independent Self. So the interdependent self is a self that works with this Bodhisattva vow and the independent self works with the constant endeavor to realize the greatest possible welfare for oneself ahead of others.

[03:34]

If they come along at the same time that might be all right, but definitely not before me. The practice of Zen then is to how to develop and realize the Bodhisattva vow but also how to develop and realize or realize and develop this interdependent self and how to let go of the independent self. One time a year ago I was at Esalen Institute talking about the Bodhisattva vow. of benefiting others before oneself, and the people there are pretty sophisticated, so they said, well that's not going to work because, you know, you've got to take care of yourself first.

[04:38]

And in a way, you know, there's some truth in that, because in order to understand the interdependent self, which is so wonderful, so blissful, so happy. A life where you actually want to help other people before yourself is so happy, so free, so, you know, I could go on, well, you know, forever about how wonderful the mind, which understands the interdependent of ourself and others. But before we realize that mind, or as part of realizing that mind, we have to turn around and look at this well-established sense of independent selfhood, we have to study, examine, and learn all about this sense that we're independent.

[05:47]

Most of us act from this sense of our independence, but we don't look at it much. We just go about taking care of what we think is this independent self, but we don't actually look to see, well, what is this independent self? So we say in Zen that the study of the way of the Buddha, the study of the way of benefiting all beings is the study of the self. And first of all, it is the study of the independent self, the isolated independent operator. Are you following this talk? Is it kind of simple? No? Anyway, there's a problem here right away because when you turn around and look at the to look for this independent self, it turns out, it is the case right now, that the independent self is surrounded by pain and anxiety and probably quite a bit of fear.

[07:06]

So it's kind of hard to look at it because when you look at it you happen to notice that this anxiety all around it, and pain all around it. Because this independent self is built on the delusion of the real existence of our independence. And the universe is always saying, oh yeah? Really? Well, how about this? And take that. You still think so now? Come on, let go. Of course, when it says that to us, we hang on all the tighter. Sometimes the universe says, please let go. Please don't be selfish. But the point is that, please don't be selfish is not necessarily going to work. Maybe the thing that works better is, please admit you're selfish. Please turn around and look at how selfish we are. Our practice, the formal practice and the informal practice of Zen is called studying the self.

[08:19]

It's called to be upright and settle the self, the small self, settle the small self, settle the independent sense of self onto the independent sense of self. Settle the self on the self and by settling the self on the self you will forget the self. The practice of Zen meditation is to admit our selfishness and to settle our selfishness right on top of our selfishness and forget our selfishness and be free with all beings in that self-centered forgetfulness or forgetfulness of self-centeredness. But again, it's difficult to do because in order to settle the self in the self you have to admit this greasy little thing, this slimy little selfish thing.

[09:26]

And not only is it embarrassing but it's got all this negative energy around it because it's fighting against reality of interconnectedness and it can't help it. It's part of our deal that we do this. Based on this sense of independence, we think that we can do things independently. We think that we can act by our own power, that we can breathe by our own power, that we can think by our own power, and that we think our own thoughts, that we can eat by our own power, that we can sleep by our own power, that we can walk and talk and do a lot of things by our own personal power.

[10:29]

This attitude is called Well, yeah, this attitude is the basis of what we call karma or action, personal action. Human beings, generally speaking, are into this way of living. I do this, I do that, you do this, you do that. This is the world of karma and it creates a world of suffering that you're well aware Zen meditation is not another kind of karma. It's not another thing you do, now on top of all the other things you do, which is going to fix up what you do. Zen meditation will cure you of this disease, this self-centered disease of the karmic mind. It will cure you, but not by being another kind of karma, but by simply

[11:34]

turning around and looking at the world where you think you do karma. So meditation on karma is not another kind of karma. Unless you think, oh, I do the meditation on karma. But that's extra. Just the awareness of karmic activity, just the awareness of how we think that we can do things on our own, that awareness is not karmic. That study of how we create the world of illusion. That study is not karma. That study is simply the way things are or the way things appear to be. So what's required is two things. One is to face this illusory sense of self and to face that we think it's true and that we're very deluded about the self, and see all the pain around it, and see the fear we have around it, and then even the watching of it, or the study of it, make that something that we don't see that we do, understand that we don't do that.

[12:51]

And this is how we will realize the mind of interdependence, the interdependent self. In order to do this practice, of course, in case you haven't occurred to yet, we're going to have to develop a lot of patience. Patience. Because we have to be patient with the pain that surrounds self-study, that surrounds this little tight self. So painful that we have to be able to be patient with it. And patience means we have to find a way to be comfortable with the pain. Of course, the pain is still there, but we're as comfortable, we learn to be as comfortable as we can with this anxiety. We develop the skill to open our body and mind to the experience of pain and anxiety. And we become, we can become skillful. We can become skillful at feeling this anxiety of being

[14:00]

one person. Someone sent me a poem recently by Mr. Milos and Mr. Milos says, the purpose of poetry is to remind us how difficult, how hard it is to remain just one person. We do remain just one person in a way, but mostly unconsciously, to realize how we hold this one person. To consciously notice that means you have to be patient. And this patience is the primary cause of our awakening to our interdependent self. So we all have to work on patience. We have to develop the capacity to feel the pain of being an independent person. And if we can be patient with this, we can stay steady and clear while we're watching this illusion of an independent self.

[15:16]

And while we watch and witness our self-concern and while we see the self we believe to be independent In that steadiness, we can see how it works. And if we can see how it works, we can see that it also works exactly in the opposite way it looks like it's working. We can see the other side of the story. And enlightenment is the backside of delusion. You take delusion, delusion is pretty handy. Tip it upside down, it's enlightenment. Flip it around, it's enlightenment. Take enlightenment, flip it around, it's delusion. They're pals. Enlightenment doesn't say, get this delusion out of here, yucko.

[16:21]

It doesn't. However, enlightenment has a match, has a partner. The partner says, get this delusion out of here and bring the enlightenment. That's delusion. Or delusion is even, this delusion is enlightenment. Enlightenment is, yes, that delusion is delusion. They're intimately related. There's an expression that the horse arrives before the donkey leaves. Enlightenment arrives before delusion leaves. We think, usually, enlightenment comes, delusion bye-bye. As a matter of fact, you can read that in some Buddhist texts. But the Zen teaching is that the delusion is there, the ass, the donkey is there, and enlightenment arrives before the delusion leaves. However, when enlightenment arrives, we've got a ride, and we're free.

[17:30]

of delusion, but you can't be free of delusion without delusion. However, you can be deluded without realizing enlightenment. And again, although you can be deluded without realizing enlightenment, wherever there's delusion, there is, right there, enlightenment. Enlightenment is actually never the slightest bit separate or distant from delusion. Buddha's wisdom and compassion are always right there, shining in the middle of delusion, shining in the middle of the self-centered self. the limited, isolated, independent self has enlightenment at its center. If you can stand the pain, be patient with the pain all around this self, and just face it, you'll slip in and you'll meet the self. And if you can meet the self, you'll slip in and meet the enlightened core of this illusion, and you'll realize the self is an interdependent self.

[18:40]

So to study the self, in fact, means to study anxiety. To study the self means to study fear. To study the self means to study pain. To learn what the self is means to learn what anxiety is. It means to learn what fear is. It means to learn what pain is. Who wants to do that? Well, some fool, some Bodhisattva fool, who's so, what do you call it, so overwhelmingly enthusiastic about helping all beings that she jumps into the fire of self-study. and then practices patience as she meets the anxiety and pain that's revealed in self-study and keeps remembering, oh yeah, this is supposed to happen.

[19:56]

The Buddha said this would happen. Oh yeah, all the Buddhas went through this. All the Buddhas are right now in the middle of these flames. I'm standing outside them, coming close to them, meeting them, but right on the other side of those flames, all Buddhas are sitting in the middle of those flames, turning the wheel of Dharma joyously. It's hot there, they're sweating a little, but they're also, you know, kind of cool. Not cool like, you know, not feeling pain, they're connected to all beings' pain, but they're cool, they're compassionate, they're radiant, and they're happy that they're doing their job. of turning the wheel of Dharma in the midst of the fierce flames of the suffering of all beings. The Bodhisattva, as she comes to these flames, says, oh yeah, this is supposed to happen. You don't run into them necessarily, just sit there and you'll start moving through. Just be upright and open to your experience. Watch how you think you can do things on your own.

[21:00]

Watch how you think you can talk and walk on your own. Watch how painful that is. Watch how alienating that is. Just watch it and you'll move through deeper and deeper. Just feel what it's like to be a person. Feel it completely and that's satisfying for the moment. That full feeling will protect you from running ahead or running backwards or side to side in the midst of this pain that's all around being a person. Now, not only that, but just to make sure we're not overlooking anything, if, you know, whatever you can do sort of in your own way, of feeling what it's like to be you, then over and above that, not over and above that, but as part of that, we strongly encourage in Zen practice that you express yourself, and that you express yourself to another.

[22:14]

That you express yourself, that you bring your face to another face, and you say, how do you do? This is what I think, this is how I feel. Hello. And many people, many people think, no, you really can't express yourself. I hear from so many people, well, I can't express myself at my job. They won't let me do that. Some people say, well, a Green Gulch, you can do that. People here are very open and so on. But some people who live at Green Gorge think that they can't express themselves too. That they'll get kicked out if they really would express themselves. Maybe they will. I've been almost kicked out a few times myself.

[23:22]

It's always, you know, very close. How much clothes could I take off and be allowed to stay? But we must express ourselves completely in order to understand what we think we are. And if we can see what we think we are and settle on that, we will be free of any idea of what we are. Even the idea that we're interdependent, we have to give that up too. The interdependent self doesn't even know what the interdependent self is. Because the other people's ideas of what it is is as much what it is as mine. But it's hard to express yourself. It's hard. And if you think about what will happen, you get scared.

[24:32]

And if you don't think about what will happen, you feel anxiety. All around self-expression is this challenge, saying, oh yeah. This question about whether that's going to be okay with the universe. And in a sense, if I think that I can express myself by myself, the universe, in a sense, doesn't okay it. It lets me think that way, but it doesn't say, yes, that's right. Because it's not. When I express myself, when you express yourself, really, it's the whole universe expressing itself through us. And when you understand that, the universe says, okay, that's right. And the whole universe claps for you. And you hear that. When you forget your personal power, then everything that happens confirms your, not powerlessness, but the function of the universe coming through you.

[25:39]

If you can witness this small self which thinks it can do things, and watch that carefully, you will come to see that that self receives its function, and witnessing the self as it receives its function, being settled and absorbed on the self as it receives its function, is the mind of Buddha, is the path to enlightenment. Witnessing, being absorbed and witnessing the self which receives its function, and then acting from the self which received its function, this is enlightenment. How do you find this self which is receiving this function? You watch the self which thinks it's got its function and then uses it on things. You watch that self. You admit that self, that self-power self. Suzuki Roshi talks about, you know, when you breathe, you know, in and out,

[26:51]

Your throat's like a swinging door. Between inner and outer world, the breath goes out at the throat and in at the throat. Then he also said, the self is also like a swinging door. I used to think when I first heard that was, I thought of one of those revolving doors at the department store. Is that called revolving doors? But it's not, I think, more like a saloon door or a kitchen door that swings back and forth on a pivot. The self is like that. If you push from this side on the self, that's ignorance, in a way. And then, coming from the other side, the self coming from the other side is like enlightenment, but it's the same door. It's the door that swings between inner and outer. That's the self. Or between this and that.

[27:52]

The self swings back and forth between this and that. It's the way you tell this and that. But also the self is a swinging door between delusion and enlightenment. Taking the self and pushing it out on everything is delusion. I got a self, let's use it on things. Let's do this with it, let's do that with it. Swinging back the other way is enlightenment. It's the same thing though, same self. It's very painful to watch the self that's pushing itself on everything and making the world this way and that way. Anxiety all around. The outward push is painful to look at. But if you watch the outward push very carefully, it swings back and you witness enlightenment. If you can witness delusion, you can realize enlightenment. But most people don't like to look at delusion. They just like to do it. So they push the door. They think they push the door, but they don't look carefully.

[28:53]

They just push and hear what happens when the door hits things. Oh, that was nice. Thank you. Oh, no, that wasn't good. Whatever, you know. Push, push, push, push. But every time they push, you can't push without coming back again and giving another chance to push. So it actually swings back. Delusion. Enlightenment. Delusion. Enlightenment. But if you don't watch the delusion, you don't get to see the enlightenment. If you're willing to look at how deluded you are, you can realize enlightenment. Watch the swinging door of delusion. See the returning swing of the door of enlightenment, back and forth. Dzogchen is not to prefer the enlightened side of the swing and disparage the deluded side. Dzogchen is to look at both equally. not preferring delusion over enlightenment, but understanding that they're inseparable and not preferring the bliss of enlightenment over the misery of delusion.

[29:55]

Pretty difficult not to prefer, huh? Can you see that door swinging? Which way is it swinging now? In a way, whichever way it's swinging, it's going to go the other way pretty soon. The meditation is to stay present with the self as it undulates between self and other, between this and that, between delusion and enlightenment. It goes back and forth, it also spins round and round.

[30:56]

If you can stay with the spin of the self in the midst of whatever is happening and feel the feeling, the full feeling, the full feeling of the pain of the individual self settles you right in the middle of this pivot of delusion and enlightenment. We do, we human beings do have the ability to feel fully. We have the ability to feel partially somehow, strangely. But if you can feel fully, with the aid of patience, you'll settle right into the pivot. And you'll see that self. that wonderful independent self that your mind has created and you'll be able to admit your secret love. We secretly do really love ourselves and if we don't admit that we won't

[32:03]

we won't love others. The self was saying, if you don't love me, you can't love them. We're not letting any real love out of this house until you take care of this thing. But we, generally speaking, have been told that self-love isn't good. It's selfish. Therefore, because we love ourselves so much, we hide the fact that we love ourselves so much, so that people will be nice to the self we love so much. I mean, I shouldn't say we, maybe I should say I. I know you people don't do that. But I read in a book that at least one other person did that. His name was Shakyamuni Buddha. He was embarrassed how selfish he was.

[33:07]

But to admit how selfish you are, to admit it and not run away from it, and also don't stick your head in it, but just admit how selfish you are. Admitting how selfish you are, admitting how selfish I am, that is selfless meditation. And doing a practice of meditating on how I think I can do things on my own and just watching how I think I can do things on my own is selfless meditation. Studying the self, settling the self on the self is selfless. Selfish people have better things to do than study the self. I feel like maybe I lost connection with you or something.

[34:35]

You're over, you're saturated, is that right? Is it getting kind of hot in here? The flames building up? Fire and brimstone? Should we open some doors to fan the flames? So you might get kicked out of Zen Center if you express yourself, watch out.

[35:40]

But in Zen there are many traditional stories where the student gets kicked out for not expressing herself fully. When the student first arrives, the teacher is somewhat tolerant of impartial expression. understanding that people are afraid to do that and they've been that afraid for apparently at least 3,000 years. Before that maybe they weren't, maybe they didn't know any better and they just went around and expressed themselves. But at some point along the way we started to stop expressing ourselves fully out of self-protection. not expressing yourself fully for the protection of others, I don't think that's really protecting others. I think actually we hurt others because we don't express ourselves fully.

[36:43]

Because if we don't express ourselves fully, we get mad. We feel unsatisfied. So you don't have to express yourself fully when you first arrive at Zen Center to practice, but after a few years you're wasting your time if you don't. There's certain things you can learn about yourself which you can only learn about yourself when you express yourself fully in the face of someone else who's watching with rapt attention. And that's just what we want, and also one of the most frightening things for us. So practice by yourself for a while, and when you feel like you can fully express yourself by yourself, then go meet somebody who wants to see who you trust, who mainly would have problems with your lack of full expression, not with your full expression.

[38:05]

Doesn't mean they like it. That's not the point. It doesn't mean they like the form, it means they love the fullness of the expression because they understand, the person understands that your full expression is part and parcel of your self-transcendence. So we human beings must take care of ourselves, we must love ourselves. It's our nature to maintain and preserve and protect ourself and to love it. But we also, by nature, must transcend ourselves. So while protecting ourselves and maintaining ourselves, we confess that we're protecting and maintaining ourselves and express that fully, and if we can do that, we're telling the truth and then we transcend ourselves. Admitting our selfishness to ourselves, we transcend ourselves somewhat. Admitting our selfishness to others, fully, completes our self-transcendence. It's not that we get others to admit that they're selfish.

[39:19]

We express our own selfishness as an encouragement. And we allow that self-expression in the midst of fully feeling what it's like to be a self, a limited self. We feel the pain of our isolated independent existence and we express that pain and we take care of that pain and we become free of that pain with everybody else. We admit that karma and we become free of that karma. Maybe that's enough.

[40:48]

Is it? Okay. So now we sing a song, right? For me, this is kind of a summer song. I first saw it in the summer with my cousin on a hot summer night in about 1950 or something. Sounds like a long time ago, doesn't it?

[41:54]

46 years ago, I was going to movies with my cousin. Isn't that amazing? And this guy was singing, this is a guy singing a song, I think a guy, maybe it's not, maybe it's a girl. I can't remember now. But somehow I see somebody standing on top of a hill and the hill is covered with daffodils and it's sunny. And there's happiness all over the place. And here's how the song goes, and I don't know what key it is. Once I had a secret love That lived inside the heart of me All too soon that secret love Became impatient to be free So I told a friendly star The way that dreamers often do

[43:08]

Just how wonderful you are and why I'm so in love with you. Now I shouted from the highest hill, Even told the golden daffodils. Now my heart's an open door. Swinging. And my secret love's no secret anymore. Doris Day? Doris Day. So practice with awareness of this sense of deep resistance to the others, and the pain of that resistance.

[44:32]

And if you can face that pain of that resistance, that facing it is not resistance. So face the wanting to push it away. So you don't lean into it or push it, you face it, you uprightly face it. And then you... I often use... I like to use the image of the wind bell, of a wind chime hanging in the air, okay? So, when the wind blows on the wind chime, it moves. It doesn't care what direction the wind blows, it moves accordingly and harmoniously. So there you are, like a wind chime, and when certain things happen, Your resistance is actually a kind of movement. Certain things happen and you resist. That's a kind of movement to a certain kind of thing. You don't... You actually do respond. You can feel that response from resistance. And some other things you feel attracted to. Another kind of thing.

[45:34]

And judgment and pain. Other things you feel attracted to. Another kind of thing. And judgment. pain, all these things move you and you can feel the movement and the response that you make to all phenomena, then pretty much gradually a kind of presence, which is this responding, this constant responding. You develop a sense for that presence, which is there through all the different influences. You're just present and upright and also that you're flexible and you move and you're harmonized with the circumstances. including harmonizing with circumstances of resistance and pain, and positive and negative judgments. Those are the winds that blow on us, the winds of our mind blowing on us. But the way we respond to it, the presence of the way we respond, something is always there responding.

[46:41]

So, you know, one of my favorite stories, which I often use to also describe the function of the wind bell, is the story of a monk was sweeping the ground, and his brother came up to him and said, you're too busy. And he said, you should know that one is not busy. And then the first monk said, well, then are there two moons? to reality, and the first monk raised the broom and said, which moon is this? So when you're switching the ground, you know, or when you're responding to circumstances, like the wind bell, whatever happens, unless there's no wind, and even no wind is responded by not moving, okay? And as soon as there's a wind, it moves with the wind, maybe. And then the wind stops and it swings back. The wind blows from another direction, it moves. the circumstances.

[47:55]

So it's a pretty busy wind bell. Even when it's not moving, it's responding. It's responding to no wind and gravity. It's constantly responding to wind and gravity and its nature, its material. Always responding, always responding, always responding. What it is, is a constant tuning in of the influences of the world at that point. It shows through its music many, many things. So it's very busy, all the time, and yet, there's something there that's not busy at all, there's just a constant, unchanging presence of responsiveness. So there's two truths. One truth is you're constantly responding, the other is you're constantly present and not doing anything at all, really. And which Yes.

[48:58]

So, how do we balance expressing ourselves and coming back to expressing ourselves causing pain to others? How do you balance it? Well, again, by practice, okay? Like you just expressed yourself, all right? Now, I might have told you, or you might have thought beforehand, I wonder if this will hurt anybody if I stand up and say this. You might have thought that, okay? You might not have thought that. Let's say you did think that. So you might have said, well, I think I'll raise my hand and ask if anybody would mind if I express myself. You might ask, because you might be not sure. You might ask, and we say, does anybody mind if he expresses himself? No. OK, so you check, you find out it's OK. You want to express yourself now? Go ahead. You want to? OK, I'll go ahead. our sexuality, our sexual genes, but often the act involves a lot of persons, and beforehand we cannot know what kind of pain it's going to cause.

[50:09]

So to express our sexuality, you're trying to... how do you express that? Well, it's very similar to what we just did. Yeah, you ask. You can ask. But sometimes that was not easy to answer. But again, the windmill's there, okay? You're there, and you ask. When you ask something, you know, you get a response. The response is not necessarily the answer. It's just, well, what do you want to do now? Shall we, may I touch you? And the answer might be, yes. But that might not really be an answer, that's just sort of like a response. You know, you get a response, you ask a question, you get a response. The answer is, well, how may I touch you? Please tell me how I may touch you. And then you touch, and the person says, Oh, actually I don't like that, change my mind. And the person might say, Oh, go wash your hands. And you might say, I don't want to. And the person might say, Well, then don't touch me.

[51:10]

So in this way, you know, sexual energy is something that can be used like a window. It's not necessarily something that can be used like a car or a tractor. It's something to be used as a surface for responding. Not like an answer. You never really know. And then if finally you try this way of checking back and forth, how is that for you? How is this for you? How is this for me? This is how it is for me. How is this for me? Back and forth. Maybe you still find out that you hurt me. Then you learn something. Well, how did I hurt you? And then if you learn, maybe you change. But if we all edit ourselves, like I used to try to edit myself, because I noticed that pretty much whatever I did ... I tried to edit myself, you know? But I realized people were still afraid of when I was going to act.

[52:11]

You know? When's he going to do it? So editing yourself, then you're just yourself. Editing, editing, editing. When's he going to do it? So then I look at it a different way. I express myself. Also, usually when I edited myself, I edited the things people didn't mind, and didn't edit the things they did mind. So now I let other people edit me, pretty much. Except when they've already told me they don't like certain things. When they've already told me, those things I'm very careful about. And I check, can I do it now? Is it OK now? No, no, I'm still not okay. But, mostly I just express myself, but I also ask, and I ask you too, please give me feedback. Tell me if I offend you, tell me how it is when I express myself. Do you want, is certain things difficult for you, are certain things painful for you? Tell me about it, I want to hear. If I move my arms, you know, like this, you know, maybe, maybe Cindy doesn't like me when my hands are close to her head.

[53:16]

So I ask you, please tell me, is that okay? But if I move too close, I'd like you to tell me. Then when she tells me that she doesn't like it, then in the future, it's not, I don't have to edit myself, I just, it's not editing, I know she doesn't want this, but it's moving a different way. Editing means something different, you know? Once I get your feedback, it's not editing anymore. If you don't want me to talk, it's not editing for me to stop. Just be quiet, if you ask me to be quiet. It's not like trying to second-guess. I don't want to second-guess. It doesn't work. I'm really lousy at second-guessing. Even first-guessing. I'm not too good at it. I can read other people's minds about what they're doing, but I can't read other people's minds about what they want me to do. So I'm not into assumptions and guessing. It's actually quite interesting. if you think about what they're going to do. And even when they do it, there's certain... there's some anxiety.

[54:19]

But that's what I would suggest. Okay? And still, sometimes we're... I'm afraid we're going to hurt people, and they're going to hurt us. But that's part of how we learn how to relate. The question is, are we acting with disregard for their pain, and wanting to hurt? If so, we should acknowledge that and be careful of both of those. If we sincerely want to really be intimate with people, that's very difficult, very scary, and there's a lot of pain involved. That's normal. Yeah.

[55:28]

Well, that's the way it is for that moment, but that's not the end of the story. Actually, for me, just me existing in this world, just me here existing. and I can tie myself up, you know, and try not to express myself, but they still think, what happens if he gets really mad? I've tried it. If you express yourself and I express myself in any way, It hurts to see somebody doing what they'd like to do. And if they won't let themselves do something, and they see someone else doing something that they would like to do, it's painful.

[56:29]

And also they don't want that person to do it anymore. They want to stop that person so their pain will go away, so they won't have to think about what they're not letting themselves do. Or what they feel the world won't let them do. Either way. This is painful to work yourself. But if I express myself and it hurts people, then I also is they feel pain at what I do. I can also feel the pain of... I can feel their pain at me being me. And I do feel quite a bit of pain that people have with me being me. I do. And I'm sorry for that. But I have no choice, because if I back off of what I'm doing to hurt you, then I hurt somebody else by backing off. Plus, you don't really think I'm going to stay that far. You're going to let me interfere when I come back. It's really a difficult situation. It's really difficult. Okay? When I got my name from my teacher, you know, my name, my Buddhist name, Ten-Shin. When Suzuki Roshi gave me that name, he said, Ten-Shin means Rev is Rev. And people will have a problem with that. But you have no choice.

[57:33]

You must be this way. And people must learn about this. This is the way. And that's the same for all of you. I share my name with you, okay? People may have trouble with you being here, but there's no way to avoid it. And it's going to be difficult. Even if you withdraw from that, it's going to be difficult. If you express it, it's going to be difficult. The point is that withdrawing from it, at least temporarily, is not the path to enlightenment. It's the path of denial and unconsciousness. The path of expressing yourself is the path of awareness and pain. The path of denial is also pain, but you don't feel it. So you become darker and deader and darker and deader. But the more you express yourself, the more alive you become, the closer death comes to you. When you're really alive, death is very close. When you're very dead, life is far away.

[58:34]

But really, you don't have to try to be dead. Try to be alive. But to send your growing, new, newly expressed, fresh self, and fresh life right out there, to meet the death, it's not easy. It's just, recommend it. And I welcome it. You might frighten me if you do, that's my problem. I still welcome it. I need it. I need it. If you won't do it, I won't do it. It's harder for me to do it.

[59:41]

You do it, then we'll both copy something. Yes? Well, I guess this is kind of silly, I guess, but I really do want to say something that really bothers me. Not about you, but about us. And maybe it's silly, and just because I'm getting older... Does us include you? Yes, it does include you, but it isn't what you did. It's just that I wanted to keep, you know, people to make a space so that when you come in as the teacher to sit down, We would do that, and it bothers me that you had to climb over the counter to get in there and sit down.

[60:41]

And I know that that's a silly thing, but it just hurts me that we didn't open the way so that the teacher can sit down. I really, there's something about American manners that is really lacking Western manners. cowboys, you know, and we're all galloping, you know, and bragging in there, and so the teacher comes leaping over them. It's like, oh, thank you, please, please, please, in my old age, for the next 20 years, make way for the teachers to come. I don't think that's possible. But I'd like you to know, I really like you. You like me? I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that. That gave you a chance to express yourself. I can climb over you, under you, get mowed over by you.

[62:05]

But still, I really appreciate that you have ever cared. Next time. And you people in here, don't tell the other people. Well, you certainly made a way for your husband by coming here. Thank you. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the dimensions of self.

[63:21]

For me, the dimensions of self are all of you. The main thing is that the spiritual work is in the eternal. Whatever it is, that's fine. Last night I was watching a movie with my wife and she said, she was really in the movie by the great critic of it, how bad it is. I said, well just admit how bad it is. It was, you know, or another one was, one time I was out to dinner with some people, and a guy, a man, a husband and wife, and my wife said to the husband, who worked at Irvine, University of Irvine, he said, well what's Irvine like?

[64:33]

Irvine, California. He said, oh it's beautiful. And his wife said, it's ugly. It's ugly. And my wife always referred to that. The true way. It's not so much a submission to your wife is the true way, but it's a turning, you know? It's a turning. She already said it was beautiful. Why not? Why not? Because she says that's the way? A turn. A turn. I'm the dancer, and you're the... I'm the leader, you're the follower. How about turning? I'm the follower, you're the leader. I'm on top, you're on the bottom. How about... You're on top, I'm on the bottom. How about turning? It's not so much that one's better than the other. It's the turning. Turning. And in a relationship, what do you want? What [...] do you want? I want this, I want that. Turning, turning, turning.

[65:34]

Always turning. Freedom. And then in its turning, you start to realize that you thought you were doing it, but actually it's doing you. Or you thought you were realizing things, but actually things are realizing you. You thought you were talking, but everything's talking through you. It's turning, turning, turning. It's not one or the other. It doesn't switch over just to the other side. Switch over to the other side? Okay, fine. You're enlightened? But not because you're running away, just turn, [...] turn. But you've got to have a place, you've got to have a self to turn, and that's the hard part. Once you're willing to be yourself, to do the hard work of being yourself, which only you can do, and you really settle there, it turns. Once you're not trying to turn, once you're not trying to get away, No, no then.

[66:45]

So I'm really glad you're connecting with me. So, you've been talking about this all day. I hope you learned something. I don't need you, I don't care about you, maybe. Codependence has the advantage of, like, I do care about you, and maybe even I need you. That's kind of good. In a sense, it's a little bit more enlightening than independence. Because the Buddhist teaching is actually not that we're independent. The Buddhist teaching is we are dependent. And in fact, most of us do really, what we think is actually a total push on the Buddhist system.

[68:37]

Most of us do not believe in the Buddhist system, really. We think it sounds good, but really deep down, our secret love is independence. Okay? But codependence is a little bit closer to being interdependent, because you start to realize there is some, you know, at least he needs you, or she needs you. Yeah, right. And then maybe if you say, well, he needs me, you know, my baby needs me, and my father needs me, or whatever. That's good. And also, I need them. I need my baby. I need, I need to be, my baby needs my help. I need to help my baby. Okay? So, I give to this person, but also I need something from them. So you have to, you have to like, express yourself. You have to say, I want to help And I need you to help me. So I'm helping you, and I need you to give me information, for example. I need you to tell me how am I helping someone. And I need you to know that you need me.

[69:40]

And I need you to know that you need me. And I need you to know that I need you. So you need... If you're devoting your attention to someone, you need to get it to come back the other way. Otherwise, you're supporting that person to stay in their independence. So if you're devoted to someone, that's fine. But if you're devoted to someone who feels independent, you have to say, look, I need you. You're connected to me. And I need you to realize that you need me. You do. But sometimes people don't mention to the person they're supporting that they need them, or they don't mention that they need the person to tell them, because they're afraid that the independent So sometimes we can be selfish and be devoted. That's good, to be devoted, and to care about somebody. But because of selfishness, we don't ask them to do what they need to do.

[70:44]

Or we don't tell them what we need them to do. Because we're afraid, and it happens many, many times, that if we're supporting someone, and we tell them we need something from them, we won't be able to support them anymore, because they'll go bye-bye. You want something from me? See you later. You can support me, but not if you ask something back from me. Like, for example, information. You can support me, but asking me where I'm going when I go out the door? Forget it. So, I told you the story before, I know this woman, she had some hard times in the past, and her husband stayed with her, you know, during those hard times and supported her. But she feels very grateful to her husband. And he was a Zen student. And after she got through her hard times, partly by his loving support, she started practicing Zen. And when she started practicing, he kind of stopped practicing. But she got really into it, and she wanted to go to retreats.

[71:46]

But he didn't want her to go on retreats, especially on weekends when he was home. He wanted her to be home. So then sometimes she stays home and doesn't go to the retreats. But then she stays home, and then he goes off and leaves her there at home. But not only does he go off and leave her, but he doesn't care where she's going. And I said, you know, it's okay maybe to give up your Zen practice to be devoted to your husband, because that's really what Zen practice is about, being devoted to people. But don't be devoted to him without asking for something back. If he goes out the door and says, I'm here to be devoted to you, where are you going? Don't support him tell them you want, from the person you support, you want information back. Same with children. As they grow up, we support them. They actually give us information when they're little. The information they give us is screaming, turning red or blue, getting diaper rash.

[72:47]

They give us information. But as they grow up, they need to give us new kinds of information. They need to give us verbal information. And it's hard because as they grow up, they need to give us new kinds of information. And in order to be devoted to them, we need to get new kinds of information from them. In order to be devoted to them in a healthy way, non-codependent, interdependent. I help you, you help me. I give you information, you give me information. But we're afraid that the relationship will rupture if we let them know what we need. And if we ask them to show that they understand that they need us. It's very hard to get into those planes. It's very painful at that place. It's very hard to stay present with that. But if you don't, and you're devoted, you're codependent. And you're allowing them to drift off into independence. I'm tying myself up.

[74:12]

Nobody ties me up. I tie myself up. Maybe if I stop tying myself up you'll start tying yourself up. To me, it's the same thing.

[75:21]

If I get out of hand here, you people can tie me up. You will, in fact. If I, like, totally let go, you will tie me up, won't you? You will. And I'd say, well, basically, no problem. I'm asking you to be tied up when I express myself a certain way. That's the response. When I blow on you in a certain way, your wind chime response would be, tie him up. If somebody's with me and they try to jump out the window, my wind bell response is to stop them from jumping out the window. Just very natural, that's my response. I could come up in any case, I would do that. I would tie them up, I would stop them, I would close the window. It's the same thing. If someone's trying to kill someone, you respond as a bodhisattva, you respond by stopping them from killing, if you can. And if tying up is necessary, tie them up. And they're fully expressing themselves, and you're fully expressing yourself, and the conclusion is, hopefully, nobody gets hurt, as much as possible, but if it's necessary to get hurt, then that's what it takes for full expression, you know?

[76:37]

I saw another movie, about a woman, I guess her name is Diane Keaton, and she was the wife of a prison warden. Huh? No. Mrs. Sokol. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 1900. Prison right in the middle of town. She was living in this, you know, coal town prison. Her husband was And this lady was somewhat unstable, kind of embarrassing to the prison warden, trying to keep all these guys in control. Anyway, she goes around and reads the Bible to the people in prison, and she starts reading the Bible to these people who have been convicted of murder, and they say that they didn't commit the murder. Anyway, she helps them escape. And she goes with them as part of their escape.

[77:46]

And you don't know exactly if they take her with them, if their motivations are positive or not. Anyway, they start getting caught. And she says, you know, I don't want to go back. He says, shoot me. So he shoots her. And you know at that time he probably loved her because he was shot at the hospital. You know, I'm not sure exactly. He says he loved her, but anyway he gave up and shot her. Then they catch up with, the police catch up and they shoot him. But she didn't get killed. She lives. Goes back to the same prison where she was before he's wife.

[78:49]

But she has one visit, her daughter. We walk out of the theater and my wife said, some people have to go through a lot to get in touch with their uncle. So it may take quite a bit, you know. He didn't hurt anybody, actually. I don't think. But sometimes it's really rough to, like, express yourself. Sometimes you have to, I don't know what, become a little unstable, or... I don't know. Look crazy, maybe. And maybe it'll tie you up. That may be part of what's necessary. I'm not saying you should be crazy. People may think you're crazy. I'm not saying be crazy, I'm saying express yourself as best you can. Do your best job of expressing what you have to say. It's not the truth. Now, if you think it's the truth, then you think it's the truth, but it's the way you're expressing it. That's your job. If you want to be free, and you want other people to be free, your job is to express yourself.

[79:56]

If you want to not be free, and you want other people not to be free, then don't express If you want to be free, and you want other people to be free, or if you want other people to be free, as you're free, then I would say express yourself. Express the truest thing you have to express, moment by moment. Truest means the truest to you, not the truest like the reality. You're a more honest expression. Like for example, oh, or oh, or oh, or no, or yes. by Buddha. And there may be problems. And we just had a fear and fearlessness workshop here, and I was on it before, and what some people admitted, you know, if I expressed myself, you people wouldn't be able to handle it.

[81:06]

Everybody laughed when I said that. You know, maybe one person couldn't handle it, but a group of four or fifty people. But your self-expression is tremendously powerful. It can save the world. And that's the only way the world is expected to save, is your self-expression. Only way. There'd be no other way. And you express yourself just to express yourself, to liberate all beings.

[82:09]

You don't express yourself to manipulate people. If you express yourself to manipulate yourself, you manipulate other people. Then that's a partial expression. Full expression, you have nothing left over to try to get an effect out of it. You express yourself, and that's it. You express yourself You don't feel, and that's it. You don't lie, and that's it. You tell the truth, your truth, and that's it. Not to get an effect. Not to manipulate. Not to influence. It does get an effect. It does influence. And so there's partial experience. Partial experience. The difference is that one is done just for itself and liberates these beings and wakes things up, and the other is a reiteration of self-concern, self-delusion, protection, the music of what it's like to be a person. Right? Well, if it's not going away soon, and probably it isn't, then what do you have to worry about holding it for?

[83:51]

I don't want to become unconscious. I'm trying to... You're anxious about becoming unconscious? Yeah. So face the anxiety about becoming unconscious. About the anxiety. yourself to more and more and more. Are you fully expressing yourself right now? Uh, no. Come on, do it. Do some full expression. Well, I think that if I were really to express myself, people would not like it. Right, right, right. They don't like great stuff. You're not a creative person. Yeah, I had a hard time not saying it.

[85:22]

Could you give me an example? Maybe I could help you. The horror. I see a lot of horror. I see a lot of greed and suffering. And I don't see it talked about. I don't see it brought up. But I walk with it and I feel lonely. Well, tell me about it. If you don't want these people to hear it, tell me. Or do you want to tell somebody else? No, it's all right. There's some place to tell it. you're going to have to come and shrink from anxiety because you don't want to hurt people. So how do you, how do you come up there right on these, right? It's just about saying, feel that anxiety. If you can come up there and just about say it and feel that anxiety, okay? Then something will come to you about a way to say it. But if you come up there and can't feel the anxiety, shrink back from the anxiety, then you speak, your speaking will be off. It may not hurt people, but it won't be true expression. Your true expression comes from your willingness to feel the anxiety right at the surface of where you might hurt people or

[86:27]

this is bad, you might hurt yourself, I'm not telling the truth. Right in that phenomenon, that pain of feeling, if you can feel that, words will come and they will be good words. And if they're not good words, I say, if they're not good words, for me, it's that I wasn't really settled with the pain as I spoke. If I stay with the pain as I speak, and feel, and listen to my own pain as I speak, the words or a little hurt. But that's it. Then I say, was I really there? And you say, no. When I'm really there, I have not felt like I hurt people, although I get in trouble for what I do. They aren't hurt. But I'm willing to create it. Not inviting, too much to invite. Allow. Allow. Allow. And allow yourself to be aware of it. What you need to do, what you don't have to invite,

[87:30]

You have to express yourself. You don't have to go looking for that. You have to. Now, you've got to do that. As you start to do that, you feel anxiety. And if you think about what's going to happen, you feel fear. This is natural for a self-expressing person. People need to express themselves, and not just to be enlightened. It's our nature that we need to express ourselves. And when we start to get up there, we feel like, no, I can't. It won't work. And if you can feel that, no, it won't work. That's also your job, to feel that. And then if you can feel all that and you settle with that, then you have something to say still. But this expression is guided by awareness of how it feels and the anxiety. And the pain is from the idea that I'm speaking all by myself rather than I'm speaking on behalf of the entire world. When you speak for the whole world, it's not In order to speak for the whole world, you have to feel the anxiety of thinking that you speak for yourself.

[88:37]

If you feel the anxiety of thinking you speak for yourself, you speak for the whole world. The world, the speech that comes from being settled, with the idea of your own Congress, The self does need to express itself because the self needs to express itself in order to become liberated from the self. And the self, part of the self is to take care of itself, another part of the self, the self wants to be free of self. And as part of the freedom from self, you have to express the self. You can't become free if you don't express it. If you express it, you can see that then the tippet happens in the expression. As you express it, you can feel the anxiety. doesn't want to feel anxiety.

[89:40]

It's unselfish to feel anxiety. As you understand what's involved in self-liberation, you understand you must experience anxiety. But you don't have to invite the anxiety. You don't have to go look for the anxiety. Just express yourself. That will give you just the right anxiety. I feel it's happening right now. You know, there's a difference. It is changing. You're open to the moment, and that moment is not frozen in the next one. Well, give me an example. Lying, like you have an impulse to lie to me? Okay, well, which one do you want? Anger or lying? I get to choose? Anger? Okay, here's anger.

[90:41]

Anger, basically, I would say, Anger could be appropriate under some circumstances. There's a precept of not being angry, but part of what that means is don't be angry when you shouldn't be angry, and be angry when you should be angry. Sometimes anger is helpful to other people. So if you're irritated by somebody, somebody's doing something that's irritating you, someone's hurting you or hurting someone else, or hurting a tree, you know, if that irritates you, if you can be patient with that, and you can feel like, this irritation, as far as irritation goes, basically I'm ready to do anything. real fierce, NO!

[91:54]

Or STOP! Those didn't come from spiritualism, they came from intuition, that was self-expression. I wasn't trying to manipulate you, I was just expressing something, under the circumstances of you asking me that question. But if you're experiencing irritation and you're not present, you can't And then you express anger. Your anger is coming from nothing present. Your anger is coming from unwillingness to feel what it's like to be a person. This is really unhealthy life in the form of anger. And then your anger hurts you, first of all, mostly you, and maybe somebody else. If you're in some people's face, they can handle it. They can say, oh, it's OK. Relax. Settle down now. Sit down in your cushion now.

[92:47]

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