In the history of the Buddhist tradition, in the early days, there was a set of what might be called codes of conduct that the Buddha gave to disciples and primarily to monks and nuns, but this code of conduct also was extended to lay people. The name for this whole code was Vinaya. For monks, there were different presentations of this code of conduct, but for monks it

[01:00]

comprised major and minor guidelines for personal conduct, and there were about 250 rules or guidelines for monks, and for nuns it was about 340. And for lay people it was, generally speaking, five, unless they were on monastic retreat and then it was eight. The five for lay people were, I believe, not killing, not stealing, not misusing sexuality, no intoxicants, and right speech, and then when they went into a monastery for a retreat, they would add on to it, I think, not sleeping on a high platform and not wearing jewelry

[02:05]

or something, and another one. Anyway, those regulations or those guidelines for lay people were something like that. For men and women it was the same. And these precepts, very generally speaking, they look like what they're about is personal purity. They're about how to personally suppress one's own unskillful or even wicked conduct. And then another type of precept emerged in Buddhism, which are sometimes called Bodhisattva

[03:13]

precepts. B.S. with a circle around it is my symbol for Bodhisattva precepts, and these precepts were not so much about personal purity or about suppressing one's evil conduct, they were basically concerned with compassion for others. So if you listen to these precepts, they might sound like suppressing personal wicked behavior. For example, not stealing is one of them, but the emphasis was not on you becoming perfected

[04:20]

of stealing, but rather you not taking from others. It was not so much you becoming like someone who doesn't steal, but rather you being one who has that kind of relationship with people. So the Bodhisattva precepts didn't necessarily sound so different, like also another one was not to take life, that's also one of the Vinaya precepts, but the emphasis was not on you becoming pure, but that not taking life characterizes a relationship where you're concerned with compassion. Another example of this is that in one presentation of Bodhisattva precepts, which was rather influential, particularly on our Zen school, the Bodhisattva precepts were presented in

[05:28]

a scripture called the Brahmajala Sutra, which means Brahma Net. There's a Pali Brahmajala Sutra also, which means Brahma's Net, but it's a different sutra. This sutra is about the transmission of the Bodhisattva precepts, and it's more than just a list of precepts, but part of the sutra actually lists 58 precepts. 10 major, and 48 minor precepts. If you'd like to receive a copy of these Bodhisattva precepts as presented in this scripture, you can speak to Susan, and she can give you a copy of it. The major precepts of the Brahmajala Sutra include one, which is not to sell intoxicants.

[06:35]

So that shows you the difference. It's not about you not taking intoxicants. The major precept is not to sell, not to make a profit on selling other people something that's not necessarily good for them. There's also a minor precept in the 48 about you not taking the intoxicants. But again, the emphasis is not so much on you becoming a wonderful teetotaler, but rather that you wouldn't drink because drinking might not promote you having wholesome relationships, beneficial relationships with people. But putting the not selling here first, you can see that the point here is what's good for other people. And of course, you following practices in which you don't do evil things is not cut

[07:37]

off from doing what's good for other people, but the emphasis is different. So again, the emphasis here is individual purification, avoiding evil. So here the emphasis is on compassion. And then in China, another form of precepts developed, which are called, in Chinese they call them... Qing Gui. In Japanese they're called Shingi. And Qing Gui means pure rules or pure standards. And these precepts are an attempt on the part of Chinese Buddhists, and especially Zen Buddhists,

[08:45]

to reconcile the apparent contradiction between precepts about individual purity and precepts about compassion. The emphasis in these regulations is to guide, starting with monastics, because these pure rules were originally for monastics. But also remember that in the early days of the Mahayana, the precepts were for monastics also. The Mahayana Buddhism didn't just grow up outside the monastery. But these precepts were particularly for monastics. But they weren't really seen like the Bodhisattva precepts or the Vinaya precepts alone. In the history of Zen, there's a very revered name, which is Baizhang Waihai.

[09:59]

I don't know if there ever was such a person, but we do have a name like that, and we have a lot of data that that name was highly revered. People actually thought there was somebody by that name, and this name had a very good reputation. This person was supposed to be a great Zen master. And one of the things he did was, he made up a jingwei. He made up a set of pure rules for monks. And he said that the regulations and really the way of living together in a monastery should be such that it's neither restricted by the Vinaya or by the Bodhisattva precepts, nor at odds with the Vinaya or the Bodhisattva precepts.

[11:08]

So he's supposed to have said that. And whether he said it or not, I think that sounds good to me, actually. That we do not become limited by or restricted by the regulations for personal purity, nor do we at all, at least under almost all circumstances, try not to go against them. But also the Bodhisattva precepts, that we not be restricted by them. In other words, you could conceivably be restricted by regulations for personal purity. Can you imagine that, how that would be? For example, one of them is, for example, that a male monk could not touch a woman, or could not be alone with a woman, period.

[12:13]

Not to mention having sexual intercourse with a woman, but he couldn't even be alone with a woman. So that regulation might be restrictive under some circumstances. Bodhisattva precepts, for example, even not killing, a precept which we certainly shouldn't violate, still you might be working with the precept of not taking life in such a way that you were working with it in a way that restricted you. So Buddha, of course, practices not taking life. But the Buddha is not restricted by the precept of not taking life. The Buddha just doesn't take life. But it's not like some kind of like, oh jeez, I can't kill anybody today. It's not a restriction on Buddha. It's just natural.

[13:15]

But even though it's not a restriction, Buddha doesn't kill people, or anything. So we don't violate those personal purity precepts, and we're not restricted by them, according to Bajong's instructions. And the same with the Bodhisattva precepts. Even some nice precept of compassion, of course you shouldn't violate it if you're a Bodhisattva. But it's possible that you would be restricted by it, that your function would be restricted. So Bajong's saying, not that either. However, if you look at either one of these types of precepts, and the commentaries which explain how to practice them, you might get hung up. So these precepts, these monastic pure rules were set up to encourage monks to find a way to practice transcendence of the apparent contradiction between personal purity and

[14:19]

compassion, and also to transcend any kind of inattention to these wonderful precepts, or getting stuck on them. Even in the early days of the practicing of Vinaya, there was a type of false view which was called shila-parata-para-marsha, which means kind of like, basically obsessively holding to the conventional understanding of the precepts. So it was always from the early days, the Buddha presented the precepts, but then the Buddha also said, but it's a false view to hold to these too much. So what Bajong's basically saying is, what he attributed to what some people say he said The importance is that basically, you should do what's appropriate in a given situation.

[15:23]

Of course, there was a Japanese Buddhist teacher named Ryohei, and he had a monastery, and he had one precept over the doorway, which was basically, do the appropriate thing. And I often quote the Zen teacher, Umo, or Yun-Man, who when asked what was the Buddha doing during his whole career as a Buddha, and Yun-Man said, inappropriate response. So the Buddha, and also even in the early scriptures, the Buddha said that this Vinaya was not for the Buddha. The Buddha didn't violate this Vinaya, but the Buddha didn't follow it either. So the Buddha is not restricted by the regulations, and doesn't violate them. The Buddha is not restricted by the precepts of compassion, and isn't violated by them. The Buddha does the appropriate thing.

[16:25]

And these regulations were attempting to give monks a way to live appropriately. The emphasis here, that makes our behavior appropriate, is that the emphasis here is not on purifying self only, not on focusing on helping others, but on practicing together. Because practicing together is the way that's not restricted by the precepts, or violating them. Of course, as you learn how to practice together, in other words, as you learn the practice of practicing together, in other words, as you learn to be a Buddha, you probably do

[17:28]

sometimes become restricted by the regulations, or violate them. But practicing together washes that out. So if you're stuck on the precepts, since you're not really supposed to be stuck on the precepts, because you're not really supposed to be doing the precepts by yourself, if you do the precepts by yourself, if you follow the regulations by yourself, you're stuck, or you're violating. And your friends will bump into you, because you're either going against them, or you're holding still, and they're flowing, and they run into you. Like, you know, you're going like this, you're carrying the precepts, and they're all just flowing along, so they run into you. Like that famous end story of the two monks coming to the stream, and there's a woman

[18:30]

standing there, and she's all dressed up, so she doesn't want to get wet, so one of the monks picks her up and carries her across, and then he puts her down, and they walk on. And then sometime later, the other monk who didn't carry her said, you know, you're not supposed to be picking up women. That's against our tradition. You violated our tradition. And he said, oh, you're still carrying her? I put her down back several times. See, they're practicing together, so this monk could see that even though he didn't go against the precept, he kind of got stuck on it. And because he was practicing together, he could see that. But really, it's also the way of their work, the fact that they were walking together, made the opportunity for them to practice the precepts together.

[19:36]

It wasn't like really one or the other of them was doing the practice. The one who carried and the one who didn't carry, they're equally practicing. Because if the practice isn't what one of them did and what the other one didn't, or vice versa, it's the practicing together. That's really the way the Bodhi practices. And these previous two kinds of practices, in some ways, are a little easier to fall into, in some ways, a dualistic understanding of them. So we have them as a resource. And we have all these three types of resource. And this is part of this great opportunity we have to now work on these during this practice period, but also be creative with these, so that we can find guidelines or pure rules that will help us practice together. And we have at our disposal, as we practice together, these ancient forms, both the ancient

[20:39]

Vinaya, the ancient Bodhisattva precepts, and I'll mention a little bit more about different versions of the Bodhisattva precepts, and we have the ancient Zen monastic regulations. We have all these at our disposal. And then we may apply the basic principles involved here to come up with new regulations that will help us even more practice together. Which I think is the wonderful spirit that finally was arrived at here, the great contribution of this level of precepts. It completes the picture. So again, all three types are good, all three are useful. And today I feel that we need all three, that the practice wouldn't be complete if we had any one of them alone. And one more thing I want to say before I forget, and that is that the Soto Zen, pretty much starting from the time of Dogen in the 13th century, doesn't use the 58 Bodhisattva

[21:46]

precepts of the Brahmajala Sutra. The Japanese founder of Soto Zen, Ehei Dogen Daisho, was trained as a monk in the Tendai tradition of Japan, which was transmitted from China, a very important school in Chinese Buddhism called Tendai. And they practiced with the 58 Bodhisattva precepts. And Dogen, when he was 13, I believe, was ordained as a Tendai monk on Mount Hiei, which is the center of Tendai Buddhism in Japan. And I guess he received the 58 Bodhisattva precepts at that time. But when he started ordaining monks in his own temple, I shouldn't say when he started, but in the end, when he died, he left behind manuals for transmitting not the 58, but just

[22:48]

the first ten of the 58. And, in addition to that, the refuges and the three pure precepts. So he set up a tradition of transmitting 16 Bodhisattva precepts, which is a unique characteristic of this particular school of Soto Zen. So we have the 58 version, and we have the 16 version. And if you'd like a copy of the 16 Bodhisattva precepts of our school, you can just put a pile of them on the altar in my room. You can just come and take one. So this is my basic presentation, and what I look for from now on is that we practice together, and that we practice together with the resources of the traditions of the Buddhists,

[23:49]

not just the Mahayana, but also the individual vehicle tradition. All the background traditions we use, we respect, and that we become creative with them, because this is the spirit of the Zen school, is to now come up with some new guidelines for how we can help each other practice together. Any comments? Yes? About the together, like in the Vinaya tradition, there is the together formed in hierarchy. Hierarchy, yes. And so somebody watches somebody else, and they kind of remind each other, and then they have the monthly repentance ceremony. So there's a very formal way of being together. And now in Bodhisattva precepts, that's like everything, like reminding you, you're reminding

[24:54]

everything, but it's very informal, I would say. Maybe in our tradition we have the teacher relationship, that's maybe a formal expression, but otherwise it's very open, so together, very open. And now in Chinggye, I was wondering, how is this together manifest, how is this together has a form, does it have a form? Well, one of the oldest ceremonies in the Vinaya tradition is called Upasattva. And I think Upasattva means confession. And once a month, or twice a month, on the new moon and the full moon, monks in different geographical areas would get together and recite the Vinaya, at least the regulation part of the Vinaya, together as a formal ceremony, which you mentioned, right?

[26:02]

They do that. And in the Chinggye, there is description of the ceremony, of how to do that Upasattva ceremony. So the Chinggye presents actually a formal ceremony to celebrate usually the Bodhisattva precepts, that's what they usually celebrate. So there is a formal way in the monastic regulations of celebrating the ancient ceremony, except that they change the precepts that they celebrate. They don't celebrate the Vinaya precepts, they celebrate the Bodhisattva precepts. And the regulations about how they get together and do that are the pure rules. The rules for personal purity are not describing how you do a group ceremony, although there

[27:11]

were probably descriptions someplace about how to do that. That's not a personal purity practice. The Chinggye would explain how we could practice together, and the commentaries in the Chinggye would elucidate how we can help each other practice together, practice the precepts together, practice the celebration of the precepts together, in a way, in the middle way, in a way where we don't violate the precepts and don't get stuck in them. So we don't violate the ceremonial procedures and don't be restricted by them. And so we have that opportunity here at Zen Center all the time. When we do formal practice, we have the opportunity to relate. So for example, if I'm working with a priest and the priest is wearing their robes, then I can go over to the priest and I can make an adjustment of their robe.

[28:12]

And as I make that adjustment, if the interaction of making the adjustment is neither restricting a relationship nor violating it, then we have a moment of Buddha, a moment of where we're working with a form, but there's no restriction or inattention, there's a balance there, and it's both people doing it together, and both people feel, of course, very encouraged by this, because this is basically what Buddha is, is appropriate adjustment of the robe. Sometimes, the appropriate adjustment of the robe is not to adjust the robe. Sometimes, when the monk comes and the robe is on inside-out or backwards or not even on, sometimes the appropriate thing to do is not say anything. But that still is practicing together. When the teacher sees a student who forgot her robe and doesn't say anything, sometimes

[29:19]

that's the perfect and most appropriate way for them to be. But actually, I did say to one of the priests today, I said, What is the reason you're not wearing your robe? And she told me the reason why she wasn't wearing her robe, and I said, Would you please wear your robe? So, I don't know if that was right or wrong. I mean, I shouldn't say right or wrong. I don't know if that was like practicing together. But anyway, she smiled and put her robe on. And like an earthen regulation here in sense, and that comes more to my mind, like it's only like a teacher and a student, this can happen only between the teacher or some senior teacher can come forward and say such things, but not between like priests themselves or like people know each other.

[30:20]

What I'm talking about is sort of the point of all this. I'm not talking about what we've already attained. So, you haven't seen too much of the peers practicing together in this way. But ideally, that's where we would get to that point where you could meet a peer and interact around a regulation in such a way that you'd find this perfect balance there in the relationship. And even sometimes between so-called teacher and so-called student, sometimes the teacher sees a student and maybe feels somewhat restricted by the regulation. In other words, they see the student maybe violating the regulation, but then they feel tense. So then they feel like they can't say anything. They feel like they can't make the suggestion to the student because they're restricted

[31:23]

by the rule which they see as being violated. Or sometimes they say, oh, there's a student not according with the regulation. I think I'll go and make a suggestion. And they go and do it, and the student feels very bad about this. Because although the teacher feels unrestricted, the student suddenly feels very restricted, like oppressed. So sometimes, again, I might adjust someone's role and they might feel, for some reason or other, like for example, maybe their mother used to really give them a hard time about the way they wore their clothes, and suddenly their mother comes back. So they feel very restricted and unhappy, and they didn't invite you to somehow re-enact this childhood trauma. So then it seems not to work very well, even with the teacher, so-called teacher. The teacher, in that case, maybe doesn't seem so skillful. But sometimes maybe that is skillful, because sometimes maybe that brings something up,

[32:29]

and then a few minutes later the student sees, oh, that was my mother all of a sudden there. Wow. So, anyway, we're trying to find this, and it's not so easy to find it, but this is the game I'm talking about. This is called practicing together, and it's very challenging. But that's what Zen's about, I think. It isn't just me being pure or me being compassionate. It's bringing the compassion into a relationship and seeing how it works. And the way it works sometimes is that people do not like your style of compassion. Or somebody else is giving you their style of compassion, and your compassion to their compassion is like, I don't want your compassion. And that maybe really is appropriate, but maybe it's not.

[33:29]

So is it appropriate or is it not? Sometimes we should stay away from people and leave them alone. Sometimes we shouldn't. Sometimes we don't. And then it's like, if you leave people alone, generally speaking, they don't have too much of a problem with you. Sometimes they feel bad that you don't, then when you leave them alone. But generally speaking, you stay away from people. You just find a nice little closet someplace and be fed under the door, and you won't be like, people will not call you a big troublemaker. But if you actually get out and start relating to people, generally speaking, that's harder. But not necessarily always appropriate. However, if we're practicing together, those people who are out there, you know, interfering with our lives, we're practicing with them. We're practicing with the pushy, picky, interfering type of people. Do you know those words? And there are some people like that at Zen Center, right?

[34:34]

We could have some of them come up. Not anymore. We got rid of them? So of course, she's just kidding. If she wasn't, we would need to invite those people back. Or pay them to come, like Guruji. Yes, pay them to come. But anyway, she's just kidding. We do have people like that here. And as a matter of fact, several are in the room. But I haven't run away from you yet, interfering with my life. Because of the teaching that we practice together, we don't go someplace where people leave us alone to practice. However, it's nice to find a way to be close, and at the same time, leave each other alone.

[35:36]

You know? To get really close, and be very expressive, and really leave everybody alone, while you're like driving them up the wall. Because we're practicing together, there isn't really anybody out there. That's really what it's about. There's not two people practicing. There's only one person practicing. And that's what I think. That person, that one person, can be very creative in the practice. Nothing to worry about. Yes? What you're just saying, that, me personally, it's just back on my own mind, like there seems to be nothing else, but, like again, the whole precepts thing, kind of, gets again like something that needs to be worked out in my own mind, and so... No! It looks like...

[36:40]

No! It doesn't get worked up only in your own mind. But it looks like a play, like a big play of evaluations, and like meeting a lot of people with different evaluations. It is a big play of evaluations, because the people who are practicing together are evaluators. You're an evaluator, your neighbor's an evaluator, everybody's an evaluator. So, practicing together is a play of evaluators. We're constantly evaluating each other. You cannot avoid it. Like right now, you're evaluating me. You're kind of going, I don't know if I like him or not. No, that was pretty good. I'm not sure about... You're constantly evaluating me to see if I'm insulting you, agreeing with you, disagreeing with you, being brilliant, stupid, rude. You have a whole different set of dimensions, different categories under which you're judging me all the time, plus you're judging all the other people who are not talking right now.

[37:40]

You think it's fine that they're shutting up or they should be talking more. Why don't you people walk out? You have this incredible mind. You can do zillions of calculations in a few seconds, and you're doing them. And you're doing them with other people who are also doing them, and right now they're leaving you alone to some extent. But that's because their evaluations of you are such and such. If their evaluations were different, they'd come over to you and start doing things to you. We are evaluating. It's a play of evaluation, and it's a play of judgment. It's a play of feelings. It's a play of thoughts. It's a play of sensations. It's a play of intuitions. It's a play of understandings. It's a play of bodies and minds. It's incredibly complex and dynamic, and that's where Buddha lives. Buddha lives in the play of all the people together doing all this stuff and enjoying how incredibly harmonious the situation is, actually, considering how complex it is.

[38:41]

I saw this movie a few months ago called Monsoon Wedding, and they had a picture of a street in India. It didn't look like an American street. There were lots of new cars driving down the street, but there were also rickshaws and lots of people on bicycles and lots of people walking and some people running and some people screaming and some people selling. It was very complex. But during the filming of that thing, which was just a few minutes, it was all kind of working out. It was very intense, and generally speaking, the people looked happy. And there was plenty of suffering, too. There were poor people. There were cripples. A lot of the time, it does work out. It is possible. There are moments of harmony here and there, and if you add them all up, there's a tremendous, huge number of harmonious moments occurring in this world. But of course, a few moments of war are extremely difficult for us and hurt so much and last

[39:52]

so long. But there's also times when we get along. So like this morning, did you notice how well we got along this morning? It was difficult, though, wasn't it, a little bit? Didn't you have a little bit of difficulty? And don't you love Sam? Wasn't that wonderful and difficult and harmonious this morning? So much was happening in those few hours together. And lots of evaluation was going on, did you notice? You were evaluating yourself. You were evaluating other people. We were all evaluating a lot of the other people. We weren't all evaluating everybody. I was the only one who was evaluating everybody. We couldn't see everybody. So you probably weren't evaluating people you couldn't see, except you might have thought, even some of you might have said, I don't know who else is over on the other side of the room, but I think they're doing okay. People were probably evaluating the coffers. People were evaluating people's kinhi.

[40:57]

People evaluate how many people left. Lots of evaluations going on. The people who are leaving are evaluating the people who are staying, and they're evaluating themselves. And they're evaluating the other people who are leaving with them, who aren't quite as good as them, don't have as good excuses or what have you. People are evaluating each other's bathroom practice. Did you notice? It was happening right here, right here in the Zen monastery. And we got through it, very nicely. And maybe, I don't know, maybe some people were like, not violating the Vinaya precepts, not restricted by them, not violating the Bodhisattva precepts, not restricted by them. That's really what it means to practice together. And it's not just we're all practicing together. That's true, we're practicing together, but how about these precepts? Oh, wow. I didn't, oh, wow.

[41:58]

And when you, it's not, it's not that you weren't practicing together, but you didn't appreciate how much you were practicing together until you look at these. They amplify the workings of the process. There are certain regulations which make you consider things which you wouldn't even think of. Do you know what I mean? Say that again, please. There are certain regulations which, until you hear them, you don't even consider certain things. Like some people, until they hear about not lying, they never think of it. You have to be taught that. That that's a dimension of a harmonious relationship, and so on. So they aren't meant to cause us problems, they're meant to help us understand, actually, what harmony is. What's the relationship between the evaluative mind and the precepts? What's the relationship? Yeah. Oh, the precepts occur in the evaluative, in a person with evaluative mind.

[43:02]

He either hears about the precepts or doesn't. If they hear about them, then their evaluative mind interacts with the precepts, and starts evaluating how they're doing with respect to the precepts, and perhaps how other people are doing with respect to the precepts, although that may not be asked for. But the evaluative mind is non-stop. Every moment there's an evaluation going on. It's just an omnipresent mental function. Is this pleasant? Is this unpleasant? Or I can't tell which. Do you like this? Do you like this or not like it? All these feelings and evaluations are normal, part of the situation of living beings practicing together. Amoeba do it too. They're evaluated too. Like, is this food or poison? I can't tell which. They go, you mean? Oh, nope. All beings are evaluating situations all the time.

[44:06]

They evaluate and then they respond. Evaluate and respond. So we're looking for the appropriate response. The appropriate response to what? To what? Suffering. To what arises. Yeah, it's appropriate response to what arises, but... I mean, it's response to what arises, but what makes it appropriate? Appropriate means apropos of what? Literally. Yeah. Or whatever. Whatever you want to call it. It's like, whatever happens, then whatever conditions arise, that's what you're related to. But then what is the appropriate response? We always respond to what happens. But sometimes we don't see that our response is apropos of X, Y or Z. So in the Buddhist context, when you say to the Buddha what's apropos, then it means the Buddha had his responses to what happened were apropos of Buddhahood.

[45:11]

Were apropos of who Buddha was and apropos to Buddha's agenda. So we always do what's appropriate. That means we always take into consideration the situation, but also appropriate to what? You get to decide appropriate to what. Apropos to what is important to you. Yes. I was thinking about shame and fear of blame. Shame and fear of blame? As the qualities of mind. I consider them very helpful. Yes. But how are they not being restricted by holding a precept? In other words, what generates the shame? Restricted? Yes. But could decorum, which you have more in common, could that be not restrictive? It can be restrictive when you're meeting someone

[46:16]

and your sense of decorum makes you feel like you can't relate to them. You feel obstructed and hindered because of your sense of decorum. Like you'd like to lick their cheek, but you feel like that wouldn't be decorous. You fear that you would be blamed for inappropriate saliva plantations. So, because of your sense of decorum, you might feel restricted. But you might also feel like that actually that sense that someone would blame you might guide you to, instead of licking that person, you might lick your chops instead. And feel like, hmm... Yeah, that was it. So your sense of decorum might guide you to do something you feel like was just perfect, just right on the mark.

[47:18]

And apropos means to the point, on the mark. So a sense of decorum sometimes helps you do... Like a figure skater, you know? Sometimes what they're doing out there is they're working with decorum, moving in a way that seems really appropriate. And that sense of decorum guides them in their physical movements. So sometimes you feel like decorum supports you and guides you in this beautiful movement, and other times you feel like it's blocking you. And so we look for, like, what's the way where decorum, or protocol in human relationships, blocks us? And where is that, in that same situation, in that same image of decorousness, how can it be reimagined in such a way that you can work with it and it's not restrictive? And of course you can see how sometimes your sense of decorousness or decorum, if you go against it, you can see, well, that could be violating.

[48:22]

So seeing how it could be violating and seeing how restrictive, it can be both. So a sense of... But the sense of it, the sense that there is a decorum, and that it could be violated or it could block you, that sense of those two sides, that sense of it, is what it means to work with decorum. You have a sense of decorum. If you have no sense of decorum, then you have trouble finding this beautiful response with people. Because in every relationship, in every moment of meeting any being that you're practicing together, there is what is decorous. It's there, available, but it's sometimes... Unless you're balanced and awake, you sometimes have trouble realizing it together with the other person because you're worried about them blaming you. So they have to be taken into account here, and that's part of what we're talking about. And self-respect means sometimes you feel like you'd like to do something,

[49:27]

but because you feel like... You don't do it because you feel like it's kind of beneath you, so to speak. You have more respect for yourself than to put yourself in that situation. And that can kind of hinder you maybe from wearing Bermuda shorts. So you feel kind of restricted, like, I'd like to wear Bermuda shorts, but then maybe there's another way to wear them that... Maybe not with tiger pattern or something. Maybe khaki would be okay. You find a way that's appropriate. If you're a Buddhist priest or something, you might think, I shouldn't wear Bermuda shorts. And maybe that's right. But maybe there's a way to wear them that isn't restrictive. So, both inwardly and outwardly, these senses are actually helpful dimensions

[50:28]

to find the way to practice with all these precepts and find the appropriate response. Yes? So this is the way in which you speak of the first pure precept as being manners and observing monastic conduct. Yes. And also the respect and decorum, aren't they always present in a wholesome situation? Are they always present in a wholesome situation? I don't think so. I'm not sure. I don't remember. But their opposites define unwholesome situations. So, if you have the opposites of them, then you certainly have an unwholesome situation.

[51:29]

But I don't know if all wholesome situations have both of those. In other words, it might be possible to... to... in a given moment of consciousness where the issue of self-respect, the dharma of self-respect and the dharma of decorousness or concern for being blamed by others, that just isn't arising in your mind. But you could have other factors such that you'd have a wholesome state. I don't think those two are always in every wholesome state. However, if you have the opposite of them, not just that they're not there, but the opposite, like in a certain moment of thought, the thought, the consideration of self-respect might not be in your mind. Can you imagine that? You know what I mean? Like if you're doing a backflip,

[52:32]

during certain phases of the backflip you might not be into self-respect at all or decorum. Maybe at the beginning of the backflip you're into decorum. And maybe at the end you might be trying to make a good landing, but in a certain phase you might be just kind of... There's no... Self-respect is not really an issue. Gravity is the issue. But, yeah... But to have the opposite of them, to not care, to not respect yourself, and to think, I'm such a bum, you know, I could be cruel to this person and that would not be beneath me. You know, I'm a worthless creep. And I don't care what people think of me. I don't care if they don't like me. I don't care if I cause trouble. I don't care... You know, I just don't give one flying plot. That's the opposite. And when that's present, you have unwholesomeness. But just to have the absence of the other one

[53:35]

or the presence of the other one... The absence isn't enough to make it unwholesome. It's the presence of the opposite that makes it unwholesome. So those two are enough to guarantee unwholesomeness. Because those two are basically a disregard for cause and effect, which is the most powerful form of wrong view. It's like denying karmic causation. But admitting karmic causation, to be vividly aware of it, then that goes with self-respect. Like, you know what's good for you, really. When you have self-respect, you know. This would be good, and I'm a person that that would be good for, and I'm a person who knows that it would be good for me. And so I may still do this stupid thing, but it's stupid. So people who know things are stupid still do stupid things. But people who don't even know it's stupid

[54:36]

and don't even think it's beneath them, when they do it, it's... Well, if they have an opinion, then definitely everything they do is unwholesome. I think that's the way it works, but you're all welcome to check out your own psyches and see if it's different that way and let me know. And I'll change the book a little bit, depending on what you say. Yes? Isn't it sometimes unwholesome? Isn't it sometimes... Unwholesome. Yes. I'm making a parenthesis. I realize it's not what you meant, but isn't it sometimes wholesome to say, I don't care what they think? Well... If what you mean... For example, if what you mean is, you're like, I'm about to do something that will help Stuart,

[55:38]

let's say. I have a pretty good sense that it would help Stuart and a whole bunch of people are like, I've discussed it with people and I think this would be good and I'm going to do this, but I sense that somebody might not like it and I might say, you know, I don't really care that that person doesn't like it. I mean, for me. I'm sorry for them that they don't like me doing this good thing. I'm sorry for them, but I don't care that they don't like me for doing it. That kind of not caring, that can go with wholesomeness. In other words, or if you know, I don't know what, if a mother knows that it's going to be very painful to deliver her baby, she might say, you know, I don't really care if it hurts. Because I so much want to have this baby that I don't care. Or the mother might be delivering a baby and someone might say, I don't know what, let's say, maybe the mother is not married and her father doesn't want her, thinks it's terrible that she's having a baby

[56:39]

without being married. And she might say, you know, especially maybe when the baby is delivered, she might say, you know, I really don't care if my father doesn't like that I'm having this baby because I really don't care if anybody doesn't like that I'm having this baby. But I do care for them and if they don't know how wonderful it is that this baby is here. Actually, I know a grandfather, and personally, and I've heard of some fathers who, when their daughters have, or when their granddaughters have babies and the granddaughter is not married, they don't, they feel hindered in appreciating the baby. Even though they just got a grandchild, a gorgeous, unbelievably wonderful thing, they can't appreciate it because the daughter didn't follow their idea of certain things. So I feel sorry for them.

[57:39]

And not to care about them, not to feel sorry for them, that wouldn't be wholesome. But not to care that they don't, like me, you know, for being the father of blah blah. I don't mind it for myself. That would be okay. That's what you meant, right? Yeah. If something good happens and you're happy, and someone's not happy that you're happy that something good happened, it's okay to not care too much that they don't like you or are not happy for you. But you should feel sorry for them for not being sort of with it. Yes. I was wondering, it's an old Buddhist desire that he built to cut through samsara. So I was wondering in this purity,

[58:45]

Vinaya thing, what is that? It's pretty clear, like, just pretty clear for what it's going. And I was wondering now if this is just it. Well, that's part of the dynamic here, is that the the Vinaya teachings could promote a person, you might say, renouncing samsara. But still, even though they renounce samsara, and maybe live together with some other people who renounce samsara, that group of people renouncing samsara could be a resource for other people to hear Buddha's teachings. And in that sense, it could become quite a vehicle for compassion. Because although they renounce samsara, they renounce samsara with a body. So this body can be seen

[59:45]

by other people. So the monastic life that they live can be an encouragement to people. Even though those people may not yet be ready to go to monastery themselves, they may still be involved in samsara. But still, these samsara dropouts could be an inspiration to people who are still in samsara. In that sense, they're very active in samsara. They're actively helping people in samsara, even though they've renounced it. Now, on the other hand, if their renunciation is not... what to say? If their renunciation is not really balanced like a Buddhist renunciation, then their renunciation might not encourage people to practice Buddhism. They might see a bunch of monks who are practicing renunciation, but their renunciation is a little off. It's a little... got a little holding in it. And then, their renunciation,

[60:46]

although it's pretty good in a way, for them, in some ways, it actually might turn people away from Buddhism. They might say, well, those are renunciates, huh? Well, I'm never going to be interested in that. If that's what renunciation is, count me out, rather than... I don't want to do that right now, but it's really cool if somebody is. And that's what a lot of people say about Zen Center, you know. I don't want to live in Zen Center, but I'm glad some people do. And I don't want to... I don't want to, you know, waste my time sitting all morning, but I'm glad somebody is doing that. I want to, like, do this and that, but I'm glad somebody is just sitting there witnessing silence. So, it could be that monastics could discourage people, which is not the point of Buddha. Or they could encourage people, and they could encourage people by giving up

[61:47]

what other people are interested in, and still encourage those people who are not interested in giving up still, but they're still interested in learning more about Buddhism before they're ready to practice renunciation, but they're starting to warm them up for it. Now, the Zen schools are supposed to be really good at this. At attracting people to practice by being somewhat of a renunciate, but in a way that really attracts people to renunciation. And so, part of being a renunciate is to, for example, do what's appropriate for certain people. And for certain people what's appropriate is to make delicious meals, because they'll come for the good food, and then as they eat more and more of the good food they'll get more and more interested in renunciation. Everybody has to practice renunciation, but renunciation

[62:47]

doesn't have to be practiced alone. Basically, if you practice renunciation alone, it's not Buddha's renunciation. Buddha's practice, all the dimensions of Buddha's practice are practicing together. So if we practice renunciation at a Zen center, we should practice it in a way that people find it lovely. However, if they don't find it lovely, rather than not care about it, we more like use their input as guidance to, what do you call it, to refine our product in such a way that does encourage them, without using that as an excuse to not practice renunciation. And that's why the practicing together, part of the renunciation is to give up your style of renunciation, but not give it up

[63:49]

so much that you actually just simply are not renouncing anything. Yes? Um, when you suggest there be sort of a new expression of renunciation out of the 1640s of the precepts that we have, sort of like in modern Christianity, can you give me an example? Well, I wasn't so much thinking of necessarily a new expression coming out of the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, but we have the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, that's part of our practice, but we also have the Vinaya to be aware of, so part of our, but the way we work with the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, that is part of the creative process. So, for example, the way we do the ceremony, of course, it's in English, that's one of the ways we changed it, hoping that there would be more, I guess hoping that there would be more encouraging people

[64:49]

to do it in Japanese. Like they changed the mass in Catholicism from Latin to English, and some people didn't agree with that, but we haven't had got much negative feedback from switching this ordination ceremony from Japanese to English. That's one change. Another change is not so much in terms of the Bodhisattva precepts, but more in terms of the procedures and the regulations, is that the way women are interacting with the precepts is more equal and co-head than it was in Asia. That's a change over on this side. There's no Bodhisattva precepts which said men and women shouldn't practice together. There's very few monasteries in China and Japan and Korea where men and women are practicing together. So that's one of the changes, and we haven't even made a rule

[65:50]

which says men and women can practice together. We haven't made that regulation, but in fact it's there. Maybe we shouldn't actually say it. That would be a new regulation. Men and women can practice together in a monastery. Here's another example. The way that the 16 Bodhisattva precepts were translated at Zen Center for a while was with three pure precepts being translated as something like I vow to refrain from all evil action. I vow to do all good and I vow to save all beings. But that's not actually what... The first one is not actually what it says in Chinese and Japanese.

[66:51]

What it actually says is I vow to embrace and sustain regulations and ceremonies. In other words, the ceremony for receiving the Bodhisattva precepts as it's presented in the Shingi is that the first pure precept is to practice the Shingi. But for various reasons we didn't say it that way. And I think the reason for not saying it that way I guess the reason for not saying it that way is because people are feeling a little uneasy about regulations and ceremonies. But in fact I personally have put it back in in my presentation of those precepts because that's actually what it says and I think it's very good for us now as we take Bodhisattva precepts to vow to practice regulations and ceremonies. Which takes us to Zen and takes us to recognizing that part of the way

[67:52]

you help people is with ceremonies and regulations. It isn't just by avoiding evil. Of course that's good and we want to do that but our way of avoiding evil is more like getting people somebody to work with and we avoid evil by learning how to practice together rather than personally try to avoid evil. So the rendition of the three pure precepts which we're using at Zen Center were actually more of the personal purity type of presentation and it's actually using the way that the Dharmapada presents the precepts avoid evil practice good and clarify your mind. In our Mio Sutra it does actually say in the Japanese original avoid evil practice good and save beings. That's what it says in the Japanese original but in the precept transmission ceremony it says embrace and sustain the regulations and ceremonies. So switching back

[68:52]

actually in that case was a case where I feel myself and I don't know how the rest of the community feels this is something to start talking about that the watering it down well not watering it down actually but to say it that way to avoid this regulations and ceremonies I feel was a step backwards and now I like to step forward and go back to what was erased and now deal with that. I think also a part of what being creative with the Shingi is to teach people about it and to invite people to think of ways that our regulations and ceremonies could not violate the early individual purification practices and not be restricted by them not violate or be restricted

[69:52]

by the bodhisattva precepts and then what regulations and ceremonies because these these have regulations and ceremonies but they're for a different environment this is saying in our present situation what regulations and ceremonies inspire and encourage the practice they won't be the same so looking at these kinds of things is in accord with the Vinaya in a way it doesn't violate the Vinaya and also looking at these things doesn't isn't being restricted by the Vinaya because we're encouraged by the Vinaya to look at them not be restricted by the Vinaya to say we can't make up new rules they have to be like the way they're practiced in India so we keep looking over at India and thinking how that was good then what were the advantages then and what were the disadvantages then for example what are the disadvantages of treating women differently why do they treat them differently we look at and we study that at the same time we don't ignore

[70:54]

those but we say let's find out how do they apply to today that's what these are and not and can we think of anything new so for example we have oriyoki we also change that somewhere the Japanese way of doing which has lots of virtues the way they do it in most sotos and monasteries is when they're serving seconds people stop eating so you have a limited amount of time and then if you stop eating during seconds you have less time unless everybody would take longer to finish their seconds but some people do not take seconds so then if everybody stops some people have less time to eat so some people are not going to get enough to eat and for some

[71:54]

people that will drive them out of the monastery so at zen center we made a compromise of letting people continue to eat what they already received at first while seconds are being served we changed that because we thought it was more appropriate although there's still some discussion about that actually because it's so lovely and ungreed to actually stop but the disadvantage of that is that if some people stop eating can't eat during seconds then if they can't finish what they got on first during seconds they won't be able to get seconds or they won't be able to finish their seconds because other people almost everybody because we don't wait usually until everybody's completely done before we bring the water and if you're the last person to be eating even if you're the out you got a big bowl of brown rice and everybody else in the room is finished and you're

[72:54]

like got this bowl of brown rice which you're going to chew each bite 50 times you feel bad keeping them waiting because some of them are sitting in full loads and a lot of pain and they would like to take their break and the servers are all lined up like so you feel like well either you got to gobble the food which isn't good for your health or the next time you're not going to get as much so we make that change because it gives people a little more time to eat and other changes we can make more dramatic than that although even that little change has been discussed and argued about quite a while yes how much of this shingi is like standard form is there a place like is it a ages

[73:55]

shingi that we would read and draw from or are we even using standard shingi or just we have little bits and pieces from Suzuki Roshi's temple or how is our shingi there are more than one there supposedly was a Hyakujo shingi by John Waihai supposedly made a shingi but we don't have it anymore there is one but it's considered to be not authentic at the time that Dogen Zenji went to China he went to China in around 1225 when he went there the most influential shingi there was more than one but the most influential shingi was called the Zen Garden Pure Rules John Yuan Jing Gui and that text which was edited in edited John

[75:18]

Yuan Jing Gui we have those too those are shingis those are guidelines but the point of those guidelines is still that you read those guidelines and still try to find out what's appropriate today so for example they have in their guidelines about how to do zazen there's a zazen section in there it's called it's called zazen zazengi zazengi it's called which means the ceremony for zazen it's in that text the Chinese text and Dogen's early versions it's called zazengi I mean that's the Japanese way the Chinese way of saying it is swa chan i Dogen wrote a zazengi also he wrote fukan zazengi and his early version of fukan zazengi is very much like the one in this

[76:18]

shingi so the shingi has a zazengi in it and early soto zen has been pretty much copied verbatim not completely verbatim but different parts of verbatim from that text however that zazengi is not always appropriate to practice and the fukan zazengi even is not always appropriate to practice fukan zazengi means the universal or general encouragement for the ceremony of zazeng which means this works for most people most of the time but it's not always appropriate to follow those instructions none of these shingis should be followed all the time the way you literally read them but sometimes they should but we do have these shingis there's other shingis about how to wear the robe for example and how to enter the zendo how to do kihin how to get

[77:19]

on the tan how to cross your legs how to wear your robes how to shave your head and we do we have some tradition about how to do all these things however the abbess of zen center just told me that she went to do an ordination and the other abbess the way she taught her students to work with the robe was really surprising to her so within zen center people are doing certain ceremonies differently ok but that's part of practicing is that different teachers will teach different things and also your teacher will teach you in a way you don't like and so on so how to wear your robes how to clean your bowls how to eat with your bowls how to wash your face how to get in bed how to get out of bed these are Shingi and in their as you know Ehe Shingi and Zen-An Shingi

[78:19]

the Chinese and Japanese Shingi of our tradition have rules about how to do most of the activities of daily life but still these are basically just kindnesses offered by the ancestors for us to figure out how to live today together so like someone said to me after lunch today could we change the procedures about how and when to use Gomashio so there was a Shingi written about the use of Gomashio and I said yeah and this person seemed very happy when I said that we were practicing together you know in that way yes and Dogen's Shingi also talks a lot about the relationships among the people who live together too I mean there are lots of

[79:19]

things about comportment or how you relate to your teacher and to your senior students junior students yeah like Shouho was talking about hierarchy and there's rules in the Shingi about how to relate to people who are higher than you in hierarchy however what I'm emphasizing here which was not emphasized so much here when I say here I mean in the Shingi it was not so emphasized so much in early Buddhism early Buddhism gave regulations about how to relate to seniors too and for example it taught females all females even a female that had been practicing for 50 years was lower status than a beginning male monk so we changed that here we have a different arrangement here female monks who have been practicing 20 years are senior to male monks who have been practicing one they are junior to that

[80:19]

person and there are Japanese and Chinese Shingi which tell you how to relate to seniors however we have not yet fully how do we say we have not yet fully mined those teachings in other words people in the Zen center this Zen center are not yet familiar with the Shingi about how to relate to a senior and so part of what I would recommend in order to be creative is if you read the Shingi for example about how to relate to a senior and then discuss with someone for example me about how disgusting you find the Shingi because you are supposed to really really pay intense respect towards these seniors which we don't see too much around this place for good reason these people are like they have

[81:20]

been practicing 20 years and they are like that I am supposed to respect them uh huh yeah according to the Shingi of course but maybe that's not appropriate maybe years of practice don't really count here because practice doesn't have any effect on these people so I respect them but I tell you it does affect them you should have seen them before so you this person actually is like not as well developed as you are but they have been around longer than you but what you are respecting is not how great they are but how far they have come you respect that they have been practicing 20 years you are better than them I agree you have only been practicing one year so you only come along one year so we are respecting the 20 years of practice not how good this person is how are we going to work that out how is that going to be appropriate this is part of our creative work would be to look at that particular fascicle which we are not practicing

[82:20]

yet about how to relate to a senior which is an early vignette do it in a creative way say I read this and I have trouble with it what would you have trouble with how would you respect a senior let's talk about that that's part of our work

[84:11]

supposed to mean the Buddha recommended some way we can work with this and not that it seems apropos of world peace buddhas are into world peace that's what they are really about right these precepts are supposed to promote it we are overlooking some just because they are so obnoxious let's look at them overlooking them and not looking at them is violating them in a sense not respecting them and studying them is kind of violating them if we study them then we quickly start feeling restricted by them if you read these instructions you will be like voila it will be a problem if you took them literally but what can we find what would be the appropriate way to deal with the fact that we have different levels of experience this is I invite you to look at this and bring this forward from now on wherever you practice wherever you practice Zen or any other form of Buddhism deal with the fact the historical fact that seniority is an issue skill is an

[85:13]

issue too of course somebody who is really brilliant and clever and energetic of course people give them a lot to do they become the director or whatever sure but Buddhism also says somebody some kind of dumb not very energetic kind of wimpy and vulnerable person who has been practicing for 50 years is an object of veneration a young monk who is really sharp bows to some old woman who has been practicing for 50 years there is something to that in our tradition but we should look at it more and then there is other things too which we had some in government for example washing our face in a certain way doing certain chants various rituals that we could do I encourage us to look at that because those are the ways if we look

[86:13]

at them together those are the ways to transcend the contradiction between compassion and personal practice the apparent contradiction I don't hear any hauns or anything it's going? ok well thank you for opening your hearts to this great project of practicing together thank you thank you see you at the next ritual event

[86:50]

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