Okay, case 19. I just, I don't think we did enough on case 18, but. What? Okay. It's called Yunman's Sumero. The introduction says, I always admire the novel devices of young men. All his life he pulled out nails and wedges for people. Why did he sometimes open a door and set out a bowl of glue or dig a pitfall in the middle of the road? Try to discern. Any questions about the introduction? Is the guy that's writing the introduction the same as the person who does the first commentaries?

[01:13]

Yeah, he does the major commentaries. He does the commentaries, but he doesn't do the verse. Okay? I mean, is that real simple? Yes? Yes? Do some of the krisas kind of, do they kind of, or sort of relate to each other? I mean, do they reflect the one before, the last two before? Do they? Yeah, sometimes they do. I mean, I think that the guy who compiled this collection decided what order these would be in. And particularly the first few cases, I feel, I sense what he had in mind in the order.

[02:17]

But sometimes I don't see particularly why the next one would follow. But in this case it would be interesting to contemplate why it follows 18. And then this is back here is genie and spider. Any other comments on the introduction? Questions on the introduction?

[03:21]

Is it that simple? I always admire the novel devices of Yuen Mun. All his life he pulled out nails and wedges for people. Why did he sometimes open the door and set out a bowl of glue or dig a pitfall in the middle of the road? Try to discern. A monk asked Yin Men, not producing a single thought, is there any fault or not? Yin Men said, not sumeru. The national teacher Yuan Tong Shan said, this case is debated everywhere.

[04:50]

Some say, as soon as one questions in this way, already this is raising thought. Fault as big as Mount Sumeru. Any questions about that? Would someone explain, please? That's... I think that someone could say that.

[05:54]

But this particular sentence there, I don't know if it means that. As soon as someone questions in this way, in what way is that, do you think? In what way? When they say in this way, what way do you think they mean? When the monk said, when not producing a single thought, So that question. So questioning that way, some people say, is a fault as big as Monsignor. That questioning. He's referring to that question and not, is there any fault or not? Yeah, he's referring to is there any fault or not question. Right? So some people say that that when the monk asked this question about is there any fault when not even producing a single thought, that when Yunmin said Mount Samarrow, he was saying, you just made a big mistake.

[07:13]

That's what some people say. Okay? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That's what some people say. And some people say it is like Mount Sumeru, unmoved in the eight winds, remaining steadfast for a thousand ages. What is like Mount Sumeru? Not producing a single thought. Not producing a single thought is like Mount Sumeru. So the monk says, okay, he wants to know about not producing a single thought. He says, is it a fault or not? And Yin Man's talking about that. He doesn't say it's a fault or not. He just says it's like Mount Sumeru. It's unmoved. Okay, that's what some people say. And some say that because it is difficult for people to pass through, it is like Mount Sumeru.

[08:18]

It's difficult to pass through what? Not producing a single thought. Not producing a single thought. It's difficult to pass through this. People want to know whether it's a fault or not, right? But without saying that it's a fault or not, just pass through it, that's pretty difficult. So some people say that passing through such a state is difficult, like Mount Sumeru. No. Arriving at such a state is not easy either. Okay? So this monk's not just asking about arriving at such a state. He's asking if you did arrive at such a state, would that be a fault or not? Okay? So arriving at such a state was quite a feat. Or maybe it's not a feat. But anyway, the question is how to pass through it and not make a fault in such a state.

[09:25]

And then some people say that such a state is difficult to pass through. Other people, of course, would say that it's difficult to attain a state or realize such a state. But realizing a state is not as difficult as to pass through it. Because you have to realize it to pass through it. Yes? How would you pass through it? Some people say Mount Sumeru. That's what some people say. What's the matter? Hmm? You're in a state where there's no thought, and you pass beyond that state into some other state? It doesn't quite say there's no thought. It says no thought arises.

[10:27]

So you're in a state where no thought arises. It's difficult to pass. Some people say that it's as difficult to pass through that as it would be to pass through this mountain. So what's your question? Well, passing through means becoming free. It means not attaching to it. I mean, a lot of people are not attached to very high yogic states because they haven't even got there yet, so they don't have any problem with being attached to it. But this is a case where you've got this in your face, so how do you not get hooked by it? So some people say, the monk's saying, okay, we've got this state. Now, is this state a fault or not? And Yunmen says, to know how to deal with this without being concerned or getting into whether it's a fault or not,

[11:39]

But to deal with it as it is, that's to pass through it. When you deal with it as it is, you're liberated from it. And so he says Mount Sumeru because that's difficult. It's difficult to leave ordinary states of mind alone. It's more difficult to leave fairly sublime states alone Not leaving sublime states alone are called Zen sickness, which can go back to case 11. So, some people say that what yin-men means is that to leave such a state alone or to pass through it is as difficult as to pass through Mount Samara. That's what some people say. The commentator says that. Grace?

[12:40]

That was the only thing I was going to ask about, was whether it was the second type of sickness that none of them talked about earlier. Was it the second type of sickness? Do you know? I don't know which type of sickness it is. I have to go back and look. It's the person who talks about it. It as sickness. I mean, being caught by the yin-men. The case 11 is yin-men also, where he talks about these four or five kinds of sicknesses. It's called yin-men's two sicknesses, but really there's four or five. So, yin-men has talked about these prototypic types of illness that you get from where the light is functioning but not thoroughly. So this state, the state of attainment, here again, the monk's saying, when you get to that place, is there any fault or not? And of course, there is a possibility of fault there.

[13:45]

But he doesn't say that. He says Mount Sumeru. But this teacher, this national teacher says, some people say this, some people say that, some people say this, okay? Then he says, such assessments have not yet comprehended yin-yang's meaning. Only if the bottom of the bucket has fallen out and the red thread is broken off would you realize it is not so at all. So this national teacher says that all those assessments of what Yunnan's up to don't quite make it. And he's saying that the bottom of the bucket has to fall out and the red thread has to be broken before you realize how it is that these assessments are not adequate. Haven't you heard it said that three phrases illumine one phrase, one phrase illumines three phrases.

[14:53]

Three and one do not intermingle. distinctly clear, the road going beyond. So the commentator's citing somebody who says, well, here's a story where we can make these various assessments, and they're not wrong exactly. They just don't reach the issue. And it's not so much to say what reaches the issue, but for us to let the bottom of the bucket drop out and the red thread be cut. In that case, we'll understand that these statements don't reach the meaning. Again, all these statements then could be said to say the meaning is not in the words. However, the meaning

[15:55]

of this story will respond to our effort. And it will respond according to our effort, it will respond. If our effort is complete and we cut off the red thread, then we'll understand how it is that these literary assessments are not adequate. What about cutting off the red thread? Yeah, what about it? What do you think? It's the bloodline. Yeah. She said, what's the red thread? And I said, what do you think? And she said, it's the bloodline. The lineage, where else? It could be by states in the two.

[17:03]

Yeah. Well, there's only one now, it's the meaning. Uh-huh. What else could the red line be? Karmic consciousness, I agree. Karmic consciousness, uh-huh. Human sentiment. human motivations, human cravings. And you can even say that the authentic lineage of the Buddhism patriarchs also are Buddhism pioneers or whatever. Anyway, so radical renunciation needs to occur, or complete renunciation needs to occur Yeah, that one? Yeah. Steward.

[18:08]

Steward. You carry. Carry. How's these two? Yeah. Why, should I steer? Should I back in the hole? So cheers. Okay. Yeah. So any other questions about the red thread? Can the red thread be looked at as supporting something?

[19:20]

Pardon? It's holding something up. Yeah, it's holding something up, right. Human sentiment holds something up. Right? Human craving holds something up. What does it hold up? Huh? The whole thing can hold up the idea of a self, yeah. Is it necessary for life? Is it necessary to be a human being? Yes. If it weren't for this human sentiment, would there be any Buddhas? No.

[20:23]

No. No. Yeah. So do you understand the thing that there wouldn't be any Buddhas if there wasn't this human sentiment and this idea of self? Yeah, because there would be no need. Right. Why did you say yes then? I said no. Why did you say no then? Because I said yes. Are you changing your story? Yes. Well, here's a little piece of something for you. It's a baby monster now. Just what I wanted. When I saw the red thread, I thought of the bloodline on the translation papers, and it made me think about the expression of

[21:29]

passing through the barriers of the ancestors, not falling into the nests of the ancestors. The ancestors' nests. So, are you ready to do that? You're not? Deborah? What's the matter? You just don't feel ready to do that? You don't? You just don't. What are you ready to do? Okay. Chant the names of all the people in the class? OK. Remind me of .

[22:34]

We have the searcher cards here? OK. So just before we do that, we'll chant the names one more time for Bill. But actually, don't have to worry, because Deborah's not ready anyway. She's holding the whole show up. Well, you know. Well, maybe I should just concentrate on Deborah and get her to get ready. Are you sure you're not ready? Well, what do you want to hear more that would get you ready? Huh? You want what I hear? Okay. All right, this guy named Fu Gao said, Yun Men's answer has provoked conscious feelings in many people.

[23:43]

His answer has evoked human feelings that people are conscious of. And Won Sung, the commentator, says, he uses conscious feelings to get rid of conscious feelings. If he did not help people in a great way, he would be unable to assist. It's kind of a fun way of talking. I wish I had a better translation. Did that make sense to people? About if he did not help people in a great way, he would be unable to assist. I puzzled about it, and the only sense that I could make of it is that that's the only kind of real help. That the help has to be really enormous.

[24:58]

In order to be even of assistance. See of assistance. Yeah. It's also a conscious feeling, but actually another way of saying thoughts. Uh-huh. So in fact, you know, using thoughts, free us from thoughts. Mm-hmm. It's a great prune, also a great shattering. Yeah. So part of what we're doing here is, in the Blue Cliff record, there's a story about Yun Man, and the commentator in that collection says that people like Yun Man are only concerned with melting the glue and knocking out the wedges. So here they're referring to that quote about the activity of yin and yang. What's a wedge? A wedge is something kind of stuck, wedged in, blocking something.

[26:02]

They use it in construction. When you're putting wood together, you put a wedge in. And he talks about sometimes using a paint to knock out another paint. Right. So this part of what's going on here, some people are looking at this story and they think that yin-men, as opposed to melting glue, is bringing glue. Instead of knocking out wedges, it's putting wedges in. He's saying this Mount Sumeru thing. Apparently, back in China, people got upset about this. When he said Mount Sumeru, they had some kind of feeling about this. Maybe Mount Sumeru meant something different back in the Tang Dynasty than it means now. Certainly, Buddhists are more familiar with the the cosmological significance of Mount Sumeru.

[27:07]

Mount Sumeru is at the center of the universe in the Buddhist cosmology. It's also sometimes called the polar or axle mountain. So I'm not sure exactly what feelings come up for a Buddhist in those days when they heard about Mount Sumeru, but apparently part of what's going on here is some kind of, something's been provoked by this, there's some provocative thing about this particular statement that they're playing with here. Yeah. It's all about the trap of liberation, liberation traps. Is it all about that? Yeah. Yeah. It says in the introduction, it says when you man responds to, is it or is it not, with one thing. It seems like that's how this got back at 18.

[28:09]

Sonia? When I read this line, When he uses conscious feelings to get rid of conscious feelings, what occurred to me is this idea of reflected listening. And I wondered where you sort of reflect back what's being seen so that one can see themself more clearly or hear... You mean when you're listening to somebody? And you listen to them and you reflect back what you heard? Mm-hmm. That's what you mean? Mm-hmm. In some way they understand or see these... their actions and movements. And you're wondering if in Mount Sumeru is that kind of listening?

[29:10]

Reflective listening? If this is what yin and yang is, what... It appears to be a method or a way of interacting as he uses conscious feelings to get rid of conscious feelings, that when you can notice it, people also become maybe less attached. Right. That's what the commentator is saying, right? He's saying that Yim Min is using the conscious feelings of his students to release them from conscious feelings. Right. And then if that doesn't happen, it provokes even more conscious feelings to the point that it is worthless for these people unless they understand that that's what is happening. This section very much provides a link with Jojo's dog for me.

[30:19]

What? Because... Did you say Jojo's dog? Yeah. Because I get the feeling that this Mount Sumeru, according to the commentator, is a worthless thing. What? It's completely worthless. What's worthless? Mount Sumeru. Unless you're... You're freeing yourself. It causes problems. Hugo says, the Inman's answer has provoked conscious feelings in many people. These people already had conscious feelings and were disturbed by this thing. But him saying this, if they didn't get it, then it did not help in a great way. Yeah. Therefore, it was unable to assist. Yeah. It's a... Great.

[31:23]

Well, don't worry. Don't worry. It points out that, in fact, after this happened, then many people who followed, millions of Zen students, were able to use this or not. And if they weren't able to use it, it was useless. So I guess the question is, is it going to be useless for us? And are we going to go to case 20? What do you think would be the modern-day equivalent of . Grand Canyon? Yeah, Grand Canyon. Thelma and Louise are waiting for you.

[32:26]

Twin Peaks. Did you? Huh? Yes. The universe? Maybe. Maybe the universe. That's a good question. What's the mind of the equivalent of if we're not producing a single thought, is there any fault or not? That's the mildest thing to say. Somebody has to ask the question, though, I think. Is anybody interested in that question? Is there somebody who's interested in that question?

[33:30]

Hear it? For the people shaking their head, they're interested. They're the ones? There just aren't very many people who can ask it. Does anybody of those who are interested want to ask the question? When not producing a single... Wait a second, I have a question, yes or no, first of all. You want to ask the question? Okay. Anybody want to answer his question for him? Okay. Okay. No. Okay, somebody else ready to ask, and then whoever wants to answer.

[34:36]

Only one person can ask? I'll ask. When not producing a single thought, is there any or not? I would say, what's the problem with not producing a single thought? Would that work for you, Wes? To promote more conscious feeling. produces a single thought there any fault on dogs

[35:47]

OK, so for you people here gathered together out here at Green Gulch Farm this evening, how does the first part play into your life? Or in other words, how does not producing a single thought, how is that doing? How is that in your life? I pray for that. You pray for it. Do you notice it in between your thoughts? I'm not producing a single thought, it's the thought itself. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Speak for yourself. Please, I'd like to hear from you about this business.

[37:32]

A rare jewel. A rare jewel. Pardon? Impossible. Impossible. Spaciousness and freedom. Spaciousness and freedom. How does... I... See, I'm kind of asking you, tell me how it is for you. Okay? Not so much talk about it. Tell me how it is for you in your life. So, impossible is more the kind of thing, or yes sir every day, or I pray for it, or... You mean you've actually... Yeah, or... Never seen it. Never seen it? I think about it all the time. Think about it all the time, do you? I give myself a hard time about not being able to do it.

[38:34]

You do? That's true. You do. Sickness. Zen sickness? What do you mean? Wait a second. Maybe we're thinking about it all the time. Is that a symptom of Zen sickness? No. Zen sickness is when you have it and you hold on to it. I'm not asking you now about your attachments for freedom or passing through it. I want to know about it. So I'm not asking you about, like, you know, I'm asking you about, like, Olympic gold medal in figure skating, okay? What does that have to do with your, and you're all figure skaters, right? You're all figure skaters, and I'm asking you about Olympic gold medal in figure skating, all right? Do you understand? I'm not asking you how you don't get caught by that. Is that clear what I'm asking you?

[39:39]

Yes? Do you understand, Maryam? Dossi, do you understand? Maryam, please explain. So I'm not asking you whether you're caught by it or not. I'm asking you how about the Olympic gold medal in Zazen or in meditation or in, you know, being aware of the nature of your thought. That's what I'm asking you about. Okay? That clear? And so, like, praying for it, thinking about it all the time, saying it's impossibly elusive, saying it's impossible, saying I beat myself up for not realizing it. These are kinds of ways of talking about, this is an actual state, right? I mean, not an actual state, it's a state. I want to know about how that is in your life. It's healing. It's healing? Lost in the moment.

[40:47]

Lost in the moment. I try to sneak up on it. Sneak up on it. Yes. It sneaks up on me and I'm bound in the moment. Sneak up and you're bound in the moment. I don't get into it. So, again, I would like to know how this is in your life, okay? Including it... You know, this is either your friend, so please, don't worry. You know, it's in a certain place. In a certain place, okay. What is the nature of your thoughts?

[41:53]

Pardon? You said, what is the nature of your thoughts? Well, I don't know if I said that, but if I did, I want to know, what does this thing have to do with your life, your daily life? I'll get back to you on that, okay? Anything else about this state? Practice. Pardon? Practice. Practice. Now, for the people who haven't spoken, what do you have to say? It's a rare currency model. It's a rare occurrence in your life? You mean it happens once in a while? Yes. I'm kind of stuck on producing, the idea of producing.

[43:01]

So there's someone or some agent of production that the single thought isn't about. But that actually there's an agent or something separate from the thought. So you have a problem with this sentence? No, I don't have a problem with the sentence, just that for me it's whether or not I'm producing. Thoughts are fine in my life. But if I'm producing them, it might seem to be... Right, but it doesn't say you produce a thought. No, I know that. When not producing a thought. when you know in other words when the universe isn't producing a thought. Right. So do you have a problem with that too? Well I'm just saying that thoughts are like bubbles. Right. But if they're being produced, if there's some cause and effect, or there's some kind of agent, or some separation from that thought,

[44:09]

If there's something else, I'll leave you. If there's something other than a thought? It feels like that's where the problem slips in. Pain slips in. When we talk about not producing a thought, is it fair to think of it in the traditional terms of Buddhism of Samadhi. I think that I get the impression that some people are talking about a Buddhist idea of Samadhi when they talk about this, and other people aren't referring to that at all in their discussion. Let's see, Samadhi is God in the state of not producing the simple thought. Yeah, so I'm thinking about that. Samadhi. No, you don't have to think of this as a samadhi.

[45:17]

You could. You could think of it as samadhi, but this is more like... Another way to say this is... Well, another way to say this is not another way to say this, but just as something to say, and that is... There always, it always is the case, it always is the case, it never stops being the case that not a single thought is produced. That's always happening. Okay? There's always, every moment it is the case that not a single thought is being produced. Is that okay? Any problems with that?

[46:19]

And yet it's not false or it's not wrong for Sonya to say it's rare and Misha to say something like, what did you say, it's rare? Very rare. What I think they mean by that is they rarely appreciate that or something like that. Isn't that what you mean? That's what I guess you mean. You rarely appreciate... that there's not a single thought produced. That not a single thought produced is the way it really is. Well, no, it's not the way it really is exactly. It's just the way, it's the way you could say ultimately it's the way it is, or that's the way it is all the time. It's always the case that not a single thought is produced. But it's also always the case that there's an illusion of something being produced.

[47:27]

There's constantly the illusion that something's being produced, and there is constantly the fact that nothing is produced. The disillusion that you're talking about speaks to what Lou was talking about, the cause and effect of thought actually being produced by cause and effect. I thought that was a very interesting function. Is the case that you're talking about now, where thoughts always appear to be being produced, is that cause and effect, which is being witnessed to? Does that cause an effect? Yes, it is also causing an effect that thoughts are not produced. That's also causing an effect. How is that? How is it causing an effect? Let's see.

[48:29]

How is it causing it? I'm not saying that, I won't say that it is cause and effect. I will say that it is dependently co-produced, that not a single thought being produced, that is dependently co-produced, which is not to say that it's cause and effect, not the same as cause and effect. It is the nature of cause and effect. And the nature of cause and effect itself is dependently co-produced, because it is the nature of dependent co-production, therefore it is dependently co-produced. But the appearance of thoughts is also dependently co-produced, but what is co-produced in that case is the appearance of a thought. And there is always the appearance of thoughts, too, which don't exist.

[49:34]

But there is also not a single thought produced all the time. So in one sense when we hear this, we think of some great yogic state where you actually are able to realize that not a single thought is produced. And in that realization, it's easy to get stuck and for there to be a fault. Even though nobody made it happen, the realization of the way things already are is called the light. And if you then camp out at all to that, This is called sickness. So this monk is saying, is it a fault? Is this state a fault or not? And in fact, the state is not a fault, and it's also not not a fault. The state isn't. It's just your relationship to it.

[50:38]

So right now, is not a single thought produced right now, is that a fault or not? If you think that it's separate from you, then you think it's separate from you. Then you're involved in thoughts about this thing. If you think it's not separate from you, you're involved in thoughts about this thing. If you don't have any thoughts about it, that's what it is. If you camp out in not having any thoughts about it, That's sin sickness. What about Mount Sumeru? Do you see? Now we can talk about Mount Sumeru. So that's why I said I'll get back to you, Grace, because for your heart's desire, I'm not so sure which heart it is that desires the fact that nothing's produced.

[51:49]

We certainly, that's part of our life, definitely, that the fact that ultimately nothing happens. And also, some of us, another part of our heart, we have another heart which would like certain thoughts to be produced. Some people have a heart desire for a certain thought like the thought of a certain person is what we want to have produced. Some other person or us being a certain person, you have that thought. That's somebody's heart's desire. Somebody else's heart's desire is this unborn thought. But what's Mount Sumeru about then? And why does this monk ask the question about fault or not fault? So, in one sense, we're talking about some great yogic state.

[52:53]

In another sense, we're talking about something that you don't have any relationship to. And how do you have not a relationship with it? Not relationship is not the opposite of having a relationship. It's really a free relationship. How do we have this good relationship? And then in London says Mount Sumeru. So you have this thing, which is really the way it always is, and how about that, he says. Is that a fault or not a fault? Or what's a proper relationship to this thing? And Yuen Mun says it's Matsumaru business, which causes this human being, which provokes something feeling in this human being, Matsumaru.

[53:58]

Matsumaru volcano? Well, it's more, it's not volcanic, but, you know, you could have some volcanoes in it if you want to. Matsumaru's got a lot of... That's fine. and that can give you some kind of feeling or some kind of emotion. The point is, he says this thing, Montsumero, and people have all these responses, these assessments plus a lot of other stuff. Anyway, what's his response to this question about the ultimate status of our thoughts? His response is Montsumero. Emptiness. Emptiness of what? Every time you say not now, I'm answering it. Well, the thought themselves are sort of, and he said you've got to come forth, almost like a mountain.

[55:07]

You've got to ask this mountainous question in order to kind of shatter it. And I sense a generous feeling in this answer of, of him himself being this mountain, the question, the monk. It's just very generous gesture of both parts. It's just being this big question, the big thought, this, you know, stand up, say it. Come forth like a mountain. Because we belong deep, deep. I found it. It's a courageous question. Courageous question, and then what's Yin Man's answer to that courageous question? It's a mirror to that question. In the past, in hearing stories or reading stories of Yun Men, I noticed with him in particular that his... looked at his responses, the things he said, often go three ways.

[56:34]

They simultaneously respond directly to the question and respond to the asker of the question or characterize the asker of the question and the asker of the question, a direct response to the question, and also an esoteric response to the question. So it's very interesting sometimes to look at his responses as functioning that way three ways at once. But it's very difficult to characterize it in that way. So when I come to a story of Yan Mun responding to someone and the monk comes forward and says this, then I just try to look at it as Yan Mun simultaneously characterizing the monk, characterizing the question, and directly responding.

[57:49]

And in this case, that's Mount Sumeru. See, it's as if Mount Sumeru manifests immediately before him in this moment. Part of me. I kind of feel like there's a certain... You know, excuse me, but could you move so I can kind of see your body?

[58:57]

Maybe move over to the other side. Would that be all right? Just sit over there next to Brian, maybe. You're the only person I can't see, sort of. I feel a little bit like, unexpectedly, that this koan can provide a kind of initiation of all of us into a kind of meditation in daily life. that on one side there's this reality, there's the way things really are, which has great usefulness to us, and the way things really are can be stated in terms of our mind. and turn our mind as not a single thought arises or is produced, and that actually everybody in this room may be able to dare to be concerned with such a situation, that you all can actually tonight consider

[60:36]

the ultimate nature of your mind. You can consider it right now, this evening. And you can also feel that there's some courage in you, some courage and competence that you can think about such things. that they're not like for some other people to talk about. You can actually think about ultimate reality, and if you do that, you have confidence and courage, And in addition to that, this story says or can initiate us into taking a step beyond that.

[62:03]

and bringing it back into daily life so that the ultimate nature of our mind, not even that thought is produced, is reflected in whatever your daily life is, in your conscious feelings, But first of all, it seems like we could start by first of all recognizing that you are a person, each of us is a person, who can consider the ultimate nature of mind, that you allow yourself to do that, and that allows you then to also have it reflected in whatever's happening in your daily life. And vice versa, no matter what's happening in your daily life, you can consider this ultimate nature of what's happening, namely that it's not happening.

[63:20]

So I'm saying all that with a feeling that there can be that kind of a group feeling here. And again, I say, if there's any bystanders who don't agree, please come forward. Yeah. I just had a quick question. I'm wondering if it requires that you not producing a single thought. And we could, if you said the question, if I am just in myself, is there any fault or not?

[64:41]

As I apply it to my daily life, can I just be or acting or? You can say that. That's fine. But the equivalent would be, in the context of this case, if you understood, if we all understand that when you say, if I'm just myself, that that is the way we understand what that means is that not a single thought is produced. If that's what you mean by to be myself, then you can just substitute that. And in fact, once we say not a single thought is produced, then you say that means just to be yourself. Just to be yourself means you do not move at all. Right?

[65:50]

However, if we say, okay, when you are just yourself, is there a fault or not? Monsignor. When there's no movement whatsoever, is there a fault or not? Mount Sumeru. But part of what I'm bringing up now is what come out here is that asking that question, not me telling you that, but you asking that question and you being concerned with this and feeling what that's like to ask that question, daring to be a person who's actually spending her time concerned with just being herself, a concern with the mind that does not produce anything, or is not even produced.

[67:02]

And then, either answer the question yourself or ask somebody else and listen to their answer. And when their answer comes, Use it. Okay, let's go on here and read some more of this story here. Mount Samaria cannot be covered by the sky. Earth cannot support it. Wind blowing cannot enter. Water poured cannot wet it. Only the diamond eye can see through it at a glance. Whereupon one sees seven openings and eight holes and straightaway finds that it's shattered into smithereens.

[68:09]

Then, after that, it's on the eyebrows and eyelashes, solitary and beyond transcendence, lofty, steep, and magnificent. So this Mount Sumeru cannot be covered by the sky and so on.

[69:22]

Only the diamond eye can see through it at a glance. So what's it like to see through Mount Sumeru at a glance? What's it like to see through that at a glance? I shouldn't say what it's like. Not to a marrow, it fills the universe. Even a thousand arms thousand armed great compassionate one cannot see through it. If you know on your own how to ride on an ox backward, you'll never stick to the following, you'll never stick to following people all your life.

[70:34]

Yes? Why does it have seven openings? Why does one see seven openings? And eight holes? And eight holes. I do not know. I think the seven openings are sensory orifices. You think so? That's very possible. It's typical in Chinese to say, to put two numbers together when you just mean you see many. You see seven openings and eight holes, symphonies. It means you see all kinds of openings and holes and it shatters to smithereens. That's a typical way to express that idea in Chinese. Well, anyway, what's this about seeing through Monsonero now and smashing it to smithereens? Smashing it?

[71:39]

Shattering it into smithereens. What does it mean to shatter Mount Sumeru? To realize the co-dependent origination of it. Pardon? To realize co-dependent origination? To realize dependent co-arising? Michael was talking about the mirror. Like those magic mirrors that they have in supermarkets, you know, that they can see what everybody's doing, but you can't see through the mirror. The censer does not hold. But there isn't even any mountain mountain. Right, there isn't even a mountain mountain.

[72:40]

But we already knew there wasn't a Mount Samarro, and then we had a Mount Samarro, and now we don't have a Mount Samarro again. And I think that the image of the seven orifices and eight holes is... is an image of the human being, and seeing through that way, then it is shattered. What occurred to me is that there was The shattering of the conventional version of the conventional way of looking at or relating the relationship and that to see each other.

[73:54]

seven openings in April, a place breaking through to the sea with no eyes or cities beyond seeing. It wasn't just the seven, but it opened into another. And then to shatter it was to shatter the universe. Did you close this or open this? I opened this. Could you open a little bit more? Doctor, I have to do a work.

[75:09]

I understand the sound of both of them, so we think that they are operational. I think it's another way to count, and it doesn't reflect just the sensory orifices. I think it has to do with all of the openings of the human body. And one way of counting them up, you count to eight. Could it be that this mount, similar to Yano, this ultimate reality, cannot be penetrated by the phenomenal nature, cannot be penetrated by the blowing, or by the pouring, and where you would much support the earth, that until you see it with the diamond eye, realizing emptiness, then all sort of veils of this phenomenal nature fall away and we realize the true reality is being like first there's a mountain, then no mountain, then there is.

[76:17]

Because it says that it's back again at the end, beyond transcendence, lofty, steep magnificence. The ultimate and the relative absolute. Well, I'm reading this commentary just, you know, basically to see if people can stay with it. to stay with what we already realized earlier in the class. So I just wanted to make that clear, that's why I'm doing this. Okay? And it's hard for me to... I have trouble carrying on certain kinds of conversations

[77:23]

while kind of like trying to remember what the whole point of this class is, you know, and that I have that problem, so maybe some of you do, too. So it's not that I, well, sometimes it might be, but it's not so much that I don't have the intellectual ability to follow some of the things that have recently been said, but... I'm ambivalent about giving up the light or the inspiration, which I felt earlier. among this. And it shows my difficulty in staying with it while certain kinds of questions were being brought up shows how difficult it is then to carry this out of the classroom into daily life.

[78:25]

It's not so easy. Even if people aren't asking questions directly about this story. So while people are talking about the problems of daily life, it's hard to remember that the thought is not being produced. It's hard to enter into a conversation and remember that, be concerned with that, without then holding on to it and fighting ordinary conversation. Right? So I was having trouble doing that. And I was having trouble, you know, I was having trouble seeing Mount Sumeru on the tip of every little thing that came up. I don't know if you follow what I'm saying. So this just shows how hard it is to stay, in a sense, with the meditation or the samadhi,

[79:33]

of dependent co-arising. The samadhi of not a single thought is produced. And then is there a fault in that? And in a way there is a fault in it, in that I don't know how to then have a conversation. without kind of forgetting about what I really care about in all conversations. That's a very important part of what I care about. It's kind of like you're saying that conversations outside... No, I'm saying conversations are not similar. Every conversation can be Mount Sinrao. Is Mount Sinrao Mount Sinrao?

[80:50]

Well, I guess I would say it is. Every little bit of conversation is Mount Sinrao. And so I guess what's hard is to return, keep returning to awareness of the dependent core arising, to meditate on so intensely that everything that anybody says I see at Mount Sumeru confronting me and rewarding me with my meditation. But it's hard to stay that close to the dependently co-arisen state where now the thought is produced. Because when I'm meditating on dependent co-arising, when I'm meditating on how everything appears, I see that there isn't the thought produced. But it's hard to stay with that and not move away from that out into Mata Sunera and get caught by it and lose track of how I

[82:03]

first recognized it as a great mountain. So I was hoping that we could, you know, realize that meditation and carry it forward. But then I had trouble doing it myself right in the class. What got in the way? I think I just lost track of my meditation practice. I think I got turned about in a stream of words. which reminds me of Case 18. In one of the books of Thich Nhat Hanh, he says, what is a true self?

[83:10]

A true self is a self made up of non-self elements. But perhaps thoughts arising It's part of Monsignor. Thoughts arising are part of Monsignor? Yeah. Thoughts arising are Monsignor. Monsignor is thoughts. When you say Monsignor, it's a thought. And then you have some response to that, too. Right? Yes. Are each one of us Monsignorians? Well, no, I don't. I mean, well, each tiny part of us is not similar. Each, you know, tiny aspect or each tiny experience that we have can be not similar. Everything that appears to the mind of

[84:19]

of this monk in Mount Samaria, according to Yuen Mun. And he was that. He said that. I think that's true, too. What? Mount Samaria? No. Okay, what time is it? Nine? Nine. Well, there's a verse coming up here. Well, I hate to spend any more time on this case. Let's read the verse together.

[85:29]

Okay. Not producing a single thought beyond the manner of the only is given to the teaching that's the energy of intent. It can come with acceptance, and it imparts with both hands. If you remind diving, it's so highly capable. The blue ocean fly, the white clouds are peaceful. Don't put so much as it's a tip of the hair in there. What? In the confusion is kind of funny, isn't it? We gave up confusion. Anyway, you know the story this is referring to?

[86:53]

So there's this guy who was trying to escape. He was in trouble. He was trying to escape from a certain kingdom. And in China and Japan, in the old days, there weren't very many roads, so if you wanted to travel alone, you sometimes had to use the public roads in order to get... out of a certain area where there's mountains in your way, right? And then often they'd have these little toll gates or whatever, right, these passes. So this is a pass. This one particular pass, they would open it when the, at dawn, when the crow, when the rooster crowed. So this one guy was traveling along, and he had some part of his entourage that was afraid to imitate the cock crowing, and he imitated the cock crowing, and the chickens all started making noise, and the gate opened, and he got out.

[87:55]

Okay? Like he's saying here, what Ken Tong is saying is that a fake crow will not fool me. And you can't get through unless you really understand. And also, the other part is above it says, if you come with acceptance, be in parts with both hands. Or, you know, in parts with both hands, in other words, you'll get, you could also say you get a double gift if you come with acceptance. And if you go on doubting, it's so high you can't get a hold. So I guess we have a little bit more to work on in this case, but kind of your homework is to think about whether you have any doubts about this or acceptance of this.

[89:08]

What is it doubt about? The ultimate nature of mind. How do you consider that? So what does it mean to doubt the ultimate nature of mind? Or turn it the other way around. Rather than talk about what is doubt, what does it mean to accept the ultimate nature of mind? Yeah, what does it mean to accept the ultimate nature of mind? Well, you just do, but you don't know what it means. Well, so what does it mean? Is the meaning of it for you that you just do it? Is that the meaning of it? It has no meaning?

[90:16]

Your acceptance of it has no meaning? I think it's a positive. This is for me to accept that. I just accept that. Or is the meaning of it then that it's something positive for you? Is that the meaning of it? Does meaning have any issue for you at all in your life? Well, I said something about doubting and acceptance, so what does acceptance mean?

[91:24]

What does it mean? Can you accept the ultimate nature of mind? I mean, what does it mean to accept the ultimate nature of mind? Does it mean anything? I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't, but I don't know what it means to accept the ultimate nature of mind. Except I do know what it means. To accept the ultimate nature of mind means that you accept the non-ultimate nature of mind. Because you can't say, accept the ultimate nature of mind, it's already... You can say whatever you want, accept, not accept. The way you demonstrate your acceptance of the ultimate nature of mind It's by how you deal with the relative nature of mind. And what's the relative nature of mind? Huh? Hello? I don't know. Do you want me to tell you? Well, I just did. Did you see what I did?

[92:27]

I answered your question. Did you see it? That was an example of the relative nature of mind. Did you see it? Didn't see anything? See that? No? You don't see this? That's what it did, yeah. Do you see the hand? That's the relative nature of the mind. Do you understand? What do you understand? Well, I understand dependent colitis. What is it? Well, there's no inherent nature of it. There's no independent inherent nature. That's right, but how do you understand that?

[93:31]

How do you understand it? You just said a teaching, so how do you understand it? Do you understand that teaching? You said you did. So how do you understand it? Show us. That's the nearest thing, the same thing again now. The fact that you can't answer my question other than saying the same thing over and over is what's called doubt. In other words, all you're able to do is say the teaching back to me over and over. That's doubt. An acceptance of a teaching would be that you would be able to actually, you know, show it by whatever you did, rather than talking about something.

[94:49]

In other words, by your, what do you call it, your relative state. How would you answer the question? Ask me the question. about how do you know about why do you know A is not A? How do I know A is A? How would you respond to the question you asked me about the Pentecost? What was my question to you? Do you know my question? I asked you if you understood the Pentecost, I think. Okay.

[95:52]

Ask me. I'm lost. You're lost? I'm lost. Okay. Is that a relative state that you have there? That being lost? Relative. Huh? Yeah. Okay. That's a relative state right there. You got one right there now. Do you feel it? See how that feels? Hmm? I feel like I can't really think right now. Right, that's your state. Yeah. How did that feel? Can you feel how that feels? Yeah. Okay. Probably some other people understand, right? They can tell. See, that's a relative state that you're in. So what is acceptance in that case?

[96:54]

It's just acceptance, though. To accept that that's what it is? Right, uh-huh. And not to hang on to it. And not to hang on to it, right. And what would doubting be, do you think? Doubting what? Yeah, it says, yeah, so acceptance is to accept that state. And what would doubting be? Okay, but what would doubting be like? Anybody know what doubting would be like? Succulent. Succulent. Confusion.

[97:54]

Well, you're confused, aren't you? Huh? You think...

[98:02]

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