We could, of course, spend a great deal more time on the refuges, but I thought maybe we'd just go ahead and start talking about these three collective pure precepts. Is that what they're called in this sheet? Three collective pure precepts. So these are very old and basic precepts. Each of these three contain those 10 great precepts. And each of the 10 contain the other nine.

[01:04]

These things are articulated in order to help us get access, but they're not really separate. These three precepts, just like the refuges, are not really separate. Like that one way of looking at them, the single-bodied triple treasure, that first way of looking at them on this card sheet, they're really one thing, too. There's really just one jewel. And then these three are just articulations. Are they indivisible? also, but they're broken out to give us access to understanding the teaching. And they're old. They appear in some of the earliest written versions of the expression of the Buddha's Way. They don't say actually that all Buddhas have taught all the different monastic systems.

[02:13]

But they do say that all Buddhas have taught these three, or have taught by means of using these three. And there's a blackboard over there. I can just say these things, and then you can tell me if you want me to go over and write them down. So it's interesting. I find it interesting to... to say the Sanskrit of these. And if you want me to write it down, I'll go write it down. The first of the three is called, well, in the early rendition they say, avoid evil. But the usual way it's actually said is not too much to avoid evil. But in terms of speaking of a precept, so instead of saying, avoid evil, do good, and save beings, okay?

[03:16]

Avoid evil, practice good, and save beings. But in terms of the names of these three types of teachings, in terms of calling them precepts, the first one is called the precept of... you know, practicing those things which are conducive to liberation, which is pratimoksha samvara, sila. The next one is the sila, the precept of amassing all wholesome or all good things, which is sarva... kushala-dharma-samgraha-shila, all wholesome things assembled precept.

[04:18]

And the next one is the precept of purifying all beings, or you might say working through and maturing all beings. which is sattva-kriya-shila, or sarva-sattva-kriya-shila. All sattva, all beings, kriya means to clean or to work, like you may have heard of kriya yoga, to work, to mature, to exercise, all beings, shila, which means precept. So it's patimoksha-samvara-shila, and... sarva-kusala-dharma-samgraha-sila and sarva-sattva-kriya-sila. Okay? Can I write them down? Huh?

[05:20]

Can you write them down, you think? You know, prati-moksha? Prati means conducive or towards. Moksha means to turn or liberation, like turning the face. Sambhara is a discipline. And sila is precept. And can you read that? It's pretty light, but you can read it. Next one is sarva-kusala-dharma-samgraha. Sarva means all. Kushala means wholesome or skillful or good. And dharma is all things. And samgraha means to gather together.

[06:22]

What is sarva? Sarva is all. Huh? All. All. Wholesome things. Assemble or gather. Precept. Amen. So prati is conducive to or towards moksha, liberation. Sambhara means discipline.

[07:32]

And sarva-sattva. Yeah. There's two Ts in sattva. OK, so there they are. Oh, all beings mature or purify or work out

[08:54]

So these are the names of the precepts that go with avoiding evil, doing good and benefiting beings, or clarifying the mind. And Pratimoksha is, there's eight types of Pratimoksha. Pratimoksha are sometimes considered to be regulations. But there's infinite number of pratimoksas probably. But there's eight standard types. There's a set of ten precepts for laymen and laywomen. There's a set of precepts for fully ordained monks and fully ordained male monks and fully ordained female monks. There's a set for novice male monks and novice female monks. And there's a set for... like fasting or temporary monastic, when lay people go to the monastery for a short time. So there's a different set of regulations.

[10:15]

So in some sense, the ten precepts that followed could be seen in some sense as an example of pratyamoksas. But other things can also be considered pratyamoksas, which I'll point out. So you said pratimoksha means conducive, so literally it means conducive to liberation, but kind of in practice that word is used to apply to regulations? Yeah, like there's a book, probably you can find books that say, you know, on the cover they'll say pratimoksha, like they'll say bhikkhu pratimoksha, the pratimoksha for monks, and you open up there and there's 227 rules for them to follow, or 250 rules, or whatever. regulations that they follow. Regulations, in other words, generally speaking, a fully ordained monk in this monastery or this monastic tradition followed these rules. They received these rules and practiced these rules, and they're accountable for these regulations.

[11:18]

This is the regular way they behave. And then if there's some irregularity, then they're supposed to confess that irregularity. And then depending on which irregularity is, there's a regular response to that irregularity. Sometimes a regular response is rejection. Sometimes a regular response is something else. Rejection means they're out of the monster? Yeah, they're demunked. So when you say confess, it's actually sort of like a Catholic confession? They do it in front of the whole group, monthly. We have this Pratimoksha. We have this, what it's called, it's called Upasatha ceremony. They do it on a full moon and new moon. They recite the precepts and they say to anybody, they recite the regulations and they say, was anybody irregular? And if nobody says anything, they ask a second time and a third time.

[12:19]

They say, now we've asked three times, so we assume that means nobody's been irregular. And if nobody says anything, then somebody else may say, I think, excuse me, but I think I saw somebody else being irregular. This is not just confession. Well, sometimes you confess for other people. And anyway, then if the person says, oh, yeah, that's true, I did that, that's right, then they have a regular response to that. If the person has an argument, then they have a reconciliation process, which is also regularized. You keep using the word regular from regulation, but also didn't you say once that regulation comes from Latin regula, the trellis? The root, the Greek root of the word for regula, The Greek root has the etymology for a trellis. So this is the regular thing, but it has meaning like a trellis is a regular thing. It has a certain structure. But what grows on the trellis, of course, is not shaped like the trellis.

[13:21]

It uses the trellis, but actually the life of a practitioner is not rectangular turns and so on. Maybe it might follow the line of the trellis, it might wrap around the trellis or something, so it's related to it. But sometimes it goes out in mid-air and swings into various creative patterns. So finally you have this plant which is built on the trellis but doesn't look like a trellis. So the life of a Buddhist does not look like the rule, but they use the rule as a point of support. If a wisteria or something goes too far from the trellis, it'll just eventually, by gravity, fall down, which is okay, but then it starts, you know, it's just a heap of wisteria on the ground, and it will die eventually, I would guess. I've never seen a wisteria tree without some support. I think we just sort of get entangled with this stuff and start composting.

[14:23]

Of course, you can say it'll start composting eventually on the trellis, too. So the idea anyway is that the trellis provides space and support for a luxuriant growth. And you can have probably bigger wisteria trees with the aid of the trellis than you can if they just sort of plant one and see what it does of climbing up on itself, on its own habits of going for light and climbing on the other parts that are going for the light. Yes? Was it not part of the tradition on which these temples were founded to have the Confession? What temples? Well, Green Dragon Temple, the San Francisco Zen Center, and so on. The tradition from Suzuki Roshi.

[15:26]

that tradition didn't include this sort of confession every fortnight? In the Mahayana, the confession, specific personal confession of personal problems is usually done one-to-one rather than in public. Someone said that doksan, the origin of doksan is confession. to another person in the Mahayana. So in Mahayana, I think, anyway, in Zen and the Zen tradition, I haven't heard of people doing public confession of specific deeds. We do a generalized confession of infinite number of transgressions. There's too many to mention in the Mahayana. But if there's something particular you need to mention, even though there's infinite, you think there's one particular one you have to mention, then you go into a more private situation and you say what it is.

[16:35]

Now, the way that these are stated in this particular tradition within the Mahayana, the one we have, this one we've been reading, is it says... Each one it says, fulfilling, fulfilling, fulfilling. The precept of fulfilling rules and laws. And the precept of fulfilling wholesome dharmas. And the precept of fulfilling all beings. And this character, the Chinese character for fulfilling is a very interesting character. which I told you about at the beginning of Sashin a couple of times. And I'll write this in for you. I'll write it all the way to you.

[17:53]

This part here means hand. And this part here, it's like this. Right here, there's three of those. It means ear. Now, the word for sashin is this character, this character. It means mind or heart. So this character, in Japanese, is satsu. goes with this character in Japanese, shin. So it's set when you have a tsu at the end, at the Japanese character, tsu, followed by some other character. And if you don't say tsu, you double with the consonant of the next character. So if it's tsu, set, tsu, shin, then you say seshin. So seshin, rather than set shin. What is set? One of the meanings of Setsu is gathering.

[19:36]

So Sesshin is a time to gather the mind. Some other meanings of Setsu are interesting too, though. And the meaning of Setsu is guide. Similar to gather is collect. Another one is oversee. Another one is condition or correct. Another one is nurse, nurture. Also assist and represent as an agent, to lend, to take, to assume responsibility, to hold and press, to execute, to rule.

[20:43]

And in Buddhism it means to save or accept sentient beings or to take in sentient beings with Buddha's compassion. And so she means all that really. And sentient beings means the people you're sitting with, but it also means your own mind, to nurture your own mind, to represent your own mind, to hold and press your own mind, to nurture your own mind, to accept your own mind with compassion, to have overlapping duties with your mind. to assume responsibility for your mind or your heart, to assist your heart, to correct your heart, to gather your heart. And here translated as fulfill. So you also do these things with you fulfill, you gather, you assume the responsibility for, you accept with compassion.

[21:54]

these rules and laws. And also the characters here are the actual, again the Japanese way of saying this is Setsu. This character here. Setsu what? Setsu what? Setsu Ritsu, gi. Ritsu means like rules, like these pratimoksha rules. And gi means ceremony, or ritual, or forms, or manners, or etiquette. And kai is a precept. So it's a precept of satsuing. the regulations, the regular commitments of the precepts, but also in addition various forms, rituals and ceremonies to fulfill these things which are conducive to enlightenment.

[23:17]

When you, if you first look at these things, you may think, oh, well, you may sort of like polarize or put these forms outside yourself and say, well, there's a sitting posture and there's bowing and there's offering incense and so on. And that those forms are conducive to enlightenment. But it's not so much that they are, but rather that when they're fulfilled or when they're nurtured or when they're gathered together in the proper way, that they're conducive. Or, as I was saying this morning, when you use these forms as a mode of full expression, then in that full expression we avoid evil. We avoid all evil. Now you might say, well, could I just fully express myself in some other form than these?

[24:29]

And would that avoid evil? And I kind of think, yes, it would. So what about these forms? These forms are transmitted forms so that in some ways it... Well, now that I think about it, I think that if you fully express yourself, I think you will wind up embodying these forms, I think you will wind up assuming these traditional yogic mudras. It may take some time that you would spontaneously, without any conscious awareness of being taught these forms, they would spontaneously occur to you in the fullness of your expression.

[25:47]

you would find yourself bowing down to the earth at some point. You would find your hands making mudras. You would find yourself sitting up straight. You would find yourself joining your palms and bowing to other people. Now, in addition to that, the likelihood that a human being will spontaneously, on her own, do what's necessary to fully express herself, the likelihood that that will happen is small. Or I should say, the likelihood that she will realize that she's doing this is small. It is rare. It does happen sometimes, like it happens sometimes to women in childbirth. There is, in the process of birth, I think, a pratimoksha.

[26:57]

There is a regular process going on there that is conducive to liberation. There is, I heard many times, that people at a certain point, more frequently than not, more frequently than usually happens in one's life, feel that they have no choice but to be present. Now we have now medications which can knock people out and so on, but aside from these kinds of drugging, drug experience, you know, drugging themselves to, you know, not be present, a lot of women have been present during childbirth and have experienced that as the greatest moment of their life because they were there. If they were there for anything like that, that would have been probably comparable, I would say. Now, to be present when something like that happens is quite a combination. To be present in witnessing birth and death, that's basically Buddhism right there.

[28:06]

So women have the chance sometimes of practicing Buddhism at a certain point or several points during the childbirth process. But then... Then after that, little by little, the baby lets up on them. After about three months, they, you know, you can spend a few minutes looking out the window. And the sashin, I've heard around three months, the sashin seems to lighten up a little bit. There seems to be rest periods when you can think of something else and you can dream of the past and future. But a lot of women say, hmm? After three months? Well, A lot of women say that the first three months is like the longest. I've heard, you know, Risa said too, that the first three months are like the longest session, is a three-month session. Is that you really can't, unless you have a, what do you call it? Not a, what nurse or a nanny, unless you have somebody that takes care of the baby. Well, you know, even a husband doesn't, you know, you don't really trust him.

[29:12]

Yeah. And the baby's so demanding that, you know, unless you get far away, it's... It's the same for the father to some extent sometimes. But anyway, not during the childbirth, of course. But there are situations like that that are conducive to liberation. That just happens spontaneously through a person's life. You know, walking along and suddenly slipping and falling off a cliff... you know, and catching yourself by a branch and hanging there by one hand for a while, that sometimes can be quite conducive to liberation. Things like this do happen to people, but they're rare. Yeah, we've heard of near-death experiences that they transform people, that people are converted because Near death means you're near death, right?

[30:14]

You're not kind of like, well, it was somewhere in the neighborhood. It was near. It was near. It was there and I was near. I was there and it was there. We were there together. And I was quite impressed being there. It was really something. It only lasted for a few seconds, but I was there. And, you know, when I was a kid, there was a TV show called You Are There. And they used to reenact these historical events, like one of them was Socrates taking Hemlock, Cleopatra snuggling up with a snake. Was it an asp? And they said, it's just exactly like it was then, except you are there. Cool. And that's the difference. It's just like it always is except you are there. Now, what is the likelihood of you being there? Well, if you have these forms of practice, the likelihood seems to be increased because if you're sitting in a zendo and there's a form that we agree upon and you're not there,

[31:25]

a person who has been hanging out in Zendos for 25 or 30 or 40 years can see this is just like all Zendos have been for thousands of years, except you aren't there. That's the only thing. Otherwise, it's just like the old days, except you aren't there. So then they touch you and say, okay, now here's a finger, now you can be there. This is like an ancient thing too, but now you're there. And you can say yourself too, hey, I'm just sitting just like Bodhidharma. I'm sitting just like Buddha. It's just like Buddha, except I'm not here. Or you can say, it's just like Buddha and I am here. or change what he called the intonation slightly, it's just like Buddha, and I am here. This is just like Buddhism, and on top of that, I am here. That's the difference. Now, you can do that any time of day or night.

[32:29]

In any situation, you can say, I am here. But there's something about these forms that sometimes promotes you noticing that the main thing is whether you're there or not. whether your expression is fully embodied, whether you're putting yourself into your body, speech and mind. So these forms offer that opportunity. And it could happen otherwise, but We're trying to do things which are conducive to this being present. This emphasizes the things that are conducive to being present, the things that are basically just forms of expression. Yes? It's very often that the practice is like a simulation of a lot of experiences where it naturally happens, like these near-death experiences, or like diseases, or like a lot of emotional pain, or whatever it is that comes up as an endo.

[33:37]

It tends to be very often like a setup. It's like a training ring where I can decide to do it, so I don't maybe need to, well, I don't know. all of that. I don't know if we really don't need to create it outside, but we have this idea of we have to use both. But it's kind of really connected. Yeah. And that relates to case 34 of the book of Serenity, which says, if you set up a single atom, the nation flourishes. However, there's problems in that, because that creates crafty statesmen and valiant generals. So the strong advantage of setting up temples and monastic systems and forms of posture and breathing is that practice can flourish. But then there's the administrative drawback. There's the organizational dangers, which worry the ancestors who have realized this presence.

[34:40]

and can practice it without the forms. So eventually the intention of Zen would be to bring that presence out of the Zen dome into the street and share it. That's why you have two more precepts. But the first part that this emphasizes is that avoiding evil, the essence of avoiding evil, and again evil means live backwards, right? Evil is live backwards. The way to avoid living backwards is through this full expression of these forms. Now, let's see, I don't know what to do here. I told this story before, I'll tell it again, that... There was, I think these are Japanese Zen monks.

[35:51]

One Zen monk's name was Tetsugyu, which means iron bull. And the other one's name was Chowon, which I can't remember what the character means. But anyway, they were Dharma friends. And one day, I think it was Tetsugyu was, yeah, Tetsugyu was serving tea to a samurai lord, the lord of Sendai. And he was using a bowl, an ancient bowl, an antique bowl that Lord Sendai had given to the monk Chon. So Chon was making tea. No, Tetsugyu was making tea in this antique tea bowl.

[36:53]

And Chon came to visit the tea party and came in and sat down. And then he hit the tea bowl with his ceremonial stick and broke it. And he said, this is the authentic bowl before birth. And iron bull, Tetsugyu, turned pale and almost fainted from his, you know, teabowl being broke, Ken. And Lord Sendai said that Chon, well, no, he didn't say that. Lord Sendai said, please have this, I think he said it to Tetsugyu, he said, please have this bowl glued back together and have a box made for it.

[37:56]

And I'd like to name this bowl the authentic bowl before birth and give it to my descendants. And one Zen teacher commented on this story and said that the one who broke the bowl only knew about the fact that, you know, the precious teaching changes. He didn't understand about how to transmit and carry on this precious teaching. In other words, he didn't understand that the precious teaching has continuity. But Sendai, Lord Sendai did. So, you know, it's not so much a problem that the bowl gets broken, because we can glue it back together and use it some more.

[39:01]

It's not so much a problem that these things, that these forms are even broken or done improperly because we can glue them back together and use the broken forms as a gift to the next generation. Stories of violations or breaking the precepts are and sometimes even more useful than an unbroken precept or an unbroken form. One Zen monk was asked by a master of the three aspects of Buddhist teaching, a scholar, asked him, is there any change in true suchness?

[40:05]

And he was expecting the Zen teacher, whose name was Ocean of Wisdom, he was expecting Ocean of Wisdom to say that true suchness does not change. But Ekai said, it changes. And the scholars said, Zen Master, you're wrong. And the Zen Master said, do you have true suchness? And the scholar said, yes, I do. And the Zen master said, if there is no change in true suchness, you are determined to be an ordinary monk forever. And then he gave a verse. The verse was, a good teacher turns the three poisons into the three

[41:12]

collective pure precepts. Turns the six consciousnesses into the six supernormal holy powers. Turns defilement into awakening. Turns ignorance into great wisdom. There is change in true suchness. If you are attached to are stuck in the view that true suchness does not change, then that is a view of people outside the Buddha way. If you are stuck in the view that true suchness does change, that also is an outside view." The scholar said, Master, you said before that there is change in true suchness.

[42:16]

Now you say that there is not change. Which is correct? And Ekai said, It's like someone who sees the true nature is like a wish-fulfilling jewel manifesting forms. It is correct to talk about changes. It is also correct to talk about no change. Those who have not seen the nature, the true nature, and hear that true suchness changes give rise to ideas of change. Those who hear that true suchness has no change give rise to ideas about no change. The scholar said, I now know that the Southern school cannot be measured. And Ekai said, this is the abode, he said, this is the abode of the laws of all Buddhas. This is the source of the laws of all Buddhas.

[43:19]

This is what this precept is about. So, these forms, these laws, Do they change? Yes. Do you get stuck in the view that they change? You shouldn't. Do they not change? Yes. Should you get stuck in that view? No. The place where ignorance turns to bodhi, this is the source of all these laws. The place where things transcend themselves. So these forms are forms to be done so thoroughly that they transcend themselves. These forms are opportunities to avoid evil by fulfilling them, by nurturing them, by being responsible for them, by executing them, by holding and pressing them,

[44:33]

by overseeing them, every possible way that you can do something completely. So at first I said, you know, any form that you use can be this way, but what is the likelihood that you're going to train yourself when forms are changing all the time? What is the likelihood you're going to get help You know, how many times in your life can you have a baby? How many times in your life can you fall off a cliff? Well, if you can, good. Every time you can learn something. But you can do these forms hundreds of thousands of millions of trillions of times. And every time you do them, they're done for only one purpose. To find this source. There's no other reason to do them. And finding this source is the same as the only reason to do them is to be able to practice the other precepts, to assemble good.

[45:43]

You can't really assemble good if you don't avoid evil. You can't really benefit beings and purify them if you don't avoid evil. And you can't avoid evil if you get stuck. And you can't avoid getting stuck if you do things half-heartedly. And it's pretty hard not to do things wholeheartedly unless you practice at some form. We have deep habits of being stuck in half-hearted ways. And a half-hearted way is getting stuck on the side of change or getting stuck on the side of no change. Any position is half-hearted. Any position that's wholehearted immediately transcends itself and liberates you. Half-heartedness is being stuck. It's evil. Exactly.

[46:48]

He can get stuck not practicing one way. He can get stuck practicing one way for 25 years, probably, maybe. You can get stuck for eons. You already have been. However, the way you've been stuck, the way we've been stuck for eons, there's been some wholesomeness in it. There's been enough wholesomeness in the way we've been stuck, so we have the opportunity here that these forms offer the opportunity to catch yourself at being stuck. They offer an opportunity to, for example, make a beautiful tea bowl, And then have people around who are not just into protecting these tea bowls and making sure they don't get broken, who are not only interested in taking care of tea bowls, but interested in demonstrating the authentic tea bowl, which sometimes means we break it if we feel someone is holding it, stuck in it.

[47:53]

who's not taking care of the tea bowl so well that they demonstrate that the tea bowl for them has gone beyond being a tea bowl. And when we hit it, they don't go pale. They smile and say, bring on the glue. Now I understand what glue is for. I never knew before. In other words, What is disturbing to someone who's holding becomes an opportunity for realization for one who finds this source. Yes, dear? When you were talking, when I was thinking about the confessions that are made, and what that would mean, especially involving the pure collective precepts, because you're talking about the breaking of all the confessions. Right. But thinking about it in terms of either an opportunity to glue things together, or an opportunity to be in the presence of that transformation, which you've talked about in terms of confessions, then that would be very possible.

[48:58]

The breaking of the precepts sounds almost necessary. And because there's a definite form, we know or we have a sense that they've been broken. If there's no forms, you can be stuck and not know you're stuck. People can... Whatever, man. You know? But because there is a form, there's a sense of not for sure that it's broken, but this might be breaking it. And I think the Iron Bull was pretty sure that this thing got broken, that this precious thing got broken. And the Lord Sendai, I guess he noticed that it was broken too, but he also saw that that provided an opportunity for something to go on, that this T-Bowl had been promoted. First it got promoted to be broken, and then it got promoted to be glued back together again and become a real heirloom.

[50:03]

Heirloom, a loom, you know, a weaving together for the heirs, for the successors. And also now a story for wild people in the West. Where does that story appear? Where does it appear? I found it in this book here. You have to put your word for it. You definitely got my word for it. I have no photographs. So, so Dogen says, you know, stuff like this, manners are the essence of the teaching. Attaining the way is manners. The great Dharani, Dharani is like, you know, a spell, remembering what compassion is.

[51:16]

The great Dharani is a meeting. Because in meeting, because meeting or greeting is the great Dharani, you encounter the actualization of greeting. Greeting is burning incense and making full bows. You have a practice of private interview with the original teacher, and this is the Dharani of private interview. All greetings of good morning and good night are the utmost mantra. All Dharanis come forth from such greetings. Therefore, such greetings and bows have to be performed formally. Where is that? It's from, well, the first part's from Shobo Genzo Durrani by Dogen. The next one's a commentary by Kishizawa Iyan, Suzuki Roshi's teacher.

[52:19]

When Kishizawa Iyan studied with his teacher, I told you some stories about Kishizawa Iyan and his teacher in La Sashin. His teacher was named Sandalwood Mountain. Remember that guy? His face looked like a potato. The guy with the pockmarks all over his face. uh... and uh... i think it was yeah i think it was it was because of the on with and he shared books on one thing you share books on said to kiss is our city on uh... you're not my disciple and he said what you know my disciples and what what's the reason he said Because when I'm sitting formally, you bow to me, but like when I come out of the toilet or when I'm laying around in my living room, you don't bow to me. You're not my disciple.

[53:23]

Greetings, good morning, and greetings, good night, are the utmost mantra. Therefore, All the Dharanis, all the things that help us remember a Buddha's compassion, come forth from these greetings that we have with each other all throughout the day. Therefore, the bow should be performed formally. Now, we see each other around here, and, you know, we say, Hi. Hi. Recently somebody saw me and she went like this. I knew she was, had gone into a state of nervous breakdown. Because, I knew that because of formal bows, you know.

[54:38]

and sure enough she was very upset so the bow in the bow indicated to me that i should give her some attention and so she displayed the situation to me and i watched uh with utmost attention because i could see something was going on here because of the formal bows now it wasn't a formal bow it was a broken formal bottle it was a It was a precious antique vial that had been broken and turned into this. So I, oh, broken vial. But if somebody who doesn't practice formal bowels goes like this, I think, I go... And then that's, you know, and maybe I work my way up to a formal bow with this person by going like this. And I try to see exactly how they do that, you know.

[55:44]

And maybe they feel my attention. They say, boy, that guy's really studying me. Is he teasing me? What's going on here? He's taking my hand gestures very... Seriously? Is he teasing me? What's going on here? Little by little, if they want me to lay off, they can just go like this. I'll shut up. I won't tease anymore. So in one sense, I'm not telling you, you people should do these things. I'm just telling you that these formalities, these manners, are the essential teaching. They're the essential teaching. They're not the whole teaching, they're the essence. They're the source. They are the abode. It's in these forms, they're the abode of all the Buddha's laws.

[56:46]

So, I'll stop there because you may have some response. Yes. When we talk about, you said, I think, the words, so breaking a precept could be useful. And then you gave some examples of how moving out of the forms or actually specifically breaking a precept might be useful now. The question arises, useful to what? And I guess my initial thought of that answer is useful breaking precepts maybe are useful to keeping other precepts. In other words, if, you know, maybe... Yes, anyway, that's right. That's right, okay. For example, the precept of trying to benefit beings could be practiced by breaking the other one.

[57:52]

So, for example, let's say you say there's a precept like... know don't lie okay so somebody comes up to you and say you know which way did that you know somebody's chasing some little girl you know to molest her and and the guy says to you which way did that little girl go and you know you don't hold to your idea of lying and and say okay she went that way you you you consider, you know, what is the meaning of this precept and in a sense you violate your usual understanding of it and you say, she went that way. Because the part, the precept of lying, the true part of the precept of lying is the part of the precept of lying that goes with the part of benefiting all beings, which might break your usual way that you've been practicing and understanding telling the truth. So it might seem, according to your usual idea of what the tea bowl is or what the precept is, it might break the precept in order to facilitate the other one.

[59:01]

But you really do feel like it breaks, and according to that understanding, there's consequences. But you accept that consequence because there's a higher value of a truer part of the precept, which you can't even see really yet, but partly you can see it because it accords with benefiting beings. So that's one way you'd break the precept. Basically, the way you break the precept is you have to break your idea of the precept. You have to become free of your idea. You have to break the precept that you're stuck in. But it still does break the bowl. And you still have to address the fact that you broke it and you still have to glue it back. Not have to, but there is life in re-gluing it and coming back and making something new out of your old idea of the precept, which you then kind of glue it back together. But it's changed. It's got a dent in it now. And there's something, you know, something has evolved here. Something has grown. So that's, you know,

[60:02]

It's like that, and it's on and on like that. It's very subtle. I see two real possible pitfalls of this, and you addressed the first one, which is, I think you've said before, wholesomeness is contingent, and you need to maybe sometimes weigh choices and maybe have a sense that there's something that's deeper and more important than, let's say, a white lie type thing. I have no problem with that, but I worry a little bit about breaking precepts as what maybe looks like the only way to this deeper keeping of a precept in an expedient form. In other words, I think it's sometimes like there might be something... Why don't you give an example?

[61:07]

Well, just to use the example that you gave, is it not possible that there might have been something more skillful to do with that guy who was about to molest that young girl than to lie to him? Sure. There might have been something like, maybe the gut reaction was, got to break a precept here. Maybe if you look deeper then, you could say, well, wait a minute, maybe I can keep these precepts and still do this. Or maybe instead of breaking the ball with his stick, maybe he should have picked up the ball and thrown it at the other guy and let him not catch it to show his own non-attachment to that ball. That would have been fine too, maybe. And then maybe he doesn't break, you know... It doesn't break any volumeter. It doesn't break any precept there. It gives somebody else the opportunity. I mean, it just seems like in this matrix of precepts, there is a lot of opportunities for real deep looks at skillful means that the expediency of saying, well, you've got to break them over here to help them over there, it's not going to get you this far.

[62:12]

Yeah, that's right. Yes. I feel like I get the first two, what the precepts confused a little bit. And the first one we say, practicing now, which is conducive to practice. Conducive to liberation. Yeah. That just seems like it just kind of like goes like this with the do all good. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Except that, let's see. The do all good doesn't put such a heavy emphasis, I don't think, on forms. And this one's really emphasizing forms. Let's see if I can give an example here now.

[63:14]

Practicing concentration is not exactly, you know, following a rule. Giving is not really following a rule. It's more of a It's more of a what? And that also blends in with the next one, is that giving is one of the best ways to convert beings and help beings. These are not really separable. But under the heading of following these rituals and these forms, giving is not exactly emphasized here. Of course giving is involved, but the practice of giving is not mentioned here. What's mentioned here is forms. Now the spirit of giving should be in the forms. So the wholesomeness and positive energy of the second one, of course, is good to apply to the first one. But the first one is talking about forms, about disciplines. And it's more emphasizing the source from which

[64:20]

effective practice of giving and patience and enthusiasm and concentration and wisdom will come. And those are expressions of this source, of this abode of all the Buddha's laws. And they themselves are not so formal. So there's not like a traditional form of giving. Giving is very expansive. For example, there's not a traditional form by which you think of a flower on a mountainside and imagine it giving it to someone. That's not a traditional form. The thinking about the joy of giving someone a nickel and meditating on how nice that would be to give someone a nickel, just as an example of giving. And then think about how nice it would be to give them a dollar.

[65:26]

This is not a formal practice. Those practices are more like the radiance and joy that emanates from this source. We have all these do not this, do not that, do not this. And then I've seen it transcribed where there aren't the negatives in front. So those are still... Still forms. We could have, for example, for this, we could say, do not let your fingertips get too far below your nose or above the bottom of your nose. We could say it that way. But instead, we often say, for these forms, we say, have the fingertips be even with the bottom of your nose. Or we could say, don't let them be anyplace else. And sometimes we say it that way. Sometimes we say, don't read forward. or backwards or right or left. But then sometimes we say sit upright. It's still just a form. And again, the skillful way of practicing that form

[66:31]

the thorough way of practicing that form is every possible way you can do that will fully exert and express and fulfill and nurture and care for and take responsibility for and gather and so on and so forth, that form. And when that form is fully expressed, that's this precept. And then, and that... full expression is that you're not too tense and you're not too loose you're not saying whatever man you're not saying it's this you're not you're not it's the bowstring isn't too tight and it isn't too loose it's just the thorough balanced complete way of doing whatever you're doing and i'll a lot of us anyway have trouble doing anything all by ourselves, by our own lonesome, to execute a posture and not lean forward or backwards or right or left or be too soft, too hard.

[67:34]

It usually helps to have somebody else around who also practices this way and can look at us from the back, from the top, from the bottom, in all the directions that we can't see. Not to mention they have a whole bunch of people that are looking at us to give us feedback and not so much that they're right, but simply that they're giving us feedback. And then we can say, get out of my face. I know how to do this. And then we can find out that we're stuck. And they can find out we're stuck too. And they can be careful because this is a dangerous territory because you've got somebody here who knows what's right. So be careful. But eventually the person who knows that she's right realizes there's something funny about this. This is a bowl which is about to be broken. This is a bowl which is begging to be broken. And if you have a good friend, your friend will give it a good whack. And if you have another good friend, they'll glue it back together and it will be a good story for successive generations.

[68:36]

And people will be encouraged to learn, oh yeah, there's some kind of balancing thing here. Part of thoroughness is balancing. And part of thoroughness is trying ways you never thought of trying. trying on, you know, try this way of sitting, try that way of sitting. So I ask people sometimes, do you want me to give you feedback on your bow, on your sitting? And I sometimes ask people that after I have given them feedback in the past several times. And I think, now, can I do it again? So I ask, and then they say, Maybe they say, usually they say, oh, yes. Sometimes they say, they almost always say yes. So, you know, like somebody serves me in a zendo a couple of years ago. Somebody was serving me in a zendo. And he served like this, with one foot out like this.

[69:42]

You know, two feet straight, one foot out to the side like this. I think it was right foot or left foot was off to the side. But it always dipped that way. And so I said to him, I think I said, you know, or do you intentionally put the foot up that way? And he said. What goodness does it make to you? And I said, I was just wondering. If people's feet are straight, I think, usually, that's not by accident. They probably did it on purpose. I mean, if they come up every day and they're straight, I think, this is not accidental. So I don't ask them if they're aware of that, because I assume they are. But sometimes, I usually don't ask them. If their feet are like this, also I might not ask if they're always that way. If they're sometimes this way and sometimes that way, I don't ask because, you know.

[70:46]

But if one's always off to one side, I think, now, this is either more than usual Or more than usual. I mean, either he's really on a trip or he's really kind of got a habit here that's unchecked. Or, you know, I wonder, what's I ask, you know? And he said what he said, you know. The next time he served his people were like this. And they stayed like that. I didn't tell him to straighten him out. But somehow his attention came down there and he decided he didn't want his foot out to the side there. I guess. I don't know what happened. Anyway, something changed. And I really, I was not, I'm not trying to get everybody in line around here, really. I actually want to know, knock, knock, is this the abode of Buddhas here or what? Who, is there somebody, is this, what is this here? I'm not trying to correct. I don't think people are wrong when they have foot up to the side. But, you know.

[71:49]

Every time they put their feet down, I get to check out what's going on. I may not ask them, but I can look and I can see what the feet are doing. And because we've got these forms called feet, called posture, when people bow, I get to watch. Are the hands going like this? Are the thumbs out or in? Is this hand going like this? And this hand going like this? I get to see. Now I can say, Do you want some feedback? And then I can see what they say. And then they can hear what they say. And then I can talk about the hands and the thumbs. And I can interact. And they can be interacted with. And then we find out, is this the balanced mind here? Is this mind which is gathering and caring for and taking responsibility for every posture you make? Is that there? Is there interest in that? We check it out. And I don't do it all the time.

[72:51]

I'm not picky about this. It's just opportunities to find out where people are at, and for them to find out where they're at, and for them to find out how they respond to my questions, and for them to watch how I respond by the way they respond. All these things happen around these forums. And by this kind of interaction, we, over the years, learn what the source of all the Buddha's laws are. And then we can go on, you know, next two weeks to talk about the other two. But this is the, you know, it's not like I'm saying, you do these forms. I'm saying, as far as I can tell, you need some formality in order to find out your mind. To do it by chance, um, um, You just cut down the possibilities. You can do it by chance, too. There's no problem with that, and that does sometimes happen. But these ways provide lots of other opportunities for us to interact. And so there they are.

[73:56]

Yes? I have a big question, but... I wonder if... talking about the distance of fidelity, to what extent we have... we should incorporate that into our lives. And it seems that Dogen has much more frivolity than we have here. You know, you could instead of having a particular way of going, just bow, like the words that he said before, you like yourself. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, do you think that going to that extent of probability seems like we should do, but we just sort of haven't done here? Or it's not so necessary to go to that extent? This is a big question. Now it's 9 o'clock, so...

[74:58]

I don't know whether I should say something or whether I should wait till next week or what. I don't know. Want to stop and bring it up some next week? Is that better? If you can possibly remember the Dharani of this question till next week, we can start with this question. And so I don't feel like people are kind of like squirming. Okay? It's a very good, important question. And please look at it this week. considered this week. Thank you very much. Good night.

[75:39]

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