This morning I chanted the Pukhamsa Zangi and in there, as you know, it says, Once you've settled into steady mobile sitting position, think of not thinking. So the In the situation of sitting, so in the sitting position, we think of not thinking. In other words, we sit there, tranquilly, without seeking anything. Thinking of not thinking. Thinking of not thinking about seeking something. And then how do you do that? Well, it's beyond... You're not really, you're not actually even thinking of not thinking, or you're not thinking of not seeking, even.

[01:08]

But in fact, you're sitting there not seeking, and not thinking of the distinction. There is a distinction, but not thinking of the distinction between yourself and others, or the distinction between grasping at what's grasped, or this distinction between Buddhas and sentient beings. This is the essential part of zazen. And this zazen is not limited to sitting posture or reclining posture. it's the dhamma gate of repulsing bliss, it's totally culminated in enlightenment. So the Buddha's zazen, the Buddha's practice is enlightenment. Enlightenment is to be in whatever form is manifesting with no seeking, no any discriminations.

[02:22]

And if you think about that, then you might think it's impossible to practice like that. Right? But don't think about it. That's the Buddha's samadhi, that's the ancestor's samadhi. And in that samadhi, things are going on like you read about at noon service. And this stuff doesn't appear in perception. This is the way actually perception is operating, in this inconceivably enlightened way. But if we are caught up in seeking and distinctions,

[03:27]

because we're looking at seeking and distinctions, we don't open to the world of Buddha's samadhi. Today I want to take another step and just relate this samadhi to the Bodhisattva precepts. It's been noted before that sometimes we say, you know, we speak of the teaching, avoid all evil, practice good, and clarify the mind. It's early, early teaching. Or another teaching is, avoid evil, practice good, and save all beings. And then I often speak of the three bodhisattva precepts as embracing and sustaining forms and ceremonies, embracing and sustaining all good, embracing and sustaining all beings.

[04:34]

So what's the relationship between, first, this thing about avoiding evil, bodhisattva precept of embracing forms and ceremonies. It looks like in the early teachings when the Buddha taught avoid evil, practice good, clarify the mind, it looks like the way people understood that was avoid evil while still making a distinction between good and evil. But the Bodhisattva precept, in one sense, the Bodhisattva precept of embracing forms and ceremonies

[05:38]

from the Buddha's samadhi. It emerges from the mind which is not seeking and not being caught by desire. That precept emerges from there as not doing any evil. So the kind of activity that emerges from this samadhi is avoiding all evil. That's the kind of action that comes from there, is avoiding evil. But it's avoiding evil in the context of not being caught by the distinction between evil That's what makes it the Bodhisattva precept of embracing forms and ceremonies.

[06:50]

It's not wrong to say that it's avoiding evil. It is. It's avoiding evil from this mind, which doesn't get caught by any discriminations. So this precept includes avoiding evil, but this precept is also the dharmakaya. Because it's this mind, not caught, this mind which is so big or small that you can't measure it. It's big or small. It's a mind which doesn't get caught by anything. certainly not caught by evil. It doesn't even get caught by good. And from that mind comes avoiding evil.

[07:57]

From dharmakaya comes avoiding evil. So the actual, the activity, the karmic activity from this mind is the avoiding of evil. And It uses forms and ceremonies to demonstrate avoiding evil. But it does these forms and ceremonies without seeking and without distinguishing between doing them and not doing them, or doing them correctly or incorrectly. And then from that comes avoiding evil in forms and ceremonies. So once again, the bodhisattva precept of embracing forms and ceremonies is in accord with the instruction, avoid evil. You combine the avoid evil with the mind that's not caught by distinctions.

[09:07]

That makes it the bodhisattva precept, the mahayana precept. There's another precept. which is avoid evil while still making distinctions. And that's, of course, still good. It's good to avoid evil, even if you make distinctions. That would be to avoid evil, to avoid doing things which will make you unhappy. Because there's still a distinction there, it's not enlightenment itself. And I'll just mention, but I won't go into it right now, and you can remind me later, that this is a distinction that the Buddha makes when he talks about, for example, two kinds of right view, one that's tainted,

[10:14]

and one is not. I'll just hold that for now and stop here. When you speak of avoiding evil, does it extend away from thanking? What is it this thanking for? Is there one way to avoid? Would you say it again, please? Bowen. If I'm going to avoid evil, wouldn't it be safe to say that I don't even think evil? Would it be safe to say that if you're going to avoid evil, you would think of evil? Thinking of evil. If you think of doing evil, then what's the difference between avoiding it and thinking about it? Oh, the difference between avoiding? So like if you're thinking of evil and you wouldn't do it, you mean? So that's one kind of avoiding evil is you would think of evil and then you wouldn't do it. And you might think, oh, that's evil, and you might actually seek then to avoid it.

[11:25]

So that would be avoiding evil. That wouldn't be the Bodhisattva precept. That would be a precept that's not an expression of the Buddha Samadhi, but the expression of a person who's thinking of evil and thinking, I want to avoid it, and really sincerely thinking, I want to avoid it. But being caught in that, I want to avoid it. So what's the difference between the bodhisattva not thinking and avoiding it? The difference between, pardon? He said, what's the difference between a bodhisattva not thinking and avoiding the evil? The difference is that the bodhisattva avoids evil. that they're not caught by thinking, they just naturally avoid evil, because their mind is free of discrimination.

[12:31]

The Bodhisattva precept about being free of discrimination and free of seeking. So they avoid evil with... The avoiding evil emerges from their mind. The kind of mind they have naturally avoids evil. They don't have to think of evil to avoid it, and if they think of evil, they don't have to think of avoiding it. So, if we think of evil... Yes. If you think of evil, yes, and... So, if the bodhisattva doesn't think of evil, then you can avoid evil. If we think of evil, we can avoid evil. No, you can still... Even if you think of evil, you can still avoid it, but then you're... You're like thinking of evil and then trying to get away from evil.

[13:32]

And so you're kind of, you know... And then you don't feel very enlightened at that time. You feel kind of like, get away from that evil, got to get over here, you know, avoid that evil. And you get so tired avoiding evil sometimes you think, ah, I might as well just do something. I've got to spend all my time avoiding evil and I should occasionally just try a little. Since I'm always living here in evilville, I also just do a little evil. So we get into trouble that way. We get tired of avoiding all the time. And sometimes we get so tired of avoiding that we become at risk of indulging. I mean, it seems like people know about that, right? It gets kind of boring to always be over on the avoiding side. And then we expect to spend a lot of time thinking about evil, too. Got to think about it. Why do we have to think about it?

[14:34]

Well, because I've been thinking about it so much, I have to keep thinking about it. Bodhisattva doesn't think evil. It just means that when they do think of evil, they don't get caught by it. They're completely free of it. Their mind is, in a sense, beyond the thoughts of evil and good. So they're not caught by thinking. The mind of non-discriminating wisdom is not caught by thinking or non-thinking or not thinking. or good or evil, and it doesn't get tired out by being hung up on thinking and seeking. I think that's what I was trying to say, and to even think. Bodhisattvas and Buddhists can do more or less anything,

[15:34]

They could, but they can't do it compulsively. They don't have to. You know, they often use examples of bodhisattvas, sometimes they call bodhisattvas like a scarecrow. The mind of a bodhisattva is like a scarecrow. Or a bodhisattva's mind is like a scare-deer, a deer scare. They have these little bamboo tubes in Japanese gardens or Chinese gardens, probably, too. And the one end is open, usually at a slant. And it locks in the stream or something. And it's set there so that the water will run into it. And when the water runs into it, it's on a pivot. So as the water fills it, it turns. It turns and pours out the water that filled it.

[16:38]

It pours out. It swings back to where it was before. That make sense? And it goes... And the deer go... When you're in these gardens, occasionally you hear this... Not necessarily a deer, but anyway. The thing is like Bodhisattva's mind. You fill it with water, it tips, it pours out, and it snaps back. It just operates according to circumstances, and it has no attachment. And it doesn't do any evil. Because it's not hung up. But it could, you know, you could say to a bodhisattva, have you ever heard of evil? And they say, yeah. So what do you think of it? And then they can then do something like that scared ear does, in response.

[17:41]

Like one time, Suzuki Roshi was, he went into the Zen building, Like that. He went into the zendo as Sokoji, stepped inside the door, and bowed. And then a student came in behind him and ran into him while he was bowing. He was bowing like this, and the student ran into him. And then he went like this. And, you know, jab the student in the chest with his elbow. He's a big student, so he got him right in the stomach. So you're like this. You're like this, and you hit the butt. Hit the butt of the teacher. The butt goes in like this, the elbow goes back like that. And we never knew, I mean...

[18:43]

whether we didn't interview the Bodhisattva afterwards, you say, now, did you intentionally hit him in the stomach, or is that just mechanical reaction there? They bumped your butt, you jabbed their gut. So I don't know whether that was the or human, you stupid student. If it was a human, it was not avoiding evil, maybe. But if it was a bodhisattva, just that reaction, it's like there wasn't evil. He wasn't caught by good either. He's not like, oh, I'm a Zen master, I'll whack him once. Just a simple mechanical reaction. There's no evil in that. Evil really, according to this, you really can't find it. The relic isn't something you can find called evil. We want to become free of evil, right?

[19:45]

We don't want to prove the relic is evil, once and for all, and pin it on somebody. We want to become free of it. The way to become free of it is to become free of the mind from which it arises. And it arises, which bodhisattvas eventually become free of by this Buddhist meditation. So they can think and they have a body and it responds, but there's no clinging or seeking. There's a bigger thing going on than small little human dramas about you're supposed to buy. Don't run into me. It's not at that level, you know. It's bigger. And so that So in that case, it didn't seem like a real evil thing happened there. Now, if you say, oh, he really did try to hurt him, more than it was evil. But I don't think it was. I don't punish him. I think it was just mechanical. And I could be wrong.

[20:46]

I'm not attached to that. Yes. Would you come up here, please? Sure. Sorry, I didn't ask you to come here. I'm okay with that. You're okay with that? Either way? Okay. So my question is, action free of discrimination appears to be good. It might not appear to be good, but it would avoid evil. It would avoid evil. Like, for example, the example I just used didn't necessarily appear good. Like, you know, you could bump into me, or I could bump into you, and you might bump into me, and you might say, That was good. Or I might fall down. And you wouldn't necessarily think that was good, but you might really feel like, well, he fell down, but he avoided evil.

[21:55]

He didn't, you know, he didn't hate me when he was falling for bumping into him. He just fell. That was it, you know. He didn't blame me, he didn't blame himself. It's just that the physics of the situation is when my body touched his and he was in that position, he fell and... That wouldn't necessarily look good, but it probably would look like no evil was done. We managed to have this bumping into each other without an avoided evil together. So there's another precept called doing good, right? And that would maybe more often look like doing good. Avoiding evil might not feel good. It's quite a feat to avoid evil. It's a big deal, actually. But it's so big, it doesn't necessarily feel good.

[22:56]

It's like vast space. Avoiding evil is like vast space. It doesn't necessarily look like good. But the next precept is doing good. That's also done in the same context of the fear of discrimination, but now it's more of an enjoyable, positive arena. So we don't hear many stories about bodhisattvas manifesting in evil, like doing evil actions. So I guess what you're saying now is that they're embodying the precept of doing good. We don't hear stories of bodhisattvas manifesting evil. Is that what you said? I did. Right. But not hearing a story about them doesn't mean that you don't hear stories about bodhisattvas when they manifest avoiding evil.

[24:02]

There's a lot of stories about them when they're avoiding evil. Those are stories where you don't necessarily think, oh, they did good. There's a lot of stories like that. where it doesn't seem like they do good. They do something more spacious, more, you know, in a space where then when people interact with them, they respond from that place and they demonstrate. And you could say it's good, but a lot of times it's like where they're just kind of unmoved in situations where other people would often do evil. they don't seem particularly good at what they do. For example, they don't get angry. Like, you chop them up into little pieces, and they just get chopped up into little pieces. It doesn't seem like they did something good. Now, you say, well, they were patient. Yes. You say, well, that was fine.

[25:03]

But basically, they didn't do the evil because they were basically good, called patience. which you could see, but mostly what you see is they didn't do... Most people would do evil when getting chopped up. They don't. So the... One is they were practicing patience, which was good. The other was they didn't hate the people who were chopping. Buddha tells that story, right? King Kalinga chopped me up into little pieces, but I didn't hate him. I didn't give rise to evil. when he was chopping me up." So that would be avoiding evil because of this mind which is connected to patience. And the big patience is the patience of non-discrimination. That's the biggest patience. To accept non-discrimination. So there's a lot of stories about bodhisattvas doing good

[26:07]

where the issue of avoiding evil is not very strong. Like they see somebody who needs help, and they help them. But there's also stories when there's a lot of violence or something, where they respond with nonviolence. And then there's stories of bodhisattvas helping people. So all three of those precepts, these stories about bodhisattvas helping people, doing and being very spacious, and evil just finding no function. I guess my question is that, in a sense, doing good is avoiding evil, and so within non-discriminative mind there seems to be a desire to do good, or to be good. It's not like we have non-discrimination and therefore everything that we do is okay.

[27:12]

but rather we manifest some sort of goodness. And that could take the form of avoiding evil. That's true. So the mind itself is spacious, but there is compassion in the middle of it, which could manifest as avoid evil, do good, or help people. That's living right in the middle of it. Non-discrimination is emphasizing the avoiding, the not doing evil, is emphasizing the spacious quality of this mind. The helping people is emphasizing the will to transform into many forms. That's the nirmanakaya, is the... Saving all beings is the nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya is the avoiding evil part.

[28:14]

The nirmanakaya is the helping the people part. The dharmakaya is the doing good part. So that corresponds to the three bodies, to the three pure precepts. But all three bodies are there in the Buddha mind. that the non-discriminating part of the Buddha mind, the not-seeking part of the Buddha mind, is the dharmakaya. It's the vast, spacious body of wisdom. The nirmanakaya is the willingness for that wisdom to manifest in whatever appropriate form. The sambhogakaya is this bliss body of all that happens when the great vast body manifests in particular ways. So three pure precepts and three bodies go together like that. But in a sense, you start, you can start.

[29:18]

There's a certain phase where you look first at the ultimate, which is nondiscrimination. But in fact, a lot of people first of all hear about the conventional, which is the nirmanakaya, the person trying to purchase the... ...approach through that person, the teaching about nondiscrimination. And then, from nondiscrimination, these three bodies are manifest. This is maybe a little in the same realm as Kaslan's question. I'm not sure. So we have a lot of little baby boy suffers. And one, one just tiny one. Baby boy suffers so much of a baby.

[30:23]

Jamie had a baby. My Lord. And that baby probably doesn't suffer from this thing that I'm going to suggest that maybe the rest of the baby bodhisattvas suffer from, which is having some accumulation of mental or emotional habit energies that are perhaps, as we were talking about earlier, not in harmony with our heart or our intentions. And to work on those or to practice some retraining of those habits, of those energies, seems like that requires some discrimination. And yet it does seem like it's most effective when it comes out of... out of willingness, specific behavior at a specific moment.

[31:25]

So maybe you could talk about that. Was your question clear? They were confused. Welcome back, Andrea. Welcome back. Was it clear? Either how to or whether that's even in the ballpark. Whether it just takes the mind of distinction to . I guess it's easy for you to see that you could notice a behavior that seems to be at odds with some of your heart commitments. So you notice that thing, and so you can see that you can make a distinction between that way of behaving and another way that might be more appropriate. So you're wondering how to work on that situation, including the habit patterns which sort of give rise to this behavior.

[32:35]

Can you do that without... From a nondiscriminating point of view. I think you can do it from a nondiscriminating point of view. Yes, definitely. I think so. In other words, one could open to this nondiscriminating mind prior to having worked out all your karma, all your habits. You don't have to be completely free of your habits in order to realize this mind. So now if you have realized this mind, you can still use this mind from this moment to work on noticing that this behavior is is one that you feel is not in accord with this mind or your vow to help people. Some of your own behavior could be not in accord with these three pure precepts, in other words, slip into evil.

[33:41]

And even though you realize this mind, at the moment of realizing this mind, you probably don't. But you can see in the next moment, perhaps, something emerging from that mind, some physical action, You could observe that and be aware of that with no seeking, and not being caught by the distinction between this behavior and more skillful behaviors, or this evil response, this unskillful response, response, and a kind response. You could notice that, see the distinction, and not be caught by it. And from there, confess it and repent it, without any distinction between confessing and not confessing, or repenting and not confessing, without being caught by that. So this would be a very nice environment in which to practice confession and repentance.

[34:47]

So it would be to practice the continual awareness of it and the confession and repentance when it goes astray. It's kind of like the awareness of this type of thing is sort of in the ballpark of doing good precepts. The confessionary conscience sort of falls maybe into the doing good part. And doing good can be done under the auspices of the avoiding evil. While you're confessing, we have this big mind which avoids the evil of judging yourself, you know, of being caught by the discriminations around things you're confessing. Just like a good listener, a good confessor could listen to your confession and make a distinction between the unskillfulness which they're hearing and some other behavior. and they could listen to you and feel good about your confession, and not seeking that they'll never hear a confession from you again.

[35:54]

Not seeking that you... They would want you to evolve, but if you come back the next day and the next day, they don't say, you're still confessing? Haven't you got over that yet? Or they could say that, but it wouldn't be coming from... from being caught by discrimination if they had this mind, right? So you could do that with yourself too. So there is, like we say in the ordination ceremony or Samantabhadra's vows, Samantabhadra vows to do confession and to continue to do confession until all sentient beings are basically free. But since it's going to be a while before they're all free, I'll probably be doing confession for a long time. I, Samantabhadra, and they're going to keep doing confessions. The great bodhisattva of the Avatamsaka Sutra is vowing to do confessions until all sentient beings are free. The great bodhisattva is going to do that?

[36:56]

What's he going to have to confess? But with Samantabhadra's mind there, So Samadbhadra with this great mind, this universal goodness mind, is practicing confession and vowing to continue. We say, yes, you can have step to confess even when you're practicing with this mind. Because you're doing this for all beings. Your mind is the mind of all beings after a while. Thank you. ...hands raised.

[38:21]

I just also mentioned that this is kind of parallel to the two kinds of 8-Bowl Path. One kind of 8-Bowl Path has the same names, and one kind of 8-Bowl Path is the Noble 8-Bowl Path, which is, you know, right view, right attention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. That's a noble right view, noble right intention, and so on. So that would be the view in the context of this nondiscriminating wisdom. And this would be the intention in discriminating vision. But there's also the right view, which the key point in right view, I think, for me, is the view of cause and effect, the view that action has consequences, the view that there is consequence of skillful and unskillful action.

[39:45]

That's the center of right view. And noble right view would be enlightenment, looking at an enlightened view, or the view of cause and effect in the context of nondiscriminating wisdom. That would be the noble right view. And then from noble right view comes noble right intention, which, with nondiscriminating wisdom, effect, then with nondiscriminating wisdom you wish to renounce any distractions from this awareness of cause and effect, from this nondiscriminating awareness of cause and effect, renounce any distractions from that. And you only have good will towards people and nonviolent thoughts, nonviolent intentions, nonviolent intention and good intentions.

[40:57]

There can be a mundane right view, which I think almost everybody in this room has at least that, which is that you have the view that actions have consequence. and you are devoting your attention to your actions. But if there's any seeking in your practice of attending to your actions, which you have the view will have consequence, then it's mundane right view. Still right view, you're still looking at the same thing that an enlightened mind also watches cause and effect. It's just seeking in it and not being caught by discrimination.

[42:03]

And in the Buddha's first discourse, the Buddha said, I found the middle way. And what is the middle way? It is noble right view, noble right intention, and so on. Noble right view is the middle way. But if there's any seeking in your right view, then that's not the middle way. It would tend towards being able to enter the middle way sometime. So the Buddha says that one kind of right view is affected by taints. It's meritorious, and the merit is on the side of attachment. So when there is seeking, in the seeking process there's a point of attachment.

[43:14]

And if you seek to do good, the merit of doing good is the point of attachment in the seeking process. Or if you make discriminations and get caught by them, there's a point of attachment there. And the merit of practicing right view will mature at the point of attachment in the discrimination. Right view. It is right view. It's correct view. But then there's noble right view, which doesn't have any point of attachment. So then the Buddha says, then there's noble right view, and he doesn't say it isn't affected by taints. Maybe it does. It isn't affected by taints. He doesn't say that it's meritorious, and he doesn't say that the merit matures inside of attachment because there isn't any. He just says it's noble, untainted, and it's liberation.

[44:17]

It's the middle way. calm and ease and enlightenment and nirvana. So, all the good practices that we do here can be mundane good practices or super-mundane practices. And the difference being whether that bodhisattva mind, whether that bodhisattva samadhi is accompanying the good actions. And then the noble path. But the contents could be the same, virtually the same. Yes.

[45:24]

Could you come up here, please? You mentioned nonviolent intention. Yeah. Intention to be nonviolent. Right. Which I think is the intention in my life, especially, not especially, but certainly in the kitchen. And yet, last week I spoke to someone, and the words were not violent, and I didn't hit them, but my energy. In a violent way. So although my intention wasn't violent, there was violence.

[46:27]

So your intention was violent, it just didn't manifest in words. Your body, your body... Because the energy... You know, your body posture, the energy of your body, the energy of your body manifested as, you know... Even if I didn't move in that way. What? Even if I didn't move in the way that you just did. I mean, the sound of your voice, you know, or the look on your face. Something. There's something. We can have a look on our face at ascension or... you know, looking down on people, we can go raise our eyebrows a little bit, you know, slightly raise the eyebrow. That could be, or you can go like this, just point, say, would you please do something good today? And that could be very hurt by that. So I think your intention at that moment was manifesting as perhaps as well as.

[47:30]

your background vow of nonviolence still counts and still there, looming over you, but that moment was shaped in such a way that your body and voice took on a certain tone. And that was the comment of that moment. Even if it's not a conscious intention? I mean, even if... What I'm getting at is I want to stand up and be who I am, but if that's who I am, I'm not so sure I want to stand up and be that. Well, if I take on a posture and my face is shaped in such a way that it looks like it's conveying some sense of superiority towards someone.

[48:37]

I'm not saying that I feel at all superior to the person. But in fact, or I should say, maybe I shouldn't say in fact, but I would say, please consider the possibility that although you don't think you feel superior to the person, there's something about the way your face is shaped you feel superior to them. And they feel like you're talking to them as though you're superior to them. And maybe even some other friends of yours are looking at you and they see in the shape of your face something about the way your face is shaped that you look like you think you're in some way a little superior to this person, at least on this one point. And then at times like that, if people can give you that feedback, you might be able to look inside and say, oh yeah, I think I could see a little bit of a sense of I knew better than you or something like that. Or I knew really well and also better than you knew.

[49:46]

And it maybe seems subtle, but if someone's very open to you, that little bit of I know better than you and I actually am a little better than you on this one point Then that could hurt them if they're very open to you, if they're intimate with you. That little bit of like lifting yourself up or thinking of yourself above them a little bit. A little bit of sense of, this is the right way to do it and I know the right way. How can I not do that? How can I... Well, it's those... It's okay to say, how can I not do that? But the more important thing is, how do you do it? How can you find out that you did it, rather than how can you not do it? If you did it, you will eventually not do it. If we see enough times how we do put ourselves above people, if we see that enough times, that will lead to us, our mind not doing that anymore.

[50:55]

And if we stop thinking that we're better than other people, but we tell other people we want feedback, they can tell us, you know, I felt that there's something about the way you said that. I kind of felt like you thought you were better than me. You know, you said that. I just felt that. Just like I said, I mentioned that in one of the recent things somebody said that I spoke in a way they felt was patronizing. Somebody else said that I spoke in such a way that I was slightly dismissive of someone. So this feedback, you look inside and say, can I find that? Because you can be patronizing of someone you love, Like, it's easy to be patronizing children. Doesn't patronize come from patronage or father? So if you're the father or the grandfather of someone, you can think that you know better than them about something.

[52:06]

It's pretty easy to slip into that. And then you can think you're better than them. Even though you love them dearly, you can still think, well, in this regard, I'm better than them. He's cheating at this game. I'm not cheating. And he thinks he's fooling me by changing the rules constantly so he always wins. But I'm, you know, I don't do that with him. You know, I'm not trying to be him. I'm just his slave, you know. And I'm happily doing that. But I'm a little bit better than him. It's a little bit a small, a small kind of transgression of that precept. And if he sees that, it might hurt him. And if a co-worker sees a little bit of that in us, that might hurt them and they might tell us. So then we find out, oh, there it is. But we may not be conscious that we actually think we're superior to someone.

[53:11]

So a teacher supposedly sometimes knows something that the student doesn't know or knows in a different way. The student actually wants to hear from the teacher, but the student would like to hear from the teacher without the teacher thinking that they're better than the student, but that they'd like to see. So how come that this person's different experience or, you know, greater experience in some area come to bear without putting that would be nice. And in the kitchens, there's some situations where you're going to know more than a new person, you know. But every time, every one of those occasions, you could look down on these people for knowing less than you, or not. And if you invite their feedback, they could say, you know, yesterday you pointed out to me something I didn't understand, you know, and I really felt, you really didn't look down on me at all when you told me, but today you pointed it out, and I felt you kind of were looking down on me when you said it.

[54:19]

And you say, okay, and you look inside and you say, oh, I think I see, yeah, there was something in that, that I kind of, I did do that, you know. Well, thank you and I'm sorry, you know. If you do that over and over and over, you get more knowledgeable about it, and then maybe at the same time that they see it, it's not so unconscious. And then after a while you start to see it, maybe even when they don't see it sometimes. And sometimes before you say it. But the more you see it, the more you actually have a chance to not get caught by it. To not get caught by it. So you don't have to not ever have a thought in your mind like, I'm superior to someone. You don't get caught by it anymore. And if you're not caught by it, then you're not going to talk about that. Thank you. Even though you say the same word, That goes over there. But that doesn't go over there.

[55:24]

Don't do that. Stop. You say that, but it's like they feel like, oh, thank you. That's what I came here for, is to get instructions from people about how to work in the kitchen. And you're doing that. Thank you so much for . It's a gift, they feel. But the same gift, if it's sent down You don't mind it coming from on high, just not way down low. Just not from on high to down to the pits. But from on high to another high, this intelligence, this experience like, okay, here it is, it's for you. For you, you know, you can take care of the kitchen too. It's hard to send straight across. It's easier to send up or down. So we have to welcome people to give us feedback. And say, well, actually, you sent that one off a little bit up, which didn't bother me that much, but it was a little bit up towards me, like, oh, master, here, ma'am.

[56:30]

It was a little bit too much up for me. So up doesn't seem to be so bad, but it's still a little off. OK? Oh. Can I just sit here? He's coming up now. So you have plenty of time to come up. I know. The other thing is when, just for example, I think our attachments plays a very big role in our anger, like being attached to the kitchen or the ingawa or something in this particular place where, for example, I know there's some gringo people here. how I was so nuts and crazy over the lawnmower at Gringotts. I would go nuts when I hear the lawnmower start. And I would always constantly, even you, I would always try to cut your grass.

[57:34]

Cut your grass, cut your area. But you never did. You wouldn't let me. I'd only known. I didn't know. So I realized, I finally realized that, thanks to Arlene, after getting into her a couple of times, my attachment to the lawnmower that I would lash out at people wanting to cut grass is constantly, you know, and I see that here, too, to a certain extent, in certain areas where I don't know if they've been growing it too long or just, I think that extent A lot of anger too, you know, you see... Well, you see some people who might be attached to their work areas. Right. Who are getting worked up. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Suzuki Roshi's wife said to me one time, when we take care of something for a long time, we start to think we own it.

[58:39]

So at first you're just like, you know, lawnmower? Okay, I'll take care of it. And after a while you're kind of like, it's my lawnmower. Of course you know it's not, but you act like it's not only your lawnmower, but you act like it's, you know, yeah, it's yours anyway. And so everybody should really be careful because it's yours. And Zen Center is the same thing. If you take care of Zen Center for a while, you think it's yours. At first you're just trying to help out, but after a while it's yours. And what's the danger there? What's the danger? Well, I think... Well, then, if somebody tries to move Zen Center, they should, you know, they should check with you, right? And if they don't, you can get really upset with them. Right? You think it's yours and not theirs. For example, at first you realize that when you first come to Zen Center you think that Zen belongs to everybody.

[59:50]

After a while you think it belongs to smaller and smaller groups of people. Until it belongs to no one. Until it belongs to no one. Actually, you know, Richard Baker even admitted that, that he said, you know, he was referring to another person when he said this, he said, that person and me, we think we own Zen Center. He was aware that that was a problem for that person. But they had been, they'd made such a big contribution, you'd think it's yours, you know. So then... And it pulled apart. It pulled apart. You don't want to come up? I think I can speak loud enough. It's not so much the loudness. It's more like to get your body up here and share your body with people.

[60:52]

You don't want to hear that? You don't have to do it if you don't want to. I was thinking about the conversation you were having with Carol about feedback and how we mirror everything for us and how we may think we're doing one thing and we have our own karmic obstructions that keep us from seeing what we're actually doing. But then I wonder also about the karmic obstructions of the mirrors that we have all around us as well. You know, people may think they hear something in my . It wasn't my intention, and perhaps it really wasn't my intention, and perhaps it wasn't in my tone of voice. Perhaps they heard it there. And I'm just wondering how you practice with all of these slightly distorted mirrors.

[61:59]

But one of the ways that I would do would be that when I get feedback, I don't think that it's the truth what the person is telling me, but it's information that I wouldn't get, that I won't get if I don't invite feedback. If somebody says, Yeah, if someone says, you did a bad thing, I don't think, oh, that means I did a bad thing. It means that right now you think I did a bad thing, and that's interesting for me to know. Or if somebody says, you were unskillful, it doesn't mean I was, but it does mean that they're giving me that feedback. You really hurt me, it doesn't mean I hurt them, but that they think so gives me feedback, information about myself, because I am somewhat related to everything that they're telling me. Otherwise, in some cases, yeah, if I don't invite that, then people are going to not want to give me feedback if I don't invite it.

[63:03]

And some of it I really would like. Even if it's not exactly completely true, still it kind of often reminds me of something which I need help being reminded of. So yeah, I don't think that you have to think that what the person is true or anything, but just that it's feedback. Like if you walk through the forest and there's moisture on the leaves, and you touch the leaves, you get wet. It's not exactly true. It's just that when you interact with the leaf, you get wet. It's just information. But we can actually be in a situation where nobody's touching us, or we don't feel like people are touching us, and they sort of go along with that. It's like we're walking through the forest and nothing happens to us.

[64:04]

The forest doesn't change and we don't change and we start to feel out of touch with what's going on. But it isn't exactly that getting wet is true, it's just that it's a consequence of touching a wet leaf that would get moisture on it, which you can see. So then I guess the practice is not to be attached to the feedback even? Not to be attached to the feedback even, right? But sort of wondering, you know, let it be. And also see, you know, check with the person how you're doing with letting the feedback in. See how they... Even someone can tell you something that you're not necessarily thinking is true, but... Or even, let's first of all say it's not really true, you don't think it's false either, you're not sure it's true, but you do a really good job of receiving it, and they really feel like you listened to them when they told you what they told you.

[65:12]

And in the end you might say, you know, at the end of the conversation, you might say, like, you know, I really wasn't intending that, blah, blah, blah. but they still might feel like you really listen to them. And vice versa, you might feel like it's true, like they tell you something and you feel, that's true, but you don't receive it well, even though you feel it's true. And they don't feel like you receive it well, so then they don't want to give you any more feedback. Because, you know, and then maybe And then maybe they don't give you feedback on the fact that you didn't receive their feedback well, even though you actually agreed with them. Even though you agreed with them, you know, you put them down when they told you something that you actually agreed with, but you still put them down, and you don't even realize it, you just told them, don't give me any more true feedback. That was true, but I don't want any more.

[66:15]

And so they feel like, well... And I've had this experience of giving people and getting slapped for it and feeling like, I don't know if it's worth it to do it again. And then sometimes that person has come to me and said, you know, I really appreciated that and I'm sorry that I slapped you for telling me. But still I might think, I don't know if I want to do it again because they might slap me again. So I think that... The most important thing is not so much that you get the truth back from people, but rather that you start interacting. That's the most important thing. It's not so much the content, but the interaction, because the interaction will lead to this nondiscriminating wisdom. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for coming in. I hope it wasn't too hard. It wasn't too bad. Cheers.

[67:16]

I see in my mind, I have seen for a long time, feeling superior. Superiority. It feels painful. I'm sorry about that. What I also see is that it's coming out of some love. It does come from a love and a devotion for the truth, because I do want to find the truth, and I do all want to find the truth. But there's pain coming out of that. I don't know, I kind of want to put... There must be some attachment in there. And in a way, what I can see is that the truth is manifold, right?

[68:31]

There's tons of understandings. And so to put a discrimination onto our sister understanding is defilement. But on the other side, there is only one truth. So I'm not sure. But I did hear you say that you sometimes think of yourself as superior, and that's painful for you. Are there any practices which we brought up at the diversity meeting that we could practice right now? Are we going to leave space after somebody talks? Was that one of your things? No, no. Leave a little space? Pardon? At the diversity meeting we had the other day, we talked about some practices to do when people speak.

[69:33]

I think one of them was to leave a little space after somebody talks. What was one? Yeah. Another was that person might ask what comes up for other people here, and if they want to ask that, they would ask that. Would you like to ask that? Yeah. Somebody wants to look me. Did you hear anything? And your response over here? I felt touched, particularly in the part where you said you have feelings of superiority and it's painful. It touched me, your sincerity and your authenticity. It's helped me to connect with you. Thank you. It made a difference to me, Cheryl, when you explained about your vision.

[70:35]

A few weeks ago in work recently you said about your vision. I don't know. And that sometimes when you're not wearing your glasses and you don't see people. Oh. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, right. And for me, that was a tremendous gift because sometimes I would pass you on the path and I would have a story about the way you may or may not have looked at me and when you explained that, it was enlightening. Oh. Thank you. Just so I could bake you a cook show hole, you know? I don't know. I want to say I appreciate, you know, when it actually helps me to come forward, you know, when other people come forward. You know, sometimes it's scary to be in a room with a bunch of perfect people just sitting there.

[71:36]

You know, when you come forward, I feel like I'm not alone. And I really appreciate it. I was grateful to hear you express that, and I was also touched by seeing how blushed you got. I got a saloon. I could see the back of your neck at that time. It was really, it looked painful. Thank you. I didn't miss you before. I appreciated your equalization. The expression of a deep desire. The truth. Making that fear. Vulnerability. I appreciate your sincerity. It's not a real puzzle. I don't think we can handle it right now.

[72:39]

You cannot hinder enlightenment if it is wide beyond truth. We can have the spots, but what we need is knowing. I wonder what that too, you know, In the study of the thought of superiority, the most detailed relationship is meeting some you meet something. You meet something mostly strange or something that's different or it feels different. And he talked to us about energy and it is almost uncontrollable how it changes your pace, your thoughts and how you move.

[73:45]

But it is discrimination, so it's like an embodiment of discrimination. And you're meeting something else, which is also, which is different. So there's only discrimination. So it's possible. But it's happening. I... I worked with you in the kitchen. Can you hear her? Could you speak up, please, Maria? Can you come closer to the microphone, I might help? When I came first to City Center, I volunteered in the kitchen with you.

[74:54]

And I could see what Zen practice produces. And I was looking for that. So I kept coming. And that was wonderful. one time I was working and I started kind of humming a song and you just said, no. I was like, that was wonderful. I thought like, I want to travel downstairs and send that to tell me to catch my thoughts. And the part that And I also see you not so perfect, and that's totally fine. I saw you having mistakes, and I saw you having arguments, and I saw you, you know. But what's painful is, and I'm experiencing this here, is when you try to cover that this is happening.

[76:03]

And you are my circle. And we all, I think I experienced it, but I think other people also that work with you. We are one body, and you're one team, and you're our leader, and we want to support you. And you head our way. And when you try to cover what's happening, you're holding yourself, and you're holding yourself. And we all suffer. Can I ask you for feedback? Yeah, text me feedback. Can I ask you one more? Sure. And I was just responding to Nina. Did you have the feeling I was covering? Sure. But I don't know. Yes. So there was a time when clearly you were upset, and you were, you know, here we are, you know, we're boiling, well, boiling practice beer at Kolden.

[77:06]

And I was having a great day, and I was having a great orioki serving, and I thought everything was smooth, and every mistake was just a variation on the dance. What was happening in your world? And that was just more variation for me to enjoy. But when it came, and then the end of our meal, you said that you were happy. I just felt like, oh, why? Why don't you just let yourself be? Just be a fucking bitch. If that's how you're feeling. Because we can receive it. So, can you have curry for the evening? So I hear you saying that you have some time for feeding your...

[78:13]

Acting differently than I'm feeling, is that what you're saying? Yes, and what you're covering is the same, and it's so transparent. And what you're hiding, it takes so much energy that it's just kind of like, it's a lie, and it's so visible, and it's difficult to actually extend one's heart to you, to show you that you're connected and we want to believe in you. Thank you for the feedback. How was it? I just want to check it back a little bit. It's kind of hard to hear somebody think I'm lying. I didn't say it right. I think it's a lot, the extra stuff. Well, right now, I hear your examples, and I think I would really appreciate next time when you feel that I'm doing exactly that.

[79:36]

Do you think you could be feeling invited? Okay. I thought about that. I would help deliberately. I didn't think, and actually you asked me for something else. There was a Shoten opportunity feedback. Annoying. It was you for the opportunity. I did not take it. But what I'm really saying is that All of you is lovable. And what you could do, including the life. Whatever we're doing, whatever this mind is doing, is in the bigger picture. And it is allowed. It's just, you know, rocks the boat quite a bit sometimes. Are there any other practices we discussed?

[80:42]

I have a new one I'd like to add, which is that on several occasions people have said, we, or they've said, all the monks, or they've said, everyone here is a monk. I have a sense they're maybe trying to bring about a sense of inclusion, but actually I feel that it distances me more from what Because in the examples, they haven't come to me and checked that out. And they may have checked it out with everyone else, but somehow I was left out. But there's something about the general weak statements that I have a practice of trying to be aware of when I use them. And I'd like to encourage us all There you go. I'd like to continue doing that and I'd like to let people know that I'm willing to encourage other people to practice that.

[82:21]

Eileen? Could you come up here? You can stay or whatever you like. I feel with the conversation that Maria just had with Joe. I don't like that the word fucking bitch was used and that people thought it was funny. We've been on the dough on Rio for quite some time. And we worked together. We got to know each other very well. And for her to come up here and expose herself, it was very brave.

[83:28]

And I just didn't appreciate how it was taken. And I think we can all be a little kinder and not use those words. And I agree with Simon that we all should speak for ourselves and not anybody else. You mean you agree with Simon that you should speak for yourself? Yes, that I should speak for myself, and I'm doing it right now, but I am not using the word we. So I would suggest that everybody's... No, no, no, no, no. Speak for yourself. Okay, so I am only speaking for myself, and I appreciate Shomo coming up here. I appreciate her forthrightness. And what do you want to do now? I'm going to go back to my seat. What do you want to do? What are you encouraging yourself to do? That I will speak for myself. I just do. Do you want to ask people if they have any response to what you said?

[84:36]

Sure. Donna, I would look like you to look at Maria. You know, she's fine with such a look. You know, I didn't think it was like this. I didn't think it was like this without you. I think I made the... I'm also not one to... Well, I didn't know the time myself. Could you speak more loudly? The people over there can't hear you. So I said... What I said was that I appreciated, I didn't mean that it wasn't, it wasn't select.

[85:37]

I thought that would be. And I also, I appreciate that there's awareness around language that's being brought forth. And I'm also not part of the community, so it's not, it's not a way of being part of my regular life. And thank you for expressing yourself immediately. Well, I use profanity myself a lot, but being at Tassajara this long, we're all trying. I am trying so hard to... I tried so hard. But a lot of players are falling off of it. And so little things can affect me stronger. Like if you said those words, if I was back in San Francisco, I'd just rub it off. But now it has a bigger impact. I think we're clear that I wasn't saying that she is that.

[86:44]

I'd just like to say how much I appreciate you having the courage. Speak up, please, Lisa. Speak up, Lisa. I'd like to say to Eileen just how I thank you for having the courage and for caring enough about what we're doing here to actually get up and say something that I was But I was just feeling like I just, I guess I was checking out in a way of just not feeling like I really want to be all that involved in a lot of things that are happening around here. And so I thank you. I had sort of a point of order. People were getting feedback for what they said. Is it legal or acceptable to include all previous encounters with that person?

[87:59]

I mean, I thought the point of it was that, like, what the person said at that time, feedback for that, is that, or is it? I don't think we clarified that. Going back to the first. What struck me is some of the feedback seemed to be far-reaching, and maybe, if it was me up there, I thought maybe unjust, given, you know, I don't think anyone wants to be on trial for all previous... I would ask you, would you like to hear from people? And you could say, I would like to hear from people just about what I said two seconds ago. I don't want to hear from people prior to the last ten minutes. I don't want to hear them. And then people could, maybe they'd go along with that, but they're only going to give you a response to it. But you might say, I welcome responses to what I just said plus anything else in my entire history.

[89:07]

So we ask the person, right? So the person can, I think, say what they're up to. Do you want to ask people? No, I was just, that was my... Yeah. So I think that's part of what we can learn is maybe we can say, I'd like a little bit of feedback on something and not a lot of feedback on... And yes, would you start, please? Would you start, please? I feel... As a perpetrator of two of the... that brought to the group, one of which was laughing when Maria said those words to Shoho, and I felt I was laughing, not at the word, but at the heart of what she was saying, but nonetheless, I did laugh. Therefore, I was one of the laughers. And I also spoke from the... I talked about... Sorry if that caused any sense of exclusion or carelessness to anyone. I actually didn't know there was anybody here who didn't have some habit energies to work with.

[90:12]

So it's kind of like a defensive position, but I didn't really think of it as anything but human in that situation. If that was an error of judgment or, you know, language use, I will be more careful in my use to speak of my own self and my own journey about my struggles with that. Do you want? I do. I think... There's a hand behind you. And Melissa, too. I guess I just want to clarify about the speaking for the people thing. It's not so much, you know, we're all baby buddy somethings, so much as we're prepared for you to yell at us if need be. I think that maybe not everybody is prepared for that. Did I yell at you? No, I'm sorry. I'm saying it. That's another example. Say, if you want to yell at us, we're all prepared for that.

[91:15]

You know, just be yourself. Did you say we? We prepared for that. It's now. A different example, okay. The day you're abusing me. Oh, like if I turn to you around and say, we all want you to yell at us. Like in the conversation between Styria and Choho. Yeah. Maria, to paraphrase, said, just be yourself and we're totally prepared. Right, right, right, right. And maybe somebody is not prepared for that. All right, okay. Cut him. I'm so going to... I apologize to you. I can't remember. It's on tape. I think I said something about we all sit in here like we all in light. We understand. Like we're all perfect. I apologize for that. I apologize to you. I'm Jewish. I think I kind of wanted to respond to what was going on before, actually.

[92:25]

And I'm kind of having a strong emotional response around what evolved in that I'm feeling like what happened between Maria and Shilpo could potentially have been very helpful for all of us and for Shilpo. A kind of direct, maybe not so easy, but suggestion for her to express herself fully. And that's what I was hearing from Maria. And I also laughed, and I laughed because of that kind of liberating energy, that fucking bitch. I'm also a woman. I'm also sensitive. But because of that, I appreciate that full, thorough introduction and that she took a risk. I also just want to express my appreciation for what Maria said, even if it didn't look too nice in the end. Tando? Well, kind of on that note,

[93:27]

I felt really, for me anyways, laughter. I kind of felt uncomfortable when I heard that word, and I laughed, and I was almost like shocked. Like, did she really say that? She did say that. And, uh... And I was kind of disturbed by the directness of the interaction. It seemed like advice-giving. And kind of... It was definitely just an uncomfortable road that someone approached me that way. I would feel very uncomfortable. And... And... Yeah, basically I just wanted to do that. I think laughter also arises with identification sometimes.

[94:32]

So, another kind of laughter. Was there another as Cecilio's team? Yeah, I mean, finally from... In the action reviews in the end, I also found it was not a good thing, but I was actually very much appreciating the comments of Maria at the beginning, because I often feel like that, and I even feel it's a cultural thing, the using of we always, and then to say that everything is great. It's just, I got used to it. If I did the worst thing in the service or whatever, I mean, the service leader always says, oh, I think we did a very nice job. I mean, if I hear it in English, it's fine. I don't have a reaction. If I would hear it in German, I would say, I mean, what's that? It feels very strange. So I think I'm coming. I'm from a more confrontative culture where this saying is very much usual or nice and I would, that's my opinion. I could really appreciate it if somebody says something like me and if I feel, oh, he's trying to help me and anyway I don't have a problem with being a bitch.

[95:39]

I first thought, oh, that is very funny, and it actually addresses a point which I feel often here at Santander. People are so nice, and everything is so great. So it was for me, refreshing to hear something like that, and that's why I love it. I just want to say, I laughed. The reason I laughed is because it was just the thought of, I think for myself, like, I was really in a bad state, bad state, and I was given feedback, you know, that I was kind of, from a couple people, that I was maybe a bit more aggressive or just a little more language with my body than I normally am.

[96:44]

And so, like, first I wanted to be so permissive with saying, you know, just video the fucking bitches, like, it was just funny in that context of, wow, what a difference that would have been if I had been given that permission. I don't think it would have been such a good idea. So, you know, I don't agree with Maria, actually, at all. I know for me it would not have been so helpful for myself or for other people. I think sometimes it's best to breathe and step back, but I did find the words really shocking too. And I think that's the other reason I left, because I've just sort of been nervous after. And I also found part of it really out of context here, not coming from a teacher.

[97:48]

Just something off of what Yoki was saying, sort of related to our conversation earlier, you know action has consequences so it's like if if Shoho manifests the fucking bitchness it's like that has consequences and so whether it was correct advice or appropriate advice I don't know you know maybe if she's willing to deal with the consequences of being that way but I think you know the question of do we want to manifest good or do we want to manifest non-discrimination in which it seems like good appears or arises? I don't know. I think these are interesting questions. And I think we have to be careful about what we think being ourselves

[98:59]

Jane had something, and I'd like to say something before I sit down. I'm in charge of this. Okay. There's not quite no room left. Yes? I was talking to one guy. She told me when you heard those words, were you hurt? Yeah. Was it a little spook? No. But I heard the word, and I heard the laughter, and I found myself laughing. And I was just thinking, it's always response, right? I heard the teaching that's always response. I don't know what I'm thinking. I was thinking about a laughing. I don't even know what, because we didn't quite recognize the word. I just laughed. And I was wondering if I should have been restrained about my laughter or not.

[100:07]

Buddha would be restrained about the laughter at that moment. Did you feel there was a laughing at that time? But I didn't feel like I could do it. So if I would have been a teacher, I probably would have done it. What's the other question? Does she feel that's the loving advice? Yeah, I need your answer. My answer, if I think it's the loving advice? Yeah, I don't think it really is. Does she feel the love from that? But I really thought that she cared about me. I really do. But, yeah. And then for Maria, we're talking about, it felt like something was left out, kind of going back to that first one. Are you angry with Shova? Are you asking? Yeah. About the conflict.

[101:11]

We're not expressing anger. I wouldn't say that that's clear. I would say I think I expressed it very clearly that when she holds back, hurt is happening. declaration well it's when you're perceiving or you're thinking that's my experience but it's not actually i feel like you're putting a lot of fun well i'm not saying i would say if it's a yes or no yeah that was a component that is that was a component the speaking but my dad was speaking but i just felt it in the energy so yeah For me, I'm asking these questions because I feel, and I'm including myself in that, it's often hard in the Zen community, because we're silent a lot, but to communicate very sensitive feelings.

[102:25]

Sometimes lack the true emotion, sometimes for me. And so you're, I feel held back and thinking about maybe what's going on with me, you know, directly with everyone, you know, that I encounter. And I feel like when it comes to, I get nervous when you start making too many rules around how to say things, you know, and what words, but you end up using them anyway. And for me, I try to at least come from my heart and from my truth as much as I can to express how I'm feeling and the intention behind my words, you know, as opposed to just the words and especially generic words like we and I, because we use I a lot and that's actually kind of against our practice in some way.

[103:33]

There's no I, but we use it because The language we have is kind of distorted. English language is distorted in a lot of ways. And dual, dualistic. We have a dualistic language. And so it's hard to get away from really expressing our true minds. It's hard for me to get away from expressing. And so, um, I did, I was one of the people who did not laugh. I was, um, at the work the other day again. Um, and I think it's because I'm kind of a rude, foolish person. Don't cuss while I'm in my spiritual environment. That hurts, doesn't it? But it came from around the room, so I think that that was how it happened.

[104:35]

I talked about the event, Catherine, confessing about the weed, because somehow it feels to dilute your attention on what you were expressing. I don't know. I don't know if there's another way to be expressive or to have its full body, you know, to have a full language, full attention. I don't know how to do that. But I just kind of, even experiencing in Maria at Choco Talking, I think they were talking very nicely, somebody mentioned it nicely to me, and it kind of was reminding me, well, what energy is coming up through that nice talk? You know, that's why I asked them about the energy, and it reminded me way back when we were talking to Carol about the energy, and her talking, you know, she was saying one thing, but the energy was another.

[105:45]

So I think that that's kind of some of the incongruencies I feel sometimes for myself. and the committee not looking at how to communicate without having passion. Thank you. I think Gerson said everything else that I would have wanted to say. I can sit down. Okay. And Jane and John, John and Jane? What's your second? John? John? I'm very nervous to come up, but I wanted to take the opportunity to ask for help, because I've had a question for a long time, and I asked it maybe the other night. When I've had moments of deep of myself, like Shoho just did, in some kind of conflict situation, like in a staff meeting or something, where it may begin to look like that it's me against someone else and we're having a problem.

[106:54]

And other people around are just sort of going, oh, yeah, they're having a problem. And I'm going to make some observations. I'm going to have comments about that. And I start to feel like I'm the one with the problem, and I'm the bad person. I'm the imperfect person. And I find it's not helpful. But I want to be performing. Like when I said to you the other day, at one point a few years ago, when Reb was giving a talk in the Zendo, and he was talking about Dongshan and insentient beings, expounding the Dharma and sages and sentient beings. And he looked at me and he said, Are you getting the training? And I said, no, I'm getting confused. And he said, it's about time you admit that. And everybody in the Zendo went, oh, because I felt like in the moment, I felt like, yes, Rab, that's right. Thank you. I feel really supported that I'm getting some attention, you know, and he's watching my training.

[108:00]

But when everybody else went, ooh, I felt like it was, ha-ha, you know, Jones being put in her place. And I wanted to say that about Shoho coming forward and Maria coming forward and Eileen coming forward, that I'm coming up here because I don't want to be like this. But I also think that I might be just squirming. You don't want to be like what? Like, oh, I can be safe now. I can be the one that passes judgment on other people who come forward. But I also feel like, you know, we... We are being trained, I think, to take responsibility for our actions and to know that there's consequences to our actions. It's not that we're bad people, but there may be some very awkward moments in our lives, and our job might be just to stand it, to bear it. So I'm asking you, or I'm asking anybody else, kind of squirming to come up here and sort of want to pull the spotlight off of this one particular person and kind of implicate myself as well in my nothingness, or if that's just me squirming or if it's a feeling of wanting to share the burden.

[109:22]

Well, do you want it to be a gesture of sharing the burden? I do. Well, you're welcome to share it. It might have been squirming, I don't know, but what do you think now? I think it may be squirming, but right now I don't think it's squirming because I was really nervous to come up here. But I am interested. No, I'm actually not interested. I don't want to hear anything unless anybody wants to say something one-on-one later, or if there's something really important that someone who hasn't spoken yet this practice period is feeling comfortable with. Do you want a response or not? Well, I feel like, from where I come from, sometimes I'd like to be sort of drawn out. So you would like a response? If there's someone who... I don't want to talk in particular about it, but... Is there anybody here who hasn't said anything, maybe might feel shy about saying something, but would really like to say something?

[110:29]

I'd like to possibly trace your point, Bill, to something Timo was saying, something Graham was saying, and just a general tenor of the conversation for you in this. I'm going to try and say aye. Excuse me, but wasn't the question about too bad to you? I just want to see if this point addresses what Joanne was saying, not necessarily addressing Joanne directly, which seemed like a hassle. Wait a moment. well it's a question of like being comfortable and not being comfortable yes okay the issue that's come up for me is people have felt uncomfortable and expressed discomfort in the last 14 minutes or so and what's turning out in my mind is i'm prepared to feel uncomfortable at times as part of this training which is what you're talking about so i'm kind of looking at that idea of are we trying to make up Is part of this making ourselves feel comfortable at all times, or are we prepared to let the sun just come up at some point?

[111:33]

Mm-hmm. So that's dressing would do it much more well. I think I'll sit back down. It's okay. Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thank you for coming up. You're welcome. And, uh... I have a response to that, but I'll let me hear from Jay, okay? I'm going to pass. Pass. Some kinds of discomfort are part of doing something beneficial. But, for example, exercise sometimes is a little uncomfortable. Like going in cold water, for example. Swimming in cold water is kind of uncomfortable when you first go in, but you might feel like it's very good for your health. And... So I think certain kinds of discomfort are door-opening type of discomfort. So we have to be careful and ask for each other's help.

[112:34]

We'll offer you help to try to figure out what kind of discomfort goes with beneficial action. Coming up in front of people and expressing ourselves might be a little uncomfortable if you're not used to it. But I think it can oftentimes be very helpful. And I feel like this morning we've made some effort to have a variety of people expressing themselves and trying to take care of each other. I said to diversity me that I would try to practice helping us become skillful at expressing ourselves in groups and dealing with diversity, and this was an exercise in that, following up on that little talk I gave at the beginning.

[113:37]

So I had the courage and kindness which I saw expressed here. And Everett, I didn't ask if you spoke, if you would like to hear from people about what you said. Would you? But it doesn't happen now, but people want to talk to me later. Would anyone like to say something in response to what Everett said? I don't remember what he said, but he spoke my mind at the time. Oh, mirror, right, exactly, yeah. Feedback. Exactly my question. What do you do with feedback? How do you go about with feedback? Well, this has been a response to that, but it's actually about me. Okay. So, is that all right? So I, some of you know I studied communication and I have an answer that would take several minutes to relate.

[114:56]

And when you put that out, I thought, I have one way of doing that, but I wanted to respect perform here, which does not include my teaching for two minutes. And at the same time, it's, you know, my heart really sped up at that point. I really wanted to make a contribution. I've met a national energy about this topic. And so this is just my, I'm wanting to share this now with the group because I start to feel separate. I don't know how to deal with the way I want to contribute. the things I want to contribute, and the constraints of the form and system that I'm in here.

[115:58]

So I don't do that much. I'm also working on dropping my attachment contributing in this particular way, but that's also a practice in play here. So it's a very complex thing for me. And it also includes by ear speaking and speaking. Needs, real needs. Sorry. I see. ...response, which might be to you. However, I also see Eno gesturing, gesturing. That's to me. Can I ask a first response to you? Might as well.

[117:01]

About this. Are you asking, like, would we like to hear that piece? I would like to say, I would very much like to hear it. And I'd like to say that every time Jane has shared with me any information from this, it has really had a significant impact on me and how I interact with other people. So I personally would love to hear what you've learned about it. I wasn't after her, and I'm very, you know, I was very sad. It was up to me to decide to do that, and it's not my choice, right? Right. You're telling us that, and we heard that, and I think Everett And Nancy to you and ask you something if they want to.

[118:03]

And also, we could have asked the group if they wanted to hear, but Eno wants us to stop. And he wants us to stop so you can have a little break before service. Can I just say one thing? I don't know. What do you say, Eno? Yeah, 15 seconds. I did what I really want, which is express how I'm feeling in the moment, and that was what I wanted to do rather than the other aspects. That's what I thought you said. It was clear to me. And so thank you very much for...

[118:38]

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