So this 8-fold path is another way to talk about Zazen, and so I would say that Zazen is what's happening, of course what's happening is that way all the time, and so Zazen is like Zazen is all the time, and so what seems to be happening for us anyway is that there are, you know, there's two ways we live. One way is a way called sometimes the way of the world, the way of karma, where we live in terms of personal existence as separate from other beings and where we do things by our own power, and that's part of what seems to be happening. Although that may not actually be happening, it is actually happening and that seems to

[01:02]

be happening. Another world which is simultaneous with Zazen, which is simultaneous with the world of karma is the world of freedom from karma, and of course the world of freedom from karma is meaningless to us aside from the world of being trapped in the world of karma, right? So the only reason we're talking about Zazen is because we don't realize what Zazen is, and the only reason why we're practicing Zazen is because we're not completely in accord with what's happening, so when we're not in accord with what's happening, when we don't appreciate what's happening, we're unhappy, and when we do completely appreciate and are in accord with what's happening, we're free and happy, but those two worlds aren't separate,

[02:05]

otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about it. Zazen is that both of these worlds are happening simultaneously, and Zazen is partly part of Zazen, which is the part of Zazen that is the right view, is to see and understand that there's these two worlds, and the first level of this understanding, because part of what's happening is this understanding, is to understand the world of karma, the mundane world, the world of bondage and suffering. The other part of understanding, which goes with Zazen, is to understand the world of freedom. Zazen sees and understands both these worlds simultaneously, when it's fully realized, and it doesn't prefer one over the other, because it doesn't make sense to prefer one

[03:11]

over the other, because they're inseparable. Zazen is what's happening, so it doesn't prefer that things weren't the way they are. It sees that things seem to be this way, and that they're not, and doesn't prefer that they're not over that they are, okay? That's right view. Now, yesterday and this morning I talked about trying to develop a vision of how karma works, and if you see how karma works, that vision of how karma works is the beginning of wisdom, and also, when you see how karma works, you would start to understand that this karmic thing is a big problem for us, it really causes suffering and bondage, so that naturally leads

[04:22]

to the next step of right thinking, or right intention, because once you understand the world of karma, once you see how karma works, it would be natural for you to intend to find a way to be free of that world that you see is bondage and misery. Or another way to put it is, once you see how karma works, once there's a vision of how karma works, it's not so much that you should want to be free of it, but rather, the way things happen, the way things actually happen is that when there's a vision of how karma works, there's also an intention to be free of it.

[05:25]

That's the way things are. And before there's a vision of how karma works, there won't necessarily be an intention to wish to be free of that process. Or another way to put it is, once you understand the laws of karma, your thinking becomes a kind of thinking which is thinking about what's the way to be free of this mess. So, once you, with right view, with the first part of right view, which is right view of seeing the world of karma, I haven't talked about the right view which is looking at the

[06:28]

world of freedom, I'll talk about that later in the week, but once you start settling into the vision of how the world of karma works, that settling into things and seeing how it works is beginning to free you already from delusion. Your karmic activity is continuing because you still haven't completely freed yourself of all self-delusion, but you're starting to see how the self concocts activity and that's an antidote to delusion. When the delusion starts to be antidoted by meditating on the karma which is going on, then naturally you give rise to an intention, again, to find a way to move through this karmic field in the most happy and reasonable and peaceful way, which is what we call right

[07:33]

thinking or right intention, which would be the intention of loving-kindness, the intention of renunciation, and the intention of harmlessness. So again, once you see how karma works, once you view how karma works, the kind of thinking that arises in the midst of that view is towards renunciation, loving-kindness, and harmlessness. So there's view of how the world of bondage works, the view, and then connecting the view and these actions, the aspects of the path of action, speech, physical action, and livelihood,

[08:36]

connecting the view with these activities will be intention. And I wrote on the board yesterday this word, cetana, which is the definition of karma. So, as you're meditating on right view, you're studying karma, and as part of studying karma, you start to zero in on and see the volition or the intention which gives rise to karmic activity. So you're meditating on your karma and as you start to see what kind of karma you've got, the main way you tell is to look back to what is the motivation, what is the intention out of which this karma arises. So by practicing right view, you start to tune your understanding into the basic source of all action. And then you notice, this kind of motivation causes problems and trouble and pain.

[09:42]

This kind of motivation is wholesome and beneficial and happy. You start to see the volition. So then, you start to develop now a volition which will be in accord with what you've learned is the beneficial kinds of motivation. So you start training in this volition, this thinking, because again, thinking is the tendency of the mind, is the tendency of a given thought. The way of tending, that's what thinking is. So these two, view and thinking, or view and intention, they're the understanding or the view part of wisdom, and also they show that wisdom has an intention. Wisdom isn't just understanding, it's understanding and it also shapes the mind, shapes it in

[10:43]

a certain way. It makes it have a certain tendency, and the tendency in this case is a tendency which will go with what's happening instead of against it. So again, right intention is the antidote to greed and hate. And view, right view is the antidote to delusion. So view is the antidote to delusion, and the right intention is the antidote to greed and hate. So all three roots, all three of the roots of our unwholesome karma are dealt with by the right view and right thinking. Loving-kindness and harmlessness address ill-will.

[11:53]

Loving-kindness, wishing beings to be happy, and harmlessness, the compassionate wish that they won't be hurt, slightly different. Loving-kindness and compassion. And renunciation is to think in such a way that you're actually like thinking now. Your thought is the kind of thought which doesn't cling to things, which actually, first of all, wishes to find a way to live in the middle of all the thinking in such a way that you don't cling. And again, it isn't that you should try to get yourself to not cling. It is necessary that we not cling, it's necessary that we not crave if we want to be happy. It's difficult to not crave and desire, but it's necessary in order to be free of suffering. But you don't try to stop yourself from desiring, rather you understand the connection between

[13:02]

craving and suffering. And by understanding it, the mind which is willing to kind of like cut through there and just let pleasant things be pleasant things, but not go on to them, the mind which sees how cool it is, how happy it is, how beautiful it is, to let attractive, lovely things be attractive, lovely things. And also, you learn by watching that if you let attractive, ugly things be attractive, attractive, lovely things, and you let ugly things be ugly things, that that renunciation of aversion and clinging opens your eyes gradually to beauty everywhere. But when we cling to lovely things, we kill beauty.

[14:03]

And when you see that over and over, you're gradually willing to like want to leave things alone and just, you know, appreciate, I appreciate this beautiful, lovely event. I appreciate it, that's it. That's the way I want to be with it. Because then I don't destroy beauty. Although beauty will change, I don't mess with it. I don't try to get a hold of it. And ugliness is the same. If you try to push away ugliness, that makes it harder to leave loveliness alone. So Zazen contains this whole chart, but in particular now I'm emphasizing that what's happening is, the way things are happening is, that when one appreciates what's happening, one antidotes delusion and one wishes to find a way to become free of the karmic processes.

[15:13]

When what's happening is that one is not meditating on karmic processes, when that's what's happening, and that does sometimes happen, then Zazen is, in a sense, Zazen is that the person doesn't want to stop karmic processes. The sad Zazen. But in fact, Zazen has been letting people indulge in karma all this time. It hasn't been busting the karma people, it lets them go ahead. That's part of Zazen, is that there is such a world of misery, composed of people who do not yet want to study karma. But Zazen is also that, when people study karma, their thinking changes into right intention gradually. And the more you understand karma, the more right intention becomes mature, and the more

[16:19]

clear you are that you want to become free of the process. So that's a little bit about right intention, and how it kind of naturally comes up out of right view, and naturally comes down from right view, and how right view and right intention then prepare us for right speech, right action, and right livelihood. But again, it won't be that we're forcing ourselves to speak right, it will be that we want to. Our intention is to speak in a way that promotes renunciation, that supports loving-kindness, and that supports harmlessness. The antidote to harmlessness and loving-kindness are greed and hate.

[17:25]

But you should remember that, if you ever have too much loving-kindness, just generate some goodwill, and that will pretty much take care of it for the time being. Although, you know, if... Ill will. What? Ill will. Generate some ill will. What did I say? Goodwill. Yeah, ill will. Generate some ill will, and that will pretty much take care of your loving-kindness. However, if the loving-kindness is super strong, a little bit of ill will won't do it. But basically, if you keep working at it, you can gradually overcome quite a bit of loving-kindness. But if the loving-kindness is really, really fierce, then ill will actually makes it a bit stronger. Now, like I say, if it, you know, a breeze will blow out a candle, but wind blown on a forest fire just makes it stronger.

[18:40]

So, the thing to do is to get your loving-kindness pretty big, and then you'll be in good shape, so that when people try to apply the antidote to it, it won't hurt you. And the same with... Actually, I think I said that wrong. Did you say what the antidote to harmlessness and loving-kindness? Just ill will. Greed is the antidote to renunciation. I said that wrong. So, greed is the antidote to renunciation. And delusion is the antidote to right view. But once you see how karma works, you know, once you start seeing it, you're kind of spoiled a little bit, you know, forever. Owen? What we just said might get at what I'm going to ask, but does karma invariably lead to suffering,

[19:47]

or are there types of karma that can be pleasurable and not lead into the cycle of suffering that you've been talking about? And similarly, can you interact with beauty in a way that doesn't destroy the beauty of the other points you made? Yeah. Okay, two points. First point is, wholesome karma does not lead to suffering. It leads to good fortune, material good fortune and good spiritual opportunities. However, just good karma by itself will never set you free from samsara, from bondage to birth and death and, you know, delusion. Good karma by itself isn't sufficient. So, in some sense, good karma perpetuates the life of suffering. So, within the life of suffering, within the karmic world, good karma makes it more and more pleasant under this basically faulty situation.

[20:48]

And it sets up spiritual opportunities, too. So, good karma is the best karma, because it sets up the possibility for receiving the teaching which can liberate us. But you can't receive the teaching which will liberate you before you understand the workings of the world and practice wholesome karma. If you practice wholesome karma, you can eventually receive a liberating teaching. But practicing wholesome karma is not sufficient. You must receive the teaching about how to become free of the whole karmic situation. So, you also want to renunciate pleasurable or good karma, wholesome karma, ideally. Because that gets you trapped into the world of karma. Yeah, not exactly renounce it, but... What you want to renounce is the source upon which karma is made possible.

[21:51]

You want to renounce your attachment to yourself, which is the source of good karma, too. So, if you want to take care of yourself, the best way to take care of yourself and keep yourself is good karma. If you want to become free of self-clinging, you'd be completely happy. And still, you should do good karma so that you can do a practice which will then help you become free of your self-clinging and set you completely free. So, as long as you've got any kind of self, then you're involved in karma. And good karma is preferable. But that's not enough. To begin the path of liberation, you start practicing Right View, which is not only you're doing good karma, hopefully, but you're studying the karma. And if you happen to do any unwholesome karma, you study that, too. So, this starts the process of liberation. By, in some way, making the Right View will make you more skillful at your karmic life.

[22:59]

And also, by becoming more skillful at your karmic life, you should be able to be more successful at studying karma. And when you get really successful at studying karma, when you really understand karma, then your thinking will get clearer, your intention will get more pure, your action, your speech, action and life will get more pure. You move into these concentration practices and become more successful. And then Right View will be able to now look at the actual liberating principles. And then you said, is there some way of relating to beauty the way that doesn't destroy it? Yeah. Other than appreciating it. Well, actually, I said appreciating it, but that actually is a little bit too much. Almost. So, the way of relating to beauty that doesn't destroy it is to just be intimate with it. Which means, don't touch it and don't turn away from it.

[24:04]

Don't deny it, don't exploit it. Just be there with it, pure of it. That won't destroy it. And that won't promote it. But, it will set you up to have the revelation of beauty again, and again and again. It will also help you let it go when it changes, because beauty changes, and also it will let you not make beauty into something, because beauty really isn't something. As a matter of fact, that's what beauty is. Beauty is that things aren't really anything at all. That's what's so beautiful about them. Like, one time I heard Yo-Yo Ma play the cello. I couldn't even tell it was music. I couldn't tell it was beautiful. Maybe it wasn't. But I had, usually, these very good musicians, I can tell that they're beautiful.

[25:05]

But that's not real beauty. Beauty is, primarily, not beautiful. And when that hits you, you may want to bring that into something beautiful, make it into your self-defined beauty. And then you kill it. I think of Wilker said, beauty is something like the beginning of a terror, which you're just barely able to stand. Were you next, Liz? I have a question about back-flatting. Back-flatting, yeah. You're aware of clarity, you're aware of intention, and you feel trapped in a sticky body. You can kind of experience your body going out and sticking and clinging. And in your heart, you know that not much longer to do it. It feels like there's momentum of old habits.

[26:09]

Yeah, so like maybe you're practicing right view, maybe. You're noticing this strong habit to generate certain kinds of karma and get stuck in certain situations. So when you see that, then you're going to want to, you're going to develop a thought or an intention which would be, gee, it would be cool to sort of slip free of that stickiness. So when you see the stickiness, in some sense, you've got the stickiness down. But now the stickiness is under surveillance. It helps. Yeah, it helps. And the more you watch it, the more you say, well, there it is again. You know, I don't know if I really like the stickiness all that much. And I don't know if actually I should hate the stickiness that much either.

[27:11]

Maybe I should just like not hate it too much and not like it too much. But actually, I think, you know, I would be willing to let it go. If that would happen, I would be okay with it. So I'm not going to be real heavy on this stickiness, because that would be another kind of stickiness, right? You know that story that I tell about, what is it, Br'er Rabbit? You know that story? How many people do not know the story of Br'er Rabbit? Okay, so this is a story from, you know, the movies or something. So there's a, is it Br'er or Br'er, how do you say it? Br'er. Br'er? Br'er. [...] B-R-E-R. It's Br'er. It's Br'er, but it's... Br'er. Yes, Br'er. It's Br'er, but they say Br'er. Anyway, somebody, some kind of rabbit, some kind of bear and some kind of fox. So the bear and the fox are always trying to catch the rabbit, but the rabbit is too smart for them.

[28:12]

So finally, what they do is they make this tar baby. Take a pile of tar and shape it into a baby, and the rabbit goes by the tar and says, Hi, baby. But, you know, the tar babies can't talk, so the tar baby doesn't say anything. And the rabbit says, Hey, I said hi. And the tar baby doesn't say anything. I said hi. Hey, you. And he goes, hey. Poof. He slugs the, pokes the, pokes the little tar baby and gets his hand stuck in the tar. Right? A little sticky. Sticky, sticky. Yeah. So what does he do? He says, okay. So then he takes his hand to push himself out. See, he's got two hands in. Okay. So then he says, okay, and then he uses his feet to get out. And then he uses his head to get out. So then, then the bear, the bear and the fox come out to get the rabbit.

[29:15]

The bear doesn't even understand that they caught him. But the fox says, okay, we got him. And they come out and they get the rabbit. Because he got stuck. But then he didn't just like, just say, okay, I'm stuck. And meditate on that. If you live in Mississippi, like where I was born, you live in Mississippi, you stick your hand in tar. Okay? If it's soft enough to get your hand in, you just stand there for a while. And it'll soften up and you can pull it out. But if you're in a hurry, stick your other hand in, you can get all tangled up, even on a hot day. You stick your hand and you just wait and meditate. That stuff will fall off. You can pull your hand out. But he was impatient. Wanted to get rid of that stickiness. Push it away. Then you get more involved in it. That's not renunciation. That's playing into it more. Renunciation is, I'm not even going to fight this. I'm going to let go of being stuck.

[30:16]

In other words, I'm going to be willing to be stuck. Because I am anyway. Why not? So then you get unstuck. Watching TV isn't all bad. I don't know who is next. Were you next, Vasudev? Beauty is not good or bad. Bad things are as beautiful as good things. Ugliness, you know, evil is as beautiful as good. People don't like it if I say that maybe, but the way evil happens, the world, the universe makes evil. And the way evil is made is beautiful. And the way good is made is beautiful.

[31:20]

If you can appreciate the beauty of evil, you won't attach to it. If you can appreciate the beauty of good and not try to grab the beauty, you'll let go of the good too. Letting go of good is good and letting go of evil is evil. The thing about letting go of evil though, when you let go of evil, there's no more evil. But when you let go of good, there's more good. So letting go of evil is good and letting go of good is better. And when you see the beauty of good and evil, and how they make each other, and you leave it alone, then you're ready for the next moment to see how things happen again. That's the right view for Section 3. When you can actually see how things happen. This is how, the first right view is how the world of karma happens. Which isn't exactly how things happen, it's more how suffering under the illusion of separate existence we generate karma. We have to take responsibility for that.

[32:22]

But then later, after practicing these other aspects, you're ready to start looking at what an illusion karma is in the first place. Not just how karma works, but how karma doesn't work. But you have to see how karma works before you can contemplate how it doesn't work. So again, based on how karma does work, you can receive the teaching of how it doesn't. But if you receive the teaching of how it doesn't before you understand how it does, you're just going to be, you're just going to be crazy, you know. Jonathan? I'm remembering being here last year in this Root Review workshop. You gave a couple of talks that feel like something very, very different from what you're talking about now. I remember you talked about the Dragon's Cave. On the board you made a line in the middle. On one side you put karma and samsara and bondage and suffering and illusion. On the other side you put

[33:24]

freedom and liberation and renunciation and so on. Ending all that. Yeah, I did that today too. But that's what you said last time was, the biggest, as I understood, the biggest illusion was thinking that anything on the right side of the board could get to you. The reality was that we are in delusion and that that's the side that we're stuck in. And that going to that Dragon's Cave and experiencing it deeper, [...] somehow you can release it. But again, the idea that you can go over to this side of the board to get enlightenment. That's the same thing I'm saying today. I thought so but I didn't see it. Thanks for rephrasing it. Saying it over. It's the same thing. Going in the Dragon's Cave is to understand karma. When you understand karma, you're ready for the world of freedom from karma. But you can't get the world free of karma because it's free. You can't get it. If we could get the world of karma,

[34:25]

we would have got it already. If we could get the world free of karma, we would be rich because everybody would want to buy that. But we don't own it, so it's free of us. Nobody can capitalize on it. Freedom from karma, that world over there, whichever side it's on, I don't know. But anyway, the world of freedom from karma is given to us from being willing to understand the world of karma. It's inseparable from the world of karma. You can't get it separate from it. So you go into the Dragon's Cave through Right View. You go down into it and start meditating on karma. There's the Right Intention. You develop your intention about how you're going to behave in the world of karma. It's the Right View. You start to see the world of karma. Right Intention is, OK, here we go. We're going in there. We're going down into the cave now and we're bringing with us... We're going to go into the cave and we're going to renounce getting anything out of this visit to the dragon. There's a pearl under the dragon thing,

[35:26]

but I'm not going to try to get that or anything. For myself. So I'm going to go in there with renunciation, with ill will. I'm not going to hurt anything, including the dragon. I'm not going to hurt this dragon. There's loving kindness. Loving kindness, harmlessness, and renunciation. I'm going down in that cave. And then when I get in the cave, I'm going to practice Right Speech. Hello, dragon. Right Action. Right Action. Right Action. Whatever you know. Right Action. Right Action. Hopefully it will come out. Because you've got the right intention. You've got the renunciation, the harmlessness, and the loving kindness. So hopefully you'll say the right thing. And you'll have the right posture. Stand up straight or bow down. Whatever is appropriate for the dragon. And then you have Right Livelihood.

[36:27]

You clean up dragon poop. Then things get pretty cool. You're talking to the dragon. You've got a nice conversation going. You're in the right posture. Not standing up too straight, maybe. Or bending down too low. Dragons maybe don't like you to bend down too much. You find the right posture. You find the right job there in the dragon cave. Then you're ready to make Right Effort. Then you're in the cave. You've got your situation in the cave. Then you can go on to Right Effort. Which is basically, you start working on your inner states there. Being with the dragon. Up close and breathing your face. How do you know when various things are going to come up? How do you take care of yourself? And then how do you practice mindfulness there in the cave? And how do you practice concentration? And then you're ready to see how did this thing happen in the first place anyway? Then you're back to Right View and Right Intention again. So it is the same story. Although it sounded different to you, huh? No, you helped me. Because I was thinking,

[37:27]

oh, you're saying these are all these different steps or ways we can try to get out of the cave. But no, there are ways to be in the cave. There are ways to be in the cave and make your peace in the cave. And when you're at peace in the cave, when you find peace in that cave, you know you're all set. Because if you can be happy in that cave, if they should happen to take the dragon away and bring you up to the surface with the flowers and the butterflies and stuff, you'll be okay there too probably. It's just to make your peace with demons, you know, with your demons, with your deep, deep, dark habits. Become free of those. You can also become free of your lighter weight habits, your more beneficent karmic patterns. Anything else today? So you understand Right Intention now? Renunciation. Loving kindness. Compassion.

[38:28]

Harmlessness. Renunciation is distinct from aversion. How is it distinct from aversion? Well, like I said, it's like this. You're stuck. Get your hand in the Tar Baby. You're stuck in the world. You don't push the Tar Baby away. That's not renunciation. That's bringing the ill will in. So you're stuck out of greed, right? Renunciation is basically to renounce your attachments. Right? That's what it's about, to renounce attachments. You're attached. You're stuck. So then if you would, if your ill will would like, it would actually help you get more stuck. Because ill will, like, okay, desire is not good, so get rid of desire. Then you're kind of like, the dragon's just down there, lower, you know, waiting. If you've got your hand, you know, stuck in the dragon, and you can actually interact with it, it's sort of like, it's a waste of time when you can let go. And your attachment to the dragon will go away.

[39:31]

Yes? Yes? Yes? You don't, you don't try to be free of it, you try to... Yeah, I think you're right. You don't, you don't, your, your, your, your understanding of right view is if you don't try to be free of it, you just try to meet it openheartedly. Okay? I agree, that's right view. However, after you accomplish right view, then you want to get free of it. That's right intention. What? Pardon? You want to get free of karma. But that's not right view. Right view is just you understand that karma is, you know,

[40:41]

really dangerous, and, and, and you're entrapped in patterns. You see that. And, did you say openhearted? Huh? So, in order to see the pattern you're caught in, you see the pattern your heart's caught in, you have to open up your heart to look to see that you've got all these, all these patterns in your heart. You're part, you're, you've got, you know, you've got this grid stuck in your heart. That's why it hurts. And openheartedness is to admit, my heart hurts. And this is why, and it hurts because I've got all these rigid karmic habits in there. That's right view. Right view has nothing to do with, like, not wanting to be that way. If you don't want your, the karmic world to be that way, it's going to be hard for you to study it. So I agree with you, that's right view. But then, once you have right view, then it's okay to have an intention. The wisdom, this shows you that wisdom is not just understanding and seeing the way things are.

[41:43]

It actually has a purposeful aspect too, is that the mind actually starts getting shaped in a direction which is a way to sort of like cut through the world of karma and live right there and be free of it. But that's not right view, that's right intention. And it's not that right intention isn't openhearted. Right intention lives in consort, in concert, with right view, which is openhearted. But right intention is not emphasizing right openheartedness. It's based on openheartedness. But openheartedness can do something like this. It can express itself. It can make an intention. You know, like when a flower just comes up out of the ground. It's like... That's not the openness. That's an expression which is based on openness. So,

[42:44]

openheartedness is not wanting karma to go away. Openheartedness is understanding the nature of karma. And when you understand how karma is, a kind of thinking happens in your head, which is a new kind of thinking. Not necessarily new, but which is a kind of thinking which is an antidote to the source of karma. But it's not... It's not wanting the karma to go away. It's wanting to be free of the karma. To let go of it. It's not hating the karma and the beings which were involved in karma. It is having loving kindness towards beings in karma and being gentle with the situation. But that is the way that you become free, is to think that way. Yes? So, does karma ever go away? Does it ever go away? It does... It does go... It goes away. It actually goes bye-bye the second time you get around here. When you practice Right View at the ultimate level and understand

[43:46]

that the basis of karma is illusory, then there's no more karma. Karma means the kind of action that's based on, you know, this kind of... the shape of the mind. And itself. When you no longer see this as substantial, you're no longer involved in karma. You still walk around, you know, waving your arms madly and singing strange songs like you did before. But it's not karma. It's just the activity of the whole universe located at your body and voice. But there's no belief in self there anymore. Completely free of it. So, karma can't happen without belief in self. Because volition doesn't make any sense without that actor. So there's no...

[44:48]

There isn't any karma anymore in liberation. But it hasn't been destroyed or anything. There never really was any karma. But you have to understand how it is that you still think there is before you understand clearly. So... A lot of sincere... what do you call it? Soul-searching, right? Let's see how that all works. Would you say that intention takes the place of volition? Would I say that intention takes the place of volition? I guess what I'm asking is... No. Yeah. Well, here intention kind of takes the place of volition. Intention is a kind of volition. So here the first time through the Eightfold Path you still believe in yourself as you come through here the first time. Therefore your thinking is still somewhat karmic. Again, thinking is a definition of karma.

[45:52]

So you still are involved in karma. But the kind of karma you're thinking of doing and the kind of thinking you have here is a thinking which is addressing the roots of the karma. It's starting to become an antidote to the basis upon which karma depends. The second time through you still would have the intention to practice renunciation loving-kindness and harmlessness but you wouldn't be thinking of yourself doing it anymore. So the whole process of speech action all these things then are no longer karma. They're just you know enlightened activity of someone who's free from volition. So what lifetime is that real? Which lifetime? It's called as soon as possible. And it could happen to you. Some people maybe could tell you, Judith

[46:52]

that it's not going to happen this lifetime. Fortunately, I will not see that it's not. So you know it could be this lifetime for you. But even people who develop right view and become free of self, however they don't necessarily clear up everything in this lifetime even when they get back here to the second time but they do always get it all cleared up in less than seven lifetimes. Which you know Seven, yeah, seven. And this one's gone by pretty fast, hasn't it? So I don't know. Is this really difficult?

[48:12]

Or is this really easy? Most people find it really difficult. Because it's so it's so difficult. First of all, here it's very difficult to watch your karma. Many reasons why it's difficult. One reason why it's difficult is a lot of us think not so much at Tassajara during the practice period but sometimes during the summer even people think that if you actually like took the time you know turned around and looked at what's going on inside yourself and watched your volitions it would change your persona or people would have a problem with you you couldn't work as fast it potentially could cause some disturbance and you start meditating on your karma watching yourself do it. So people are afraid of have difficulty with that. There's a social adjustment problem that might occur. People do notice

[49:13]

people often will notice if you're trying to do this when you're first trying to do it. And you become more skillful they won't necessarily notice it because you can maybe talk fast and move your arms and stuff and still watch yourself at the same time. When you're first doing it it's kind of like maybe you need to stop for a little while and look and be kind of quiet and see the motivation and not act on it or act on it depending on what you find out to do. That's difficult. Also, it's not only difficult that way but it's also difficult in terms of what you see. Sometimes what you see makes you feel like some people say I've heard just this week people talking about that when they start looking their opinion of themselves is that they have much more problems than they thought they had. Their motivation is not so good as they thought it was. That's difficult to see too. And then it's also difficult even if everybody says

[50:14]

we really want you to do this we really support you to do this even if you have to like stop in the middle of a conversation or stop in the middle of a path or not go to work right away because you're meditating on your motivation like you're at a work meeting here. He says, well that's it Dan, go to work. Everybody starts stanza and I think, now what's my motivation? The work leader says go right ahead, just take your time everybody check out your motivation just see if you're really going to work and clean the cabins with a pure heart. Even if the work leader did that still it's hard to actually be that mindful and stay with it. So, since we usually don't look it's hard to change the habit. There's a lot of social hindrance to it and also it's grisly. And then the more you look at it also then you also notice how painful some of this stuff is and that's also difficult. So it is difficult.

[51:14]

And you know not that many people may actually do the work. It's rare that somebody like really throws themselves into it. Even though it's such a great thing it's so wonderful still it is hard, yes it is hard. Yes? There might be motivation to do the work at the point of pain. Yes, right. Typically it's a motivator. Right. So you got the pain up here and then because of the pain you might be willing to study your karma. If somebody told you that you're expected that if you study your karma that might help you you know deal with this pain. And actually if you're in a lot of pain studying your karma might not make you in more pain it might calm you down actually. Because you might see well, I'm still in pain

[52:17]

but now I see why. So it's not just at random that I'm in pain. That my chronic habits have something to do with it. That sometimes makes people joyful in the middle of their agony. Yes, that's why it helps to have a little group to do this worship. And say to other people are you suffering too? Yeah. Is this hard for you too? Yeah. And reading scriptures helps too because the Buddha had a hard time. But he did hang in there and do it fully and then it worked for him. A lot of stories up at the ancestors are really painful stories. When you talk about hanging in there isn't there a point somewhere along the line where you really don't have any choice? You just are going to continue in that direction

[53:17]

on this path and you can't really go back. The sooner we realize that we have no choice the better. It's just deluded to think you have alternatives. So you never really do have a choice. You never do have an alternative. And as soon as you realize that you don't have an alternative then you go straight ahead. When you do think you have an alternative you grumble and say blah blah blah and make excuses and complain and waste time. So there isn't an alternative. In spiritual practice there's no alternative. If you think there's an alternative basically you're out of spiritual practice temporarily and you're just complaining along the road somewhere. I'm just wondering even like a person let's say a person who does that who drops out and complains along the road somewhere I mean how long

[54:19]

you know how long can they keep that up? Long time. More than seven lifetimes. Yeah, you can do that longer. That would that could be much longer than how long the path will be from now or whatever. From the beginning of when you stop having an alternative to realizing the way will be shorter than the amount of time that you can spend complaining. But people have to complain for sometimes a long time before they say I'm done with complaining now I'm just going to stop I'm going to stop deviating and I'm just going to live a life of no alternative to my work. Once you get onto that thing then things go along very nicely although still difficult. It doesn't get it isn't that it's easy it's just that you go forward all the time rather than off to the side. So you know we can't make that happen but keep it in mind that that's a good thing

[55:20]

to let happen as soon as possible. No alternative then you'll be on the path. Yes? Do we start this over every time because I don't think if I have been born before I don't remember having any of done any of these before I mean I would think maybe last lifetime I might remember 20% of it that I got rid of and I keep building up because at this rate I don't think I'll ever make it. We start over every time I mean it's from zero. Well you know some people say it's not really from zero. I mean you know if it was from zero some people would say you wouldn't be here if it was from zero. Okay

[56:22]

Yes? Often you talk you know there's talk about when there's pain and suffering it's the incentive to cause to practice. Would you say something about I mean my experience is that there is also pain and then there's kind of repeat that you know repeat? Yeah like or by you know seeing all those patterns or by and then getting so caught up and confused that there's not even a sense of what practice could be at that place. Yeah And a discouragement a very basic discouragement discouragement so so how to deal with that? It sounds like mostly it gets talked through you know pain helps us but sometimes I find pain makes it worse. It doesn't

[57:24]

you know I lose track or I fall really completely off the track in the middle. While I'm seeing that I'm creating it but then that makes it even worse. But I'm also seeing that I'm not able to stay to track it to really stay with it. So then so then you you somehow for some reason you say that out loud. Yeah You just said it. Say it. And then I say that if you couldn't track it you wouldn't be able to tell me what you just told me that you are studying it and then I say to you that's good that you saw that. You're discouraged that you just saw you just saw

[58:25]

how you got discouraged. There's a pattern in there by which you suffered a certain type of suffering and you responded to it in a certain way and you got discouraged but you still were there to see it and tell me so then I can tell you that's good. Now if you couldn't tell me tell it to yourself that would be another story but you wouldn't know about that story. But there's those stories too. There's the stories of when you were in pain you handled it in such a way that you got discouraged and you didn't even notice it so you couldn't tell somebody who said that's good. But we spent a lot of time we spent a lot of time all of us being in pain being discouraged not even noticing it and going down deeper. Somehow we came up to the point where we noticed it and you could tell me and I could tell you that's good this is part of right view what you're just telling me about. There's many stories of how it goes this is one of them but you're in right view you are understanding something the story of

[59:25]

not just seeing pain and being encouraged by the vision of pain but seeing pain and being discouraged by seeing it but also notice that you're discouraged by seeing it and also being able to tell me or somebody and me being able to tell you yeah that's what I'm talking about it sounds different that's another variety I can't say all the varieties but you can I can say this is good and you [...] everybody tells me all these things then we have a full variety so I can say oh yeah I didn't say that but this is good too and that's good too everybody's way of doing it is good because every time you tell somebody about it that shows you were there it, see it, and you're practicing right view. Every time you see one of your stories and can become aware of it, you're practicing right view, because your stories are basically mostly karma stories. Okay, that's enough for today.

[60:17]

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