Recently someone said to me, in the midst of the turbulence of words, how can there be response? And I'm not sure, but I think I said to him, the word appropriate has, I think, has the root, po, which is probably a French word.

[01:04]

A-P-R-O-P-O-S. Right? Huh? Yeah. Apropos. And apropos etymologically means to the point. So I said to him, well, before we get into how there could be an appropriate response in the midst of the swirl and turbulence of words. First thing is, what's the point? And I said, you get to say what the point is. I think that this person who's talking to me, for him the point is benefiting living beings on this planet.

[02:10]

the greatest benefit maybe, I don't know if he said that, but the greatest benefit for beings on this planet, that's the point. So now that I know what the point is, now that he tells me, okay, now I can talk about what's to that point, what kind of a response in the midst of the swirling world of what kind of response would be to the point of benefit. and I mentioned to him, he may have remembered, I don't know, but I mentioned that in the 14th case of the Book of Serenity, which is a collection of stories of attempt to practice with words

[03:24]

to practice with words, but also to practice with words in the world where words exist, where words are functioning. Words live, are functioning in the realm of karmic consciousness. And living beings have to, human beings anyway, have to deal with a consciousness where there's words, and then So the 18th case, the 18th story in this book of stories of people who are trying to deal with words in such a way that this appropriate response can come forth. The 18th case is about... Zen monk coming to see a Zen teacher and asking the teacher, does a dog have Buddha nature?

[04:28]

That's the case. But the introduction to the case is what I wanted to mention to this person. Because in the introduction it says, a highly cultivated person is still turned about in the stream of words. So again, his question is, in the stream of words, or in the turn of karmic consciousness, how can there be an appropriate response? And the introduction to this story is that even a highly cultivated person is turned about in this stream of words. And I mentioned to him that I think when I first read about that, I thought, well, maybe, you know, you get to a point where you're not turned about. Maybe highly cultivated, you still get turned about.

[05:36]

But maybe if you get even more cultivated, you're not turned about. Now I don't think so. Now I think highly cultivated people still live, still enter the realm where there's a stream of words and they get turned about. Also, uncultivated people get turned about in the stream of words. All karmic consciousnesses are getting turned about in the stream of words. What's the cultivation? The cultivation... This is words, right? The cultivation is to cultivate the turning. So the turning... is finally not disorienting. So you turn without getting disoriented from the point.

[06:45]

You're getting spun around like everybody else but you are not getting distracted in the spinning. The words are slapping you left and right, up and down, praise and blame. Oh, you're a good Zen student. You are a below average Zen student. You are a great teacher. You are a terrible teacher. These eyes in the mind. And maybe other people say, yes, I did say that. And you spin with the words. But by cultivating the spinning, by paying attention to the spinning, you can always remember the point. and never get distracted. And also in the spinning, which you can say some more words about it and spin it some more, but also in the spinning, there's no way in the spinning, if you want to not get disoriented, no way to hold on to it.

[08:00]

So the words actually don't let you sit still, they spin you. If you try to hold on to the point, then you'll become disoriented. So we have to learn how to spin without holding on. So again, the name of this place is... The appropriate response comes from in the middle of the world of karmic consciousness. It comes from that place from the practice in that place with a mind which does not abide in that place. With a mind that can turn and spin and leap and not abide in any of that and therefore not lose contact with the point. That non-abiding way, that non-abiding mind

[09:05]

in the middle of the karmic word-spinning mind, from that non-abiding place, the appropriate response comes, which is to the point of benefiting all beings, comes from, not from outside karmic consciousness, into karmic consciousness. Well, actually, it does. It comes from outside of karmic consciousness, into karmic consciousness, And then when it gets in karmic consciousness, it doesn't try to get out of karmic consciousness. It tries to be there without abiding in it. So it's not that we, we who are living, the me who is in karmic consciousness, the I that's in karmic consciousness is trying to figure out what the appropriate response is. It's not like that.

[10:07]

If there's a me who's trying to figure out what the appropriate response is, that's words. That me trying to figure out what's the appropriate response, in the middle of that, there's a turning. and from the upright turning in the middle of trying to figure out, it's the upright turning in the middle, it's the non-abiding that the appropriate response comes from. It doesn't come from me trying to figure out what the appropriate response is. Even if I'm trying to figure it out, even if you're trying to figure it out, even if we're trying to figure it out, That's the world of words where we're practicing. We're trying to practice reading in the world of trying to figure out what is helpful. If there is the story of trying to find out what's helpful, we accept that story, we listen to that story, we listen to it, and we listen to it

[11:22]

without abiding in it. And from that not abiding and listening to the story comes the appropriate response. Which is the response which is to the point of benefiting beings. earlier this morning, during the first period of sitting, there was an I that was me who was sitting. And in that place where there was an I, there was the thought about what is the appropriate response.

[12:29]

Like, is this sitting an appropriate response? Do I wish this sitting to be an appropriate response? I don't say, yes, this sitting is an appropriate response. But I, in consciousness, am thinking, I wish this sitting to be an appropriate response. But for the sitting to be an appropriate response, or for an appropriate response to arise in the sitting, there must be a lack of a basis for anything to grasp. And from the lack of a basis for anything to grasp the appropriate response emerges. So I quoted also during that sitting, I quoted an ancient teacher who said to her monks, what was

[13:56]

the teaching or what are the teachings of the whole lifetime? What are the teachings of a whole lifetime? That's an abbreviation for what are the teachings of a whole lifetime of a Buddha? What are the teachings of a whole lifetime? Cultivated, wise and compassionate being. And he answers the question in an appropriate response. The Buddha's lifetime The life of Buddha is the life which is all sentient beings, which is living in the middle of all living beings.

[15:17]

That's the Buddha's life. What's the teaching? It's an appropriate response. That's what the ancient teacher says. Case 14, Blue Cliff Record. Then later someone might say, ask the question, might ask the question, what is the teaching activity of the Buddha's whole lifetime? And the answer might be sitting meditation. And then might ask the question again. Or the teacher might ask the question again. And the teacher might answer the question today, what is the teaching activity of the Buddha's whole lifetime? The teacher might say, the perfection of wisdom.

[16:18]

And before the teacher says that, the teacher might think, the perfection of wisdom. That, the perfection of wisdom is the teaching of the Buddha's whole lifetime. which we also call that sitting meditation. We also call that response. We also call that the mind of no abode. So sitting here, what is the teaching activity? the perfection of wisdom. What is the perfection of wisdom? The perfection of wisdom is the lack of a basis in anything to abide. The perfection of wisdom is the way we cannot grasp anything.

[17:34]

And so to sit here cultivating... The way we cannot grasp anything is to sit here and cultivating a mind which doesn't grasp, which has no way to abide. And this is cultivating the mind from which the Buddha's appropriate response arises. This is living in the turning of words. This is spinning with the world and not getting disoriented. And the way to not get disoriented as the words spin is to not abide

[18:39]

So to teach sitting meditation, to teach zazen, is to tell stories, to think of stories and to tell stories, and while thinking of stories, to not abide in them. And then not abiding in them, realize their freshness and their dynamism and their ungraspability, and then tell them. freshly. So today I tell you again the story of the Zen teacher saying what is the activity, what is the teaching of a whole lifetime and appropriate response. I tell the story again and again and again and each time I wish to tell it from a place ...writing in the story so I can tell it again and again. And if you hear it again and again, maybe the first time you thought it was fairly interesting, or maybe the first time you didn't think it was interesting, but then you heard it again and you thought it was, and then you heard...

[19:59]

I heard that before, it's not interesting. Then you heard it again, you say, it's even less interesting. And then you heard it again, you said, no, it's not interesting at all. Then you heard it again, you say, wow, it's more interesting than ever. If you listen to it long enough, it being any story, but over enough times, the mind of no abode will be realized and the story will be so interesting that you would not abide in it Again, if I'm sitting and I think, oh, oh yeah, right.

[21:06]

I'm sitting and I think, oh, what's my job? Well, as a disciple of Buddha, I guess my job is an appropriate response. And where does the appropriate response of the Buddhists come from? The perfection of wisdom. Where's the perfection of wisdom? My job is the practice of perfection of wisdom. It's my job. Where's my job? Where's the perfection of wisdom? That's my job. Is it here? Is it there? I don't know if it's here, but I think I have to find it here because I live here.

[22:13]

It's not that it's here, but I'm here. It's not. I'm here, and if I'm not stuck here, if I'm not stuck on here, then that's it. And if I get stuck and that's it, that's not it. My job is to cultivate this perfection of wisdom, to practice the perfection of wisdom. Because from there, an appropriate response comes. Someone said to me, even more recently, something like, isn't an appropriate response? And I said, yeah. But if you don't practice, you don't realize it.

[23:23]

And if you don't practice and don't realize it, that's an appropriate response. Isn't everything you do benefiting all beings already? Yes. Buddhas know that. But if you don't practice, you don't know that, you don't realize that, and you not realizing it, if I'm not practicing, that's an appropriate response. And the response is like a cry of distress. or even a cry of distress and then blaming somebody else for it. I don't blame myself for it. I can cry out in pain when I am not practicing, but I don't have to then, in addition to that, blame myself for it.

[24:36]

I don't have to blame myself for it. I can just accept responsibility. Can you talk about what you mean by benefit? Can you say it? Benefit? What do you mean by benefit? I mean peace. I mean fearlessness. I mean generosity. I mean patience. I mean being careful of every word. Huh? Why do I say that? I don't know why. But I say it. But you want me to tell a story about why I say it? I say it because somebody comes and says to me, isn't everything we do the appropriate response? And then I say, yes.

[25:39]

What? Appropriate depends on what your point is. And if your point is to benefit all beings, are you just saying any old thing you do, including not being patient, not being careful, is benefiting all beings also? I'm saying that everything you're doing, everything you do actually, is appropriate to benefiting all beings. If you're impatient, okay, You're impatient for reasons. And the way you're impatient, the way those reasons support you, you're impatient. And the way that doesn't work for you, and the way it offers opportunities to others to be kind to you, all that is appropriate to your situation. Well, I can see how it's appropriate. I just don't see how that's benefiting all beings. That you're giving all beings an opportunity to see the way it's appropriate.

[26:45]

The way it's appropriate. You're showing beings how when there's not involvement in the practice, it comes out as suffering. And that's a lesson, but it benefits beings to see it. However, you are not enjoying it maybe at that moment. And then later you might actually say, how wonderful that when I got distracted it worked the way it did and many people learned from that. That's a wonderful answer. Thank you. Hello. And to abide in that, okay, is not appropriate to realizing the appropriate response. However, if you do abide in it, there still will be an appropriate response, but the appropriate response in that case will be the appropriate response of a non-Buddha.

[27:52]

But it will still be appropriate. Yes, appropriate and benefit are the same. To realize the benefit. Yes. The way is already perfect and all-pervading. There's no place it doesn't reach. But if you don't practice, you don't realize it. It isn't that we're going to make the way happen. It's already going on. But if we don't practice, we're going to miss it. And if we miss it... Still there's going to be an appropriate response, but the appropriate response is not what most of us wish for. It's going to be war. It's going to be hatred. It's going to be, I'm better than you. I think I'm better than you. It's going to be, I don't think you're a precious living being.

[29:03]

It's going to be stuff like that. That's an appropriate response, not to perfect wisdom. That doesn't come from perfect wisdom. That comes from missing a beat in the practice of perfect wisdom. The Buddha is on the beam, the light beam and the wooden beam. The Buddha is balanced in the midst of the turning world. And so all these responses are coming from perfect wisdom, So they're educating beings about how to enter perfect wisdom. They're opening beings to perfect wisdom. However, the Buddha sees that people who have not yet opened to perfect wisdom, they make the appropriate response. When we're closed to perfect wisdom, we will make the appropriate response. The way the Dharma works is if you don't practice it, you suffer. Realize it and you're stressed, etc.

[30:04]

And the etc., of course, is sometimes horrible. But that's an appropriate response to not practicing and not practicing and not practicing and not practicing. It gets worse and worse the more you don't practice. It gets worse the more we don't practice. And that's actually somebody showing that. It's terrible, it's horrible, but people are demonstrating that and showing that's not the way anybody really wants to go. And they're so upset they could hardly... They don't want to be upset. One time, one of Dung Shan's students said to him, Look, teacher, they're pointing at some birds being cruel to each other. He said, What about that? And Dung Shan said, That's for your benefit. Their lack of realization of peace is for you.

[31:07]

And you should help them make the bodhisattva vow and align themselves with you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah, you're welcome. Yes? I wanted to ask you about that turbulence around the woman. Yeah. What helped with that turbulence is to remember the purpose. Yeah. That's not, I think, what you said. I didn't say it, but you said it. That's good enough. You can say it, tell me. Part of what helps you find the place of not abiding midst of the turbulence of words, part of what helps you is the words of your vow. What I did say, which I think you're maybe mixing up with what you said, is that it's not to be mixed up, is that you do not abide in the words of the vow.

[32:17]

But the vow, you're trying to not get disoriented from. That's the point. So you remember the vow. Remember, remember, remember without abiding what you're remembering. So you remember the story of the Buddha. You remember the story of your vow. You remember that you want a refuge for all beings who are without a refuge. You remember that and then you pay attention to, can I remember this without clinging to it? And you say, yeah. And that's the way I want to remember it. I want to remember it without holding on to it. Oops, that time I remembered it and I held on to it. And then I got thrown off. I remember my great vow, held on to it, and then I said, I don't want this vow anymore. Not for this person anyway. If you hold on to the vow, it can turn into a club. You hit yourself or other people with it. You hold on to the vow,

[33:19]

...practicing this vow. Boom. Rather than, I have this wonderful vow and I... Oh, I should say, I'm committed to this wonderful vow, but I don't have it. And if you don't have it either, we're on the same turf. And when you relate to people that way, they... ...in this vow and you say, yeah, you're welcome to do so. Can I have it? Well, you can, but there's going to be an appropriate response to that. It doesn't mean there's going to be suffering. So we... There will be suffering if we cling to our great... So bodhisattvas have great vows and they cultivate a mind which doesn't abide in them, which takes care of them, which takes care of them. Again, like taking care of a little girl or a little boy. You take care of them, but you don't abide in them. Other people, they know... And people are teaching them various clinging skills, and you care for them, and you show the ability to care for without clinging, without abiding.

[34:33]

And then we realize, then we can realize that we're all in the appropriate response. And we see many people do not understand that. And it's very painful when they don't. And I am devoted to practice this way until all beings open to this perfect wisdom. And I need to keep remembering that that's what I need to keep remembering. I vow to practice the perfection of wisdom until all beings enter the perfection of wisdom. and those words, and I want to say those words and watch to see if I'm clinging and getting... Can I spin? Can I turn? Can I flip without getting disoriented? It's a skill we're cultivating. And if we have a moment of success, great! And here's the next opportunity.

[35:36]

Yeah? a very painful emotion. Somebody said something to you that really hurt you. She oppressed something. Yes. If you have a painful emotion. Painful. She hurt me. She disrespected me. Right. So the appropriate response will inevitably be, the response will inevitably be suffering. No, no. She insulted me. I'm her good friend. I've been devoted to her and she's insulting me. She's hurting me. If I have those words, if I don't abide in them, then that's the Buddhist activity. And then the appropriate response will come. If I abide in them, A different kind of appropriate response will come.

[36:43]

Something like a cry of distress. So what I'm saying is that the suffering itself could be appropriate to remind you. Yeah, but first it's appropriate to clinging. To clinging. Then after it arises, After the suffering arises, the suffering is appropriate, can be appropriate to remind you that the suffering is coming because of the clinging. Right. Yeah. But first of all, it comes from clinging. Once it comes, say, this suffering is coming from clinging. From clinging. Yeah. And there can be that spin. There can be a spin again. Right. There's no eternal damnation to suffering. Right. And then you can be free, maybe. You can definitely be free, is the message. You can definitely be free if you study and then don't abide in the suffering. Because you realize this suffering is coming from clinging.

[37:46]

And if you watch that, you say, okay, yeah, there's clinging. I don't know where the clinging is anymore. I don't know where the suffering is anymore. Yeah. So that's, again, suffering. arising in the world. The suffering we're talking about that we can be free of is arising in the turning world of words. The lack of peace is occurring in the mind of words. And if we can be upright and flexible and non-abiding in that world, Buddha's response comes. If we're clinging in that world of suffering, Appropriate responses keep coming, but they're not the response of the Buddhists. They're the response of people who are not cultivated enough. They're spinning, but they're also clinging. We learn by that, and then we have a practice, which we mentioned earlier, of confessing and repenting, that we got, we stuck.

[38:50]

And that's how it worked. And we have to grow up enough to start spotting it and feeling embarrassed because we have these vows. Yes? I see this process all happening. Yeah. There's one response, and I'm clinging, and it's spinning and it's all going on. Sometimes I can't come up with anything to say because I'm... You know, one of the Buddha's names is Shakyamuni. One of the Buddha's is called Shakyamuni, which means the muni of the Shakyamuni clan. And muni means the silent one. Sometimes they say the sage of the Shakyamuni clan. So some people translate... sage, but it also means silent one. So being silent is often an appropriate response. Or saying something which is almost like silence.

[39:54]

Like, thank you very much. Or I'm sorry. Or, oh, this is my life. So what turned me to Zen was a story of someone who in the world of words, was getting insulted and put down and disrespected and not appreciated. His response was basically, oh, is this happening? And then it was a story of him being praised to the highest for the way he responded and him saying, oh, this is my life. And when I saw it, I thought, I want to learn that. That's what I came to Zen, is to learn how how to not abide in the words I have about myself or about you and how not to abide in words that you have about me. But to listen to them and to feel them. And if you slap me, to feel the slap.

[40:57]

And if you gently touch me, to feel it, but not to turn around by it. Most people get turned around by soft caresses, gentle caresses, and harsh caresses. Most people are turned. But how can we be turned, and in the turning, find no abiding, so that we come back to the teaching in every case? So they say, oh, here. Here's the Buddhist teaching. May you have the Buddhist teaching. May you be at peace. I'm so happy to be here to remember that wish for you. Like, again, it's a story about Gandhi, right? He's doing his morning prayers, I think, and somebody comes up to him and shoots him, and he continues his morning prayers. You know, may all beings, or whatever it was, you know, may all beings be blessed, you know.

[42:01]

May all beings be blessed. If you're in that mode, and again, to stay in that mode, to be in that mode moment after moment, you've got to not cling to it. Even if people don't shoot you, if you cling to it, you get disoriented. But if they do shoot you and you're good at spinning and being upright, you have this chance of doing this miraculous thing of being open and grateful to everything. including people who are not open and grateful and the suffering they feel when they're not open. Yes? There was a baby in the middle. Yeah. So in the middle was that the person who was insulted was given a baby to care for and he with the aid of a wetner. And then, after some time, the people came back and said, give us the baby back, and he gave the baby back.

[43:07]

And they were... They blamed him to saying he was an illegitimate father, right? They blamed him to saying he was an illegitimate father, that he was a... a disgraced monk, an irresponsible, uncaring, uncompassionate monk. to put his own gratification ahead of the welfare of someone else. They blamed him for that. They accused him of that. And then they said, after that insult, they asked also for the baby, and he did his best. And then they realized that they were wrong, and they asked for the baby back, and he gave the baby back. So he had those two responses, and in between those two responses, he cared for a baby. We have lots of hands now. I don't know. Tie. But these four. You need four to work it out. That's nice.

[44:11]

Why don't you have a meeting and figure out your order? You don't want to do that? Okay. Is that okay with you guys if he goes? Sometimes boys first. The monk's appropriate response was silence or was saying maybe so. Yeah. And it's also possible, right, that his appropriate response could have been blame the situation to them and tell them more about it and do something else. Yeah, it could have been. Yeah. Sometimes I feel... I feel intimidated by that story because I'm not sure I can stand there and take everything that life dishes out and say, maybe so. Actually, he didn't say maybe so, but maybe so as a criticism. He said, is this so? Basically, is this so? Or it seems to be so. And you're not sure you'll be able to do that no matter what. And that's how I felt too.

[45:13]

As a matter of fact, I thought, I'm not able to do that, but I want to learn that. So if you're not able to do that now, or at least sometimes you're not able to do it now, sometimes you maybe kind of like do not that badly, but sometimes you kind of feel like this is too much. Well, okay, but I aspire to be able to someday receive what's being given to me as Buddhist wisdom. or in Buddha's wisdom. I aspire to that. And sometimes now I don't. But then we say we have a practice by confessing and repenting our lack of ability to do that that will melt away the root of what's interfering with us. This amazing response. And which is very similar to the other response that you get when you're praised. So you can explain when people insult you and you can explain when people praise you.

[46:15]

Those could be good. Those could be the appropriate response. The story that got me was the way of explaining in the insult and the way of explaining in the... The symmetry. the symmetry of it, that basically it's not so much I'm trying to avoid one and get the other, or vice versa, I'm trying to have basically a response to everything, which is the appropriate response, which will make a young man want to learn that. And in the meantime, the young man who wants to learn it says, I don't yet know how to do it, but it seems like one could learn that. it's not impossible to maybe of protecting when insulted and grasping when praised. It seemed like you could learn that. So not only did I want to be that way, but it seemed within my human potential to learn that, that human being could do it, maybe I could do it.

[47:19]

I was left with that wish, and sometime later I realized, well, maybe there's a training program for that. And so, yeah, so then I signed up for the training program. But when I signed up, I had not yet got to that place. And I really have the time now, but once in a while, if I'm that way, it's kind of like, oh, this is wonderful, that once in a while. And the times when it happens, it's like I don't do it, you know? And yet it's still wonderful that it happened in my neighborhood. One time I was in a class studying the Zen stories, and one of the students said, I want to tell you that at dinner today before the class, I told some people at dinner table that I thought you were a crappy teacher. And when he said that, I just had a joyful laugh. And I was so happy. I just felt so good hearing him say that.

[48:23]

Not, I wasn't so, exactly. I don't know what it was, but I was happy. Not that he said it, but I was really happy that it didn't bother me, you know, for people to talk to me that way. Uplift me, but it did uplift me that I wasn't bothered and that I wasn't defensive. I felt great about that. But I also didn't feel like, well, I did that. It just happened. Where'd that come from? How wonderful. I guess the practice is working a little bit. And when I had a heart attack, I was pretty happy with the way I dealt with it. And it wasn't a very bad heart attack. And his saying was, crappy teacher. That wasn't that bad. But in those two little examples, I was very happy and I felt like, well, maybe the practice is starting to function a little bit here. That I'm not so concerned about my reputation and I'm not so concerned about whether I die now. And I was so happy. when I had the heart attack that I was just filled with gratitude when I was in the emergency room.

[49:29]

I was filled with gratitude to have all my friends around me, you know. And I went to have a test which had a risk factor. And I was so gratified just, you know, grateful. And I was so grateful that I was grateful rather than... I didn't want to spend a day in an emergency room. I didn't want to have a heart attack. This is like not fitting with my schedule. And it didn't, you know, this was my schedule. My schedule was to come in the hospital. That's my schedule. I didn't know beforehand it was going to be. I was very happy. And when the other things that are going to come, if I can be like that and be grateful, and if I'm not, okay, then I confess. What he did for me just then, I didn't see as a gift. I admit it. I didn't really feel like, thank you, Charlie, for that insult.

[50:31]

I'm sorry. I really am sorry. That's what I want to really be able to say, thank you to whatever you give me I missed a beat. And I also, you heard me tell the story. It was actually, it'll be October 1st, I think, yeah. On October 1st, 13 years ago, I fell to the cement in Houston and hit my greater trochanter. or the cement hit my greater trochanter. I don't know who ate who. But there was a strong meeting between cement and my greater trochanter, of my right greater trochanter. It was a powerful meeting, and I didn't say thank you. But then after I didn't say, the next moment I said, relax. And then beings came from all directions to benefit me.

[51:33]

But I missed a beat. And I said, I'm sorry. And I said, no, no, no. This is not something to argue with. And then I thought, well, maybe let's see if I can move my leg. And I couldn't. So I missed a beat, but then I went back to the practice. And I've missed some other beats. In the last 13 years, I've missed some other beats and I noticed some of them and I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry about my vow to basically welcome everything which is basically open to perfect wisdom. I'm not sorry about that. And if I miss a beat, I vow, I wish that I will notice it, I will confess it, and I see how I feel, and if I'm not sorry, I vow that I'm not sorry.

[52:42]

And then maybe later, oh, no, I'm sorry. Sometimes I might notice a shortcoming, but not be sorry. And then, oh, now I see it. So it's not by rote. It's like that I really, this is where I'm at. A beat was not missed. There was joy when insulted. How wonderful. There was joy when attacked. Not joy that I'm attacked, but joy even though I'm attacked. We can be happy when we're attacked by illness, old age. Etc. Because these things will happen for our benefit so that we can meet them with non-abiding mind and that they appropriate. Yes.

[53:43]

Answered. Yes. You didn't have your hand up. Okay. Yes. I have two images that I'm thinking about from the story, and one image is of the practices of dervishes. Exactly, exactly. And the other image is of the There's this mouse trap that's got glue. It's got this glue thing for it. It's unbelievably strong glue that if you just touch it... Super glue. Like super glue. And so the mouse can't get free or whatever's trying to be caught. And there's a way in which, you know, I've tried to turn it really hard. You do not get stuck with your eyeballs on objects around us. You have to sort of somehow relax your eyes enough that you can not get dizzy.

[54:49]

And you have to find some kind of relationship with the plumb. But if you try to grab that, you get nauseous or you fall all the way down. But when I think about the turning of words and even talking about the point, the appropriate point, that's kind of sticky right there. Even saying, oh, good, I'm centered now. I'm doing it. That can be kind of sticky, too. There are these layers of subtlety to this where ultimately even being in your body can be kind of sticky. It goes through these layers. But I feel sometimes with words stuck. One of the sticky places that I find is that I have this idea, it feels naive to me now, but it's sort of like if I can just explain, if I can just find the right words to you.

[56:01]

we will be in harmony, or you will understand me. And I try to see, sometimes I work with patients, and I'll say stuff to them, and the next time I see them, I ask them, what did they hear me say? And it's completely different than what I tended to say. And so... I no longer feel confident in words to bring understanding and say, what does he do? But a lot of times it's kind of a crapshoot of whether someone's really good at it. through words. I don't think of that. What you're saying is a little bit like what Charlie was saying, to maybe explain. And that's okay. But... Look at that monk that explained. He didn't explain. He didn't explain so that when he didn't explain a second time...

[57:05]

If he had explained the first time, I would not be here, probably. Never apologize. Well, it's not never apologize. You could say there was an apology. There could be an apology there. Like, I apologize that I'm playing this role in your life, of being this disgraceful person in your life. I apologize. But it also includes him just saying, This is my life, you know, this seems to be happening. He didn't apologize. He didn't apologize, but he did apologize. He did apologize because, you know, you could have an apology there. He accepted the responsibility of the child. He didn't say, this is not my responsibility. He accepted the child. That's not my baby, not my little girl. He didn't say that, no.

[58:09]

He really couldn't say that because he didn't. He said basically, yes. He said basically, thank you. This is my life and I'm not trying to trade it in for another one. But the thing is that he said the same thing at the end. It wasn't like, okay, this is my life and this is really my life. It's the same in both cases. There's no explanation. There's no interpretation. You can make interpretations. It's all right. But if you abide in them, that's not where the Buddha's response is coming from. The Buddha makes explanations but doesn't abide in them. But to warm up to not abiding, you might just stop making explanations a little bit. Try that. When someone insults you before you explain how that's not really appropriate, just say thank you. And then after you say thank you for their insult, they might say, is there anything you'd like to explain?

[59:14]

Say, well, as a matter of fact, I do have some explanations, yeah. But they may not say that to you until many years later. In the meantime, you've done something really good. You practice generosity. You open to this as an opportunity for the practice, which is the most important thing. Explaining things to people can come from that place. That place is more important than any explanation. Because that place, innumerable explanations can come out of there. But if they come from not that place, they're not the best, they're not the Buddha's explanations. Buddha's explanations come from a place of not holding on to the explanations that come. So, there's an explanation about how you're friends, and the Buddha did sometimes, like, there's a story of this person who wanted to kill the Buddha, and the Buddha explained to him that, the Buddha says, I'm your friend.

[60:15]

He explained. But that explanation didn't Abiding and being his friend. It's just an explanation that came out of non-abiding. And the guy didn't buy it. And the Buddha was fine with that. And then the Buddha gave another explanation. And then that guy bought that one. The other explanation was just a little miracle the Buddha performed. But this story I'm telling you about is a miracle. It's a miracle of people insult you and you don't explain. And it's not like you're holding back. It's you're giving them an appropriate response. And then they praise you, and another miracle happens. You give them an appropriate response. I'm talking about a faith in this place you're talking about, this turning place of faith in living at the place where you've turned and a faith of finding a way to get dizzy and disoriented and get so dizzy that you can't remember the Bodhisattva vow anymore.

[61:26]

All you know is you want to throw up. And you might even want to throw up on somebody because you think they're spinning you, you know? Rather than your life is spinning, you think, this person's making me sick, so I'm going to vomit on them. Rather than, I'm spinning, I'm starting to get sick, but I'm getting sick because I'm holding someplace. And I'm sorry I'm getting sick, but it's not your fault, it's not my fault. It's the clinging's fault. But it's appropriate to get sick when you cling. So thank you, nausea, for pointing out to me that I'm clinging. I sometimes speak of the human realm that way. There's a heavenly realm. there's a so-called animal realm, which is characterized by fear. Heavenly realms characterize this. Then there's the hungry ghost realm, which is characterized by insatiable desire.

[62:27]

And then there's the infernal realm, which is characterized by torture. The human realm, I sometimes say, is characterized by nausea. We're suffering, but it's more like being seasick rather than like torment. Yes? I resonate with what you're saying. And from where I come from, I would say a lot of the spinning and whirling is trauma-related. And we all have trauma. Some of us have more trauma than others, but we all have developmental trauma. And one of the strategies that we use to deal with developmental trauma is a word, dissociation, distraction. And I can see that to deal with trauma, which shows up as suffering for most of us, that to not be attached and to be with as a witness one part of the healing.

[63:42]

On the other side, there's also feeling, the overwhelming feelings that we could not feel when we were little, because our nervous systems were not appropriate. So how far is feeling part of this ultimately being non-attached, let's say, in a healthy way. Because we seem to have to come back over and over again and practice over and over again, but still we find ourselves identified, attached. So how far is feeling, and feeling on the physical level, how far is that part of it? It's intimately part of it. Intimately part of it. But again, when feelings appear in consciousness, feelings live in other places besides consciousness, in our body, in our cognitive process, there are feelings.

[64:55]

But when they appear in consciousness, they're mixed up with words. That's what I'm saying. But when feelings appear, they don't just... they don't usually just touch us, they spin us. So they're not just feelings, but they also have a consequence. The place where we apply the teachings to the feelings is also a very difficult place to apply the teachings to the feelings. We cannot really apply the teachings to the feelings in the unconscious cognitive process area. However, if we can hear the teachings in the realm where there's feelings and we're done, there's a way of bringing the teachings to the feelings in the realm of words, which will transform them on other levels of our body and cognitive process. So it is part of it, feelings. But again, the feelings aren't just there floating unworded.

[65:58]

They're mixed with words. But that's what we learn to deal with them. So it's very much part of it. And so we have all these practices to help us try to be intimate and careful and generous with the feelings and the words. John, did you hear me? Henry? Yes. I wanted to say I once had one of those glue traps set for a rat. And instead, I caught a rattlesnake and a big one. And it was still alive. And so then I went about extracting the rattlesnake from the glue trap. And actually, it reminds me of this discussion. And so I'm hearing your story. And I'm also remembering stories of turning boards that we have. And I'm wondering if we can make a distinction when you talk about spinning in this vortex of karma.

[66:59]

And then make a distinction between spinning and turning. Because when you talk about turning, you're talking about something different than just being caught in the spin. In fact, when you're caught up in the spin, you're stuck. And the issue is, how can you be responsible when you're caught up in the spin? You're not able to respond. And when we, let's say, hear a turning word, we're unstuck. We're able to respond. And I wonder if we can make that distinction here, because I get a little confused when I hear spinning to turning. What's the difference between spinning? In what case are spinning and turning the same? In what cases are they different? The appropriate, the intentionality, what's appropriate is in there as well. It's 12.30.

[68:07]

Maybe I could just introduce this story and we can go into detail this afternoon. So here's the story. It's a story about a Zen teacher. And whenever he gave a talk, the story goes, to the monks, in the back of the room was an old man who would sit there for the talks. And I guess he came to many talks. And one day... the old man came up to the teacher Bajang and said, long time ago, I used to be the head monk of this temple. Like you're not the head monk, I was the head monk. And someone asked me, does a highly cultivated person, remember I talked about the highly cultivated person, does a highly cultivated person fall into cause and effect or not? Does the highly cultivated person fall into the spinning of words or not?

[69:13]

And I said, does not. I said, the highly cultivated person is not in the stream, is not turned about in the stream of words. I said that. As a result, I was born 500 times as a fox. And now I'm coming to ask you this question. Can you offer a turning to help me now find the correct response to the situation of verbal cause and effect?" And Bai Zhang said, asked me. And the old man said to Bai Zhang, does a high fall into cause and effect? Fall into the stream of words? or not, and Bai Zhang said, does not obscure cause and effect, or does not ignore cause and effect.

[70:18]

So Bai Zhang's response was, highly cultivated person lives in his turning word was turning from doesn't fall into that situation to doesn't say and he didn't say does fall into it he didn't say does fall into it he doesn't fall into it he used to say doesn't and when he said doesn't he had to calm down 500 lifetimes and then once he was calmed he was ready for the turning word which was, we don't say the cultivated person falls into it, we don't say they don't fall into it. However, when you study it, you become free of it. So then the old man becomes free of the consequences of what? Of saying not fall into. Not fall into is holding on to something. If you say, I'm also holding on to something, but it's a little bit better in a way, because at least you're admitting I'm holding on.

[71:26]

But he said, I did not fall into it. To a highly cultivated person, I don't say he falls into. I don't say he doesn't fall into. I say, when he's there, he's spinning too. But he's not ignoring the turning. And then the old man is liberated. And you can say, well, then he didn't fall into cause and effect. No, he's liberated from falling into and not falling into. But he was ready. And sometimes the teacher offers a turning word, but the student's not ready yet. From abiding to non-abiding. But non-abiding doesn't mean you get out of cause and effect. It means you don't ignore it. Now, you don't ignore it now. If you're highly cultivated, you consistently do not ignore. But when we're less than highly cultivated, we miss a few beats. And then we like fall into or don't fall into.

[72:30]

I'm not, I am. I'm not, I am. We get into that stuff. Highly cultivated person is not into I am and I'm not. I wonder what's going on here. I wonder who I am. I wonder what this is. I wonder what this is. I wonder who you are. I would say maybe a highly cultivated person can continue to consistently practice with cause and effect. But really, right now, they're not consistently. They're just doing it now. But a highly cultivated person will be able to more and more consistently practice with cause and effect with less slipping into, I'm avoiding it or I'm stuck in it.

[73:34]

because really we're not stuck and really we're not avoiding it. Avoiding means, you know, the Buddhist teaching, avoid being caught in unskillful actions. Avoiding means to be paying attention to the Dharma all the time, to studying cause and effect. And then the swirl of wrong used to practice And the world, the swirl, the word of right, the swirling world of right can be used to practice. But right and wrong, if we're not upright and observing cause and effect, we miss the opportunity. Well, I was happy at the beginning of this talk. I was happy in the middle. And I'm happy at the end. I hope you enjoyed the Dharma. May our intention of inquiry extend to every place where the truth will inherit it all.

[74:44]

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