And he's from Daihonzan Shoujiji. And the other is, I believe, last I heard he was 49 years old. I think he became a priest later in life, not as a child. And I don't know what temple he's from, but... we could maybe have a meeting with them. If it's appropriate for them to come to priest meetings because they might have trouble following the English. And some of the esoteric discussions we have might be hard for them. But I think we could maybe have a meeting with them, a priest meeting where we can welcome them and have tea or something. I just think it's interesting that they want to come for two months. Yeah. You mean for two months rather than for ten minutes? One of them, I believe, said he's interested to see how Buddhism is practiced in a country which is primarily Christian, he thinks.

[01:09]

Which I think, certainly there's a great Christian influence in this country. Some of the Christians are actually trying to take over the government, it looks like. So that's part of what they stated as their motivation. Is it okay if people would like to see their applications? Do you think for the people to see their applications, do you feel okay about that? If Carolyn is interested, for example? You can just verbally say that out loud. Yeah. Yeah. The older gentleman wanted to, he's actually interested in working for the Soto shooting, and he would like to... Do you remember which one, older or younger? The older one. And he worked for 10 years, 10 years or longer in Singapore, I believe, in a printed circuit board factory. I think he was... Do we know how good their English is?

[02:10]

I'm guessing the one in Singapore, his English is good. He said it's rusty, but he just speaks English. And the other one, we don't know. We'll find out. And... I would also like to invite them, if they would like to, to join our translation work, if they would like to. Yuki and I have been translating some material we have on all of our Japanese ancestors. So now we have something on all of our Japanese ancestors and before long you'll be able to see what we've realized. Now I realize we have a basic sculpture, a basic skeleton, you might say, of all the Japanese ancestors. And the first few like at the top, Dogen, is very well filled out.

[03:12]

So it's like almost a pretty good picture of Dogen, although there's a few things I'd like to see, like I'd like to actually see him walk and so on. Maybe they'll find some DNA in his tevi and they'll be able to reconstruct the Dogen for us. But anyway, starting with Dogen and then for the first four or five generations we have lots of material, but then things get very thin. The information, we had to go to the temples and so on. But now we have something on all of them. But there is more information which we, if we find out, we can start filling in more about them. There's other information besides what we found. We have the basics now. And next translation project I'd like to start is to translate Teishos on Zenkai Sho. Zenkai Sho, in English I translated with Kaz, Essence of Zen Precepts or Summary of Zen Precepts.

[04:17]

And that text is a text based on what's called Kyoju Kaimon, which is Dogen's short teachings on the 16 Bodhisattva precepts. And then Based on that short commentary by Dogen on the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, two of his contemporary disciples, Kyogo and Sene, commented on Dogen's Kyoju Kaimon. And then at some point, Banjin Doton found that text and he made an introduction and did notes. And that's become the Zenkai show. I asked Kadagiri Roshi one time if there's any texts, any texts, Zen texts on Bodhisattva precepts, because I had never seen any.

[05:25]

And he said, yeah, there is one. He says, and if you read it, it might not even sound like the precepts, but there is one called Zenkaisho. And then sometime later I got the text and went to Kaz and we translated it. And then Kaz said, when we finished, you should give some talks. Give a contemporary presentation on what we've been studying. So then I gave talks in 1994 at Tassajara. And they became the... They, together with Zenkai Sho, became the basis of being upright. And when I... Somehow, I don't know, I told Taizen Maezumi Roshi that I was doing this translation work with Kaz, and he was very enthusiastic about it, thought it was really great. And it is, actually, that we have now in English texts of traditional Soto Zen commentary on the precepts of Soto Zen.

[06:34]

And then he was very happy about it, and he wanted me to give him a copy, so I gave him a copy, and he was very happy with the translation. And then he, just before he died, he gave me a four-volume set on the Zenkai show in Japanese. And then recently, when I was doing some studies, I saw that there was a commentary, or teishos, by Kishizawa Iyan on Zenkai Sho. So I was quite interested, and I asked Charlie Picorni to try to find the text. And he checked Berkeley and Harvard and Yale and Madison and so on, couldn't find it. And I was talking to him, and I said, thanks for doing the research, Charlie. And I said, you know, I think I have the book. And I said, matter of fact, I think they're right there.

[07:38]

And I climbed up and took them down and I have the books. Those were the books that Maezumi gave me. So I have this much, you know, of Kishizawa Iyan's commentaries on Zenkai Sho. And so I was very happy, and I said, and I said, Charlie, this afternoon at one o'clock, I'm going to start translating it. And Yuki came and we started. And Yuki said that it's not so difficult for her to read, looks like so far. So I probably won't finish before I die, but I am going to translate that with the help of native speakers of Nihongo. You've had a long life and been here before you die. So I just felt how auspicious that I was interested in the precepts, asked Kadagiri Roshi, he told me about the text.

[08:41]

I didn't ask Suzuki Roshi about it. And Suzuki Roshi never said, you know, Tenjin San, you should study Zenkaisho or, you know, he never, we weren't at that level of sophistication during his life. If he'd lived five, ten more years, he might have said, you should study that. And he wouldn't have studied, you know, who knows what he would have wanted to study. But it turns out that his teacher, his second teacher, Kisao Iyan, put a lot of effort into Zen Kaisho also. And I told Jiryu about that, and he was also very happy, and he said, and he has two other texts on Zen Kaisho, which are Oka Sotan's commentary on Zen Kaisho and Nishihara Bokusan's commentary on Zen Kaisho. And those books are about one-tenth the size of Kishizawa Iyan's.

[09:46]

So actually I think it would be better to start with Nishihara Bokusan who's also Kishisawa's teacher, and Oka Sotan, who's also Suzuki Roshi's teacher's teacher. Not dharma succession, but... So it just turns out that this lineage, not just this lineage, but there's a lot of energy gone on in teachers related to us in the later part of the lineage to go to that text which was written right after Dogen died. So that's what I'd like to start translating is one of those texts and maybe the Japanese priest can help us. I think I'll start with Nishihara Bokusan. And Nishihara Bokusan is also maybe not so difficult. We'll see. So that's a project which I will be working on this fall, I hope, with Yuki and our visiting priests.

[10:50]

And I think Jiryu wants to come too. And actually, if others of you want to be there too, you're welcome. We could have a big translation meeting, maybe once a week, during, you know, at midnight or something. Could we just say welcome to Yuki? We already did last week. Did you come last week? Yeah. It wasn't her. It was another Yuki that's gone now. This is a new Yuki. Welcome, the new Yuki. And also the new Kathy. Welcome, Kathy. That's a new Kathy. Yeah, welcome. That's why I didn't have her. Okay. So... will you be sharing that as you go along I mean we don't need to wait until you finish the whole I mean I'd like it will I be sharing it I will I mean it will be part of my life so just like yesterday morning I shared with people the Monday night study groups because we're studying do no evil on Monday night

[12:02]

Right? And this wonderful way that Dogen treats that, you know, I was, I'm affected by and then that was part of what I was talking about yesterday morning that do no evil, do all good. The good and the evil refers to wholesome and unwholesome karma. But the way Dogen puts it is when you study in this way, in other words, this way of being the way of the mind of no abode, when you study in this way, you realize that evil is not at all separate from do not do or not doing. That's the prajnaparamita way to put it. It's not so much When you study in this way, you won't do evil. You'll understand that not doing is not different from evil.

[13:05]

That that's what evil really is, is not doing. That the essence of evil is that we don't do it. So anyway, those kinds of things. So I naturally would do that. But if you'd like to know that I'm doing it, ask me if I'm doing it. The written material. I don't think so. I'd rather not have stuff that's not necessarily yet correct floating around. But you can come to the meetings and take your own notes and have those notes. Oh, and that's another sad story. Sort of sad. But not for you. No. I was going to publish the translation after finishing it, but then I realized that Baimjen Doton says at the beginning of the text, do not publish this.

[14:21]

Only give it to people who have the transmission of the precepts. So I've been giving it to people who have done what's called Denkai. So for those of you who have not of Denkai, you have to wait for a while to have your copy. Or tomorrow, if you have Denkai tomorrow. Of course, again, it won't be a new Sonya. I kind of would like the text to be, in a way, I'd like people to have it, but in a way, actually, if I think about the text, I think that new people to Zen, if they read the text, it could cause a lot of problems. And a lot of people could say, this is why, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because it's not, it says, you know, and it says also in the study of the three things, which the esoteric study of the three documents in Soto Zen Transmission, written also by Banjan Dothani, says,

[15:28]

You know, that the Bodhisattva precepts are not about restraining evil and doing good. They're about the Buddha mind. That's what they're about. And then people think, oh, I guess I can do evil then. They're not about that. So the translation is available to those people. It's not a general thing. However, in Japan, of course, you can just buy it. in the bookstore. However, it's in Japanese. But the English translation, I'm sorry, but I feel like I shouldn't be passing it out against Banjin's instructions. If Sri Sri Krishna is alive, I could say, what do you think? And he might say, oh, it's okay, show it to people. But he might say, if I said, Banjin said not to pass it out to the Kurish, he might say, maybe so. Yeah. I asked you about this essence of evil.

[16:31]

Yeah. I've been thinking about it this week. Is the pivotal word there the essence of evils that we don't do it? Maybe the essence is that it's empty or has no self? Yeah, it's like... He says, if you study in this way, you realize that evil is not doing. It's like, if you study in this way, you'll realize that evil is empty. Empty. Of evil. Of evil, yeah. You know, you can't actually... It cannot be established. Yeah. Okay. Somehow I think I just... I'm just thinking that... It's like... And when we were reading that part, Shokachi said, this is like the Heart Sutra. Yeah. The way Dogen deals with that teaching... It's like the Heart Sutra. So it's like also like I said yesterday, when you realize the mind of Zazen, the mind of no abode, those who realize that, they all teach, they all say, refrain from evil, do all good.

[17:34]

Those who have entered the place where there's no words, when they talk, they always say, refrain from evil, do all good. But the place that that teaching is coming from is not about doing and not doing good and evil. It's a place of emptiness and there's no good and no evil there. And from the place where there's no good and no evil, from the realization of that comes the teaching, comes the language, do not commit evil, do all good. That's the Dogen Soto Zen understanding of where these precepts are coming from. But still, it's very difficult to really have that understanding rather than just hear the words. But that's the Mahayana version of those precepts.

[18:42]

No, den-kai is, den is transmission, and kai is precepts. So, in Soto Zen, You know, the mainstream Soto Zen involves Denkai and then what's called Denbo or Denpo, Denho, transmission of precepts. And the transmission of precepts is related to transmission, excuse me, transmission of Dharma is related to transmission of precepts because transmission of precepts usually perceives it for priests. And part of the way of transmitting Dharma is to transmit the way of transmitting precepts. So, Denkai is transmission of precepts. Dembo is transmission of the Dharma. And with one person I did transmission of Dharma and not precepts. But I also, in the translation work that Yuki and I have been doing, we saw that Keizan Zenji had a number of Denkai disciples.

[20:04]

He had a number of disciples who he transmitted the precepts to and did not transmit Dharma. So that's a precedent set by Keizan. I did not hear in other cases that people did that, but again, Taizan and Maezumi Roshi did do it. He had Denkai disciples. I remember that he did Denkai, transmission of precepts, with Daido Lori. and stopped there for a while. I don't know how long it was. And then, sometime later, maybe not too long, he did Denbo with Daidolori Roshi. When they're transmitted to you, you can give them. But there's a difference between yu-kai,

[21:10]

and denkai. Those with denkai can perform the ceremony of jukai. Jukai is receiving? Hm? Ju is to receive. The word, the word, the Japanese, the Chinese word for giving and the Chinese word for receiving are very similar. They both pronounce ju. The ceremony is actually, the character they use is actually a ceremony for bestowing or giving. There's a character which means to receive. It's pronounced ju. And if you put a hand on the left side of it, it's also still pronounced ju, but it means to give. So the ceremony actually uses the character, I believe, for giving the precepts. And kyo ju kaimon, the view of kyo ju kaimon, is the bestowing. kyo, ju, kai, mon. Kyo is teaching, ju is bestowing, kai is precepts, and mon is essay or verses.

[22:21]

So kyo, ju, kai, mon means essay on teaching and giving the precepts. So those who have precept transmission can do precept bestowal. And Kyoju Kaimon is usually recited in Japanese monasteries at the time of the Ryaku Fusatsu or Dai Fusatsu. Ryaku Fusatsu means abbreviated Fusatsu. And dai-fusats means a big fusats, and fusats is a Japanese way of saying upasata, which means confession and repentance, you know, which means precept, recitation and so on, confession and repentance ceremony. about the word sojo.

[23:25]

They used that at the... That was kind of a theme word on the Gassan Joseki. Sojo? Sojo. And I think we were told it means transmitting. I think that's what it is. The terms that I've been using so far are just sort of like the most common terms. When you get into it, you know, Asian priests have a lot of other words for these things that they'll use sometimes that are not so familiar. So there could be other words for transmitting. Also, sometimes Yuki and I found other words for transmitting and dharma succession than the more common ones. Thank you. You're welcome. Also, I would kind of like to ask our abbess and our tanto and ino and other practice committee members to give a little report on a discussion we've been having about, you know, how to have everybody be sitting in a zendo

[24:52]

the first two periods in the morning. We haven't made an announcement yet, right, to the community. So I wonder if you could give a little report about our discussion about how to encourage, you know, how to fukon zazengi this place, how to encourage the practice of zazen in the community. Would you want to tell the priests who aren't on the practice committee about our discussions? If you'd like to, please. Well, I think it's a lot of this logistical problem. Like, how do we support the community to have the time available to not be in a conflict around other things that people have to do in order to be in this end of together? So we kind of have gone through the various things that pull people out. and ,, practice discussion, work, and all of that, and sort of looking around at these different puzzle parts and how can we satisfy the needs of the community at the same time, provide the possibility of ,, which may be our core wish as a community.

[26:13]

So we've been thinking a lot about how describe or review our initial intention in having practice leadership seems to come about at a time when there were fewer teachers, and at the time when also after Higoshi died, Higoshi Baker was gone, and REB would need to be the test part, leading practice periods. And back then, particularly at city center, there were a lot of people, and there wasn't a resident teacher. So it seemed like having practice leadership was a way of helping to stay in touch with people, make sure they felt like they were connected. So at Green College, it may be unique to Green College, but we have a lot of structures in place now to connect people. There's cruise, right, city center, a lot of the folks are maybe non-residents, so we put borders, RGT people. There are central folks, employees. So there's a much different population. We have almost everyone who's on a crew.

[27:15]

And so in a way, there's a lot of intimacy with each person who's on a crew. And the crew head and senior staff has a lot of knowledge about how people are doing. There's also WPA1, WPA2. There's a guest student manager. So we're kind of looking at all the different groups of people. The intention is to make sure people don't fall through the cracks. There may not be so many big cracks that people actually might be in an intimate relationship with practice or senior leadership just as the way we structured them. So that maybe the intention of having all of these practice leaders making sure that people are connected It's not as essential as it was when it started. So we're thinking maybe that we can remove going out to see either for dose zone or practice leaders. And also, practice leaders mostly have an average of two or three people. If there were practice leaders that people had to sneak with, maybe the burden isn't so great that the practice leaders couldn't find time during the month to meet with folks outside of Swansea Island.

[28:22]

So that's kind of the way we're thinking. I think the biggest problem is going to be for Rev and Linda and myself and Jeremy, who see lots more people regularly, and how to work that out. And I'm already talking about how I could maybe schedule, like, 4 to 5 o'clock is the time, or 6 o'clock is the time that I would do doksan, or one-day sitting sessions, that kind of thing, and see if there's going to be sufficient slots. Because I see about 10 to 12 people a week. So I'm kind of feeling as though it might be possible we could experiment with doing that at some point. We're going to try it for a week during the beginning of the practice period, having all of this stick together. In the morning? In the morning. It's just the morning. And if that works, and if that feels good, and we like it, then we'll maybe try to extend it. And then we'll see if it becomes a new pattern that we actually really prefer over having people go out in such large numbers.

[29:23]

That's what we... Yeah, that was very clear to me, but I've heard it before. Did everybody follow it? So the idea is that the practice discussions will take place in other times than... Has there been some thought of a time that that would happen, or just at the convenience of the particular practice leader? Well, we thought evening zazen, afternoon zazen and evening zazen. Also, maybe that would be those times. And then during study, maybe, for the practice period people. but also other times during the day when during people's breaks the practice leaders might be able to meet people during their breaks. But we're just trying to make a time when there's almost no leaving the zendo to do interviews. And then other zendo times maybe there could be some leaving.

[30:26]

But where there's a few periods two periods in the morning or one period in the morning when the whole communities, except for the kitchen, or I don't know who, almost everybody's there anyway. That's what we're trying to create, and it seems like we might be able to do it. What about the expected regularity, which practice leaders do? You know, we're saying this every couple of weeks, and I want people to see Phil all the time, and we're not rotating to that quickly enough, but it would need to be less frequent. Well, I guess we thought that... Another thing is that... The practice leaders were not necessarily the person's teacher. And so it's not that they couldn't be, but it seems like it would be.

[31:31]

The practice leaders will now become, according to this, they will become people that are available to talk to people about their practice. But not everybody would necessarily have a practice leader. And because we don't need the practice leaders to keep track of people anymore in this new system. We didn't used to have these meetings. If you didn't talk to the teacher, you didn't necessarily have a crew that you're on with a senior person. So I would say that practice leaders could meet with people pretty much as they wish. If they want to do it once a month, twice a month. If they want to do it even once a week, it might be okay. that they met once a week? If some practice leaders and their students wanted to meet once a week, I think that might be okay. For most people, I think it might be okay. Some people, there's a few people who you may have known who would see all the practice leaders every week and they could never go in the zendo.

[32:36]

One person, like every period he left to go talk to somebody, couldn't stand to be in the zendo. But for most people, I think we're not going to have too much of this going on if the practice meetings are not in the morning and they're not during work. Again, if they're during work, some people might be tempted to do a lot of practice instruction instead of work. They didn't like their work assignment. But they're not going to do that. So we have no sense of... There's no... there's no necessity, according to this, for people to have practice leaders. However, if someone was at Green Gulch for a year or two and hadn't found a teacher, somebody that they're really working with, we'd say, you know, you should be working on this. But if they were working on it and couldn't find a teacher, but the way they're working on it would be that they would occasionally talk to somebody

[33:38]

So that would still be the issue at a certain point. People should find a teacher at Zen Center or they should go to some... Because we want people to have that kind of friendship in their life. And that, I'll just put in parentheses right now, the topic of this practice period is friendship. So part of what I'll be talking to people about is this really, you could say... I don't know what the word is. it's a very tender and important topic and I think people have a lot of feelings about it. And how to talk about it in such a way that people don't feel like they are required to have a teacher. But at the same time listen to the comments by ancestors saying that having a teacher is essential. So it's essential, but you shouldn't force yourself into it. It's essential, and you should be careful about how you set it up. Somehow to balance between don't rush into it, relationship with a teacher, be careful, and at the same time realize that, you know, Dogen and so on are saying, if you want to practice zazen, you have to do it with a teacher.

[34:50]

You cannot practice Zazen without a teacher. At the same time, finding the relationship that will support your Zazen practice is quite an accomplishment. To create that teacher-student container in which you can practice Zazen is not so easy sometimes. Usually it's not so easy. Or it's easy for a while and then it's hard. Like I said to Suzuki Rishi, why don't I have any problem with you? And he said, we will. But then he died. That's a problem. That's my problem. I did not say to Richard Baker, why don't I have a problem with you? One of Suzuki Roshi's students told me that he realized many years later, he didn't exactly say these words, but after Suzuki Roshi died, that his problem with Suzuki Roshi was that he had left him with Dick Baker. I just wanted to note that this sounds really good to me, but that it means that the crew leaders are going to have a more kind of a special responsibility to monitor and communicate

[36:10]

Yes, that's the idea. So that's the big new factor in keeping touch with students is that crew leaders are aware of everybody in their practice. And if they have a problem, they bring it to the practice community or they bring it to the abbess or the tanto. And if the abbess or tanto have some questions about someone, they can talk to their crew leader about what they see. So in this way we help each other take care of each other. So we're saying that the practice leader is... You don't then tell somebody, this is your practice leader and that's the person who's going to keep track of you. It's more like you're in this work environment and this environment is there. And you can also have a teacher And that's something to work on. Try to find somebody that you can really respect as a teacher, as a guide, as a good friend in your practice.

[37:13]

But that's, again, A lot of people, it takes a while to find that person and some people don't find a person like that at Zen Center. Some people are at Zen Center for years and they do not really find someone that they feel, this is my teacher, my life teacher. And I will, you know, this person is the person I work with on my practice. And I really trust this relationship. That takes a while for a lot of people, you know. I think there's another confusion that often seems to go on for a long time with newer students, like what does the brown robe represent? And I think in talking about Zen Kaisho and precepts and so on, you're preceptors. It's really what I often say to people. I'm basically authorized to do one thing, offer precepts. I mean, that's the thing I can do.

[38:15]

May I? Yes. And I don't know if we want to make that more of a distinction. I mean, I think there's a lot of mystical thinking about what the brown rubber represents. So you're saying that one of the things a brown rubber represents is a person can give precepts. What is one other thing they can give? They can give the Dharma. So they can give both. I think people find that out pretty quickly, but we can also leak it more, that the people in brown robes can bestow bodhisattva precepts. They cannot bestow the four-part Vinaya because they didn't receive it.

[39:15]

But they can bestow the sixteen bodhisattva precepts and they can bestow Dharma. I think people couldn't know that. That's okay with me. I don't know how we're going to tell them. But I think they kind of know about the precepts, I think, after not too long. Oh, that part. You can link that they are enlightened. They are enlightened, but they're human beings. You can leak that they're human beings if you want to. I don't know how you're going to do that, but I think it's fine. I think it's fine because they don't want to have to spend all their time saying over and over, I'm a human being, I'm a human being. They want to talk about something besides that. Whereas other people just want to talk about that, so please, you know, wake that. And people can talk about that over lunch. So they have been transmitted the true Dharma, they have the Bodhisattva precepts, and they're human.

[40:26]

That should be known. I don't know how you're going to communicate it. I mean, you could just announce it at work meetings. Why? I know this is saying many things, but I notice when I look at the list of practices, the city center, for example, is like, I don't know, 30 names. And there's no distinction about these are who said, and I don't think, I think we've equalized a certain thing. which is fine, I don't mind that, the one's wonderful, but I don't think it would help any people understand that there are actually certain different functions that these different... That's a good point. Why don't you put that on the agenda for Abbott's group? Maybe they could be like preceptors and practice leaders, something like that. That'd be fine, I think. Because when you say find a teacher here, you mean you or who or Linda? Well, I don't know yet. I actually... I don't know if I would say if someone chose a priest who hadn't finished dharma transmission as their teacher, I don't know if I would necessarily say this is not appropriate.

[41:42]

I think I might say, I think I can work with that. But, you know... When Jim made out his application for Tassajara, he filled in on the application that his teacher was Yossi. And people thought, well, I don't know if Yossi's in a position. But anyway, people thought that was a bit much to say that Yossi was his teacher. But if he said that Timo was his teacher, maybe we'd say, okay. I don't know. If Timo had been finished shusso and he said, Timo is my teacher, we might say, okay. So maybe if somebody has finished being shusso and somebody says, I'm my teacher, maybe we say, okay, because maybe we say, being ordained as a priest, finishing shusso, Maybe they can say that.

[42:43]

Or even a lay person who has finished Meishu Shou and they say, this is my teacher. You might say, okay, that's all right. We can go with that. That person can be your good Zazen friend. But I think if they said, you know... I told this story before. If you can stand to hear it again. Meishu says to me, can I receive... Actually, can I have a name? Can I have a Buddhist name?" And I said, well, usually people receive the precepts and sew a robe before they get the name. He said, well, could I have Alan give me the precepts? Alan, who was one of the farm apprentices. Remember Alan? Kind of tall, kind of reddish hair. Nice guy. Can Alan give me the precepts? I said, well, usually the person is usually a priest to give the precepts. He said, oh, well, can Brian give me the precepts?

[43:44]

I said, well, Brian just got ordained a short time ago. And I said, you know Tayo? You know that old guy? He was ordained as a priest 26 years ago and he just recently became able to give the precepts. So it takes a while. He said, well, who can give the precepts? And I said, well, Linda and Fu and Maya and Arlene and Daigon. And he said, oh, Well, I guess it comes down to you and Daigon then. But he didn't really want these old people to do it. So I think the... Some new students, they would like other students to be their teacher. They just kind of... There's something really lovely about that, that they can... that Mishu could see the virtue in Alan and, you know, and Brian, and he could see that. That's great. And then there's this thing about, is the person mature enough?

[44:46]

And I think after being she was so, maybe so. Maybe, you know, maybe they basically help the person with their practice, right? Not necessarily give the precepts. And there are some senior people who around Zen Center, like, well, like Meg, and in the City Center, Susan O'Connell, and other people. They have students that they have practice instruction with who want them to give them the precepts, but they can't, so then they do the ceremony with somebody who can't, and then they participate in it. So there's some, there's a range there where I think we feel, okay, it's all right, they're senior enough. Yeah, okay. So, in response to this idea of the shift, this kind of change in our culture, in response to it, does it seem good? How would you present it to the community?

[45:51]

I think one idea was to meet with the practice leaders Yes? I think we're a little shy of a decision. It's kind of a proposal stage. It's a proposal, yeah. And then an idea was if we go forward to meet first with the practice leader. That would be good, too. Yeah. assess whether their function as crew heads, you know, so we have a lot of work to do and how that affects their productivity. That's just one thing. Especially if big crews like and things like that. I don't know if we want to get any of them having back to succession with their crew. We're not adding anything to what they're already doing. Yeah, we were kind of feeling like what they're already doing is actually what we need.

[46:57]

And if we need more from them, we can ask for it. But we already feel, I think, that when there's a problem, we usually hear from the practice leader first. The crew head, I mean. And the crew head often hears from somebody else on the crew about even some very intimate things. Somebody in the crew tells the practice leader, the practice leader, I mean the crew head, tells the tantra or something, or the director, or the abbot. So we're not adding anything. We're more like saying, empowering it. And if you look at the crew heads, they're mostly people who have been shuso. And Kaiyun hasn't been, but he's been offered it. So he's at the level where we're ready for him to have that kind of initiation. And he wants to help the people on the crew. So he wants to keep track of them. So I think we actually almost have all practice leaders in Francis.

[48:01]

Yeah, he'd be quite junior. And it's not the case that there are quite a number of senior staff. Historically, there have always been a number of senior staff. But still, we felt like and their eyes are on them, actually, more than they're practicing. Yeah, yeah. Their eyes of compassion are observing their crew. Timo, are your eyes of compassion on your crew? Well, it's a little bit of switch. Yeah. For me, as a true head. Yeah, it is. Well, no, this responsibility, I'm not his practice leader. No. I don't feel necessarily supported to report about. No. So, yeah. It's a shift. But even if the person has a practice leader, you're not their practice leader. Yes. The person might say, Timo is not my practice leader, but he is my work leader. and he knows about what I'm doing.

[49:01]

Or actually he doesn't know what I'm doing and I'm glad he doesn't. And then you feel like, I don't know what you're doing and I'm not glad I don't. So that would be something if you, the shift would be that you would feel responsible to know what the people in your career are doing. If you don't already feel that, you'd feel not only do you need to know, but we need you to know. And if you didn't feel like you knew, you might feel, that might be a new responsibility, but maybe you already feel that. When I think of your crew, whether you know it or not, I sometimes ask you, because I want to know about your crew, I ask you often. I don't know if I often ask you, but I often think, oh, how's Ted doing? And I asked you, you know, and you said, Ted's doing great, even though Ted's not a resident. I ask Timo how Ted's doing. How's Mio Yu doing? How's Andrew doing? I've asked you that. And he tells me his view.

[50:03]

So I can find out about them from Timo. We're not tracking the Zendo. No, you're not tracking the Zendo. Just a general department or showing the order thing. Misery. Joy. Joy. Yeah, and you're not tracking the Zendo. We're asking the Eno and the Tonto to track. If I want to know about the Zendo, I probably wouldn't ask their work, their crew head, but I would ask the Eno or the Tonto. And... The only question that comes up for me in this dynamic is if the crew member is seeking a good spiritual friend. The information flows one way, the check-in flows one way, but it may not be a full open channel the other way. There may be some friction or some, you know, it's a dual relationship to expect the crew head to be both the crew head and the good spiritual friend. No, yeah, I don't expect him to be the good spiritual friend.

[51:06]

No, I just expect him to be the, what do you call it? The word I was trying to remember the other day did not start with C. Good, because I kept trying to get it. What was it? It starts with an M. This thing, close. Morale. Morale is the female version of moral. But you said the female version of command. In the meeting you said you were looking for the female version. The female version for... Yeah, command, moral. People think of moral as a command. And the female version of moral, which people often associate with the Ten Commandments, the female version is morale. And I think this, we're hoping that the crew heads would augment the morale of the community. by knowing. And part of what the crew head might do is say, you know, how's your search for a good friend going?

[52:08]

I mean, as your friend, not necessarily your spiritual friend or your teacher, I'm wondering if you... I know you were looking for a teacher. How have you found it? He said, well, yes, I found one. My teacher is so-and-so. Great. I think he said it, but let me just say it again. So the idea isn't that the crew has become the practice leaders. It was understanding the history of how it came to be that everyone was assigned a practice leader. And it came from a feeling like there needed to be some kind of net with the work that we use. to make sure that everyone has someone that they connect with, that had some sense of how they were doing. So then we realized that there are a lot of things in place that can give us a feeling of how people are doing It's not to replace the functional practices, but they're still free to sign up with, meet with people's practices to find their good spiritual friend. It's just that we didn't feel like we needed to assign everyone because the crew that could have a sense if there was an issue that they could alert someone, or they're not seeing that both groups of WPAs, we could have a sense of how. So we thought there were a number of things in place that

[53:12]

that may make it not necessary to have that function of everyone needs to be assigned a practice leader. But it's not that those things didn't have the function of being a practice leader. And I think one of the things that I just noticed in my own mind or in the tone of what maybe people think we're asking for is a kind of policing function rather than You know, I know there were times when I was talked to when there would be some really, really serious psychological problems going on with someone living in Cloud Hall, and nobody told the practice leadership. And then I'd say, why didn't you tell me? It was audible or whatever it was, and they'd say, well, we didn't want to get them in trouble. And I think that the idea that we were telling somebody something that was going to get them in trouble was, first of all, it was very painful because I certainly didn't want to get them in trouble either. I wanted to get them some help or get them some, you know, find out what was happening and why they were doing this self-destructive behavior. So I guess it's also requesting kind of trust in one another that it's not asking you to report on anybody because they're doing bad things.

[54:19]

It's really just to see that they are feeling connected and supported and needing to talk to somebody. It would be good to know. And I'm not eyeing or jamming or anything. We can approach them and just ask, how are you doing? Would you like to have a conversation, take a walk or whatever? So... There is a kind of, I hope there's a comb of not wanting to catch people doing something that's not good. Yes. So when people come here first time, like a palm apprentice or a garden apprentice, used to assign practice leader, but it won't happen. If the person wants practice leader, then they can establish that opportunity. That's worth considering, changing that. This is still being built. It's still being talked about.

[55:20]

It's not yet. Just that those issue around friend is, yeah, very different feeling to person to person. And I have a lot of thoughts around it. And when I think about you, Tenshin Oshii, you are my teacher. But I may not think of you as a friend. But those kind of conversation can be very painful, just having it. You a friend? No, no, no, no. I really . So it's really, I don't know, spiritual friend, just a friend, and teacher, and what is looking for the crew leader? It sounds like it's not a friend, it sounds like not a teacher, but the crew wants to be a good friend of the crew?

[56:21]

That is the thing? I don't know. I think some would say yes, that they want to be a friend of the people on the crew. Well, to me, if crew head or crew head, it's easier to relate to. If crew head has to be my friend, I have a little bit difficulty. Can I do that? Like, am I really going to establish that way? Like a... The thing is, from what I understand, the practice leaders were started to, not because they felt everybody had to have so many practice discussions, but because Zen Center was getting big and couldn't keep track of everyone. the practice leader role turned into something different than just keeping track of people. So we want to go back to just keeping track of people and allow people practice opportunity, practice leader relationships that they can choose for themselves when they want to do so, but still keep track of everyone.

[57:29]

That's all. So the crew head, I mean, ideally, the crew head wants to be a good practice leader for the crew. I mean, if they don't, that's kind of some problem that they need to talk about with their practice leader, right? They don't really want to be a good practice leader for their group. But the relationship that they might have, a student might have with a practice leader, it seems it's better for them to pick the person themselves. And that some people may not be ready to do so. They may not want that right now. It's like asking for .. never asked to see him unless he requested. So that's kind of the model that you use with your students. Well, it seemed to me that a crew head would have a unique opportunity to know something he might know or she might know before anyone else if somebody was having a problem.

[58:30]

So it's really a good idea to have that. I've seen a couple of times where crew heads knew Well, I knew. I knew at times. I knew and I didn't know if I should tell anyone or not. I could see there was a problem. What do you say about the group that's in that? that those level four positions, part of their function is to take responsibility for the practice of their people who are on their crew. So it's not strictly a functional position, but we already say that they're responsible for the practice of their domain and the practice of the crew members living in their domain. A situation could evolve, I think, where a person on a crew would not feel that they were fairly seen by their crew head. And they might not have a practice leader, but that might have quite a bit to do with their difficulty that they couldn't seek someone else out to talk to.

[59:37]

So maybe the crew head or someone might encourage them to talk to someone about their side of it, you know, what's going on. I mean, I could imagine that happening. I think the culture would adapt. In various ways, if you make this change, there would be more communication between the students about the use of a practice leader. They would have to initiate it. So the whole communication about that would change. I appreciate that. point about often there are difficulties in the workplace, and it's helpful to have someone outside the workplace to talk to about them. And I think sometimes that's how people use a practice leader. So if we weren't assigning someone to that function to let them know that they could seek someone out, those conversations. I have a question about what Kiana said about not calling people in to see you. I'm interested. You know, I was wondering about the tanto, and I'm wondering about my own role.

[60:39]

Because I do have this impulse to be making contact with people, whether they come after me or not. You know, that I kind of initiate contact. And I don't call people in to do something, but I don't think I would do that. No. That could be that, or whatever you... They ask. No, no, no. Anyway. Every now and then you ask me if it's okay. Yeah, it could be helpful. I just wonder about in terms of your thinking about the role for like the abbess or the tanto of having contact with the people who here as residents. I understand that for you because they've ask you to be their teacher, it seems like there's a certain level of request there. And I feel that way about people asking me to be their teacher. I'm wondering what you might say about if you see a difference between the responsibilities that Jeremy and I have in these other positions that we're carrying. I have heard that some abbots or abbesses have

[61:49]

called or invited everyone in a practice period to come and see them. And when I hear that, I think, hmm. And I think, well, maybe with their personality that's okay. But with my personality, I don't think it works very well for them to feel like they have to come into the room and prostrate to me. I just feel funny about saying, you must do that. or even you're invited to, the Jisha says you're invited to, but they feel like, well, can I say no? So I don't feel comfortable about having people come in and prostrate themselves, you know. And then I have a scroll hanging behind me which has, you know, the Buddha and Dogen and Bodhidharma. And here I'm sitting there in this seat representing the lineage, and they're being asked to come in and bow to that, they may not be ready for that. So I don't do that, but maybe some other people, they sit in a seat and they say, well, I'm not, don't worry about it, I just happen to be here, I'm not, this is not the lineage, don't worry about it, this vow doesn't really count, you know, and it doesn't, you know, not a problem.

[63:06]

But with me, it's a pretty intense situation to go in there anyway and prostrate. And then to be told you're supposed to or called or required or anything like that, I feel like it just scares people too much, often. Some people are up for it. So I'm not offering to people informal or formal, but I would like to meet with you. I think for the abbess to say, I'd like to meet with everybody in the practice period or meet with everybody in Green Gulch, fine. In most Zen temples, the abbess... In most Zen temples, the person comes in and begs the abbess to be a student. You come in and you make a donation or offer some food and offer incense and then you go and ask the person to be your teacher while you're in the temple. You have to request to do it. So you prostrate and then request to be the student while you're in that temple.

[64:07]

Even Richard Baker didn't go that far. But you could come to Zen Center. No, you could be in Zen Center and not do that. Well, most of the time at Zen Center, you could be there that way. There were people at Zen. We had guest students then. Right. To be a resident, you had to go three times to see him and ask permission to come to the Zen Center. Yeah, maybe for a while. Then it got to that point. But that's the way it normally is in Japan. I remember somebody else telling me that they absolutely had to go to Dokusan with Rikuroshi. They didn't want to. and they were told they had to learn Sesshin. They didn't want to and they were told they had to. But that's normal in Asia that you would have to go see the teacher and people are afraid to go to see the teacher. And it kind of works in Japan. But with me, In America, in Japan, maybe I could go, you know, and I could, like, beat people up all day long and it'd be no problem, you know.

[65:16]

You'd be famous. But in this culture, you beat people up and they feel abused, you know, and they have lawsuits and stuff like that. They overdo it in Japan sometimes too. But anyway, for me, it doesn't work to demand people come and see me. But I think to say, I would like to see everyone in the practice period and to do it informally, I don't see a problem. But even formally might work for you. It just doesn't work for me. A lot of people have the same experience of being overwhelming. Yeah, yeah, I've kind of gotten that lineage, so it's kind of a problem. But what about the tantra? I think that's a different situation. What about the what? The tantra, to see all WPAs, I mean, he has to... Well, they're implicitly asking to see me if they're lying to be a WPA. I mean, it's just part of the process. And generally speaking, yeah, I try not to call people...

[66:18]

And I mean, I do sometimes tell people I want to meet with them, but I try not to call them in without warning so that we can find the best way to meet. In other words, I wouldn't just have Steven get someone from Lizendo to come meet me if they didn't know it was coming. Because what I'm saying, I could just call someone at Lizendo to meet with me unless they made a request or I talked to them about the fact that I wanted to. And sometimes the Jisha calls somebody who we assumed has asked, and they didn't know they asked, and they come in and they say, Why have you called me? Suzuki Roshi, just to amend the description you reported, he himself, except during Sashin, Jesus did not come and invite me to come for doksan.

[67:31]

But in daily life, he himself would come up to me and say, please come in and I want to give you duksan now. But it was more like, it wasn't like a demand, it was more like I have a gift for you. But it wasn't like the Jesus saying, you have to go see Satsuki Rishi because I would have felt really different. But he would offer it sometimes. And it's also sometimes I would just ask him face to face and then he would just, it would happen right then. But with the Richard... Were you ordained at that point? Mm-hmm. So you were a student. Yeah, he even said so. But he didn't demand it. He didn't demand that the people of Zen Center be his students. But it got to be that point, at least in your eyes, at a certain time in Zen Center history that that was the case. And again, there's virtues in that way, but there also were drawbacks which led to a big disruption, a big upheaval, a big trauma to Zen Center.

[68:38]

So that's part of my background is to watch that and see it didn't work very well. So I was careful about that and not just because of that. I didn't make notes, but I have a lot of other stuff I want to talk to you about, and I'm just sort of waiting for it all to come up. One of the things is that Our abbess asked to have some sessions where she could bring up questions she has about Asanga's teaching and the summary of the Mahayana. And I'm totally up for it, but I've noticed I have trouble finding a time when she and others could discuss these things with me, and I just thought maybe

[69:51]

This is another example. Some people have expressed, I don't know what the word is, not being really enthusiastic about studying the Mahayana Sangraha. So I thought perhaps we could, at the second half of priest meetings, we could have, for those who are interested, we could study the text and those who didn't want to study the text could leave. So I was thinking of that. as a possible venue to continue to study. Sort of go through the text again and see if there's questions you had. You can be brought up, we just go right through again, but not read it line by line. Just say, okay, chapter one, anybody have any questions? any confusions or doubts about chapter 1 and chapter 2, rather than not read it, but just go to particular points or bring up particular topics in relationship to different parts of the text, I thought maybe that might be a possibility.

[70:53]

But I'm also open to feedback on that idea. Positive. Positive. You're okay with that? Positive. And the thought occurs to me it might be uncomfortable for somebody who does not want to participate to walk out or to be excused. And I hope that someone could say, well, I'm actually not so interested and feel okay about leaving. Or is that too difficult? We could have a bathroom break then. Oh yeah, oh yeah. We could have a bathroom break. Perfect. No, no, no, no. First do K'in Hin. Then have a bathroom break. That's one of the things I want to talk about. No, I want to talk about the K'in Hin experiments.

[71:57]

But before we get there, what about that idea we have, the first part we deal with new material, You know, and then, like, because I understand we're kind of, like, going to be studying Heart Sutra, Genjo Koan, Phukanza Zengi, Sandokai Hokkizamai. We have plenty to study there, but do that at the first part, and then in the second part do the Mahayana Samgraha for a while until we finish the Mahayana Samgraha and then continue studying these other texts. Yes? Yes. Well, I like that idea. I think sometimes at the beginning we go over some things, you know, that are not the study, and maybe we just give the last 40 minutes or something. I mean, it doesn't have to be the whole second half of the meeting. Yeah. So that we have enough time. Yeah. Or we feel some spaciousness around it. Yeah, yeah, right. Or alternate weeks for the conference or one or the other.

[72:59]

Okay. All right. I'm going to try both those ways. Better for what? Okay. Hmm? Yeah. And another thing is, I just saw Maya. There she is. And that reminds me, Maya, I think, Maya, I think Maya kind of would like it if you're using this mokugyo, I think she would like you to hold it like this. and go like this, rather than like this.

[74:02]

I think she said somebody was holding it on a cushion, and she thought it'd be better to do it like this. So if you'd like to do me a favor, and you're using this mokugyo, either put it down on the ground, on a table, on a cushion, you know, You know, like either in a cavern, in a canyon, excavating for a mind, or pick it up like this. Okay? Nice. Yeah, so that's Maya's request. So we have a chance here to do something for Maya. We can have a ceremony real soon. We can go find her and go do that right now. Okay? Yes. We have opportunities to grant beneficence. I was going to ask how you feel about our new practice of having people do kinhin together and not leaving, you know, and having just a few people doing kinhin.

[75:17]

How is that going? I think it's a really good idea. Enjoying it? Enjoying it. Are you inspired? It's nice to have the whole song of doing it instead of having two-thirds of the people go off. Yeah. Okay, we have a positive review on that practice. Any other comments? Yes. Yes. Well, I found it on the first day, a bit strange, it was a trickling bag, and some people don't know how to open the door and plug it again, and yeah, I thought it was disturbing. And then I thought, well, the Kenyan gives a bit more form of coming in than coming back. I suggested that, you know, we leave the door open until the majority of people would come, because they really don't know how to handle that door. And it was the most disturbing part was the things at the door. And I think that... Did you do that today? Yeah, we did that, but it stayed open for a long time. I mean, you know, because people were still coming in. And it doesn't stay just closed by itself.

[76:18]

It goes all the way open. And the people who are sitting on that time, it's kind of distracting. Did they tell you that? Yeah, but I mean, I think so. We just heard about it. But we could, I would like to make several announcements. How do you open the door and shut the door noiselessly? Because it's possible. How about if somebody like the Tinkin or someone like Shelton actually was a doorkeeper? You know, stood out there and just helped people. How do you know when the last person is? Well, I mean, figure 10 minutes or something and then just... Yeah, it was 10 minutes this morning. I thought I was pretty long. I can't see that, but it's all open. So... I think, I pray that people will become more skillful opening and closing the door.

[77:24]

And because I can understand, even at the other end of the Zendo, I could hear the click. And I can understand that if you're closer to it, it would be quite loud. So I appreciate the feedback and... I'm willing to trade seats with you. I think that it is possible for people to become more skillful When I was at a Soto Zen training experience, we did kini, everybody did kini, and then people went on breaks. And there weren't so many people, that's a factor. But still, huh? And they were all priests. But still, I was there for several days before I realized anybody left and came back.

[78:29]

So they went out and came back, and they did it behind the altar, so I couldn't see them moving somehow. And so I think we can get better at going out and coming in quietly, because I think it should be really quiet. It was kind of bumpy at the beginning. And also when they walk. Some people walked really smoothly and quietly and some other people were walking a little less, not as, but not this morning because I was out, but the day before, yesterday. the people who came back in were very quiet, the way they moved. And they also, they should walk slowly. So we gradually teach them to walk slowly, quietly. That will help, I think, too, and we'll get better at that, hopefully. But then new people will come, new guest students, and then I have to learn that.

[79:30]

So that Does the guest do manage to give instruction as part of the gift? You know, I will, you know. Can you open and close the door, please? OK. I think it's about the door. You can shut that door. The biggest observable difficulty continuously is that the newest people who are on the floor don't go around so that people at the time tend to be not able to move. The circle doesn't actually get spread out evenly. Yeah, because those folks likely need this big gap, and then, you know, so it's really the least senior people who are responsible for allowing the circle to open. So, I mean, I did say something this morning, but that's, I think that's just an ongoing thing. That's going to be an ongoing thing. And during the practice period, I think once we get it, it'll probably be well established. And the more people that are doing kin-hin,

[80:31]

the clearer it is that it's necessary. So, yeah, so the Abbas and the Tanto and the Eno can keep training people until the practice period starts, and then the practice period starts training those people. But once they get it, I think we'll have several weeks of trained people in there. And then Sashin will have to train them again. In the past, there was the custom. I mean, there were some people that left every day. It was automatic. You knew who was going to leave. You know, now they're just learning how to do Kenyan essentially. Yeah, right. I had a problem with Kenyan for many years myself. And finally, guess what happened? A lot of, you know, whatever it was, whatever it was, I don't abide in it.

[81:43]

Instead of people walking all the way forward, did some people walk back? Yeah, I backed up a little bit on Sunday because there was only three people in the center area, so I backed up to them. I wonder, is it too much to really encourage people to stay second period of Zazen II? If you have to go to bathroom, you can, but it's not really good, like a... Yeah, I think it's too much for older people. Some older people really cannot make through two periods. And service. And service, they cannot make it. But I think for people in their 20s, it's fine. Most of them can make it.

[82:46]

But in people in their 60s and 70s, I can make it, but that's about it. Two periods, two periods, ki and hin, and service. That's about, you know, after that, I kind of need to go. And, yeah, I think people's bladders are weak, and we have so many older people now. We're not... Or some of us don't have very strong bladders, or they're too strong. So I think for some people it's too much. Could we go back to the Mahayana Samgraha for a minute? I realize my response to it is kind of slow and arising. And I have something that's kind of the nature of feedback to you, is that all right? Yeah. Because I was one of the first people who woke last one night about not... For me, a couple of difficulties that I have with it.

[83:51]

One is that there are no other commentaries that we have on it, that I know of anyway. So we're getting... your interpretation only. And in one way, that's fine, but in another way, it's kind of... The other texts, we have many voices coming in, and I enjoy that. But then in the presentation, sometimes I really appreciate that you go wholeheartedly into what you're doing and that you're very enthusiastic about it. But in the enthusiasm, I feel left behind. I'm, like, kind of... Yeah, I feel, as I've mentioned, sometimes the lack of other voices coming in. And it kind of gets so speeded up sometimes and so energetic that I have a hard time with it. And I imagine I will stay, if I may, because I want to be with the other priests, whatever we're doing.

[84:58]

I don't really want to leave for half the meeting. So that's kind of what I wanted to say about it. And I think it would be helpful if there were some other commentaries, which I don't mean to denigrate you or your effort in any way. I appreciate it. And it's a very difficult text. Well, in this particular case, I was asked by Phu. She wanted to ask me questions. She didn't say, could I study some other commentaries? If she wants to study other commentaries, she can do it, but then she still wants to talk to me. But not everybody wants to. That's why I thought I should bring it up here. But now I feel, again, like maybe we shouldn't do it here. I should find some other time because I don't want to be pushing the limits of your patience and making it really hard for you.

[86:04]

I just feel like I hear a cry of distress and I feel like I probably shouldn't offer it in your presence because you need commentaries and other voices more than you're getting. And so I just kind of feel like maybe it's just not auspicious to do it under these circumstances. That's why I brought it up beforehand. I just thought this might be a way to do it. But now I feel that you'd feel excluded if you didn't come. And if you're included, you feel excluded and left behind. Am I the sole voice with any feeling around what I'm saying? Because maybe I am. I think other people have your feeling, share your feelings. And Sarah also is someone who said she just, she said, just doesn't really like... And other people also have expressed some difficulty at various points with the text over the years. And when we're studying Samadhi Nirmacana also, people express some difficulty.

[87:08]

So you're not the only one who has difficulty. But we did sort of finish the text, and there was a request for more. So I thought, well, since we have this venue, maybe we could use it for this purpose. But maybe I'll look for some other venue. But I hear Kathy calling for your support. I feel like when the conversation goes from reading this very scholarly, in my opinion, dry text that I don't have a strong comprehension of, I think it's interesting we bring it to a contemporary setting and how we use it in our lives. But a lot of the text is about stages of enlightenment, it seems like a theory to me, which is a practice that I can use.

[88:13]

My relationship to it feels like I'm always trying to figure out, well, how could this be useful for me to interact with others? So that's where I feel this joy. No, like Louisiana was. It was just, like, I'd love to be a scholar, and I'd like to study, but I can't try to check that part-time. I accept that. I'm not as smart as I would like to be. You're not as smart as you'd like to be? No. I didn't know that. And that's when I get more sleep, I feel that. When you get there in my sleep, you're almost as smart as you'd like to be? I think it's really obvious in the trading position how smart you are. Timo, did you have some comment? Yeah, I'm in support of what I feel is coming up with Cassie.

[89:19]

I feel like, and for me it's not so much to have different voices from text, but also to have the different voices coming up in this group. And I feel the setup is made really like a teacher-student setup. And that might be the point of it. But it's not a mutual discussion about texts, I feel like. So it's more like you're presenting the text and the interpretation, and we ask for your interpretation. And that is a good setup for teacher-student. But it's not. mutual discussion, I feel like. And sometimes I'm missing that, like, oh, I'd like to actually discuss on an equal level this point. And I see the two different parts. I can ask you, for example, something in a discussion, and I might get an answer where I feel like, oh, I practice now, whereas I want to actually bring an argument back, and I don't.

[90:20]

Something like that. So it's not like, university feeling of discussing the text here and that is what I'm sometimes also missing and yeah so there are these two parts and I can feel with Cassidy that sometimes I'd be like oh I'd rather have a discussion where people's other opinions are just equally left After the last week's meeting, I actually went home and I started studying reading the Shakyamuni [...] I don't know the commentary on why I'm on some ground, but it's like, we're studying a case that I already have a relationship with.

[91:25]

It's part of my life that I really wanted to learn, but I don't quite have the same feeling about it. And I came in, people had already been studying for a couple of years too, so I kind of missed it. first four chapters. It's a little esoteric to me to get into. I think there's something that I think part of why I wanted to do it by asking you questions, because then that put the responsibility on me to read the chapter again and pull out the places where I felt like I didn't, and I'm following this, you know, and to be able to say to you, this is the part I don't understand, and to be able to get into particularities around that rather than...

[92:25]

The whole vision, if I'm trying to put together the puzzle, and I kind of like the puzzle, personally, because it does seem to be everything we've ever studied, 12-volt chain and so on, and unconscious processes and consciousness, and how that all actually was developed by these brilliant peoples to help make up for some deficiencies in the early... So because I try to teach this stuff, to have those deficiencies, and I don't understand, The conflict is, I feel like this text is really very generous in creating, filling in gaps. And I don't know anything else that's been that supportive that we've read together. I feel like this is kind of a really essential help in my own study. But I would also like to be able to do it without going line by line by line and, you know, being able to actually do our own homework.

[93:26]

Like, I like it when somebody would go home and read it. I do have this book, which I don't know, Kathy, if you have it or liked it or found it useful, but I find it fabulous as a compliment to... The Buddhist Conference of the United States of America. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a lot to absorb. But it's been so helpful to be able to see what was the problem, why was there a problem, what was the ally trying to solve, and to begin to get the picture of how this all fits together. And it's hard for me when we do line by line by line, because I lose the picture. I don't know who we are sometimes. the center of the text. And if I'm not taking responsibility for going back over the big picture again, I just stay lost in a certain way. So I was hoping that it would require me, by going through a chapter with questions, that just ask me, can we go through this whole text again? Because I don't know that that would be, serve what I am trying to learn.

[94:32]

So that was kind of my idea that I spent time with you in a more of a question and answer way. Yes. Well, I concur with this. And I think my own experience with reading the Maha-Liyasam Graha is that I just scratched the surface. And I think now would be a chance to go back and really explore, in a sense, what we did was kind of superficial. I think it depends on what level you are. I think that people's experience and their knowledge is so different. Yes, true. So I feel like that's a big factor in when you interact with it and the interest that it's above your head. If it's above my head, it's a constant struggle to try to follow. And again, the line by line, certainly again with the previous chapter.

[95:35]

The request that you were making was, I understood it the way you're saying it now, that you actually would have questions that you would bring and they would be brought out and we would deal with them. And you already have them to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. And it may not be the case that each of you has a bunch of questions on the text that you would like to bring, but she does, and so I thought, okay, I'd be happy to do that. So it could just be her and me, but she's also welcomed other people to witness that, her asking questions, and other people might have questions too. But, so I'm not quite sure how to proceed at this point. But I did feel a request from you, and I think it would be interesting for me to respond to it.

[96:49]

I would enjoy that. And I was looking for the right venue, who would be included in that. But I do hear that a request for when we study text to have more dialogue. And I was actually thinking today that I was going to ask different people For example, I bought the Heart Sutra. I was going to ask you, and I was, for example, I was going to ask, I thought, ask Timo what it was like for him when he was practicing in Germany to be chanting the Heart Sutra in Japanese. Because he didn't chant it in German, right? Yeah. So in Germany, he didn't translate, he didn't chant the Heart Sutra in Germany, he chanted it in Japanese.

[97:51]

I was going to ask him, how was the Heart Sutra for you at that time? And so I was going to ask other people, what is your relationship with the Heart Sutra? I was going to do that today. Rather than me tell you my relationship with it. I was going to ask you to tell me about yours. So I'm up for doing that. We can try that more. Yes? I guess I just want to say I felt a little restriction around response to Kathy, because I feel like we're trying to feel our way here, because I'm kind of interested too. I, of course, missed a whole bunch of it, about this reading this text as well, and the feeling of going back, I just...

[98:55]

going through the questions or creating more dialogue around it rather than deciding today it's this or it's not this. I'm interested in Caroline's point of view, too. I just wonder if we can kind of work it a little bit before we land on something. I mean, I think we're getting a lot of ideas about how to relate to what we're doing here. So anyway, I kind of would like to keep the conversation a little bit open as to whether you put some time. If you're thinking of this, we'd be having certain questions. We can get questions out on the wall. Anyway, something not decided today. I won't say it again. I didn't come one year, so many things may happen. But when I was here, yes, it was difficult. But if Tenshin Oshii didn't present, I didn't probably have a chance to pick up the book and try to read by myself.

[100:04]

And many things I did not comprehend, still there is something I want to learn. What is this about? And it didn't bother me. I don't understand, actually. surprised Kathy said he sometimes left behind. I really, when I was there, I really enjoyed your viewpoint, what you said, and the question about, and that itself is very, yeah, it's a benefit for me. And if I kind of want to do it again, whatever the form is, and that, I really feel benefit personally for me, definitely. And I remember last time, like, we are kind of editing our last book together, and those things are far, like, I had almost no idea, but I was sitting there, and recently I bought a, I'm sorry, recently I bought a book, and reading it,

[101:14]

totally much easier for me to understand. I feel like I understand. So definitely, we have to someday, somehow, have to encounter those, if we are lucky enough, encounter those texts. And I feel like this is a great opportunity. My remarks, I wasn't intending to say that we shouldn't do it again. I was... It was in part a request for... I thought you gave me feedback, I thought. I didn't hear a request. Well, all right. For me to not do this. It's a request, could we do it in a little bit of a different way? And I also just want to say about saying that not having the other commentaries, because I'm looking at the Genjo Kahn a bit right now on certain lines. I've looked at, you know, four different commentaries and they all say different things for the same line.

[102:20]

So I'm not, I'm not, intending it as criticism or lack of respect. But sometimes when things are interpreted a certain way, I think, it doesn't seem to me like that's what it means. And there's nothing else to check it against. That's all I was trying to say. Well, as I said before, the suggestion from Phu was to approach the text from the point of view of her questions and her questions about... She's got the text, she's read it, she's got notes, and there's certain points that she's not clear about that she'd like to clarify, and she'd like to do that with me. So I thought, well, other... And she said, and other people could be there while we're doing this, and other people could also bring any points that they thought were important and that they wanted to clarify, they could do it too, and you'd probably be happy for that too.

[103:32]

Yeah. So I was intending to do it in a different way. If I had lots of time, I would go through the text line by line again. If I had time, and I do have time, I will memorize the text line by line and recite it from memory. But I haven't got to that point yet. But, you know, I would very much like to memorize the text. I would like to memorize the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra. I would like to memorize the Lotus Sutra. That's the kind of guy I am. And I'd like to recite it, but I haven't quite done any of that yet. But that's my aspiration. And I feel very good about being interested. I'm just amazed that I'm interested. And also, I'm amazed that at the senior seminar, that these old people, instead of playing bingo... Do you know about bingo, Timo?

[104:39]

It's a game that they play at the old folks' home in the United States. They get together and they play this game called bingo. They have bingo parlors in there. You see all sorts of people playing. Young people, too. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, instead of playing bingo, we're studying the Samy Nirmacana and things like that. It's just amazing that these old folks... who can barely remember where my house is, or where their house is, are really interested in these ancient Indian Mahayana texts. It's just amazing. You get a little insight, kind of like bingo. Actually, they do say bingo every now and then, yeah. And then they start dancing for joy. And any other feedback on anything? Yes? one class doing like chapter one together and see how it feels and then talk about it again and if we don't want to do chapter two that's fine and you and I can find time to do that together and other people can come and just try it once again okay Grace any comments?

[105:57]

I'm just wondering when we're going to do that how about next time Actually, how about next time we start with the Heart Sutra and have people tell us about their life, my life with the Heart Sutra, my relationship with the Heart Sutra. If people would give a little expression of how the Heart Sutra is functioning in their life. I had that idea. How about that next time? Okay? Well, we could start and then let the Heart Sutra discussion guide us. Do you like that idea? No? Doesn't look like you like it very much. If you don't like it, you have to make an alternate suggestion.

[107:00]

Well, I just didn't get much of a response. I know, my only hesitation is, now that we're talking about Chapter One of the Sangha, that I'm thinking, I need to make sure that I reread it before collecting it. So I just want to know what we're going to talk about. Oh, so you say you can read it again before we do. Well, it sounds like we're on the verge of a decision, Sonia. How are you feeling? Should we postpone the decision?

[108:01]

She kind of wants a date. Why don't Sonia and Grace work out the schedule? Next week after that we can do the Mahayana Simran. How's that? That sounds great. Okay. So you ready for that decision, Sonia? Yeah. Okay. So we will... We will talk about the Heart Sutra next time and focus on each person's, what the Heart Sutra is in their life, how they're practicing with it. how it's living in their practice, how it relates to their whole life as a kind of format for discussion next time. And then the following week we will meet and people who have questions about Chapter One can bring up their questions for the group to discuss.

[109:08]

Okay? How's that sound? I wonder if people would be willing to send their questions so that we could be reflecting on the questions, too. I mean, it's a possibility to have the questions beforehand, just the opportunity to read the text with those questions in mind. What do you think of that suggestion, folks, that Kathy just made, of sending questions beforehand for contemplation? I mean, you couldn't submit a question on the spot. It wouldn't be required. If you know you have questions ahead of time, just to send those out. If you'd like to share your questions beforehand, sounds like Kathy would like to see them. You'd like to, that's right. Seems like Kathy would like to see that. Would it be a reminder email?

[110:17]

Would you like to coordinate that? Yeah, I'd be happy to. Okay, Kathy's up for coordinating questions ahead of time for people to look at. You don't have to send a question. You don't have to have a question. You don't even have to come. But you have to be yourself. And you have to make the appropriate response. I just thought a question could come and I wouldn't I wouldn't even have in mind the context, so that establishing the whole context would take time. Well, I think it would be helpful for the person with the question first to establish the context, and then what the question was in the relationship. You know, which particular section, paragraph, the question had to be. You know, kind of,

[111:17]

You have a question. This is your understanding, and this is the document, and it hasn't been... What? Well, that's kind of an essay, but I could say what section the question's coming from, regarding section of chapter one, because that's how I listed it myself, and then see if that helps. I think it will reveal itself in two weeks. Oh, I also, I thought of something else you have to do. What? You have to say what you really want. I knew, I knew that. And I just, it's wonderful. Joy arose in my mind of somebody saying, wanted to ask a question about a certain section in that text. Just as someone would say, at that point in the text, I have a question.

[112:31]

I think that's just, you know, that's lovely. Just like, right there, those words, I have a question about that. I'd like to talk about that. There's something I'd like to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. Concerning the teaching of the Dharma, there are certain points I'd like to discuss with you. I just appreciate that you, but we all just kept turning back to try and come up with something. Right? Any further suggestions or comments? Lots of something that we don't have to do.

[113:34]

We don't have to walk through the deserts repenting. We don't have to walk through the deserts repenting. Also, you don't have to be me. You don't have to do that. It's a great idea, but you don't have to. And by the way, although you don't have to, it would be a lot easier for you to be me than to be yourself. That's what you think. That's what I think. That's what I think. That is what I think. Why do you think so? I do not know. I only have stories about it. What's your story about it? Well, it's a long story. We don't have time for it right now. But that's a short story.

[114:39]

One other point, harking back to an earlier discussion, if I may. Do you have, you do have some kind of crew meetings, don't you? Yeah, so, and you don't have any crew meetings because you don't really ever... Oh, okay. So now you have crew meetings. So if we wanted to know about... You could tell us quite a bit. What? No, but he wouldn't... Hakusho is not falling through the cracks now with you. Not with me. He might have to. No. Get it ready. So I think there is a request, Timo, that you know about and take care of your crews. I think we're requesting that of you.

[115:51]

And just to make clear that that's being requested of you. You're frowning, Sonia. So in response to your frowning, I just want to say that we request that of you. We request that of you too. Yeah. And we request that of the Eno, of course, and the Tonto. We request it of all the leaders that they be in touch and that they have some kind of... Maybe we want to have meetings, but you almost never do. Yeah. And do the other crews have more of a meeting than just every morning meeting? So the kitchen has every morning meetings. and also once a week you have another meeting. The guest program has every morning meeting and once a week meetings. The farm does. But when the crew gets smaller it does seem to be

[116:54]

hard to have every morning meeting and also another meeting. The other meetings you almost never have, right? Well, I talk a lot one-on-one. I mean, I feel like I have so much contact one-on-one than having two people that, yeah, it just come up. So you feel that you're in close contact? I do feel that I'm in close contact. Well, I think that that's... The shift we're suggesting is, if you see this expression, based on that there is that kind of contact. Because if there is that kind of contact, then I think we don't need the practice leaders to serve that function anymore. that the people that are working together are having close contact and people are known and we want that, we need that. It sometimes happens that I say, I think you should talk to your practice leader about that.

[118:01]

And, of course, that is not in existence. It's different. I think you should have a talk about that. I mean, you can still make a recommendation, but it's funny. Someone did talk to you about the practice. It's just they weren't somewhat centered. Or you can say to the person, do you have a teacher here at Edson Center? And they might say, yes. You say, I think it's good for you to talk to your teacher about that. Yeah, that makes it easy, but sometimes it's like, no, and... If they say no, then you might say, well, even if you don't have a teacher, then why don't you talk to the abbess or the tanto? Hmm? I don't think it takes a long time to see the Tanto. He's pretty quick. So I think that in all the work areas, and Anna and Shokuchi aren't here, but maybe they'll listen to this, that there are times when the crew heads do feel like, you know, how do you talk to your teacher about this?

[119:11]

Do you have a teacher? And if they say no, say, oh, if they do, I think, you know, I think your teacher should know about this. So, and a lot of people... Do you have to follow up? Is it our responsibility to then follow up? Is that a guideline? I think, generally speaking, it is our responsibility to follow up on what we do, yes. If they didn't go, if I said they should come talk to the teacher, the fact that they didn't? Yeah, generally speaking, if you suggest something to someone, you might ask them after you suggest it, do you think that's a good idea? That would be a follow-up. So you say, I think this would be good to talk to your teacher about this. And they go, uh-huh. And you say, do you think it's a good idea? If you ask them that, that's a follow-up. And then they say, yeah, I think it is. And you say, oh, okay. Do you mind if I ask you, would you let me know if you do?

[120:15]

And they say, yeah. And you wait for a while. They don't say anything. And you say... Do you remember I asked you about that? And they say, yeah. Did you go? And they say, no, I didn't go yet. And say, oh. Or, yeah, I go. I forgot to tell you. Yeah, follow up. Yeah, follow up. But following up is an ongoing process. So it's not, we don't have a particular schedule when we check on things. But I do ask people, basically I ask people what they want to do. Like also I said on Sunday, some Zen teachers say, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not concerned about telling you. The student says, what should I do? The teacher says, I'm not concerned about telling you what to do. I'm concerned about you clarifying your mind. That's my job, is to help you do that. But part of that is for you to tell me what you want to do.

[121:18]

And then if you tell me you want to go north, I watch you. And if I see you go south, I probably will ask you, since you told me you wanted to go north, I'll probably ask you, what did you say again? What did you say you wanted to do again? So I think if you're working with people and they say, well, I'm going to go into the walk-in now, and then they go someplace else, you say, what was it? What did you say again? So I think, yeah, follow-through is really... But it's this mutuality thing. We're not controlling people, we're just following through with them. According to our understanding, part of the follow-through is to keep re-checking about whether we... What our agreement was. Did we have one? What was it? Do we have one? Over and over. Yeah. Since the minute of one, Mark. Mostly I say to her, you're an adult. What do you want to do? What are you up to? And I think the folks here are adults.

[122:18]

No exceptions. They're over 21. And I feel like it really should be clear to them it's their decision, their choosing or wanting to do something. It really would be up to them to... And some of the things that they tell us, we'd like her to support that. Like some people told me this morning what they wanted to do, and I said, you know, I want to support you doing that. And people here have a lot of good intentions and we want to help them and follow through on helping them with their intentions. But we have to find out what they are. And so we need, in the work situation, we have to find out what their intentions are and so on. So I think the shift, the virtue of this shift, one of the virtues of this shift is that we we'll be able to be in the zendo in the morning more together. That our wish to take care of people, it manifested in the form of a lot of people leaving the zendo so that we could find out what's going on with them.

[123:27]

And I think we can find this out by these other means and therefore we don't have to leave the zendo so much in the morning. And it's not just that we will be together, which is part of it, really important, but we will get to work with ourselves more because we're going to be less out there talking to other people. So our own personal practice will be intensified and our group practice will be intensified, hopefully without losing contact with each other. We don't want, because that would be dangerous. So hopefully we can make this adjustment. And again, as Phu said, the city center is not the same. They're not responsible for the people who don't live there. And a lot of people who practice the city center don't live there. So it's a different kind of... I shouldn't say they're not responsible.

[124:31]

They're responsible in a different way than we living here together. And Tassajara, again, The setup is that there aren't these droves of people leaving the zendo to go to practice instruction, you know. So there aren't thirty practice leaders at Tassar. In the summertime, the practice discussion is on the person's day off. Only Do Kisan was during Tassar. No, you know, Do Kisan was like an abbess. Interesting. That's how it was when I was there. Okay. Or the tanto during practice period, but not in the summer. Tanto also, you know. Day off. Yeah, but then... May our attention equally extend to our greeting and praise with the true merit of God's way.

[125:29]

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