We've got those scrapers, I saw them today, the other day, you scraped it off. You have the scrapers and don't put the scrapers in your mouth between sermons. I just opened this book the other day, just to say at random, and I read this interesting little thing, sort of relevant. The Buddha asked Sona Danda, what are the things that priests say a man ought to have in order to be a true scholar? I think this is maybe, what do you call it, Brahmin priests, at the time of Buddha. What are the things that the Brahmin priests would say a person should have in order to be a true scholar? And Sona Danda replied, they must have five things, good birth on both sides, knowledge

[01:04]

of the Vedas, verses and rituals, beauty and fair in color, virtue and wisdom, beauty and fair color, you know, kind of like light skin, caste system. The Buddha asked, is it possible to leave out one of these five things and declare the person has the other four to be a true scholar? He answered, yes, you could leave out color. Or what does it matter if he has good birth, ritual training, virtue and wisdom? The Buddha continued, can we leave out one of these four? He answered, yes, we could leave out ritual training.

[02:05]

Buddha asked, can we leave out one of these three? He replied, yes, we can leave out birth, but what does it matter if he has virtue and wisdom? Other priests protested, Gautama Buddha is deprecating not only color, but our ritual training and birth, and you are going over to his teaching. Buddha said, if you think Sona Danda is unwise, then let him be quiet, and one of you could discuss it with me. Then he said to Sona Danda, is it possible to leave out one of these two and declare a person to be a true scholar and priest? Danda answered, no, for wisdom is purified by uprightness and uprightness is purified

[03:08]

by wisdom. Where there is one, there is the other. The Buddha said, that is right, I say the same. So, you can leave out a lot of stuff, but you can't leave out virtue, and just wisdom isn't enough. It's impossible to have wisdom without virtue. Of course, it is not impossible to have some virtue without wisdom, but wisdom purifies virtue and brings it to perfection, and virtue purifies wisdom. So this is an early Buddhist discussion of what we'll be saying over and over here. Also, I'd like to say a little bit more about this expression, common language, that I brought up the other night. There's all kinds of common languages, I think, all different situations or examples of common

[04:16]

languages that I think we need in order to have a fully functioning Buddhist community. One kind of common language is like, for example, Zen stories. If we read Zen stories, and there's various literary allusions and allusions to other stories, and terms like that, with a little bit of study, or even not any study at all, a lot of people can come up with some feeling about what these things are talking about. Like what a black lacquer bucket is, or what it means to go into the weeds for someone's benefit, and things like this. All these allusions, all these images, all these metaphors to convey the situation of Zen practice. But, in fact, a lot of stuff is just people, what we call, making up standards on their

[05:20]

own. And that's a problem in itself, but then if we start trying to talk to each other, sometimes we even assume that we understand what the other person means, or that they mean the same thing as us, and so on. And a lot of discussions, because they don't have common language yet, they were actually just kind of misunderstanding each other. Not to mention misunderstanding teaching. And in China and Japan, I think the Zen community developed, and when they first started to form, they didn't exactly have a common language. They were misunderstanding each other. And then, in evolution, after some actually long time, sometimes hundreds of years, they get to a place where they had a common language, and you could wander around, and you could talk to people, and you were using the words in the same way. And these stories meant not the same thing to everybody, but a lot of the stuff, they talked in a similar way.

[06:21]

And that's a wonderful moment in the history of some religious movement. And then after that sometimes, things get rigidified, because everybody knows what everything means, and it's hard to play with it at all. So right now in America, in terms of Zen practice, and to some extent, basic Buddhist teachings even, we have not yet arrived at a common language. And therefore we sometimes don't understand what each other are talking about. That's one kind of common language. There's other kind of common language about just our ordinary English words, and the background of our own Western philosophical traditions, which some of us are trained in, some of us are not, some of us have different understandings of what words mean. We use these words and talk to each other, and we just sometimes don't know, we don't understand each other. So that's another aspect of common language. And another aspect of common language, an example of that would be a group of people

[07:26]

at Tassajara, talking with each other until they can figure out maybe what they want the fall practice period and winter practice period next year to look like. And actually talking to each other in such a way that they actually know what they're talking about, and check it out with each other so they actually understand what each other want. And then, after you understand what each other want, then try to figure out what you want to do. Because once you find out what each other want, once you're clear, you might find out you want different things, or there's some difference of opinion, but you still can come to a consensus, even without everybody, again, having the same view. But if you don't know what each other are talking about, sometimes it's hard to come to consensus. So, in the process of creating some vision of what kind of practice period you want, that would be another kind of example of working for a common language and then applying it to actually create something together. So that's a kind of practical example. I know I'd like to just turn to the sort of main dish, and that is, I'd like to talk

[08:40]

about, I guess, to make things simple, in a way, I'd like to talk about a teaching about Zen precepts. And in the process of discussing this teaching on Zen precepts, I will try to keep in mind, and I invite you to remind me, of some things that you've already asked for. Namely, that the conversations keep simple, and that it be frequently related to daily experience, and, you know, our daily life experience in a very ordinary sense, and daily life experience in terms of practice. So I will try to keep relating it in that way. And if you feel it's getting off, you know, ring a little bell or something, or a whistle,

[09:45]

and you can stop and try to do that. I'm happy to do that anytime. What's happening, you know. And I have various little points in mind like that already. And so I guess what I propose that I do is I tell you a little bit about this teaching, give you a kind of overview of this teaching, for starters. And then we go into the details, and in the details, the first set of details that we'll bring out will be about the triple jewel, the triple treasure, the three refuges. Okay? Is that all right? Okay, specifically the teaching I'm talking about is actually a teaching of our school, the Soto School. And there's a text which I've been working on translating with Kaz Tanahashi for quite

[10:54]

a while, and this text is called, in Japanese, Zen Kai Sho. Zen means, you know, whatever that means, Zen. And Kai means precepts. And Sho means essence. Yeah. Excuse me, do you have any white chalk for... Is that better? Yeah. I have double vision. Is that one word? No, it's Chinese, it's three-character, Zen Kai Sho. So it's a three-character expression for this text. What is the Sho part?

[11:55]

Sho means essence. Yes. Okay, now, we even have an eraser here at this school. Bye-bye. Let's see. That's the name of the text, all right? Now, here's how the text is built. I'll make circles for this. The center of the text is the sixteen great... The BS with a circle around it is Bodhisattva. The sixteen great Bodhisattva precepts is the center and, you know, the real point of the text. That's what the text is about, is the sixteen precepts. All right, what these precepts are about.

[12:59]

And I will erase precepts to make it smaller. That's maybe... That's okay, I'll just write sixteen in the middle. The center. And then, Dogen Zenji wrote a commentary on these sixteen precepts, which is called, in Japanese, Kyo, one character. Jyu, another character. Kai. Mon. Kyo means teaching. Jyu means receiving. Kai means precepts, again. And Mon means, like, it could be instruction or essay. So, the way to translate this text into English would be,

[14:11]

essay or instruction, whichever you like, teaching and receiving the precepts by Dogen Zenji. So that's the kind of... That's around the sixteen precepts. Any questions about that? Who wrote the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts? Well, is that all? Is it just the statement of the precepts? Yeah, just the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts. The three refuges, the three pure precepts, and the ten, and in this case, the ten great precepts. The ten, literally, heavy precepts. Okay? We can also, sometime, if you want, go into the history of how that sixteen came up. That'll be something. That's the next layer, all right?

[15:16]

Now, this Kyoju Kaimon is presented or structured in such a way that it basically corresponds to the, what we call, Ryaku Pusats. And usually in Japan, when they do Ryaku Pusats, the Doshi, after what we call, after the Ryaku Pusats, the Doshi just sets over to the side like an ordination at a separate altar and recites the Kyoju Kaimon. Which I've done here a couple of times, but people said they got tired holding their hands and got showered, so I stopped. The next layer is, it means abbreviated Pusats.

[16:21]

And Pusats means, is a Japanese way of saying Upasata. Upasata means confession. That's the Bodhisattva Ceremony. We call it Bodhisattva Ceremony, but literally it means abbreviated confession ceremony. And there's also Daifusatsu, which is a large-scale confession ceremony. So, in the usual tradition is to do this on the full moon and the new moon, right? That's what they did in India. And actually, China and Japan and Korea, they do it that way too. And actually, Green Gulch, for a while we were doing it on the new and full moon also. And then, in Japan, they do the big one once a month and the small one once a month. Okay. And the next layer of commentary is called, what's it called? Well, let's just say for simplicity's sake,

[17:26]

it's called Zenkaisho. And that was written by a guy named Kyogo. And Kyogo is a monk who studied, he actually, he must have studied with Dogen when he was fairly young, because he was still writing in the early 1300s. So maybe he was born in 1230 or something like that. Anyway, he studied with Dogen Zenji, and then later he studied with Dogen Zenji's disciple, Senne. Dogen Zenji had four disciples, a Chinese one, Senne, Eijo, and another man, I forgot his name, but he died fairly young. And Senne was one of Dogen's Japanese,

[18:29]

he had two Japanese disciples that lived, and Senne was one of them. Kyogo lived at the time of Dogen, so he actually heard Dogen Zenji teaching about the precepts and delivering Kyoju Kaimon. But he also then studied with Senne, and Senne was a closer disciple. So Senne, by studying with Senne, he was able to make this commentary on Dogen Zenji's Kyoju Kaimon. That's the next layer. Are you following this? So you have one, two, three layers of commentary on the precepts, now that this text is growing. And there's one more layer. The fourth layer of commentary and notation. One layer is the precepts,

[19:31]

Dogen's commentary, Kyoju Kaimon, Kyogo's commentary, Zenkaisho, and now the next layer is also called Zenkaisho. But another teacher comes along in the 18th century, and his name is Ban Jin Danto. And he wrote an introduction to this whole thing, and a question and answer session, and a warning, admonitions about how to use it, and also he footnoted each section. So that's the text that I'm translating, with cause. All of those layers? All those layers. And what I intend to do myself, then, is write a commentary to that,

[20:32]

and then commentary on the different sections to go along with it. And I can explain to you my reason for that. Did you just ask a question, Stuart? Yes. Would you enumerate again the contribution of Ban Jin? You wrote a commentary, you wrote an admonition... He wrote... No, he didn't really write a commentary. He wrote an introduction, a wonderful introduction, which you will hear. Then he wrote a kind of little question and answer session, and then he wrote a kind of a warning about how to use this text, which you will see that I'm violating by telling you about it. So... And footnotes, you said? And footnotes, yeah. Quite a bit of footnotes. About the footnotes, somewhere, you know, comparable to the size of the text. So the footnote makes the text almost once again as big.

[21:33]

It's not a real big text. Probably, I don't know, 50 pages or something, altogether. Just, you know, maybe 15 or 20 pages of the Taisho, Chinese pages. This is in classical Japanese, most of it. I'd be interested to know if you feel like sharing this, but only before you write a commentary. Some people think it's a little bit eliminating. Tell me about how you feel about the text. What did you say? I'd be interested to know, one, is that you'd be writing a commentary, because I think if you shared with us a little bit how you feel about the text, it means you might eliminate... Well, the reason why I feel like I should write a commentary... Well, I didn't originally think so, but Kaz kind of told me that he thought I should, and the more I thought about it, the more it made sense, in a way, although it's a little bit arrogant. In introduction, I think it's okay. I'll definitely do that. Maybe I won't do the commentary, because I'm kind of associating myself with these people

[22:36]

by doing that, so maybe I shouldn't. But anyway, what Dogen did was a commentary on the 16 precepts. Right? The 16 precepts, there they are, right? But it's not so easy to really understand what they mean. So Dogen Zenji explained what they meant. But you will soon hear what he said. And what he said... laughter You're going to think, some of you are going to think, that's quite beautiful, but what's it got to do with the precept? I'll just give you an example, right now. Okay, the first precept is not taking life. Not taking life is not killing. Not taking life... Excuse me. I don't like that one. I guess I have to do that one, because I didn't bring mine. Life is not killing is facilitated by the development of the Buddha seed

[23:42]

and succession in the wisdom life of the Buddhas. One must not cut off life. That's his commentary. Here's another one. Not stealing. In the dustness of mind and objects, the gates of liberation are open. So, Kyoko thought, people need some help with this. This is too essential, you know. It's too close to the bone. He's opening up something, and after you hear what Kyoko says, and what Banjin says, and so on, you can see. And also, if you study, if we study carefully what Dogen said, we will see. He really did say something really interesting, but it's not so easy to see, right? So Kyoko wrote a commentary with the help of his... It's really his teacher's understanding, but he wrote it on Dogen.

[24:43]

And he said quite a bit more than Dogen did. A page or so, on each one of these comments of Dogen. And the way he did it was, he looked at the precepts and Dogen, and he also looked at another text, which is also often read on the Bodhisattva ceremony night, which is called, in Sanskrit, Brahma... Brahma... Jala... Sutra. In Japanese, the way the Japanese say it is, Bomopyo. There's two Brahma Jala Sutras. One is a Theravada text, which you may have seen, very interesting text, but it's not about the precepts. This is a Mahayana text, and it's about the 48th

[25:46]

Bodhisattva precepts. So, Brahma Jala Sutra is a Mahayana scripture, which comments on the Bodhisattva precepts. So, in China, and Japan, and so on, Korea, and also in Tibet, there's a regular Bodhisattva confession ceremony once or twice a month, and they read this, either they read it all together, or the doshi reads it by herself. So, Kyogo coordinated this sutra with what Dogen said, and used this sutra to bring Dogen out a little bit, and justify him. With more, you know, familiar Mahayana teaching about the precepts. But he's also, what he says also is really quite different from,

[26:51]

it's wonderfully different from anything I had ever seen about the precepts. Although, after thinking about it, it's not in violation or anything, it just opens up another dimension. And, so then, hundreds of years later, this guy named Banjin was, he tells this lovely story, but anyway, he was out there in some deep valley someplace, and he came into this temple, and met this abbot, and hit it off with him, and the abbot showed him this text, which he had never seen before. Kyogo's commentary, and he read it, [...] he said, after reading it a hundred times, I kind of, I saw something. And then he said, so I decided, I should try to get this out in the world a little bit, so, he tells his story. And so he wrote an introduction and all this, and wrote, and did, and he was a scholar, Banjin was quite a scholar, and he put in footnotes that he thought

[27:54]

would be helpful to understand, even help more understand Kyogo and Dogen, and the Bodhisattva precepts. Okay? So, I thought, well, now it would be good to try to relate all this to 1990, whatever, with what's going on in the world today, and the current situation of Zen practice, and our understanding of precepts, and so on and so forth. And, you know, I don't know what's going to come of that, but I just thought it would be good to bring it and relate it to other things that are happening in the Buddhist world around precepts and practice. Although, even without that, I think the text would be quite interesting to Zen students. The reason why I originally started studying this text was I was talking to Katagiri Roshi one time, and he told me about this text, you know, and he told me that if you read this text, you know, you would not think, when you read this text, that it has anything to do with precepts.

[28:55]

Because, again, we walk around, all of us, most of us, with some idea about what precepts are, and it's just our idea. And we may share it with a bunch of other people, but these guys are presenting quite a different perspective, such a different perspective, that a lot of us would think, is this about the precepts? Is this about ethics? Well, it's about, they think it's about ethics, they think it's about precepts. As a matter of fact, they think it's really about precepts, and they also know that people back then also would be shocked by what they said. That they're talking about a really different way of approaching life in these precepts. That's what they're proposing. So, when I heard that, I thought, well, that'd be interesting. So for years and years, I wanted to, I wanted to translate the text. And finally, it's happening. And does anybody know of any Zen texts

[29:56]

about precepts? In English? Hm? Kyojo Kaino's all there. Huh? That's not, that's what he says, but that's not a traditional text. Oh, no. What's that? I mean, from China and Japan and, and, you know, Korea and Vietnam and so on, Tibet, do you know of any texts on precepts? There aren't any. Just a little bit more, don't you think? It's a commentary. Like the classical Jukai. Hey, Troy. There you go. Dogan on the Jukai. And he also wrote a book, he also wrote an article called Sho Aku Makusaku. You know that one? Avoid all evil. The first line of the three pure precepts. And if you read that too, that's just got to do with precepts. I recommend you look at it. What's it called? In Japanese, Sho Aku Makusaku, which means avoid all evil. It's the,

[30:59]

you know, the first portion is to avoid all evil, the second is practice good. It's that one. Can you spell it? Japanese? Sho Sho Aku Aku A-K-U Maku Saku Don't do that! But actually, it's interesting, right off the top, I mentioned to you that this Maku, there's a Chinese word, this one, which is in the Heart Sutra, and if we chant, you know, with all those Fu's in there, that's this one. It means not. The Maku is not like this.

[32:01]

It's not like, you know, don't, it's a little bit like don't do all evil. But it's also a little bit more like there isn't any, you know. I don't remember how to write this, sorry. I just remember the general shape, but I don't remember how to write it. But it's more the feeling of you can't, or there isn't any. It's sort of halfway between don't and there can't be any, or there isn't any. This is just regular don't. That's Maku, yeah. Okay? So that was another, that was I kind of didn't, I couldn't see any really, that dealt with, you know, that went down the list and looked at the precepts. So there is, Dogen did write about the about the refuges and about receiving the precepts and how important it was to receive the precepts. But he didn't, except for Kyojo Kaimon, like go down and deal with each precept,

[33:03]

the three pure precepts and so on. So, that was my motivation. How are you doing? Is this, is this good? Is this simple enough? Simple enough? I won't go any further. I hope this isn't too far. Sorry. Ban Jin. Ban Jin. So,

[34:11]

it's 820. So the beginning, the way, the way that the Zenkai show is built is that at the beginning it's, it's pretty much just quoting Kyojo Kaimon. Zenkai show is this this text. Okay? So at the beginning of Zenkai show it pretty much just quotes this Dogen's commentary. I mean, at the beginning of where he starts making the commentary, not the introduction and stuff like that. But I'd like to, right now I don't want to get into the introduction and the history of the text anymore. I'd like to sort of go into the, a little bit more into the meat if that's alright with you. I was just going to ask

[35:11]

if there's a translation of the Kyojo Kaimon. Yeah. There's three or four translations and I could easily, this could be, this could be a 0-axis sheet right here. You can 0-axis for people. This is Dogen's? Yeah, this is Dogen's. This commentary fits on one piece of paper? Huh? How does it fit on one piece of paper? Well, the main part, the commentary does an introduction to that too. So maybe I should give you the whole thing. So we can do that. Yeah, that's, that's, you can have that. But Kyojo Kaimon basically,

[36:13]

you can get it on two sides of one piece of paper. It's not long, it's very, it's very bare bones, essential kind of comments. Yeah. Do you have an idea when this new translation might be published? Published? Well, I would say it could be published. It could be published. It could be printed in 1992. It's possible. It depends on how available certain people are. This is, this is what we read in the city for, yeah, isn't it? What the Doshi reads in the city? Do they, don't you do that? People don't mind holding their hands in gacho? They mind it. I don't know. Anyway,

[37:14]

it's traditional to read that, for the Doshi to read that. So, again, I would just say this, all right? One of the, there is a ritual for entering into Buddha's way, and that ritual is composed of sort of like three parts. First part is what we call confession repentance. Second part is going or, going for or receiving the, receiving the refuges. Third part is vowing to practice the precepts. This is a, you know, very ancient,

[38:15]

both Theravada and Mahayana way for people to ritually enter the Buddha way. Repentance, confession, going for refuge, vowing to practice the precepts, or receiving the precepts. Okay? The Bodhisattva ceremony, as you can see, is sort of based, based on that. It has a similar structure. So, Shakyamuni sort of has that structure too. And so, this text has that structure too. So, Kyoji Kaiman starts out something like this. The great precepts

[39:25]

of all Buddhas has been protected mutually transmitted from ancestor to ancestor. Receiving the precepts goes beyond all three times. Confirming the precepts penetrates throughout past and present. Our great teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, conferred them upon Mahakasyapa. Mahakasyapa conferred them upon Ananda. And so on. In this way, precepts have been legitimately conferred up to the present abbot as the blank generation. So, when you read it, you write in, the abbot reads in whatever generation that abbot is. Now it's, in my case, 91st generation. Successive. And then we say,

[40:27]

now I offer this to you in order to repay the Buddha ancestors for their profound benefaction and make them the eyes of human and celestial beings. Thus, you are to inherit Buddha ancestors life of wisdom. And then the Kurjukaymon says, next one should take refuge, no, it says, respectfully in virtue of the testimonial of Buddhas and ancestors, you should take refuge, let me ask what it says. Okay. This is two different translations. You should take refuge in Buddha Dharma Sangha. The triple treasure has three kinds of merits and virtues.

[41:29]

Kurjukaymon says, respectfully in virtue of the testimonial of Buddhas and ancestors, you should take refuge in the triple treasure and repent. Sincerely repeat the words after me. And then it says that the formula, all the ancient twisted karma ever created by me or all my ancient twisted karma. And you say that. And then after that, as already verified by Buddhas and ancestors, the karma of body, speech and mind has been purified and you have attained great purity. This is due to the power of repentance. And then it says, next you should take refuge in Buddha Dharma Sangha. There are three kinds of virtue and merit of the triple treasure. Alright? Which I mentioned to you the other night. Single body, triple treasure, manifest

[42:43]

triple treasure and abiding and maintaining triple treasure. Thank you. So, there's two ways to go now. One way would be to, before we talk about these three ways, these three types or three kinds of triple treasure, three kinds of refuge, we could just look at the triple treasure ourselves without hearing anything from these people and just

[43:44]

go right at it directly now and then look at the commentary later. I have a slight preference for that myself but I'm also willing to take the first pass at this if you want to. Any ideas? Feelings? Any suggestions? Okay. Okay. So, I would say now a word about the oneness or the closeness, the intimacy

[44:44]

of these precepts and certainly starting out with these three treasures, these three refuges and what we call just sitting. In one sense, it's very important that you understand that there's three treasures but in another sense there's a lot of Mahayana teaching that although there's three, really there's only one Buddha. There's really just one precept but you can't hold to that so there has to be three. There's just one precept and also if you look at the three treasures

[45:46]

there's just one treasure and there's just one refuge and there's just one precept really. But again, as a way so that we don't hold to that or anything like that we must have three in order to understand what one is and actually we must have sixteen in order to understand what one is so we have sixteen and we're very lucky. Is there one of the ten great precepts that's the one that they all are in? Yeah, the last one and the first one and each one. Not killing is not killing. Not killing is one precept. Not killing is ten precepts. Not killing is the life of Buddha's wisdom.

[46:46]

It's a quote from Zen Kaisho. So all these precepts are just one precept. And the last precept don't abuse the three treasures there's the Buddha. Don't abuse the Buddha. That's the first thing. How do you abuse the Buddha? What? Killing? What's another way to abuse Buddha? One that's a little closer to what we've just been talking about. Don't take refuge. That abuses the Buddha. Don't stay... Don't be intimate with Buddha. That abuses Buddha. That's the main way to abuse Buddha. Turn away from Buddha. That abuses Buddha. Holding on to Buddha. Identifying with Buddha. Running away from Buddha. Those are ways to abuse Buddha. Taking refuge does not mean you identify or of course doesn't mean you separate. Taking refuge means you separate. It means

[47:48]

true intimacy with what we are. And we could spend a lot of time on repentance but I would just briefly say that I think the way Katagiri actually puts it that repentance is a process by which you make yourself completely open. So before you receive these precepts you practice repentance and practicing confession and repentance is should be done in such a way that it makes you completely open so you can hear this this refuge and feel this refuge. This jewel. So the first precept doesn't sound too much like ethics

[48:49]

Buddha. And again I would think just go to this text that Stuart mentioned the text of which is called the inactivity or the non-moving of all dharmas where Manjushri is teaching Buddha that the fact that a sentient being is a sentient being is precisely what we mean by a Buddha. Not by a Buddha by Buddha by awakening. So when a sentient being is a sentient being that means the sentient being is just sitting on being a sentient being. When a sentient being doesn't move the non-movingness of a sentient being is precisely what we mean by of Buddha. The precise condition of being ascension being is called not moving. Not moving is for ascension being to be precisely ascension being, that's Buddha.

[49:55]

So not moving, for ascension being not to move, is what we mean by Buddha. So there it is, the first precept, Buddha, is literally for ascension being not to move. So the first precept and the practice of just sitting are exactly the same thing. So we go, we return, we take refuge, we receive the first precept as the entrance to zazen and before we do that we open our heart completely to receive not moving. In what sense do you mean by movement, what kind of movement? Well I didn't really talk about movement, I said not movement. But again like take Buddha okay, if you go towards Buddha and try to grab Buddha, like

[51:00]

what do you say, it's like a massive fire, turning away and touching are both wrong, to go towards it or to go away from it. To go towards yourself, to try to get yourself or to hesitate to be yourself, those are two ways to sort of feel like you're moving, of course it's impossible to go towards yourself or go away from yourself, but to be involved in that kind of thinking is what's called being involved in evil thought. To confess that you have been doing this kind of thing from beginningless time, to confess that you've been going towards and away from yourself for innumerable lifetimes is part of opening yourself to receiving being yourself completely. So this kind of practice, in other words, of just being a living being is called not moving, it's called just sitting, and it also can be called not shopping.

[52:04]

And not shopping is the same as shopping with all sentient beings. So when I was teaching the precepts at Green Gulch I said that to take refuge in Buddha means no more shopping. Buddha itself is no shopping, just being yourself, not shopping for somebody else, and taking refuge means not shopping for anything but Buddha, so doubly not shopping. And then Wendy Johnson drew this beautiful little card for me, big card, about this big, and she had this Safeway shopping cart with one of those circles and a cross across it. And then on the other side she had this picture of this lady shopping, with kids all over her and dogs and cats and stuff like that, and all this junk and balloons and stuff,

[53:19]

and said shopping with all beings. That's Buddha too, Buddha is shopping with all beings, and when I proposed to you that when you don't move you naturally go shopping with all beings, when you don't move you want to go shopping with all beings. You yourself never go, you don't go shopping, you've given up shopping, but you want to shop with everybody, everybody is the ideal shopping partner, when you don't move. So that not moving makes you unconditionally compassionate, because a sentient being that's just a sentient being is compassionate. A sentient being that's willing to be herself is willing to relate to other people in all their humanness, or even non-humanness, whatever, but if you can't accept yourself and sit still

[54:24]

with yourself, you may think you're relating to other people, but you're really not. So, I'd like to stop right here and say, let's talk about all the ways we can of how to relate this first treasure, this first refuge to our daily life right now, how to see this treasure, this refuge, and taking refuge in this Buddha, how to see that in terms of our experience. Let's talk about that and get a feeling for that. Okay, Pam, I gave you some money, help us do this, okay?

[55:27]

Okay, help us relate this first precept, this refuge of the Buddha to our experience. Well, I'm thinking a little bit of homework, but the homework I did included looking at all three precepts, I mean all three refuges, so in the way I've been thinking about it, three of them sort of meet each other, for one. Although... That's true. Well, I did, I looked around for various things. Why don't you stand up here and talk that way so that I can hear you better. If you want, if you want. I looked at various things to see what was written about this, and as Rev said, there's

[56:36]

not very much, but there's a little bit of stuff. There's some things that Suzuki Roshi said, there's some things that Kagiri Roshi said, and there's ways of talking about Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and what they are, which I could say, and then I tried to understand that for myself in terms of my own experience, like sitting here talking. And there's also, I don't know if you've seen this, but there's a little notebook in the library that looks like some talks by, I don't know if you've seen it, but maybe the people who talk about Tsugutsuna to us or something, it's in the ethics section and it talks about precepts, and I was looking through that and he talks about how basically all the precepts

[57:43]

are one precept, and the refuges and so on, it's all one, and the one thing is, this is it. And that struck some notes for me, that that's what we're really talking about, and that's what all of the refuges and so on are trying to point us to, there's an elaboration and a point for us to help us realize, this is it, and that this is it has to do with a feeling of separateness, which various people have been talking about quite beautifully, really, in their talks and so on. So when I brought that to my own experience of thinking about

[58:44]

this and talking about it, what came up for me was less a feeling of this is it than the resistance I have to that, and then some desire to try to include that resistance or dread or fear of sort of admitting that and sinking into sort of this life right here and right now as it, and a consistent wanting to either get more or push away, which there was this, you know, there's the description of suffering in Buddhism and also violating precepts, and that actually I do that all the time. So does this make you feel like, is this relating into your daily experience now,

[59:49]

is that what you feel right now? Well, Like right now you're having experience, are you relating this Buddha to your experience right now? Yeah. Well then, why don't you do that? And how would you do that? Anybody here able to feel this first precept relating to your experience or your experience relating to this precept right now? Yes? I find, as we've been talking here, the ceremony tomorrow night room is larger and larger, and some of the things we've said, the sitting still and the not moving, and for me this,

[60:52]

as you were talking I realized that why there's a reason before one does the entrance ceremony, so it's not done the day that you get it, and as we talked some of that became clearer, and things sort of opened up as we talked more about taking refuge in Buddha, and what is that, and I found thoughts arose, a conversation, a convention I had out of the converse pile, so it all, it constantly seems to be hitting upon innumerable things, just as I sit here, just as I look at you, and see you looking at me, so for me at least very much is opening right now. Is that articulate? Did that answer your question? How? How? How? How what? How does it? How does it? I thought I said how. And I'm asking you again now, how? Oh, okay, I think it's putting me in a position to say something, so now I'm saying something,

[62:01]

and I don't actually know at this moment how to answer that question, but still there's some dialogue. Right, yeah, so how does your speech right now relate to the first precept? Faith that ... How does that word you just said relate? Faith? Faith. How does your speaking right now relate to it? What are you experiencing right now? Um ... Tell us about your experience. I'm fluttering in my stomach. Okay, now how does that relate to Buddha? It is Buddha. How? How, there's no how, it's just what it is. Really? Is there something else? No, I'm just saying really? I asked you really? I'm not saying there's something else, really? Really. Do you believe? Yeah. I was actually looking to see if I didn't believe, but I couldn't find any discipline,

[63:03]

so that left me with belief. Do you believe that this is Buddha? Yeah. What is this? Now, what is this now? This is now. No, but what experience is it now, for you? I'm feeling Buddha's beauty. Is this the first precept? Oh, yes. Do you believe? Absolutely. Okay, good. Now, how about you? How are you doing? What are you experiencing? I'm experiencing wishing that ... Is this Buddha? Yes. Do you believe? Yes. Is this taking refuge? Yes. What did you say? Yes. This is testimony, this is witnessing. Can you not shop for anything but this right now?

[64:06]

Yes. I was very inspired when Pam was talking about her work on the first precept, bringing out all the ways in which she doesn't. And then when you asked her whether that was the first precept right now, she said no, and that was very inspiring. Are you inspired by what you just said? It's irrelevant to me. What was inspiring about it? I'm sorry, I can't tell you. What is your experience now? Well, I think I ate too fast. So you're kind of susceptible to inspiration? I was, you know, I came back after taking a bath and lay down just for a minute and missed dinner.

[65:16]

And then you came and ate fast. And then I came and ate fast and came quickly to the conference. I feel like I'm not self and I can't eat. It's kind of a big part of this discussion for me right now. It's funny, but when we start getting into do you believe in people saying yes or no, it's very ambiguous for me. Because when they say yes, or when they say no, it doesn't seem that relevant to me. I know you're that kind of person, that's true. But my question to you is, are you shopping for anything else? No. I'm just looking.

[66:22]

So I'm proposing that the way to relate this experience to Buddha, or relate the first precept to your experience, is to experience your experience as just your experience and nothing, the slightest bit more or less than that. That's the way to relate to it. Never to get, not even never anyway, not at this moment anyway, not to be other than peanut sauce somewhere up around the throat or whatever it is. That thing itself, you being that person that you are. How about shopping for something else? How about if you told me being a person is shopping for something else? Well, then that's not shopping. Or shop with all beings, that's the same thing. Shop with all beings means also that's the same thing as not moving. That's when all dharmas advance forward and you witness the advent of all things as your life. Same thing.

[67:29]

Anyway, I'm happy to continually look at what's happening to us now in this room as does it relate to what we're talking about and not to be sort of drifting off someplace else. And always think about, like right now when I'm talking, can I simultaneously be meditating on the itselfness or the suchness of what's happening and not be running away while I'm talking. It's not easy. And this again relates to this no outflows. But this is one way to try to get the first precept. Let's not go on. Each precept, let's try to relate them to what's happening. I think each precept can be put to this test while we're studying or put ourselves to the test by the precept, while we're studying the precept to ask ourselves while we're studying them, what's it got to do with now? So, you brought this up so I appreciate that and I will, if you want,

[68:36]

keep coming back to that as often as I want, as often as you want. And we can still cover some material, maybe. Maybe we'll just stay on this precept. I don't know. Probably we'll go forward. Okay, well, it's almost nine o'clock, so it's okay. Here we can stop. And again, in our next session, we can look some more at these three jewels and see how we understand them ourselves before we go on to looking at the three different ways of looking at them, these three traditional ways of looking at them. And I would tell you beforehand that I look to you to help me figure out a way

[69:42]

to make the difference these three different ways also meaningful, how we would relate these three different ways to our experience, which I've had difficulty doing because they're very subtle. Are you raising your hand? Yes. In your Dharma talk the other day and again tonight, you talked a little bit about visu-tive and out-of-home. Those are terms that I can't communicate with you on, so how do I find out about those? I don't know. Well, maybe our next session I could talk about. That would be good. If you remind me, I'll try to do that. Because in terms of our discussion tonight, shopping for somebody other than who you are is an example of outflow.

[70:51]

And depending on which kind of you you are, you can have different kinds of shopping. In other words, the way you run away from different aspects of yourself, those are different ways you run, different types of running away that you do. Yeah. Yes, Leon. Experience. What about experience? What do you mean? When you have an experience, whatever the experience is, the experience itself, the fact of the experience being the experience, that's what Buddhism is about. That's the kind of thought, that's the kind of way you have to learn how to conduct your life. That's called taking refuge in Buddha. To exhaustively, thoroughly be what you are. Outflows are ways we sort of dribble away from our experience.

[72:00]

So we have a partial experience. Yeah, we have partial experience. Unfulfilled life. It's ways we make more of or less of what's happening to us. That's why I say it's like, it's the way you kind of leak away from what you're doing. And then the different kinds of outflows, there's different, as the experience changes, the type of outflow feels somewhat different. Different kinds of experiences will have different kinds of ways of being undermined, so that the outflows seem to be of different types. Basically they're the opposite of taking refuge in reality. That's what they basically are. But it would be good if we could learn how to spot them. And the way they look is different depending on what's happening to you. The way you run away from your opinions is different than the way you run away from your emotions, is different than the way you run away from your feelings, is different from the way you run away from yourself when you're talking.

[73:05]

So there's different ways we slip away, or different ways we get overly indulgent in what's happening. When you're pushing in some of the ways that you do, like when you're asking, how, how, how, that kind of relentless kind of thing, are you involved in setting up a situation where you're trying to chase someone back to where they might be? And you think they are, or... Yeah, I'm trying to get into their experience, right? My experience of that is that sometimes it works, and sometimes I actually feel less authenticity in the discussion, as if the person's being pressured to say something before they're led to it, or something like that. So that's what I was noticing tonight,

[74:06]

that sometimes the person would say something and it would seem like they were pulling behind what they were saying. Sometimes they would say something and it didn't seem like they were pulling behind what they were saying. So I just... That's my experience of this style of conversation. Well, if you were in the position, then if you felt that they weren't behind what they were saying, you could try to find out if they were. I don't know whether that would be constructive. I don't know how to... you know, I don't know how to do it. No one knows if it's going to be constructive, but you could try it. You could investigate, you could probe, to find out by what you say, how the person responds, and see if you feel that they... how they do it. But now, something... Another thing that has to happen here is that the person has to arrive at a place where they assert their position. Are you saying we can butt into conversations? Pardon? Are you saying we can butt into conversations? Is that what...

[75:12]

I don't know. I mean, it seemed like that's what you were suggesting, that we jump in. You don't have to find a good reason. I didn't understand what you mean by that. I was suggesting you jump in. Well, you were saying something... You said, then, if you feel like they're not totally behind what they say, then maybe you could probe, maybe you could say something. And then Steve said, well, does that mean we can butt in? In this discussion? Butt in? I'd like it to be that way, that it could happen that way. Anybody, anytime, can do that. I think anybody... I'd like it to be that way, if people can handle that, that anytime anybody can call the... call the reality, what's happening now for you? Who are you right now? What's happening for you right now?

[76:19]

I'm sleeping. I'm coping. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Dilutions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them.

[77:20]

Breath's way is non-surpassable. I vow to be kind.

[77:29]

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