How many people were not in Alexander last night during the talk? Well, I stopped last night because I didn't want to keep you up late. I was going to do a little summary at the end, but if I do the summary now, the new people maybe had trouble with the summary. So I guess I have to give the whole thing over. But short. So I started last night by saying that my ultimate concern is to endeavor to work for the enlightenment of all beings before myself. And I mentioned another way to put it is to work so that all beings will not take themselves too seriously.

[01:26]

Because the idea is that taking ourselves seriously is the fundamental cause of our suffering. So if we can just not take ourselves too seriously, we will become... free of suffering. By the way, not taking yourself too seriously could also be called self-respect. So in a way, self-respect is the way to become free of suffering. Deep self-respect. And also in the sense of self-respect, respect means to look again. So usually the way we see ourselves is there and we should be respectful of ourselves and look again.

[02:35]

Take another look. Maybe we didn't quite see clearly who we are. Maybe we overestimated or underestimated ourselves. So the way to realize, so the bodhisattva vow, the ultimate concern of bodhisattvas to work for the welfare of others before oneself, this is an example of not taking yourself too seriously. We're not so worried in that case about our own welfare, but primarily concerned for the welfare of others. If we're concerned for our own welfare first, we will be very miserable.

[03:42]

If we're concerned for others' welfare first, we will be very happy. So wanting others to become free before us, really wanting that is what we want. In fact, others never become free before us. Because as soon as others are free, we're free. Others are not benefited before us because as soon as we help others, we're helped simultaneously. But we want to help them before ourselves. Because if we want to help ourselves before them, or even at the same time as then, we're still taking ourselves a little too seriously. We're still not really respecting ourselves. And the practice, the kind of like the practice in Zen to sort of like embody prototypically or archetypically embody this not taking ourselves seriously is just to be upright.

[04:56]

Is to be upright. Is the way to save all beings. Just being upright, right where you are, is enlightenment. And that enlightenment is the fulfillment of your vow to help others before yourself. So if you want to help others before yourself, just be upright. Being upright is not taking yourself seriously. If you take yourself seriously, too seriously, you are not upright. And being upright is also, as I said last night, it means to refrain from all evil. To be upright is to refrain from evil.

[06:08]

To be upright is to practice good. To be upright is to save all beings. To be upright is not killing. To be upright is not stealing. But also, to not take yourself seriously is to refrain from all evil. To not take yourself too seriously is not killing. Not stealing is not taking yourself too seriously. Not lying is not taking yourself too seriously. Or put it the other way, lying is taking yourself too seriously. Stealing is taking yourself too seriously. Praising yourself at the expense of others is taking yourself too seriously. Being possessive is taking yourself too seriously. Being angry is taking yourself too seriously. Speaking of others' faults is taking yourself too seriously.

[07:08]

Wanting to help others before yourself, you don't kill. You don't steal. You don't lie. You're not possessive. You don't get angry. You don't speak of others' faults. You don't praise yourself ahead of them, and so on. So just being upright where you are is like that. being upright right where you are with complete composure when you don't know who you are or where you are. Because knowing who you are is taking yourself too seriously. It's not self-respect if you think you know who you are. It is taking a mystery and bringing it into something familiar, which is an insult, and causes anxiety, fortunately.

[08:22]

And it also goes against when you bring yourself from your great mystery into something you can know, you kill something, you steal something, you lie, you slander, and so on. So one summary statement I was going to make last night was, yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Now, what is vow in this case? Did I get the quote right, certainly? What is thou? What is thou? Thou is not taking yourself seriously.

[09:27]

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, yea, though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I will fear no evil because I'm not taking myself too seriously. If you don't take yourself seriously, even though you're walking through the shadow, the valley of the shadow of death, and evil's all around you, if you don't take yourself seriously, too seriously, evil can't touch you. Evil can't overwhelm you. And you don't, you're not the great, you know, knight in shining armor, dragon killer. You don't destroy the evil. Evil's all around. doesn't touch you, you don't touch it, you're on peaceful turns with evil. You don't destroy it, but it doesn't take effect. And everybody with you who you can teach how to not take themselves seriously, they also let be touched by evil and they also will touch evil.

[10:36]

You let evil be evil. Evil like everything else, cannot be put in the category of existence. But that doesn't mean you can say evil doesn't exist. That's not right either. Evil, you can say evil does not exist, and you can say it, but it's not right to put it in the category of it does exist, and it would be wrong to say it doesn't exist. Evil appears all over the place, but it's not graspable in the category of existence or non-existence. because it doesn't belong in any of those categories, it is all-pervasive and all-inclusive. There's nothing that stops evil, nothing hinders evil, and evil doesn't hinder anything. But if you take yourself seriously, evil will possess you.

[11:38]

And wherever you are, Whenever it is, as soon as you take yourself seriously, evil finds a home. Good is also neither existent nor nonexistent and is all-pervasive and all-inclusive. But when we don't take ourselves too seriously, good is non-existent and functional. But also, good doesn't overwhelm the person, and the person doesn't destroy good. Good is just a lie, and evil has no effect. So, this is called refrain from evil, or as I said last night, reframe evil. Reframe it. Put it in a new perspective. Namely, realize that you ain't going to get away from it, and if you do, it likes to attack from the back. What you do is you be upright with evil.

[12:42]

Upright. You don't lean into it. You don't lean away from it. You don't say it exists. You don't say it doesn't exist. Just be quiet. Respectful. Respectfully. See a little evil? Okay, look again. Evil's also a mystery. You try to package it. It's gotcha. And if you try to package it, you're not upright. And again, you're taking yourself too seriously. You think you're the packager. I can package evil. Sure you can, but if you do, it's got you. Even to say I can't package evil is going a little far. Just be quiet and still pay attention. And if you are, the causes and conditions of evil will be manifesting according to some pattern they'll appear and disappear before you, around you, you'll see them they'll come to you and all the patterns of evil that you have denied or betrayed or abandoned they'll come back for you to study again but you do not need to fear these lessons these lessons about the functioning of evil they're there for you to learn from so

[14:06]

If you're upright, you can do the study. So, as I said a million ago, to be upright, right where you are, is enlightenment. And enlightenment is to study what's happening. Enlightenment is to study the dependent core rising of evil, the dependent core rising of enlightenment, the dependent core rising of birth and death, the dependent core rising of the self. And when upright, all the lessons, all the causes and conditions come and show you, right in deep, they show you how they work. You can see how evil works. You can see how good works. You can see how the self is created. You can see how when you have a, when you fold the self, how, and try to do things from the self, how that creates karma and entanglement and the causes and conditions for evil. You can see how when all things come forward and then there's you, how that creates realization and freedom.

[15:15]

You can see how you can switch from the side of walking around with a self and putting it on things, how that disturbs things and causes pain, and how when you study that carefully, and see how you do that and see how much trouble it causes and how seriously you're taking yourself and how it creates all this pain how it could turn and you can forget it and then suddenly everything comes forward and then there's you and you're awake you can see that stuff if you just be present without holding on to knowing or not knowing who you are and just No one can say. So that's a summary about fearing your own evil. And also, again, this is to become intimate with evil.

[16:26]

If you're intimate with evil, it can't hurt you, and you can't hurt it. But if you're a little bit away from evil, like, you know, a tiny bit away from evil, if there's you, evil's a little bit away, or even worse, long ways away. The farther away it is, the more momentum it can build up on you. Even if it's a tiny bit away, it can hurt you. But when it's completely intimate, it can't hurt you. But it's hard to not have the slightest bit of deviation, just like it's hard to be completely present, to completely accept your situation and completely give all your energies to the situation. It's fun to do that because we think we have an alternative. But the encouragement of the ancestors is to totally always devote your energies to a way that directly indicates complete realization.

[17:35]

What is the way that completely indicates complete realization? Be upright. In other words, be Buddha. And then, watch the show. Watch evil, for example. And as Buddha, you're intimate with evil. As Buddha, intimate with good. And to be intimate with evil, which all Buddhas are intimate with evil. All Buddhas are intimate with evil. Buddhas are not the slightest bit distant from evil. And being intimate with evil is called refraining from evil. Being intimate with good is called practicing good. Being intimate with evil and intimate with good is called saving all beings. Being intimate with evil is not killing. And so if we want to help all beings before ourselves, we must be intimate with everything.

[18:52]

Everything. And the way to be intimate with everything is to be intimate with this. That's happening right now. And each of you have your own this to be intimate with, so you're already a success. Unless you hesitate a tiny bit. or a lot, and then you're a total failure. However, if you admit it, you're right, and you just inhabit your situation of failure, and you're Buddha again. So, that's my summary. Do you have any questions before I go? Yes? I'm not clear what distinguishes being intimate with evil from being intimate with good. What distinguishes it then? Same thing. Why refrain from evil then and do good and not the other way around? Why refrain from evil and what?

[19:58]

Then if they're both the same thing, why refrain from evil and do good? Why not refrain from good and do evil? No, no, you didn't refrain. You refrain from evil and do good. You do both. It's not either or. If you're intimate with both of them, what distinguishes good from evil? What's the difference between good and evil? Yes. Oh, well, evil is like taking yourself seriously. You know, that's evil. Take yourself too seriously, that's evil. Take yourself too seriously is evil. It's evil, it's evil, it's evil. However, there really is no such thing as taking yourself too seriously. It doesn't exist or not exist, but that's what evil is, is taking yourself too seriously. And when you take yourself too seriously, you know what you do? You know what you do? You steal. You kill. You lie. You miss your sexuality. Okay. So I go on? No. Okay. That's what you mean by evil. However, killing does not exist in this, you know, you can't say killing exists.

[21:04]

Killing cannot be established. But also you can't say killing doesn't exist. Killing is all pervasive. Okay. However, you can refrain from it. if you don't take yourself seriously. In other words, you can make sure that evil takes no effect if you refrain from it. Good is not the same as evil. Good is not taking yourself seriously. And then when you don't take yourself seriously, you don't kill, you don't steal, you're kind to everyone, you're generous, you protect life, You admit your mistakes. When you're evil, you take yourself too so seriously, you don't admit your mistakes. When you're evil, you do evil, make mistakes, you kill, steal, and so on, and you don't admit any of it. Because you're taking, you're too important to admit that you do these things. Also, too busy doing your things to admit them. I've got better things to do than admit my problems. I don't have any anyway, but if I did, I'd still be too busy.

[22:04]

This is called taking yourself really seriously. But if you don't take yourself seriously, you're willing to do kind of petty stuff like admit that you just killed, steal, lied, cheated, connived, hated, thought of killing more. If you're not taking yourself seriously, you're willing to do such petty Buddhist work. So good is what makes people happy, free, in touch with their vitality, and also help people face the problems they've got to face in order to be upright. Because most of us don't know how to be upright, so we've got to, like, make about a million trillion errors to figure out what upright is. You have to catch yourself at leaning zillions of times before you kind of get in the hang of it. If I can ask one more question, it just seems contradictory to me that you're intimate with good and you're intimate with evil. I don't understand the difference between being intimate with good and intimate with evil.

[23:07]

Why being intimate with evil has... If you're intimate with evil, it negates evil. Or if you're intimate with good, it brings forth good. No, no. Intimate with evil doesn't negate evil. No. It just doesn't take any effect. Okay. But then if you're intimate with good, it brings forth good? Intimate with good is good. Intimate with evil is avoiding evil. Okay, so let's say, what's evil? Okay, what's evil? Taking yourself too seriously, okay? Let's start with that. If you're intimate with taking yourself too seriously, guess what that is? Guess what being intimate with taking yourself too seriously is? That's not taking yourself very seriously. People who touch themselves seriously will not be bothering being intimate with evil. such a thing as the fact that they're taking themselves seriously. That's not very important to people who take themselves seriously. And to notice how arrogant and self-righteous they are is not really that interesting to them.

[24:08]

They've got more important things to do than to notice what they're doing. Okay? So when you're intimate with evil, you don't destroy it. You don't negate it. You kind of like disarm it. You're kind of like, you know, you defang it, in a sense. Because, in fact, being intimate with it, you're not like using it. You don't like use evil. You can't use it. That's a lot you can do. Then use it. And also to destroy it would also be taking yourself too seriously. To you is taking yourself too seriously. To try to stop is taking yourself too seriously. But intimacy with it is like doing your meditation work. It's like admitting what's happening. So if you notice that you're taking yourself seriously and you're being mindful and aware, this is not taking yourself very seriously. This is like doing your work as a kind of like, I don't know what, Buddhist worker, meditation worker.

[25:10]

In other words, you're doing your job of paying attention to what you're up to and you notice all the time, probably, that you're taking yourself seriously. But noticing that is not taking yourself seriously. Good is you're intimate with good, you're intimate with giving. Okay? Intimate with it. Well, it doesn't mean, when you're intimate with it, it doesn't mean you, at that point that you're intimate with generosity and giving, it isn't even a you give. You don't take yourself so seriously to say, I give. I mean, I'm talking about when you're intimate. When you first start practicing giving, when you're not so intimate with it, when you're here and giving's over there, you do the giving, at that point, you're not intimate with it. But when you get intimate with the practice of giving, you're not taking yourself so seriously as to think you do the practice. The giving just happens. Also, patience. When you're intimate with patience, there's patience, but it's not like I'm doing the patience. which also makes patience a lot easier if you're not taking yourself so seriously, because when people slap you, spit on you, and insult you, if you take yourself seriously, it's a lot more painful.

[26:18]

So all the practices are good, giving, generosity, observing the precepts, and when you observe the precepts, noticing your errors in the precepts, concentration, enthusiasm, wisdom, all these practices, you're intimate with them. And first of all, you approach them and try to do them, which is good. When you're intimate, you're non-dual with the practice. You are generosity. You are kindness. You are wisdom. You are concentration. You are ethics. That's intimacy with good. Of course, then, if you do these first two, you also save all beings. Because you demonstrate to beings how they refrain from evil and how they practice good. They see you doing it. And so if they like it, they can sort of say, well, how do you do it? And you say, I don't know. But you don't take yourself very seriously. You don't really know how you're doing it. And so then they wander off and come back a couple of years and look again. But little by little, they may notice what you're doing.

[27:24]

I mean, you can't really show them exactly. You just do it. And they kind of like, they pick it up if they want to, if they don't take themselves too seriously. Does that make any sense? It makes sense to me. Yes. Just to make sure I understand, it sounds like you're saying that good and evil are not objective states, that they relate to the right experience of the soul. When you say they're not objective states, what do you mean by not objective states? I mean, why not do they relate to the way one experiences oneself? Yes, yes. Good and evil are intimately related with with us, how we are, how we understand. So if you don't understand yourself, if you take yourself too seriously, that's evil. You think you're a big shot, you think you can kill, you know, you can kill, I don't know what, ants, dogs,

[28:28]

Maybe people, if you don't like them, but they're not good, according to your definition, you can tell. So you think you're pretty hot-stuck. You can tell who's good and who's bad, who should live and who dies. So you do all this stuff that murder people. You can also tell who's stuff to confiscate and where it should go. Maybe it should go to your house and your family. You can tell what countries to conquer. You know, and, you know, how much you should mutilate the population because you know that you take yourself seriously. So self-righteousness, arrogance, you know, this is evil. However, you can't exactly say it's over there what it is because it's all mixed up. You know, it's not like something that really you can say exists. If it really existed, then we'd have to live with it. You know, let them have to sort of like say, well, there it is. But it doesn't actually, it can't actually be established as a reality. But if you reject it, then it takes you over. So it's very, everything, evil and everything, all things are very subtle and mysterious.

[29:33]

And if you're upright, you can live with them in peace. So the way to live in peace with evil is to be upright with it. And then it won't hurt you or anybody else. And good is the same. If good is separate from you, you also get in trouble with that, too. So everything's interconnected. That's what we mean by when you're upright, you see the dependent core arising of evil, the dependent core arising of good. How all the causes and conditions create evil, the causes and conditions of evil are different from the causes and conditions of good. The causes and conditions of cyclic birth and death and bondage are different from the causes and conditions of liberation. The causes and conditions of liberation are being upright. And being upright is not just what you do, it's what you do in a particular situation at this moment. And then the whole situation changes and you're upright in a new situation. So your uprightness is totally created by the circumstances.

[30:36]

And when you are totally created by the circumstances, you can't be anything but that. If you were deciding to be upright on your own, then you could be upright this way and upright that way but this is not this is again taking yourself too seriously that's not upright upright is when everything comes together and makes you just like you are and you go with that that's the dependent polarizing of you and that's the dependent polarizing of you like even and you can never move the slightest bit from that and if you appreciate that you are in alignment with reality and that's good and it refrains your needle, and it saves all bees, and that's not killing and so on. You will never kill in that state. And you will teach others how to not kill, the meaning of not kill. Okay.

[31:39]

Any other questions? Yes. Same thing. Yes. If you don't do Zazen? Well, tell me, if you don't do Zazen, what do you do? No, but tell me what you're talking about. Don't do Zazen, what is that? Tell me about it. I'll tell you about it. Huh? You don't sit. You don't sit? Sit in the center? You mean, if you're outside of the Zen or standing outside of the Zen? So let's say you're a Christian praying. Let's say you're a Christian praying, okay? I'm a Christian praying. I am a Christian praying. Let's say I'm saying, let's say I'm saying. What is that? I'm saying. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I must hear no evil for thou art making. And if I really do that prayer with my whole being, I'm upright.

[32:42]

What's prayer of atheists? Prayer of atheists, I don't know what atheists are, but let's say atheists are, let's do the prayer of, okay, I stand here right now thinking that there's no God. No, I stand here now taking the position that God belongs in the category of non-existent. That's the position I'm in. And I'm in that position, and I accept that position, and I choose to be in that position, And if I do that with my whole being, I will notice the causes and conditions of that situation, and I will notice how taking that position and the dependent core rising of taking myself too seriously. So I'm not saying all atheists... If atheists say God belongs in the category of non-existence, then I would say that atheists are taking themselves too seriously. That they could take God and took God in the category of non-existence. I don't know if those atheists are, but if that's what they are,

[33:44]

then if they were present with that, okay, and notice how that caused all the, what disturbance and turbulence it causes to take anything, including God. Actually, it doesn't cause, as far as I know, it doesn't cause any more disturbance to put God in the category of not existing than it does to put Kern in the category of not existing. You know, could you imagine if I put you in a category of not existing? What that would be? Let's say I say current doesn't exist. Can I really believe that? Would that cause a... What? Would that cause a turbulence in the world? Pardon? If you thought that it would also create some turbulence, also if you see now, if I think current exists, it also causes turbulence.

[34:46]

If I put you in the category of resistance, I look over there and I think that exists. That creates turbulence. If I would say you don't exist, that creates turbulence and suffering. Anything you put in that category will cause disturbance. And also, anything you put in that category means that you think that you can do that. And most people go around doing this without noticing that they think that they can do that, that they can put people in various categories and get by with it. And so they try it. But if you're upright, you'll notice how much trouble that causes you, not to mention your loved ones, not to mention what you just put in it. Anything you put in that category, you kill. If I put you in a category of non-existence, of course I kill you. And I say, you're not, you're gone. If I put you in a category of existence, I also kill you. So I'm just saying, it isn't that an atheist is damned forever, because if they would be upright in their categorizations, in their erratic categorizations, And notice what happens.

[35:48]

They would see the causes and conditions of their misery and their bondage and they would be liberated. And they would stop taking that position and become a Buddha. That is Zazen. What I just described is Zazen. Zazen has nothing to do with sitting in that Zendo with your life's boss. Nothing to do with it. But I like to go up there and cross my legs and say, but to me, it is a ritual about enlightenment. It's a ritual that I like to do. Some people don't. You like to, too, I guess, sometimes. But our ritual, when you're not doing that ritual, you can do some other ritual called work in the kitchen, called go in and battle in the yurt. I mean, you must. Zazen is that you're upright in your position just as you are without knowing anything.

[36:52]

Now, you do think, oh, I'm in a yurt and it's nighttime and my name's Red. You think that, but you don't know that. I mean, if I grab that stuff, then it's not Zazen. But to let that stuff fly around me and not reach me, it may not reach it, that's Zazen. That's the mind which has no abode, that's Zazen. Zazen is totally formless. And therefore, we can do this little ritual of sitting in a zander with our lace cross to celebrate the formless. And let's do it a lot, shall we? Because it's so much fun to celebrate the formless sight of enlightenment with this wonderful yoga posture. But if you don't have time to do that, celebrate it in some other way. Nobody knows what Zazen is. I said what it was, but that doesn't mean I know it. Nobody knows what Zazen means. Nobody. I'm talking about, like, nobody. And the people who you most suspect of knowing it, those are the ones who most emphatically say, I don't know.

[37:57]

And now I laugh. But I'm pretty sure my friends don't know either. So the Buddhas have said to us, we don't know what zazen is. Each one of us doesn't know. All of us together don't know. We don't know what it is. However, we are totally devoted to it. Just like my daughter. I don't know what she is, but I'm totally devoted to it. Although I slip and slide and can't face my devotion sometimes and miss a lot of chances, which I regret, I'm still totally devoted. And I don't know what she is. And I'm totally devoted to you. And I don't know who you are either. And you also know that Buddhists know who you are either. And you don't know who you are either. But anybody who thinks they know who current is, is taking themselves too seriously. Which is fine. And notice what that does for you. Notice what it does to you to go around thinking you know who somebody is.

[39:01]

Notice what kind of life that is. Notice how diminishing that is. Notice how squelching. Notice how that covers your aliveness. Okay? Notice how if you don't do that, you start opening up to your anxiety and your fear and all that stuff. And how can you open to that? Underneath that is your life. Notice. And the best way to notice is to be upright. And if you're upright, gradually the stuff you've been hiding from will walk out in front of you and say, hi. And then you might say, oh, and now I'm doing zazen, which is fine. You can say you're doing zazen, but you don't know what it is. You can go to the zen hill and sit there and say, I'm doing zazen, but still not know what it is. You could practice zen. You can say you're practicing Zen, but you don't know what it is. You can also say you're not practicing Zen.

[40:02]

You still don't know what it is. It's a free country. Freedom of speech. Any other questions? Yes? What's knowledge? I don't know. I didn't say I have no idea about what knowing is. But you didn't ask me what my idea of it was. You asked me what it was. Pay attention to what you're saying. I'm What's your idea? Oh, my idea is to take a concept and say that it's real. Okay.

[41:16]

I don't know what that is. And I certainly don't think that's the truth. to take one of my fantasies and attribute reality to it. But that's how I envision the process of knowing. And zazen is not about that. Zazen is to be calm without getting into that. Also without rejecting it. Rejecting is also giving you to it. Just have all this kind of psychic processing going on, all these perceptions of images and concepts and attributing reality and falsehood to them. This is going on all around you all the time. This stuff's happening. It's always going to happen. And even if you should happen to stop under some kind of sedation or something, other people would keep it going. And as soon as you come out of the sedation, you'll get trance, you're right back into it again. But a Buddha, in the middle of all that, just is upright and unfooled by it. but also it doesn't mean nothing to diminish it or cut it tranquilize it or jazz it up let alone it's got plenty of life don't worry about it so you study the dependent core risings of that you watch the dependent core rising of images you watch how that works

[42:27]

what effects that has. Then you watch the dependable rising in images and attributing reality to it, causing the turbulence and disturbance and self-righteousness that causes, and all the precepts break around that. You watch all this stuff. Yes? What? The language is meaningful. Meaningful? Yes. You just asked me something in language, right? I did ask me something in language. Okay. And my answer is no. However, what is your concept? What is your idea? What meaning is it? Happiness and misery. Body, body, life. These are meanings. Language is useful? Language be useful? Yes. It can liberate people from language. which is how people are in bondage. They're in bondage by language in which they say, I'm important, or I exist, and this is true, and that's false, and that exists, and that doesn't.

[43:38]

This is language. That's how you're in bondage. So I'm trying to use language to interface with language to cause beings to turn around the way they're using language. So I'm saying things like, take yourself seriously, and see what that does. So if the meaning is not in the language, and yet the effort that I'm making with these words can evoke the meaning. It's primarily energy, but energy transmitted into words in order to bring forth what's important in the end of happiness. What the bodhisattva vow is not, I vow to say something cool, but to get people to talk differently. It's I vow to work for people to be happy. And people's misery is very language-bound, so you use language to interact with their language to release them. Once they're released, they will talk.

[44:39]

But the talking will come from a place where there's no words. You know, it's uncreated space, but it talks. It talks because the uncreated space wants to help people. And people are talking to themselves all the time. They go, it exists, it doesn't exist. This is good, this is bad. That's Zazen, that's not Zazen. You know, God exists and doesn't. You know, and really is that way. No, she's not. This is the kind of language that we're in, which is torment, constant torment and anxiety. Constant torment and anxiety. If you believe that stuff, then most people do so. There's this other language coming out saying, you're taking yourself too seriously. You're attributing reality to your own thinking, and so on. Anything else? Yes.

[45:41]

Not taking yourself seriously enough is taking yourself too seriously. There's a middle ground. Yeah, it's called the middle way. The Buddha way is taking yourself not too seriously. But some people, the way they take themselves too seriously is they think, boy, I am one bad dude. I've got to, like, you know, bring myself in and make myself into a mouse because I'm, like, super powerful, you know, and I'm disturbing the whole universe. And you're going to bust me for it. So that's taking yourself too seriously, so then you try to make yourself, you know, less you try to make yourself smaller and smaller because you think yourself to pay shock. That's taking yourself too seriously. Actually, the way you are actually doesn't need to increase or decrease, but to try to increase and decrease is taking yourself too seriously. You can think about it, but like to think what you're thinking about it applies to anything. That's taking your thinking too seriously, which is your thinking.

[46:45]

how the software created to help you get in a position of taking such a situation so you can help others understand the profit and so on. Yes? Are the situation for either useful on each episode of the United States? Uh, well, watch. I know something. Is that useful or meaningful? To me, to me, to me. Well, I know. Right. So, so I guess, I guess I wasn't, in your opinion, useful or meaningful. But watch carefully. Okay. So did you just judge it not useful or meaningful? My impulsive reaction here was that it wasn't particularly useful to you. Right. But is that what's useful or meaningful to you, what you think is useful or meaningful? I'm not going to say either what's useful or meaningful.

[47:51]

And yet, you just said it was useful or meaningful. And it seemed like you believed it. Actually, I didn't see it for me. I don't think I had an opiate It seems to me not to be useful or meaningful. Right. And I'm not trying to prove that it was useful or meaningful or that it wasn't useful or meaningful, but I am inquiring into the fact of how you processed it. Right. And it sounds to me that although you said it doesn't seem useful or meaningful, I felt that you felt that that was true, that it wasn't useful or meaningful, even though you also said you didn't know what that was. Well, I mean, what would it be? What are you doing?

[48:57]

Trying to hear yourself think? I'm trying to hear myself think. Well, you know, you're closing your eyes and kind of looking out towards the building. You sound like you're trying to look into yourself and listen to yourself think a little bit, will you? Something like that. Yeah. So what's important here is that you keep track of what you're thinking, and then you also try to listen to me back and forth. If you can do that, you'll understand. And that's uprightness, that you can live in that place there. So go ahead now, do your thing. Being aware of what you think. Yeah, but also listen to me. And I'll listen to you. Can you tell what you're thinking now? You've got to clarify that, okay? And then listen to me. See if you can keep in touch with what you've got going and what I've got going, and then that would be useful.

[50:07]

That will be your upright use. And it's in that state that you will find needing. Are you there? Good. Me too. I'm trying to do that too. So how's that too? Yeah, it is kind of dynamic, isn't it? Kind of intense. Yeah. This is what I recommend, the way you study. This is our previous. Does it feel warm? I can see it being like... This is the way we should talk, you see. But it's hard. It's hard for you to, like, listen to these penetrating things I'm saying and also, like, keep track of yourself.

[51:09]

So then you kind of go on. You need to maybe go back a little bit into yourself to see what's going on, which is fine. But then if you go away too long, I'm going to knock on the door again and say, where are you? And you can tell me I need more time to find my own voice again. And I'll say, okay. I will anyway. When you find it, then look back at me and I have more to say. You keep going like this until you can... stay with your thing and listen to me, and I can stay with my thing and listen to you. In this way, we... The thing that makes me sadly anxious is that there's a certain vertigo I get about words. Yes, uh-huh. That, you know, when you don't talk to me, you know, and the time thing is penetrating to time to see what words are going to be about. And so it's... And I... I tend to do a fair amount of my thinking in words, although I'm sort of aware of there and not really anchor on to anything. But it's hard sometimes to do it.

[52:12]

I can't quite get the balance on your words and I can't put the balance on my words to see how they're going to look up to you. So it's hard to do this. I have to think sometimes that there isn't some sort of shared understanding about the word. And it's not clear to me what that understanding would be. Right, but the anxiety is probably not going to try to limit the anxiety. The anxiety is not a sign that you should start manipulating. the ballast of the words. It's more like the anxiety is a sign of some sense of separation between us. And rather than try to get me to talk differently or increase ballast or something like that, if you try to manipulate the situation at all in order to reduce the anxiety, that will just create more anxiety. Or you will have to retreat into yourself or listen to me.

[53:17]

I didn't feel like I was trying to get in a little bit while I was trying to go into anxiety and figure out what it was. When I heard you say, I heard you say you kind of wanted to clarify some things to have more ballast in words. What did you mean? I said that I got anxious because, because But the words don't seem to be forgotten to anything. It's a very hard topic. Okay, so I understand that. But I thought, maybe you didn't mean this, that you thought things would go better if the words did hook onto something. No, I... Okay, no, I just... I mean, in trying to do what you were talking about, with the case after you get into my thoughts, It wasn't all three and what relationship was between the words, in my thoughts, the words you were speaking.

[54:21]

And so when I was asking you questions, I was trying to gain some clarity as to what relationship was between words as I use them and as I think them and the words that you were speaking. Are you taking the following answer in this? Yeah. Yeah. OK. And it's okay that you did that, okay? That you're trying to clarify what I was meaning. That's fine, okay? I'm just saying that the anxiety won't be reduced by clarifying these things. I'm not... You're not trying... I don't know. I'm not sure what I would be. I'm not sure what you're saying. I was... In some way, I was new. I don't know. I don't know what my relationship to it was. I wouldn't have. The anxiety is something that should also be listened to. Right. It's not what I'm saying. It's not what you're saying. But the anxiety is almost more important than what either one of those are saying. You can ask me questions and clarify. In the midst of the anxiety, it's fine to, you know, roller skate or ask me questions. Or tell me what you think worries me.

[55:22]

All that's fine. But the anxiety is the most important thing in the conversation. Because the anxiety is new information over and above what you and I are saying. The anxiety is saying that one or both of us are a little off. And the anxiety is telling you just how. So if you can be upright in the anxiety and still in that uprightness, you still can speak and say, I'd like to clarify a few terms and watch the anxiety while you speak, listen to the anxiety at the same time. Because the anxiety is giving you some information that neither one of us are putting out there. It's a gift of our relationship. And it's giving you a secret. Behind the anxiety is our real relationship. So I would recommend that you don't try to do anything to make the anxiety go away. Make that almost more important than the words we're saying.

[56:24]

And the vertigo, too, is more important than what I'm saying. But in response to the vertigo, it's fine to try to clarify terms, but not to make the vertigo go away. But the vertigo is telling you that you're not balanced. that you're, you know, that you're spinning or, you know, you're tilting, you're off balance, right? So then how do you get balanced in a situation? One way is to go back and just see how you check out the vertigo for a little while. And if you keep balancing, you come back out and play with me. Now I say something and you feel off balance again, go back in. But not to reduce it, but because the vertigo is saying, are you off balance? Are you too much over on your side? I'm off balance or you're off balance and that's why I reached out to find it. Well, you know, it's really, it's not one or both of them. But it's just that you need to check out what is your experience, you need to be in your vertical.

[57:32]

So the uprightness is to be willing to have vertigo when you've got it and to choose the vertigo while it's happening. Then you will understand the causes and conditions of vertigo. It's not like you have vertigo and I don't, although I might not have it, but it's not like you're off and I'm not. The reality of the situation is we are inseparable. Each of us has to check out our place. I hope you can follow all that. That's kind of... Yeah. Okay. Shall we stop soon? Want to sing a song with me from this time? Okay. Okay. You want that one? Always sit by my side if you love me Do not hasten to be near you But remember the Tosahara Valley And the girl who loves you so true Now they say you are leaving this valley We will miss your bright eyes and sweet smile For they say you are taking the sunshine

[59:00]

That is right in our path for a while.

[59:04]

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