I'd like to sing the song of this practice period. At the beginning again, wall gazing, in the back, a spring flower opens. This could also be called the national anthem of Soto Zen. Even though this song was originally sung by a Rinzai Zen master, Tōrei, the Dharma son of the great bug-eyed Hakowin Zenji,

[01:03]

This flower, this spring flower, I would say this spring flower is the flower of compassion in daily life. Wall-gazing, in the back, the flower of compassion in daily life opens. the heart, Buddha's heart, Buddha's mind opens in the back at the time of wall gazing. When there is wall gazing in the back the flower of Buddha's compassion, the flower of Buddha's heart opens. I cannot open my own heart. I may want to and

[02:17]

at the basis of the practice of wall-gazing. The seed of the practice of wall-gazing is the desire to open the heart, to open Buddha's heart through this body and mind. That is our hope, that is our desire, that is our aspiration. But I cannot do this myself. Any way I try to do that, either causes a closing or tears at the flower. But if there is wall gazing, there is no manipulation of this flower. There is no pulling it open too soon or too late. Wall gazing allows the flower to open here. That's my faith Wall-gazing means total, radical self-emptying.

[03:24]

It means sitting or standing, working and talking and living completely free of any idea you have of what you're doing. That's what we mean by wall-gazing. And this way of living, completely free of all ideas of the way of living, this allows compassion to bloom. This allows supreme, perfect enlightenment to be actualized in our daily life. There is a teaching called the teaching of no-self or non-self.

[04:41]

In Sanskrit it's called the teaching of anatman. Atman means self, and anatman means sort of like no-self or non-self. This is the same teaching as... Tore Zenji's poem is the same teaching of non-self. Wall-gazing is non-self. And I guess I can repeat, if you allow me, one more time that no self does not mean there is not a self. Anatman does not mean there is no self or that you get rid of the self. It means that in the field of the human psyche, in the human psychophysical field, which is the same as to say in the field of our moment-by-moment experience, if there is knowledge, in that field, in that psychic field, a sense of self arises.

[05:59]

This is a natural aspect of a normal human being. And as soon as that sense of self arises, also four types of affliction co-arise with it. The affliction called self-affliction, ignorance, which means the sense of self arises, the sense of identity always arises in the human psyche, and with that sense of identity, with that sense of I, there arises an ignorance of I, an ignoring, an ignoring of I, a turning away from seeing what I is. And therefore, the other reflection also exists, namely the self-view or the belief, the philosophical beliefs, belief that there really is something there to that I, that there's something to it, and it really is there.

[07:28]

If there is observation of the I, there is not self-ignorance, and if there's observation of the I, it will not be possible to maintain the position that there is something there called the I, including it will not be possible to maintain the position that there isn't something there called the I. No fixed view will be able to be held about what this identity is if it is subject to awareness or to search, if you search for it. And also co-arising with self-ignorance and self-view or belief in self, belief in the existence of the self, or belief that the self belongs to some category of existence, like it is, there is one, or there isn't one, or maybe there's both, or maybe there's neither. All those categories you can imagine are what are called self-view.

[08:38]

And co-arising with that is love of the self and pride of the self. Pride of the self is impossible to avoid it arising in every moment because in the universe, if there's anything worth being proud of, it's the identity of a living being because it's fantastically wonderful that there's a living being that is aware of something and knows something. So if there's any basis or any reason for pride, this is a good reason. However, this pride must be overcome because this pride, although it's justified in a way, is an affliction. And this pride is based on the belief that there's something there called the I, that there is an identity. Wall gazing is the antidote to these four afflictions.

[09:43]

when there is wall gazing, these afflictions still arise right there. These four afflictions still arise. Even in the practice of wall gazing, they arise. But they lose their efficacy. Because wall gazing is total self-emptying, And the emptied self allows no foothold for self-ignorance or self-view and therefore for self-pride and self-love. And when the afflictions have no foothold and there's just the psyche with a sense of self, then this being is naturally compassionate. especially this being as naturally compassionate, because in order to practice wall gazing, you must first be practicing wall gazing with the aspiration of compassion.

[11:04]

In fact, you cannot successfully practice wall gazing except with the seed of compassion. Once the seed of compassion is installed in the moment of wall-gazing, the afflictions to this compassion drop away and this seed blooms. So wall-gazing is radical self-emptying. Self-emptying leads naturally, spontaneously, non-manipulatively to supreme perfect enlightenment being realized, actualized in daily life as this flower of compassion. That's my proposal to you, which I've been making for the last three weeks. And I summarize again at the beginning. I also read something the other day where someone said

[12:14]

I'll just read what the person said. He said, this radical, this emptying process and identification... Well, first of all, with self-emptying, we say that the practitioner sees just what is. There is that kind of language. But that language is tricky because it isn't that there's an observer over here which sees over there what's happening. It's not that kind of seeing. It's non-dualistic seeing. So it's not looking out your eyes and seeing over there what is. It is seeing from over there back this way too. Seeing in both directions at once. It's arrow points meeting in mid-air. It's that kind of seeing. That kind of seeing is seeing the way things are, just what is.

[13:17]

And then this person said, there is then an identification with what is, with suchness. But I don't really think identification is quite right. I would say that the identity of the living being, it is not that the identity of the living being is identified with suchness. It is that the identity of the living being is neither identified with suchness nor separate from it or different from it. The identity of the living being walks, circumambulates suchness and also sits at the middle of suchness simultaneously, both at once. Not identified with or separate from.

[14:21]

Not the same as or different from suchness. Which is quite similar to say not the same as Buddha, not identifying with Buddha, or separate from Buddha. Neither of those. But always walking around Buddha. always in close relationship to Buddha without identifying or grasping it. Or we say, always being close to Buddha, walking around Buddha, keeping in close contact with Buddha, but not taking it personally, or not taking it too personally. A close relationship, a non-separate relationship with no possessiveness, This is called wall gazing. When you're practicing wall gazing, you are as stupid as Bodhidharma and Buddha and Suzuki Roshi.

[15:27]

You're not different from them. You're not different from them. They are right there. And you're not the same as them. You're different. You're you. They don't want to be you. You don't want to be them. Okay, now I want to talk about some stuff that's a little bit kinky, so excuse me. Now, there are some tough edges here. I told you this. No, I didn't tell you before. Anyway... Okay, I'm... I don't know if I can hold on to my seat, but that's what I'm going to try to do. And then while I'm doing that, I'm going to... This is daily life now, okay? We're now in daily life.

[16:30]

It's daily life at this place, which is a little bit unusual daily life, right? People sitting cross-legged and so on. But imagine now we're in daily life and I'm trying to... I'm trying to live the life, the life of time, the life of when, the life of war-gazing, and talk about some things I'm concerned about. Because I have made the Bodhisattva vow to save all sentient beings, I want to express to you some of my concerns. simultaneously while I express my concerns, I try not to get carried away by my concerns. Because while I talk about my concerns, I know things, I think things, and my self arises and so do those afflictions. So constantly the four afflictions are arising with me, with the me here talking to you.

[17:34]

I'm being harassed by them constantly as I talk to you. and I propose that you are being harassed by them while you listen to me. So in this situation now, I talk about a little bit different way. I want to say several things. One is I want to say that I've seen, I'm not saying it always happens this way, but I've seen and I've heard about something like this. A friend of mine went to Peru She's a kind of, she's half gypsy and half, her mother's kind of like a Greek gypsy and her father is a Nordic mathematician. So she straddles those two worlds and she lived with us for a while and then she went to Peru.

[18:41]

And she somehow got into the inner shamanic circles in Peru. They let her in. And she went to this meeting one time. And in this meeting, she said something like, he went into this room, he went into this room and there was these guys, these Peruvian men running around, real grumpy guys. grumpy, kind of feisty, uptight, kind of stern and intense, telling people, don't sit there, sit there, do this, do that, you know, kind of like, kind of pushy, bossy, rough kind of feeling, you know. Not necessarily your idea of the kind of people you run into in a place where spirits... or Peruvian angel that are going to be tuned in. Okay, so after these guys, these kind of tough, a little bit, and I don't know if the word macho is right, even though it's in the land of macho, or near the land of macho.

[19:52]

These guys are a little bit macho, a little bit macho. I don't know if that's the right word, but something like that. And these guys' activity creates a certain kind of environment where you feel kind of uncomfortable, and you feel like you're running into some material, And then the leader of the event comes in. And another man, but this man is very soft and very sweet. And isn't telling people what to do or what they have to do. And then the lights go off. And then she, I know this is not so important, but anyway, I said what I think is important. Then it just so happens that this big wind came up in the room and she heard the flapping of huge wings. And then this huge thud on this table in front of her, people landing, lots of people landing on the table.

[20:55]

And just the whole room really swirling with wind and the sound of huge flapping wings. And another thing which I've told some people about already, but I want to say again, and that is I see that there's, like, at this Zen Center, we have a kind of a balancing problem between two forms of compassion. One form of compassion is Statue of Liberty style. Send me your teeming masses. What? Yearning to be free. Your such and such refuge on your teeming shore. All of you come, you know.

[21:58]

Come all you people and we give you liberty, you know. How does that song go? Anyway, send me your tired, your poor, your restless, those of you who have trouble sitting still. All of you, come, please, and we give you freedom and liberty here, no matter who you are. Then there's the other side of compassion called Bodhidharma style. And that one you come, and even if you can sit pretty still, he pays no attention to you, and you can't get in very easily. How do we balance these two? And I also want to tell you something. This is a little bit jumping around, but this is what I want to say.

[23:01]

I went to the airport a while ago and I took someone there and we were waiting for time for him to board. and I was sitting next to him talking to him about some things, and nearby I noticed a Japanese family, father and wife, and father and mother, and husband and wife, and two boys, I think boys. One was about eight. He was leaning back in his chair reading magazines and playing with his toys, somewhat independent of his mother. Another one, another child who was about one year old, I think, just learning how to walk. And he was walking around everywhere. And his mother was walking behind him. He would walk this way, she would walk that way. He would walk that way, she would walk that way. Everywhere he went, she went with him. And I was pretty impressed that she just could follow him everywhere like that. And there was no sense of come back here to me, I don't want to follow you.

[24:05]

She was following him everywhere. I wondered, how could she keep that up? Can she keep that up hour after hour, day after day, year after year? Maybe not so many years. Maybe when he's six or seven, she won't have to follow him so much. And you could see part of why she was following him is at any moment he looked like he could fall forward and put his head into something, you know, or hurt himself. But I was really impressed by just the way she went with him wherever. This one-on-oneness really impressed me. I don't remember if I thought of it at the time like, gee, I couldn't do that. I don't know if I thought that exactly, but I was a little bit, at least partially thinking, can I do that? In a way, I can't, actually.

[25:07]

Maybe I can, I don't know. Maybe if I had a baby and there was nobody who was quicker than me to follow it, maybe I would follow it. You know, some people are maybe quicker than me to follow the baby, and if they weren't there, maybe I would sort of somewhat retardedly come after the baby. I don't know. But later it came back to me that actually, excuse me for saying this, but actually... Almost actually. Sort of, anyway. I feel that way about Zen students. Except that they don't... I feel that way when they're not moving. And actually, I can keep that up. I can keep sort of following them. Sort of, they go over there, I go over there. They go over there, they go over there. In other words, in the practice situation, somehow I can see...

[26:08]

somehow I'm more of a mother, I can see my motherly function there more easily than I can maybe with a little baby, with a toddler. I guess I'm just trying to say, I think this one-on-one thing is There's something really fundamental about this one-on-one thing, this face-to-face thing. I propose that this one-on-one thing is the place, is the place and the time when the complete perfect enlightenment is actualized. Yeah.

[27:13]

I think I understand, but I don't want to make assumptions. What do you mean by it's one on one thing? I mean person to person, face to face, like right now we're talking. They're like this kind of situation, literally, like a mother and child, just two people back and forth, a Buddha and a Buddha. That's what I mean, literally. Also, all kinds of metaphors also apply. Now, yesterday I went to a meeting of what's called the Bay Area Consortium on Ethics, and people were talking about this American society. And I'll just preview this.

[28:16]

Basically what I heard them talking about was the difficulty or the endangeredness of one-on-oneness in this society. So I'm kind of feeling like that is the greatest danger, and also that's the greatest possibility, is one-on-oneness. In particular, someone mentioned that the human infant really needs one-on-one contact. If they don't get it, something goes a little off or way off. I knew a woman.

[29:19]

She was a beautiful woman. What was her name? Her name was, ah, got it, ah, forget it. Anyway, she was a beautiful woman. I knew her in high school, and she was an orphan. If you looked at her, you wouldn't think she was an orphan. It never occurred to you. You just think, wow. that woman, but she was an orphan. And I never could, I never, I always had trouble figuring, there was something missing. It's almost like, it was almost like she was on drugs or something or she was an alcoholic or there was some kind of buffer there, not just between me and her, but between her and herself. I propose as a possibility that the main damage of not having one-on-one contact, the main damage, ironically, is that the person, the baby, does not sufficiently develop a sense of self.

[30:22]

Sense of self, which then leads to the afflictions which undermine our natural compassion, but if you don't have a sense of self, you haven't even started to have ordinary human problems. You must, in order to be a bodhisattva, you have to have a sense of self. and the afflictions that arise with it, and the problems that arise with it, so that you are forced, in order to overcome these problems, these obsessions that accompany a sense of identity, you are forced to practice what I'm calling wall-gazing, or you are forced to do the practice of radical self-emptying and therefore realization of enlightenment. Without this sense of self, I propose to you that you spend your entire life looking for it until you find it.

[31:30]

And it's difficult to find it when you're past the first year of your life. Although I think it is possible to find it later, it is particularly difficult to find it afterwards. It's much easier to find it in the first year. And the main way you find it is by one-on-one contact. And the main way you overcome it, overcome the afflictions that arise in conjunction with the sense of self, the main way you overcome it is by one-on-one contact. So the human infant needs one-on-one contact, needs the person looking at them and looking at them, and the person looking at them looks at them, and they can see in the eyes of the person who's looking at them that somebody's there. I mean, that the person who's looking at them sees somebody. definitely sees somebody and the somebody they see is lovable and you can be proud of it.

[32:51]

This is a reflection of something which is automatic in human nature. So the whole spiritual process depends on the formation of this sense of somebody's here and this somebody is really where it's at and it's lovable and worthy of pride. And also, although you don't mention this to yourself, you don't look to see what it is at that age and no one encourages you to either. You don't look at the baby and then say, now turn around and look to see if there's something there. They don't do that to babies. They can't do it anyway. And the babies gradually develop a sense, a belief that there is somebody there through this initial and repetitive contact. This contact leads to the realization of human delusion and suffering and therefore the aspiration to become free of suffering and the aspiration to save all beings is based on the afflictions that coexist with this sense of self.

[34:09]

You cannot give rise to the bodhisattva vow without a sense of self. The bodhisattva vow does not come up out of a kind of a, what do you call it, a psychic field that does not have a sense of self and self-affliction in it. Even a sense of self would not be sufficient to give rise to the bodhisattva vow. You not only need a sense of self arising out of the psychic field, you need these afflictions. With that, you can then generate the magnificent mind of, I want to be happy and I want everyone else to be happy. And then with that mind, you can practice wall-gazing. Or wall-gazing can practice you. in this society okay we have a life space like here we are together mostly this is a life space specially right now i don't know how much life space of human interconnectedness and love and the desire to be happy and help others be happy and free this life space

[35:33]

And the human society which arises out of this life space is, as we all know, under attack by the state and by the market economy. Mothers in America, many mothers, not just many but like maybe more than 50% or something like that, feel because of the market economy oppression over the American family. They feel that they must leave their children and go to work. And again, my figures may be wrong, but I think something like a frighteningly high percentage anyway, to me, of mothers of children under one go to work and leave their children in child care. And the ratio of caregiver to child in child care situations in this state is not one to one.

[36:46]

It's something like eight to one. It's, in other words, not that different from an orphanage. Excuse me, Rabbi. I can't hear you. What you're saying, the way you're saying this, Oh, no. No problem. Okay. Oh, nothing wrong with that. Same way. I'll say it the other way around then. Men are forced to leave their children. I haven't yet... Okay, I haven't yet taken my political position, but... Right. Okay, mothers and fathers are forced to leave their children in child care. Okay? Okay. And in the child care situation, which has some men and women, the ratio of caregivers to children is very low.

[37:52]

I mean, very high. That's my point. So anyway, not only one parent, but both parents have to leave the home. and leave the child, it would be okay, I think, to leave the child with somebody, a one-on-one kind of situation, but they're left with a many-on-one. That's the problem I'm trying to point to. And then from there on, our society has no money to, I shouldn't say have no money, but does not have enough money to encourage people to be dedicated to educating the youth so the youth grow up crippled And there we have it. Now another thing which I wanted, I thought was very interesting, which came out in that meeting was that Adam Smith, the man who wrote The Wealth of Nations, and who taught, and who had, what do you say, he said some things which were, I think, anyway, extremely influential.

[38:58]

And now particularly with this whole East German, Eastern Europe thing happening where it looks a little bit like the communist experiment is, or the capitalist experiment, or Adam Smith anyway, maybe beating up Marx. We don't know. We'll see. But one thing he said was that self-interest is really, you can trust it. enlightened self-interest. Like right now, we often have the experience at Zen Center of seeing that we can't take care of things unless the thing belongs to somebody. If 10 people are supposed to take care of a car, none of them, it not belongs to any of them, it tends not to be taken care of. Our bakery now, which we expanded, we gave over to be taken care of by a board. And people feel like you have to give that bakery somehow to a manager who feels like it's his or hers. Adam Smith says that without self-interest, you just can't really do anything without self-interest.

[40:07]

And the way he put that down, it had a big influence on this world. But one thing, one small point, which very few people realize, is that Adam Smith... 10 years before he wrote The Wealth of Nations. And for 10 years was a professor of moral philosophy. And before that, he was a professor of logic. And while he was a professor of moral philosophy, he wrote a book. which is something about human sentiments. And I believe seven-tenths of the book is about moral psychology. And the last part is about moral philosophy. And the main point of this whole teaching is that the essential thing in moral psychology is the presence of what he calls sympathy.

[41:20]

And sympathy is what we call, literally, is what we call compassion. The concern to enter into it with them and free them of it. That is the moral base upon which enlightened self-interest is supposed to function. But the two books are separated. And almost no one reads... And the first book has had very little influence on capitalism. Enlightened self-interest is based on compassion, in other words, according to him. Yeah, that's another point is that the sympathy and the compassion, that's exactly it.

[42:34]

That the self-interest is what helps you actually bring in the marketplace. You have your capital. What is your capital? your capital is your body, or anything you have a little bit extra besides what you need just to feed yourself. You have a certain amount of energy to survive yourself, and anything extra you have of time or material, anything extra you have there can be used with the guidance of self-interest to benefit all beings. That's what's supposed to lead to a happy society. But we must have this compassion as the base. So with compassion as a base, what does self-interest mean in a Zen center? What is enlightened self-interest here for you?

[43:34]

Well, maybe that's not important. Is there anything any of you want to do? Actually, I see some people are visiting here who I know are doing work outside Zen Center, which they're doing its direct application of their sense of compassion and sympathy for suffering beings. I know some of the people visiting are directly applying that kind of work. So I ask them, well, yeah, I'll ask them now, so maybe a little out of order, but I'll ask them, how is your wall gazing? Is there wall gazing in your work of compassion? Do you agree with me that in order to carry out your compassionate work, you need to be self-emptying to protect your work from yourself?

[45:01]

Yes. Yes. My work, as you know, is a psychotherapist. Right. One is always trying to help oneself, I guess, at least so that you have some sense of vision, of the other. Yeah. You don't empty yourself totally, but you do try not to get in the way of transactions. Yeah, I mean, that was your answer. I think also Archie says to war gaze carried from what she was saying is if you've had a good enough mother who's been gazing at you eventually you maybe realize the limitations of that mothering so that you can gaze at a really good mother who's the wall.

[46:05]

Or you can see that the wall's gazing at you. And she loves you. Even though she doesn't see anything. Somehow that assumption hopefully is present in the room with the person who is gazing in, who is your client, who has been very troubled and who's sort of fractionated by growing up with very incomplete gaze. Which incidentally does not come, in my experience, simply from mothers who work and also comes from mothers and daughters who stay home. Right, right. Staying home does not always guarantee this. Now, is it rude for me to call on some other people, some of the other guests? May I call on, what do you think, Brad? Neil, how do you feel about this?

[47:11]

I miss the work that I do. I do have children. And when I do the kind of work that I do, I sort of break things down into certain knowledge that I do, what I walk and walk with. for the child, the sort of skills that I have to have to respectfully engage that child and their families, and the sort of qualities that I have to have within myself. And it's on that sort of qualities of sort of being able to engage clearly And I think it's most difficult. Because oftentimes, you feel like you know what's best for them, and you want to enforce that.

[48:34]

Because oftentimes, the situation I'm dealing with is one in which a child, a one-year-old, is not being taken care of by a parent. Right. In a way that we would think is appropriate. Right. And the parent isn't their psychological parent. And it isn't demonstrating the kinds of attributes that you would like to see happen. But how do you sort of educate and foster that in some way to allow that attachment to take place, that psychological attachment you were talking about? Right. When that parent might not have had that experience themselves, they have nowhere within themselves to draw it out of. Right. And you know that it can be fostered in some way, but how do you create an environment for that to happen? Right. That's very difficult. This is wonderful because when you're talking to the parents who need to give this to the child, who may have never had it themselves,

[49:38]

You have to create the situation for the parents. If you tell them what they should do and they don't know how to do it, you can't tell them what to do. If they knew how to do it, they'd do it. If they don't know how to do it, you have to teach them. Right. That's the trick. So you practice wall gazing. Right. Right. We don't have a parent college for them. Right. So that our society sort of is abandoned in certain ways, and we don't have forms and institutions that allow that to take place and so on. Right.

[50:39]

So what do we do? Well, we're working on it. Yeah, he's working on it. So again, in the language of Bodhidharma, The school for parents is the school which has you in it and the parents in it. And the practice of the school is wall-gazing. That in the practice of wall-gazing they learn not from you, not from themselves, but from by self-emptying. You self-empty in their presence If they can learn self-emptying from you without you teaching it to them, then their self-emptying will teach them what their parents never taught them. But it's pretty hard to do that, isn't it? But again, I suggest the solution is, what do you call it?

[51:44]

i told you this before this example of this guy who does uh... this child psychologist who does therapy like this with the children he gives them a piece of paper with a circle on it and oftentimes the first thing the kids do with a piece of paper is they rip it up or crumple it up and the diagnosis and the cure in that case are simultaneous. Namely, you say, this kid ripped the paper up. Perfectly good piece of paper with a nice circle on it. This kid's angry. This kid's disturbed. This kid's trying to push my buttons, etc. The doctor diagnoses the kid by the way the kid rips the paper. Does he rip it in one piece or ten pieces? How much energy is in the ripping? You diagnose it according to the ripping. But the ripping is also the first step in the cure. And being with the person who lets them rip it and looks at them and watches them and sees them and loves them, that's also part of the first step of the cure.

[52:56]

Then you give them another piece of paper. And the second piece of paper, they may also crumple. There's another diagnosis and another step in the treatment. And you give them another piece of paper, and then pretty soon they start scribbling, he says, the doctor says they start scribbling, usually outside the circle. And gradually they start writing inside the circle. And gradually they start writing pictures of little ducks and trees and houses and children. Each time they draw a picture, that's the diagnosis. Each time they draw a picture, that's the treatment. So when you're with the parents of the children, they're acting the way they act, that's the diagnosis. And them acting that way, and you act the way you do, that's the diagnosis. That's the diagnosis, that's the cure. That's the diagnosis, that's the cure. Meantime, we keep thinking, well, how do I do it? Am I doing it right or wrong?

[53:56]

All that stuff's happening a mile a minute too, right? Inquiry and response come up together. Inquiry and response come up together, exactly. Or how does it go? I've got my book. Something like, when there's no defilement, the appearance is immediate. When you have no fixed idea about what is helpful, the appearance is immediate. Namely, what is helpful is what is happening. If you've got a parent here that doesn't know how to take care of a child, This immediate appearance is it. That's what you've got to work with. That attitude is called wall-gazing. Anyway, I'd love to hear what Brad has to say, but

[55:03]

I'm more in a situation where it's more of an adversarial situation with the abused and the abusers and those that want to try to interfere in someone's life. So if somebody thinks that he's here in life, self-interest, or views other beings, you know, the goal that walk is and cast for me, it's just more personal, it's not something... I don't know how to articulate what's going on, but I'm just working on it.

[56:16]

Right. You know, Brad's work is... In his case, the abused is various animals, cows, chickens, monkeys, and so on, rats. Those are the abused. And the so-called abusers are scientists, veal farmers, chicken ranchers, and so on. And the interferer is him, sort of. And over the years, he's been working on how to practice wall-gazing under those circumstances. And he's not sure quite, but the situation seems to be adversaries. And these people who are acting in self-interest, the question is always, is their activity really coming from compassion? Now, most people would probably say, I shouldn't say most people, a lot of people at Zen Center would probably say, gee, I don't see what's compassionate about what they're doing here.

[57:23]

It looks like they're just trying to make a buck. That's what most people probably would see. What? Yeah, some of the scientists might say, no, they're really trying to develop information which will help human beings. But even still, as Zen Center people might say, they might not agree. You might become adversarial to them. So under those circumstances, what is wall-gazing? What is the, again, in this case, what is the one-on-one contact? Is it between Brad and the cows, or is it between Brad and the veal farmers? Or is it between Brad and the, or other people that Brad works with, and the government? Who is the one-on-one contact with? I don't know. Maybe we... maybe each one at a time, because when you're practicing wall-gazing, you usually don't sort of like wait until you get to the proper recipient and then start practicing it.

[58:28]

It's one-on-one all the time, each person, rather than saying, well, here's the veal farmer, but I'm not going to... This guy's hopeless. I'm going to work on the government. I'm going to work on the senators and the news people, not on this actual farmer, because he's too difficult. But I guess that's a big part of what I'm talking about is that here at Zen Center, you people are living here, those of you who are living here are not necessarily, do you understand how what you're doing is enacting compassion in daily life? And is it one-on-one? Is each person you meet a one-on-one kind of thing like this where you're kind of like attending to them like that mother in the airport Or do you just wait for actual kids? So like Elisa, you know, back there. Is Elisa back there?

[59:29]

No. Elisa sometimes, you know, if you're at a meeting with her, if I'm at a meeting with her and the people are talking, you know, then she starts talking. She starts making these sounds. So I maybe turn to her because she's making these sounds. It's very easy to hear that she wants a little one-on-one contact because she's giving you one-on-one contact. So you go give it back to her. But are there some people that you run into around here or someplace in the world where actually you don't have an ear which hears that they're calling to you? They're saying, have one-on-one contact with me. Especially when they come up to you and say something real negative. Do you hear that they're calling out and saying, one-on-one contact with me? Not only one-on-one contact, but I want you to interact with me with you having no concept of what is helpful to me or who I am. I want you to be completely free of all ideas.

[60:30]

I want you to practice. I want you to hear me from the place and time of wall gazing. I want you to teach me how to be empty of self. I want you to be empty of self and show me this compassion that is the root of your practice. So just around here, do you, do I, do you, every single person you meet, do you actually see each one of them is calling to you for that kind of contact? I guess I can't see any other way but that myself. I mean, although it seems impossible in a way, logically I can't see any, it seems like that must be the way it is.

[61:31]

How do you do it? Or do you just try to do wall gazing without making an effort? The way you live in your life changes that way. But if you make an effort, then you brought something else in. Right. That's it. Right. You practice wall gazing, and if you practice wall gazing, I propose that if you practice wall gazing, there's an ear that opens up behind you that starts to hear that each person wants you to meet them that way.

[62:31]

And all I would say before that is that in order to actually practice wall gazing, you have to have this seed. You have to check, you have to sort of check your channels, and check the channels and say, now are all these channels, at least in my thinking, am I completely open to the possibility of being completely compassionate with every single solitary person? In other words, do I actually, is it all right with me for everybody to be completely enlightened? Do I feel okay about that? And also, do I want that? And actually, am I willing to work for that? And if the answer to all that is yes, that's the basic set, and then you practice wall gazing. And if you practice wall-gazing, you still make an effort because you're making an effort to practice wall-gazing or to let wall-gazing be practiced here. Then your entire life energy is dedicated to wall-gazing. And then, non-manipulatively, you start hearing. Right.

[63:37]

So you don't try to hear, because again, if you try to hear, you try to hear over there or over there, or you try to hear her or hear her. rather than hear the one who's calling, who's meeting you right now. And again, you know, you get tricked by words. People say, and you think, geez, why are you saying that? Rather than, what are you saying? I wonder what you're saying. What are you... Say it again. I didn't quite get it. How is that asking for me to be Buddha? And Russo, you know... My wife is a therapist, and she tells me about, she works in a crisis clinic, and some of the people come in there, I mean, they come in there and like, it's like, boy, I mean, they would fool anybody. No one would think that they're asking for love or asking to be listened to. They sound like they're just simply trying to attack you. How could somebody come in to you and say, just be negative, totally negative towards you and be asking you to help them?

[64:41]

Definitely, yeah, definitely don't seem to know. It's very difficult. That's why, as a matter of fact, it's real hard. So that's why we resort to a radical practice, which is to say that if you can recognize that you're afflicted by these things all the time and you know live with your own crap enough and not run away from it and therefore let wall gazing is realized because of that you're able to do something which is impossible to do as a manipulative act namely to sort of When somebody comes up to you and says these things to you, you actually are not tricked by it. When somebody says words, you understand the source of the words. You're not fooled. But if you try to not be fooled, you're done for.

[65:46]

If you try to understand, you're done for. So we have a more indirect method. Namely, we walk around Buddha all the time. I just wanted to mention that people who act very negatively are only one kind of fooling people. Equally fooling may be more difficult than people who have the opposite kind of action, who are so full of praise and flattery and friendship and calling out for help. They call out for help so much or thank you for help so hard that there's almost no opportunity to provide it. Right. Right. Right. They thank you for help. They say, oh, you're so helpful. And they ask you for help and you give it. And meantime, they're asking you for something which you can't hear because you're totally fooled. And so are they. Because there hasn't been enough one-on-one contact for them to ask for what they really want and for you to hear it.

[66:54]

Yes? Fortunately, we've all got this noble truth in common. Yeah. So there's always that fundamental pain. Right. You need a connection that's readily available. Yes, definitely. Right. Right. And there, too, wall-gazing helps us live with the first truth rather than do something more sophisticated like the second truth. In other words, it's okay to go to the second truth, but don't leave the first one. If you start looking at the second truth, forgetting the first one, the second truth becomes a little too intellectual. But you should go to the second truth. Please go to the second truth. Anyway, there are people, as I say, people visiting here who you can see are right out there in the In the, not exactly in the, some people here are out in the marketplace.

[68:02]

Other people are out in here, out, what do I say, combating the side effects of the market economy attacking the society. the market economy, which says you can't make a living unless you put the calves in these small containers. If you give them more room, you'll starve. That's called, they've been dominated by the market economy. And so some people are sort of trying to repair the damage of people thinking this way. And then the market economy, which has made it difficult for people to take care of their children, then they're working to help those situations. And I see other people too here who I know are working to repair the situation.

[69:07]

And again, each one of them is susceptible to getting caught by their own good works and becoming obsessed with them. So they have to protect themselves from these kinds of outflows with practice. And we here who live here at Green Gulch and practice here more have to protect ourselves here in the same way. but also understand our connection with those people. I think it helps for us anyway to understand our connection to the people who are working so-called out in the marketplace. Yeah. There are two aspects of it. You do not? You mean because you find them real cute? Yeah.

[70:10]

Well, see, you see how it is cute. You see how it is attractive. But I use the example of, you know, I don't know what example I should use, but there's one side of our practice which lets anybody in, literally. There's another side which says, before you come in here, you have to sit tangario. Because if you come in here without sitting tangario, you're going to waste my time and yours. Actually, that's very compassionate. But it looks a lot different from, come on in. We're home. Sorry I didn't know you were coming. I would have baked you a cake. Okay? There's that side. Because sometimes that's right where it's at. Because sometimes people who come... Particularly people, this may sound like a theory, but particularly people who come on their hands and knees with their nose just a little bit or even right down on the ground.

[71:11]

Those people don't have to do tangario. They're doing tangario. They've been initiated. They're so close to the ground. So then you can say, come on in here, have a seat or have a bed. But the people who are walking on all fours, I mean all, who are standing up, you know, and who kind of say, I want to practice Zen. And then you say, well, have you practiced before? And they say, yes, I have. I've said 19 sashins. I have studied many sutras. You know, I've done many compassionate works. These people have to sit Tangario. Bodhidharma did not get these... Bodhidharma, the people who came to him that he made, who he held out, were pretty gifted people. Gifted with what we call the results of wholesome karma. Real healthy.

[72:12]

So I guess it depends on the type of person that comes. Both are compassion. And you're pretty ambulatory, so you like Bodhidharma style. But we have this other style, but I'm also suggesting that the two sides depend on each other because they're giving a sense of the breadth of responsiveness of wall-gazing. But I'm also, again, proposing that wall-gazing is necessary, even in the case where you say, come on in. Have a seat. Wall-gazing must be there too. Because wall-gazing means what protects you from your ideas, from your concepts about what's going on, which will undermine the basic work. And I'm just very touched and very moved by the issue of it's one-on-one kind of thing.

[73:17]

The whole process is all by one-on-one. And when you're alone in the zendo, it's still one-on-one. And as I guess there, the question is, it's which one on which one? What is the one that's on the one in that case? And do you trust that one-on-one there, the wall on you or you on the wall, or the wall on the wall or you on you? Do you trust that as the perfect container, the perfect incubator for the seed of complete perfect enlightenment? Do you trust that? If you don't, I think it'd be good to say so, and we can one-on-one work it out.

[74:23]

Because I think there needs to be some protection. This thought of enlightenment needs some protection. As I think I mentioned last week, somebody said that the thought of enlightenment is indestructible. The seed of compassion, of Buddha's compassion, is indestructible. It's not indestructible. It's perishable. It can be lost very easily. It needs to be protected from our selfish views. Even though we give rise to it, we can become obsessive about it, so we have to protect it by radical self-emptying. Once the person has given rise to the thought of enlightenment, then the person has to drop out. It doesn't mean get rid of it like there isn't one. Dropout means the person has to be freed from all categories of it isn't here, it is here, and so on.

[75:31]

The true ungraspable self has to be realized and then the thought of enlightenment is protected and alive and will start functioning immediately. As soon as you think of it, it starts to function immediately. But also, it can be destroyed instantly right after you think of it, too, if you don't immediately also practice wall-gazing with its birth. So what song should we sing now?

[76:20]

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