I've heard that the Buddha taught two truths. I've also heard the Buddha taught four truths. The two truths are in some sense two dimensions of truth or two realms of truth. And the four truths are the two realms of truth split into two sets of two. The two truths are sometimes called the conventional truth, or the truth of the world, and ultimate truth.

[01:05]

the truth from the perspective of the Buddha. The Four Noble Truths, in some sense you could call the first two truths, the truth of suffering and the truth of that suffering has an arising or an origin, those two are about conventional truth. And that there's an end to suffering and that there's a practice which is the end of suffering is ultimate truth, you could say. I could say. So the Buddha taught these two truths, conventional truth and the ultimate truth, or ultimate meaning of conventional truth. And the Buddha, also I've heard that the Buddha said or taught that without being grounded, without having a clear, a good foundation in the conventional truth, in ordinary daily life we share together, without a foundation in that world,

[02:34]

significance of the ultimate truth cannot be taught. And without contemplating ultimate truth, liberation cannot be realized. So, what I see implied here is that we have to contemplate the conventional world and ultimate reality. Both. And based on a contemplation of the conventional world, we can contemplate and receive the teaching of ultimate reality. Contemplating Ultimate reality in the proper way is the basis for liberation of all beings.

[03:41]

But in order to do that contemplation, we need to be grounded in the ordinary world of conventional reality. Conventional truth is that we're separate. Conventional truth is that there is suffering. And suffering is not random. There's conditions for it. Conventional truth is that there's a lot of suffering, virtually bottomless and endless. Conventional truth is that people are cruel to each other and sometimes nice.

[04:59]

Conventional truth is that people are sometimes very selfish and sometimes quite selfless. Conventional truth is that some people are supporting us and others are not. Or maybe some people's conventional truth is, nobody's supporting me and I don't support anybody else. Ultimate truth is that everybody is supporting us, and we support everybody. Ultimate truth is that everything that happens is a Dharma gift. Everything that comes from the time we're born to the time we're Buddha, everything is Dharma gift. No mistakes.

[06:03]

And we are inseparable from each other who support us and who we support. And we are inseparable from all Buddhas who practice together with each of us. When the earth is born, when the mountains are born and the rivers are born and the oceans and the sky are born and the great earth is born, we are born at the same moment. This is the ultimate truth, and when we realize that, we are liberated from self-concern, from the pains of self-concern, and we have great wisdom and compassion when we realize this truth. In order to appropriately and successfully contemplate this wonderful ultimate truth and realize it, we must be grounded, however, in conventional truth.

[07:12]

We can't deny the reality of separation and pain and cruelty of terrible, terrible phenomena. We have to contemplate and open to that truth. we need to practice, I say, we need to practice contemplation of the two truths, the two realities, which are inseparable from each other. And the contemplation must be undefiled or is undefiled.

[08:16]

So those ancestors which taught that all of us and all the Buddhas are just one mind. This truth does not require cultivation. It's already really what's happening. All we need to do is not defile it. And in order not to defile this wonderful truth, we need to have this undefiled contemplation even of the world where we seem to defile it. So both in contemplating conventional ultimate truth, we need our contemplation needs to be undefiled. Even while we contemplate the truth of the world of selfishness,

[09:24]

Our contemplation needs to be selfless. Even while we feel like we ourselves are involved in some selfish activity, we need to contemplate that selfish activity, that apparently selfish activity, in an undefiled, unselfish way. Is this possible? Yes, it is. When you hear the true Dharma, no doubts will arise, nor will you lack in faith. How can you practice this undefiled contemplation of the two truths? Well, there's probably infinite ways, but in Soto Zen, we have what is called the three pure precepts, the three pure bodhisattva precepts as the gate to the undefiled practice

[10:50]

And what are the three pure precepts? The first one is to embrace and sustain regulations and ceremonies. Or, you know, traditional forms or rules, and august manners. Sometimes in our precept ceremonies we say, I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct. Right conduct is a short form of this more controversial expression of regulations and ceremonies. And Embrace and Sustain is a translation of one Chinese word which is called Setsu, pronounced Setsu in Japanese.

[12:08]

And the character is composed of a radical, which is a character which means a hand, together with three ears. So it's like you listen, and you listen to these things, to these ceremonies and rituals, and then you enact them with your hand, which is shorthand for your whole body and mind. This first pure precept is especially concerned with contemplating relative or conventional and ultimate truth. The first pure precept in particular is concerned with realizing the true body of Buddha, the reality body of Buddha.

[13:13]

It's the Yeah, it's the true body of Zen practice, this first precept. Or it's the body of truth of Zen practice. The first pure precept. The second one is to embrace and sustain all good. And The third one is to embrace and sustain all beings. So the first one is a training ground in particular, where we train at contemplating the conventional world of selfishness and the ultimate world of selflessness. We train at contemplating those two worlds, those two truths, and we realize a foundation in conventional truth through this first pure precept, and we realize the ultimate truth.

[14:26]

And we realize, by realizing the ultimate truth, we realize selflessness. The second truth is, the second pure precept is like, it's basically just, you know, how it is to be selfless. It's just enjoying selflessness. It's the bliss body or the reward body of training yourself in selflessness. It's the big, you know, it's the social club of graduates of the course in selflessness. And after, and based on this, you know, in this being a member of this social club of bliss, all the members of the club sort of are extruded or, you know, are, what do you call it, extruded.

[15:40]

They're kind of like blissful. ejected from this realm of bliss into the ordinary world of conventional reality where they embrace and sustain all beings, which is really the point of the whole program, is to embrace and sustain all beings based on the happiness of selflessness. Zen training is concentrated in the first pure precept. And the fruit of Zen is the second two precepts, and particularly the third. The first one, again, is the true body, or the body of reality of the Buddha. The second is the bliss body of Buddha. And the third is the transformation body of Buddha. namely that enlightenment can take any form so that it can, if you excuse the expression, mate with all beings, so that it can embrace and sustain all beings.

[16:52]

It's enlightenment embracing and sustaining, adapting and meeting all beings in a way that will help them enter the training program or complete the training program if they've already entered Was that clear, what I just said? OK, so mainly I'd like to talk about then is the first one, the first pure precept, the pure dharma body, the pure body of reality. So actually I said, you know, three ears and one hand. So you listen. There's a listening or a seeing of the forms and then the hand tries it out.

[17:59]

So, for example, there's the form of the hand mudra. the hand mudra, well actually many hand mudras. One hand mudra is called the cosmic concentration mudra. And in that mudra we take perhaps, you could take the right hand and with the fingers together, with the four fingers together, and place it against your abdomen. Hands usually come with abdomens. And against your abdomen below your navel, and you touch your small finger, baby finger, to your abdomen below your navel. Then you place the left hand on top of the right and join the thumbs together, forming a lovely oval.

[19:01]

This is called cosmic concentration mudra, or cosmic concentration circle, or cosmic concentration seal of approval. Making this mudra, the entire universe approves your hands, and your hands approve the entire universe. You listen to the teaching and your hands become it. Another one is another where the hands, another mudra is the hands are kind of like, one hand is kind of like in a salute, you know, a salute, kind of a military salute. and the other ones like that too, and you bring them together in a prearranged location.

[20:13]

It can be wherever you want, pretty much, but you should decide where it's going to be so that you can have a regular place. You have regular hands, And they meet in a regular place, in a regular way, and you've got a regulation. And you have a ritual right here in these hands being joined in this mudra, which is called the hands joined or the palms joined. It's the name of this mudra. Those are two, actually, regulations and rituals for you to practice with. Two forms to practice with to realize selflessness. Two forms to practice with to realize the true body of Buddha, the true body of reality.

[21:21]

Now, maybe it's because I'm talking that I think that's amazing. that we have these little mudras which are done in a regular way, a traditional way, which are opportunities to realize ultimate truth upon which one can realize selflessness and liberation. But that's actually what's being proposed here as the first pure precept. There are also ways to contemplate conventional reality too. So how? How are the opportunities to contemplate conventional reality? Well, when you make the mudra, when some people make the mudra, when I make the mudra, there's an opportunity to realize self-concern, self-clinging.

[22:29]

So simple. Just put your hands in this mudra and after a while a thought may arise like, I have better things to do with my hands than this. Even the hands themselves without saying anything, you know, with nobody saying a word in the neighborhood of your head, with no little devils in your ears saying, this is really stupid to be putting your hands like this minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, even without that kind of like chatter, which sometimes happens. The hands themselves just stage what you call a walkout strike. The hands themselves say, I don't want to be in this mudra. Let's do something else. The hands themselves start becoming, you know, start walking around, start wiggling around. They don't want to like be in service of this precept. This is just not me.

[23:44]

This is not me. This is like, not only is it not me, but it's like, you know, to put them this way is kind of like giving in to some kind of like somebody else's program. It's like submitting to Reb Anderson because he likes this. He says to do it. He's forcing me to put my hands like this. Or if not him, blame somebody else. Or, you know, he's not only forcing me to do it or kind of like trying to trick me into doing, but he even sometimes tries to get some backup, referring to some other really cool people who have been living, you know, who are now dead. And he says that they did this and has photographs, you know.

[24:45]

And then on the bottom of the photograph, the person wrote, I did this a lot. And it was really good for me. It might be good for you, too. Signed, Shinryo Suzuki Roshi. Signed, all the Buddhas and ancestors. We all did this. Try it. Anyway, when I try it, my hands sometimes want to do something else other than the same thing over and over again. The self-concern surfaces when you put your hands in these things. And of course it's surfacing all day long, but it's hard to notice it sometimes. Because if you move your hands wherever self-concern wants to move them, you say, this isn't selfish. My hands are just doing this. But if you put them in this mudra, you can see the self-concern comes right out. What do we do with it, the self-concern?

[25:51]

Well, sometimes the hands go with it. Sometimes they don't. But either way, the self-concern comes out, if there is any. It surfaces when you put your hands in this mudra. Maybe not the first period, or the second period, or the ninth period, or the 400th period, or the 10,000th period, but eventually, the little sleazeball comes out of hiding. The little one who's trying, you know, because for a long time, you say, some people, right away, as soon as they put their hands like this, they say, weird, this is not me. This is not my style. This is like Japanese or, you know. We say, no, it's not Japanese. It's Indian. Okay, it's Indian. I'm not Indian. It's Buddhist. I'm not Buddhist. A lot of people who come to Zen Center, I interview them. I have interviewed them. I say to them, do you think of yourself as a Buddhist? And a lot of them say, no. Do you think of yourself as a religious person?"

[26:54]

A lot of them say, no. If I say, do you think of yourself as a Zen student, most of them say yes. They don't mind that so much because the word's out that if you're a Zen student, you don't have to be religious necessarily or the Buddhist. So I say, yeah, good. As a matter of fact, being a Zen student is kind of like you don't have to be anything, right? You can be nothing and be a Zen student. So yeah, I'm a Zen student. Sure, I'm a Zen student. Because Zen is like totally cool. You can be a hairdresser and be a Zen student. You can be an archer. You can be a machine gun operator. You can be a motorcycle maintenance person. You can do anything and be Zen, right? That's why it's very popular. It's a really good trick. Get all these people in the room and then you say, are you spiritual? No. Religious? No. Buddhist? No. But then you put your hand like this and you say, are you a Buddhist? Well, no, but I got my hands in this Buddhist mudra. Yeah. Just like all the Buddhas, like those statues, my hands are just like the Buddha. Like all those Zen people. I got trapped.

[27:54]

Well, I know how to get out of this. Just take my hands apart, just wiggle, you know. I'm not going to get trapped here. I'm not going to get trapped here. This is not going to get me. This isn't me. This isn't truly me. Well, gee whiz, where'd that come from? When you first walked in the door and sat down, you say, okay, sure, I'll try it. And then after a while, wait a minute, what's happening here? You've had your hands this way now for 10 years. When are you going to... Some people come in and they say, oh, put my hands in that mudra. Well, I'm going to be a Zen student. I'm going to be a Buddhist. I'm going to be a really good Buddhist. And I hold my hands just like that. And they hold their hands like that and they're very happy because they want to be a Buddhist because that fits right in with their program. And they hold their hands there and they say, yeah, it's good. I got them in. Now I'm really, I was a Buddhist before, but now I got my hands in this cosmic concentration mudra. I'm really a Buddhist. Like I'm like one of the best Buddhists.

[28:57]

I mean, there's a lot of Buddhists, but how many of them have their hands in the concentration mudra of the cosmos? Not that many, you know. Like among all the Buddhists, probably only 2% have their hands in this mudra right now. And I'm one of them. So I'm like really, I mean, immediately I obtained quite a bit. Just by putting my hands like this. And so that's nice. Self-concerns there. But I don't mind this kind of self-concern because it's self-concern where I'm getting quite a bit of out of the self-concern. And then you go on like that for one day, two days. But after many years, after a while, you realize it's not that much fun anymore. After the first few days, you've got all that. And now you haven't got anything since then. So why should you continue this mudra? So then at that stage, the self-concern starts coming out. Some of you are lucky. You got it after one day of practice period. You already realized you weren't getting anything out of this. This mudra, nobody gets anything out of this, really.

[30:01]

You think you do for a while, but you don't get it. This is not for you. This is for the whole universe. So you... the concern for you is going to rebel against this mudra eventually. Nobody made this mudra from the beginning of their practice and never indulged in it or rebelled against it. Everybody slipped and slided around it for a while until they finally just settled and the mudra was just the mudra. The conventional world is when you do the mudra, you do it, and you're doing it well or not well. And you get something out of it or you don't get something out of it. And if you get something out of it, you feel good. If you don't, you feel bad. Or if you get something out of it, you feel bad because you're not supposed to be getting something out of it. Or if you don't get something out of it, you feel good because you're not supposed to be getting anything out of it.

[31:04]

All these different maneuvers are just more self-concern. It just gets... The self-concern gets surfaced. In other words, you contemplate conventional world of selfishness, of self-separation, of independent self. And this contemplation, which is set up by making this mudra and watching the ordinary world manifest right around your hands, the whole world right there in your hands, you got the whole world in your hands. You got the little bitty baby in your hands. The whole world's there. The whole conventional world's there. And you writhe and you wiggle and you twist and you turn with this self-concern which is manifesting around this world right out your hands. You writhe and you twist and you turn and you fidget and you wiggle and you rebel and you indulge day after day, year after year.

[32:14]

Gaining and losing around this simple hand mudra. Gaining and losing around this precept, this first pure precept. Being proud of yourself for having the hand mudra of the Buddha. Being ashamed of yourself for being proud of yourself. On and on, moment after moment, you contemplate conventional reality. Until someday there's just the mudra. You're not doing it. They're not doing it. You're not getting anything. You're not losing anything. It's not you. You're not it. It is you. You're it. You're not identifying with the mudra or disidentifying with the mudra. There's just the mudra.

[33:19]

Selflessness is realized. And the whole universe is the mudra. And all the Buddhas and all living beings are giving you that mudra. And that mudra gives love to all beings. And you don't do it, and somebody else doesn't do it. It's just ultimate reality. So making the mudra, making the mudra day after day, year after year, we gradually sometimes roughly, sometimes gently, gradually become free of this extra stuff that we put onto the mudra or try to take away from the mudra. I'm a good boy. You know, I'm a traitor. I'm a sycophant.

[34:22]

I'm better than this, I'm not good enough for this, on and on and on. This mudra trains us and we feel restless, we feel uncomfortable with this training process. It's not pleasant, but this is called contemplating and being grounded in the conventional world. And using these forms as a way to actually actually contemplate the conventional world. Rather than just once in a while, you're doing it very specifically, moment after moment. You know, baby's hands make these mudras.

[36:21]

Baby's hands make many shapes, but if you watch baby's hands, you will see them make the Cosmic Concentration Mudra. Sometimes they sit up and they put their hands just like that. They make the Cosmic Concentration Mudra. They make other kinds of mudras. They put their hands together in gassho. They do all these mudras. Baby's hands do that. And people who train their hands in these mudras, when their hands aren't in the mudras, their hands often look like baby's hands, do baby kind of things. Not exactly baby kind of things, they kind of just move like baby's hands. These mudras are not arbitrary. They're cosmic forms. You can't keep baby's hands away from them. When you put your hands in these cosmic forms, you can't stop your hands from becoming like a baby's hands and like an old person's hands.

[37:34]

Your hands are set free by disciplining them, by willingly putting your hands in this discipline for one minute, for a thousand minutes, for a million minutes, your hands become released, and the vital energy of a newborn baby is flowing through your hands, which will sometimes lead them back into the mudras, but also just basically express that freedom of life in the form of your body on the earth at a certain place at a certain time. Training these hands, they become selfless hands. They become baby hands. They become the hands of the whole universe. Training your body, it becomes a selfless body and it becomes the body of the whole universe, the baby body, the fresh baby body of the whole universe.

[38:46]

And that baby body, of course, can happen anywhere in the world once the body at that place in the world has let itself train itself in such a way that it can see the self-cleaning, the self-cleaning which stops the body from being a baby body because adults are not supposed to have baby bodies. Adults are not supposed to put their fingers in there, in there, in there, in there. There's only certain in-there's under certain times that the adult body can put its fingers into. Right? That's the conventional world. But babies don't know, so they put their fingers in mommy's ear, in mommy's nose, in mommy's mouth. in daddy's ear, in daddy's armpit.

[39:49]

They pull on daddy's nose because they have baby hands. Now that we're adult, we've been trained to not be babies, we have to train ourselves to be babies. to selflessly touch each other. And in order to learn how to selflessly touch each other, we have to touch ourself and see if there's any selfishness there and face the selfishness over and over until the selfishness drops away Because we see it is necessary. You can actually put your hands together and just have the hands together and have it not be selfish or anything else.

[41:01]

And not think how long they're going to be here or anything else. And sitting still is another form. That stillness. And again there, we wiggle against it, or we indulge in it.

[42:06]

Oh, I'm sitting still. I am sitting still. I am sitting still. I have accomplished sitting still. And the people around me are wiggling. But I am sitting still. This is good. I am doing something good. And it feels good that I'm doing something good. Wow. Wow. I am a successful Zen student. I could even be a Buddhist now if I wanted to. I'm so successful I don't mind being a Buddhist. I am a good girl. I am a good boy. At this rate soon I'll be a walrus. You're so happy you think you're free. But really,

[43:10]

It's just a self-concern. And after a while, you get bored with it. You get bored with thinking you're better than the people around you who are wiggling. And they get bored hating you for sitting still. They get bored with thinking, I'm not going to be a good Zen student. I'm going to wiggle. I'm going to fight. I got a self, and I'm not giving it up. And those wimps who are sitting still, they haven't given theirs up either, but they're not admitting that they're not giving up. They're pretending like they're selfless, giving in to Buddha. What a trip. What a cop out. They're so dishonest. At least I'm honest. Yeah, go ahead, fine, no problem.

[44:14]

Be the worst N student of all time. You know? Well, at least I'm the worst. Yeah, you're not the worst. You're just flattering yourself that you're the worst. You'd like to be the worst. But you're just kind of average, you know? We have millions of them that have been fighting like this for eons. And we have millions of ones that are trying to be good and, you know, be the best. It's all this self-clinging is showing up. How much of it has to show up? I don't know. Quite a bit. Until you're done. Until you're cooked. Until you're just nothing but sitting. Nothing more, nothing less, just the Dharma body, the true body of the Buddha. That's all. Between now and then, you are just exactly like all Buddhas were before they got to that place.

[45:25]

They're all the same before they completely settle into these ancient forms and ceremonies, which are an opportunity to realize the selflessness, to see it, to see it, to see it. And by seeing it and the pain of that seeing it, we are purified. It washes itself away. It washes itself away. It washes itself away. But if you aren't there with it, witnessing it, somehow it doesn't wash away. You got to like witness this stuff. If you make the mudra, if you do these forms, you will witness it. And if you don't witness it, somebody else will. And they'll tell you. And then you'll witness it. You'll witness that they're wrong. That they're bothering you unnecessarily. You had it perfect until they pointed out to you that you thought you had it perfect.

[46:32]

You were the best Zen student in the room until someone noticed that you thought you were the best Zen student in the room, until you let it slip and told someone that you thought so. And then now you realize the consequence of that, that you've been put in the corner, the best student corner. Anyway, the form is wonderful. There could be other ones, but these forms, if you give yourself to them, they will show what you're trying to get out of the forms, or what you're trying to avoid in the forms, it will show. This is a way to train yourself at contemplating the world where you're resisting reality, ultimate reality, and conventional reality is what's happening, and opens the door to ultimate truth. The forms themselves, they're not arbitrary, but there could be other forms. The baby's hands do lots of different things.

[47:39]

We could use other forms. But once we choose them, then those are the forms, and that's what you fight with, or that's what you indulge in. That's what you separate yourself from or identify with. So this is the first pure precept. This is the true body of the Buddha. This is training in the true body of Buddha. This is the playground of bodhisattvas and the training ground of bodhisattvas. Any comments before we plunge back into the training program?

[48:48]

Yes? Oh, what are you? Are you a Zen student? Do you consider yourself a Zen student? He's one of that type. Yes, Kevin. Original Dragon. I definitely, I don't know if all of us see this, but how can you, does that, would anybody play in here anyway? I mean, like, I was thinking, like, you know, when you see that guy, and he's standing over there, and you're, like, my critical mind jumps in, and it gets critical of him, and then, you know, the other, the good sense dude might, oh, don't be critical of him, look at yourself, dude, okay, and there I am. And who? Like, uh, uh, Does equanimity play into this?

[49:49]

Well, equanimity is helpful in the midst of this dramatic situation. Equanimity is helpful. Patience is helpful to be able to watch the show. If you're impatient with your wiggling, you don't notice as much as if you're patient with your wiggling. Pardon? Yeah. Well, you could also move or wiggle and be irritated that you're wiggling because you maybe think that you wanted to not wiggle. So you can be not only wiggling, but impatient with your wiggling, okay? So you can be patient with your impatience.

[50:53]

At some level, anyway, just being present with what you're up to is helpful in understanding yourself. understanding that you think you're an independent self and understanding that you're not. Now, you could also, instead of being patient with your impatience, you could just be patient with the discomfort or the energy to express the self in some other way than just sitting still. You wouldn't have to let the process go so far. But at any point in the process, being equanimous and patient helps. Equanimous also means that you don't

[52:05]

You don't want to be different from what you are. The way you are is okay, and not being that way is okay too. So to equanimously observe yourself in your selfish activity, where you really don't wish that you weren't selfish, So the undefiled practice is that if you notice you're selfish, you don't wish you were otherwise. You just call a spade a spade. This is selfishness. Some might say, well, don't we wish we weren't selfish? We do, but that's not selflessness. Selflessness doesn't wish that we weren't selfish. Selflessness actually doesn't wish that we weren't the way we are.

[53:16]

Selfish selflessness also doesn't wish other people weren't the way they are. Selflessness is that the way people are is that they're just like they are, and the way they are is that everybody in the universe is giving them gifts right now. That's selflessness. Selflessness does not wish that this person or that person or that person or that person were not the way they are. Selflessness is the fact that this person is being supported by all beings and all Buddhas, and there's nothing else going on at that place. That's selflessness. Selflessness is appreciating what everybody is right now. Selflessness is appreciating what I am right now. therefore not trying to get anything or get rid of anything. Selflessness is not moving, not coming, not going.

[54:21]

It is embracing all beings and being embraced by all beings. So if you are feeling selfish, the undefiled practice with that selfishness is to appreciate that selfishness. that that manifestation of life is as precious, from the Buddha's point of view, as precious as someone who's not manifesting selfishness. From the human point of view, Buddhas are more important than sentient beings. They're more special. They are rare. Among sentient beings, Buddhas are rare. Even Buddhists say, yeah, they're rare. But Buddhas don't think Buddhas are better than sentient beings. They don't. And they don't think sentient beings are better than Buddha, but maybe slightly better. If you have to make one better, make sentient beings better than Buddha. Of course we appreciate Buddha.

[55:26]

But Buddhas appreciate Buddhas and sentient beings. appreciate yourself in this moment, that's Buddha. Even if they are wiggling because self-concern is, you know, working well, trying to get in a better position. But to move does not necessarily mean you're trying to get in a better position. To move might be just that you want to be in such and such a position. Not trying to be better, not trying to be worse, not trying to get anything. Appreciating the way you are and now appreciating the way you are. I appreciate sitting here, now I appreciate sitting here. Appreciation, appreciation, appreciation really

[56:32]

100%, no kidding. If you don't feel that way, that's fine. If you think this is a bunch of bunk, that's fine. If you accept the teaching that that's fine, that's called accepting the Dharma. Dharma allows us to think that it's not fine. Doesn't it? Because look, we do. What if you do something selfish and you see it clearly and you accept it totally, but what about you still creating karma or if you still see that there's some hurt somewhere? What if you see selfishness in yourself and you see karma created and you see hurt arising dependent on this selfishness and this karma?

[57:46]

You're asking, what if, what if that situation? What do you mean, what if? That's a situation, right? That's a conventional world, right? You're contemplating that conventional world. All right? So what's your question? Well, we talk about avoiding evil and doing good. So you're saying you have to totally accept that you can see yourself maybe hurting someone. So maybe you're seeing some evil here? So what do you do when you see evil? I mean, what's the practice when you see evil? The practice of seeing evil is you confess it. Right? I mean that's the undefiled practice is you see evil, you see evil, I see evil, that's it. If Buddha sees evil, what does Buddha do when Buddha sees evil? Buddha sees evil.

[58:47]

IS THERE ANYTHING MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE UPON SEEING EVIL THAN SEEING EVIL? AT THAT MOMENT, IS THERE SOMETHING MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE? LET HER SEE IF YOU NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE AT THAT TIME. YOU CAN SIT WITH THAT FOR A WHILE. YES, ROBIN? If we say, end all evil, then? If we say, end all evil, then doing something, responding. If we say, end all evil, then doing something, responding. If one of the beliefs is end all evil. The Buddha teaches end all evil, yeah. So if you're seeing it and acknowledging it and you confess it, whether it's your evil or something you're observing. This is about your own evil, not other people's, by the way. Is it possible then, at the time that you're also acknowledging it, to go take another step to end what it is you are seeing?

[59:54]

Okay, so she says, at the moment you acknowledge the evil, is it possible to take another step to end what you are seeing? Okay, so number one is, just excuse me for being a little kind of like specific about this, but when you see an evil, the evil has ended, okay? If it hasn't ended, you can't see it yet. So the little evil act, whatever it is, it has ended. We have, you know, packaged evil right there, a little package. So it has ended, that evil has ended. I figured it might have still been going on. Well, evil comes actually in little tiny packages. Well, I don't know, maybe you do it in big. But I do evil, you know, I can do evil like that. I don't do evil, it doesn't take me like five minutes to do an evil thing. Or like two weeks. I can do evil just like that, just like think, oh, I hate her, or something like that. That's all it takes. It's over, though. I did it. I can catch myself and you can catch me at evil very quickly.

[60:59]

I do it in little tiny, tiny little packages. But when I do it, it's over. That's one little evil thing. And then I can do another one and another one. I can, five minutes, I can do like, you know, many, many evil. I could think many evil thoughts and say many evil things and do many evil things with my body in five minutes. But let's just say I caught one little chunk of evil there. The conventional world is evil arises and goes away. That's the conventional world. Good arises and goes away. The conventional world is things come up and go down all the time. So I've got some evil coming up, and I notice it, and I acknowledge it. And then you're saying, could you take another step to end it? Watching evil come up and go down is the key element in the end of evil. It is the key element. It is the first step in ending evil, is to notice, here is evil appearing. And it has to sort of be a package in order for you to perceive it.

[62:01]

It can't be like an unfinished evil, because then you have to wait for it to get finished before you can see it. Because if it's not done, it could turn good at the last second. But let's say it's a nice, quick little chunk of evil. like a mean thought or a cruel word, evil. Hurts, harms, discourages, does not respect life. These are kind of evils, right? Little evils. Buddha said, end that. How do you end it? Number one, recognize it as evil. That seems to be, that's apparently a harmful thing that just happened that I thought or I said, all right? Now you're saying, how about ending it? I say, we've got the first step here. I did an evil thing. Now, if you want to end evil, then one of the things that helps to end evil is to hear the Buddha's teaching. Buddha's teaching is, please end evil. Please. I'm a Buddha. Guess what I have to suggest? End evil. So you say, hey, I like Buddha.

[63:03]

I'm going to try it. I'm going to be a disciple of Buddha. I'm going to learn about Buddha. I'm going to end evil. So you got this teaching from the Buddha of ending evil. So then you see yourself do evil. So then what do you think? You feel bad. You say, oh, this is not what I want to do. I said I wanted to end evil, but I just did evil, or I just thought evil. I don't like that. And I can't take it back. It's done. I don't feel good. And if you keep noticing these little evils or big evils that you do moment by moment in these little packages, you don't have to take another step after that. You just naturally start to feel worse and worse about doing things that you don't really want to do. You keep noticing, oh, there, I did it again. You know, get clearer and clearer. This is not the way I want to live. Oh, I did it again. Not the way I want to live. Did it again. This is not, this is not, I want to live like, I don't want to do this.

[64:06]

You get more and more clear that these things you're seeing yourself do are not what you want, not the way you want to live. You're totally getting more and more convinced to live like Buddha suggested. And this stops. You contemplate in a pure way, my evil, I feel bad, my evil, I feel... I contemplate my evil, I contemplate I feel bad, I contemplate, jeez, I wish I could practice the way I really want to practice. You contemplate these thoughts, wishing that you could practice the way you want to practice, wishing that you could practice in accord with good, that's noticing a good thing. But you don't have to confess your good things, turns out. But you do, you have to notice them. Otherwise, you can't just turn your awareness on for the bad things.

[65:10]

So that's how evil ends, by admitting it thoroughly in the moment. That's how it ends. There isn't another step. Seeing evil for what it is, is the end of evil. And it takes a long time to just see it as it is. But when you see it as it is, there's no more evil because you see that there isn't really the self, the selfish, cut off, isolated, frightened, cruel. There isn't such a person. There's only this very lucky person who's alive by the kindness of all beings who, when you see their kindness, you don't say cruel things then. Or if you do, you feel terribly bad. And after a finite number of cruel things that you do to the people who are kind to you, a finite number of those, you stop. You abandon it.

[66:12]

And your cruelty is replaced by great loving kindness, great compassion, great joy, and great equanimity towards all beings. But it comes from, moment by moment, letting what's happened be what's happened and not messing with it. And that's the training. Letting your hand be what your hand is. Let your cruel thoughts be what your cruel thoughts are. And the training is, to let these things be like that until adding and subtracting from it, wiggling from it, distracting yourself from what it really is, stops. And then you can really see that you don't want to do this and you do want to do that. Okay? Yes? What's the place of forgiveness? Do we need some forgiveness in this story?

[67:15]

Well, just tell me what forgiveness is and I'll tell you where it goes. So you got some evil? The appearance of evil? Yes. No, no. I'm saying that when evil happens at that moment, that particular little evil came and went, and you're aware of it, okay? So then why would I go on to forgiveness if the evil is ended for that particular, I hate this person, and forgiveness would then be, will I forgive myself for hating this person, or I forgive this person for hating me? Okay, let's be specific, okay? So let's say you have a thought, I hate this person. or I would like to hurt this person. They have that thought. You see that thought. You admit that thought. You did your job. And after you admit it, if you're a disciple of Buddha, you feel bad about it because it's off the, it's not part of the basic program here.

[68:35]

So you feel kind of bad. And you want to like, You kind of want to not do that anymore. Okay? So now do you need some forgiveness there? So tell me where it would apply. Can you see where it would apply? In the story I just told, we don't seem to need it, do we? Now, we can make another story where it might be needed, okay? Here's another story. Okay, I just thought, I just thought this, you know, cruel thought about Kathleen. I wish, you know, I wish Kathleen would, you know, fall down and, you know, scrape her knee. I thought that, and that's sort of like not, you know,

[69:36]

That's not kind of the way I want to be thinking. I feel bad about that kind of thinking. Anyway, I accept that. But I think now I'm going to, like, you know, what am I going to do? I'm going to, like, you know, take a two-week vacation from practice to punish myself for what I just did. I'm going to, like, go around and I'm going to take my knee and scrape it along the ground for about a week. That'll fix me. So in this case, well, maybe we need some forgiveness before I spend my time scraping my knee instead of paying attention to that I just did something that I would like to give up. So they might say, oh no, forgive yourself, Reb. You know, just forgive yourself and go back to work. So I would think forgiveness, I would see a place for forgiveness when you're distracted from your meditation practice, that you should forgive yourself and go back to work. That's a place I would see for forgiveness. In other words, you screwed up, but you're not kicked out of the meditation club.

[70:40]

You can still practice even though you made a mistake. Once you admit a mistake, you're in the Dharma club. If Buddha makes a mistake, Buddha says, that's a mistake. recognize a mistake as a mistake, you're back on the job. To indulge in any other kinds of wallowings and, oh, I'm so terrible, and I should punish myself or somebody else should punish me, that kind of stuff is just more of the same, more evil, more distraction. So maybe what you need is somebody to come and say, Kathleen, you are completely forgiven. You're okay, go back to work. Okay, fine, thanks. You can practice again. You're not excluded from the possibility of practicing wisdom and compassion. So I think if you actually see what you do, as such, feel bad about it, want to stop it, you don't need forgiveness. You've already forgiven yourself. But what some people do is they do something, they think they do something, which they really feel bad about,

[71:47]

And they feel so bad about it that they can't even face it. They go into shock and, you know, withdrawal from facing this bad thing they did because they feel so bad they can't face how bad it is. So then since they can't face how bad it is, they can't even, like, wish they didn't do it. So they need forgiveness to, like, go back and look at it. So we forgive you. Now would you please go back and, like, get... Remember what you just did? So the ways we distract ourselves from facing what we're doing, maybe we need forgiveness to get back on the job of realizing what a jerk we just were. So like, we forgive you. Yes, you can be a jerk. You can admit you were a jerk, I mean. That's the place I see for forgiveness. Anybody see any other function for forgiveness? Yeah. Yeah. takes the place of blame.

[72:51]

Because they take the place of blame or just takes away, doesn't, it protects you from slipping into the indulgence of blame. So, I guess I would say, if you have to like decide whether you're going to forgive yourself or blame yourself or forgive somebody or blame somebody, then forgive. But if you can just have the experience without getting into blame, which is a kind of distraction from your meditation, So like, okay, I thought of a cruel thought. Now I blame myself. Well, how about just look at the truth, at the cruel thought and deal with it? But if you can't and you're starting to veer off into like punishment rather than face what you did, then forgiveness would probably be helpful. It's kind of a reorienting to the meditation is the way I see forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean it didn't happen. Forgiveness means if you care, you know, about paying attention to what you're doing and you pay attention to the mistakes you make, you're doing your job.

[73:54]

That will take care of the evil you've done. You will eventually stop if you pay attention to it. A big mind doesn't like to do evil. So if evil happens in a big mind, a big mind feels bad about it. And a big mind can say, okay, I can see that evil. That's enough for the moment. And that evil then will, you know, it will come to its conclusion. It will bring its results. You'll see how it goes. You'll learn. And that process will be the end of evil. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You mean like you? Pardon? So somebody's outside who's not a Zen student, yeah? Yeah.

[74:59]

Yes. Yeah. Uh... In the story you just told, I didn't see ceasing of evil. I saw evil, but I didn't see the ceasing of evil. The story you just told was a story of evil, but not the ceasing of evil. Because you thought he did evil. So that's evil without you noticing that you did evil. Okay? In the story you just told about... The evil was you thinking that he did evil. That was the evil. Huh? I have no idea whether that was an evil act, but you calling it evil, that's for sure evil.

[76:06]

And then, if you would admit that that was an evil act, if you're blaming that, you're blaming, right? If you would admit that you did an evil act, then that's the end of evil. Yeah, they might be able to do it. Well, he has to get back up on the ton so they can push him again. But if you see evil, okay, in another, that's an evil. Buddha does not see people doing evil. Buddha sees people thinking that they're doing evil. Buddha sees people who are being supported by all beings, as the Buddha sees, and sees that they are supported to think that they're not supported. And because they think they're not supported, they're miserable. And in their misery, they do all kinds of things in response to that.

[77:15]

But they're not actually doing the evil. There's nobody home there doing it. It's just suffering leads to these harmful acts. The conventional truth may be that somebody saw evil, but seeing other people do evil is not really the practice. Even though a lot of people seem to be really good at seeing other people do evil. But you seeing other people doing evil or me seeing other people doing evil, that's now how evil gets abandoned. Evil gets abandoned by me seeing me do evil and me feeling bad about it. I haven't seen that me seeing your evil has helped you abandon evil, but me seeing that when I think of you as evil, for me to realize that that's evil, that leads to abandonment of evil. Because I feel bad thinking that way about you, and you do too, but you can't abandon me thinking bad about you.

[78:18]

You can't even abandon me thinking good about you. But what you can abandon is your attachment to your own stuff. And if you can see your evil and abandon it, if anybody needs your help, you're there to help. If Stuart needs your help, Stuart can say, just before you push me off, go talk to Lee. You know, Lee's got something to say to you. He's a very helpful person. He's like in touch with his evil. You know, I'm not, so go over there. But if Stuart's in touch with his and he's ended evil, then when the person pushes him, he can help the person if the person needs any help. Yes? Technical question? About conventional truth. If conventional truth is separation and good and bad, or if it's the occurrence of separation.

[79:29]

It's the appearance of separation and the appearance of good and bad. If you say it really is separation, then you're saying, yeah, then you're saying there is this thing called separation, but actually it's the appearance of separation. Ultimately, there is no separation. But like ultimately there is no wall over there, but conventional reality is I call that a wall. Do you? Yeah, we agree that we'll call that a wall, and it satisfies what we usually need to call it a wall. And so we have the appearance of a wall, which we conventionally say a wall exists. And we have the conventional definition of separation. Yeah. Okay. Is there anybody else? Yes. What about... There are a couple of situations in my life where I feel like they involve myself and other people and I just feel like I want forgiveness.

[80:38]

You want... You'd like someone to say, I forgive you? You're saying? Yeah, so what is that? Can you help me see where that... Okay, so like, let's see, I have in my... I have in my... MY PERCEPTION IS I FEEL LIKE, MAYBE I FEEL LIKE I DID SOMETHING WHICH I THOUGHT WAS MAYBE HARMFUL. LET'S JUST HAVE THAT EXAMPLE. I FEEL LIKE I DID SOMETHING THAT WAS HARMFUL. THAT PERSON WAS HARMED. THEY FELT IT WAS HARMFUL TOO, OKAY? AND I WOULD LIKE THEM TO FORGIVE ME. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? IS THAT AN EXAMPLE? Well, it seems to me that the contemplation of conventional reality might be supported by me trying to find some way to tell them that I'd like them to forgive me or to ask them if they could. And if they say, no, I can't, and I say, well, what I would like you to, is there anything I can do that would help you forgive me?

[81:43]

And they might tell you what you could do to help them forgive you. And you might say, I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to do that because I would like you to forgive me. Somehow the way I am is I'd like you to forgive me. So then you do that and then they forgive you. And that's meditation on conventional reality. But that meditation on conventional reality brings you closer to being able to meditate on ultimate reality. So do you think that that's me trying to get something? No, it wouldn't... I mean, is it necessary to have that actualized between two people in conventional reality, externally? Would there be a situation where I really needed the forgiveness of that experience? When the feeling arises in me that I have done something that's cruel, so cruelty is the main thing I call evil.

[82:52]

So when I see an evil called cruelty and I admit it, I say that's the Dharma, is to admit the cruelty I've done. Okay, number one. Number two, if I did it to another person or another living being, if I did something cruel to someone else, besides myself, let's just say, after I see that I did it and I don't want to do it anymore, that particular act, I still may feel like it would support the activity of meditation on conventional reality for me to actually tell that person that I want this. Take it back. Take one step back. I feel that what arises is now not a feeling to harm, but a feeling that I would like something from the person. So admitting that I want something is also meditation on conventional reality. I want something from someone who I may think is separate from me. So I go to this person and I tell them what I want. I might even say to them before I tell them what I want, I may say, may I talk to you?

[83:58]

May I tell you something I would want? And let's say they say yes to those two questions. Say, what I want is your forgiveness. And I'm willing to do, I'm willing to do and work with you to help you forgive me because I want that. This can all be part of meditating on what is conventional reality? What is it that I want this forgiveness? What is that? What is it that I want to repair the damage done in my relationship? What is that? That's conventional reality, but maybe it's also like getting close to ultimate reality. Because ultimate reality is that I'm connected with everybody and everybody's helping me, and I'm helping everybody. So if I do cruelty, it contradicts ultimate reality. So when I want someone to forgive me and I'm willing to do something to help them forgive, it's a step towards ultimate reality through contemplating how conventional reality works.

[85:09]

That becomes a basis. And it's possible that being aware that you hurt someone that you're unkind to someone and you feel bad about that because it contradicts the reality which will set you free and that you're willing to work to like, in some ways, to get closer to the way you really want to be with the person, which is help them forgive you. That could be a way to get very close and touch ultimate reality through working with a painful conventional situation. I think wanting forgiveness means that we're aware of a mistake. So wanting forgiveness is often connected to dharma awareness. And wanting forgiveness is not just, I want the forgiveness for myself, but I want to do something which tells the other side of the story from the side of the story where I felt separate from the person and did something cruel.

[86:13]

Maybe they can help me understand what connection means for them. And if I can understand it, then that's what connection means for me. And this way we work back and forth until we actually realize the ultimate truth based on the conventional world. They're not separate, these two truths. So feeling harm or evil and admitting that That's a way to get back to ultimate truth. In the same way with a form, you know, when you do a form sloppily, to negotiate with the form, to get back to intimacy with the form, is using the form in the conventional world to realize just the form. And using the relationship with someone else until you get set so you have just the relationship anymore, where there's no harm, there's no separation, there's just the relationship. Hard work, but there it is.

[87:19]

Subtle work, but there it is. Everything okay now? Had enough? They are intentional.

[87:43]

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