May I say something I've said before? In the sitting meditation of our tradition, there is a constant awakening to the reality that we are in a reciprocal relationship with all beings, whereby we live our life together moment by moment. However, because of our ancient twisted karma, obstacles have arisen

[01:07]

to this awakening, so that we may not understand this reality of imperceptible mutual assistance. Because of our past actions, we tend to only understand through our perceptions, and we do not perceive, necessarily, that we are supported by all beings, and that we support all beings. So, as I've told you, many people have diligently and courageously and honestly told me that they just don't see how they are supporting certain people. Usually they give examples of cruel people. They just do not see how they support these people to live,

[02:11]

and they do not see how these people support them to live. This mutual assistance sometimes has a, appears within perception, sometimes through perception you can see it, which is wonderful, maybe. Maybe you don't want to see that you are supporting cruel people, and that they are supporting you, but sometimes you see it anyway. Sometimes you see that cruel people are your dearest friend, are your brother, are your mother, are your father, but that perception is not the actual way that it's happening. The way it's happening, it does not mix with perception. So, even if you do see it, that's not the full measure of

[03:12]

it. The full measure of it is, it does not mix with our conceptions. In the illumination, in the understanding of this inconceivable Dharma, even Buddha's consciousness does not reach it. However, Buddhas are illuminated as to this imperceptible mutual assistance. We live in it all the time, but our consciousnesses are not illuminated. And even if the consciousnesses are illuminated, it isn't that the consciousnesses see it, they are illuminated. Consciousness becomes illuminating light. So, if we do not realize the awakening to this reality, then

[04:23]

because of our background, then our recommendation from Dogen is, practice confession and repentance. Keep listening to the teaching and noticing that you don't feel that you've awakened to it. And even though you may listen to the teaching that you live in this realm of imperceptible mutual assistance, still, you say, honestly, this is not my experience. I confess and perhaps repent. This is not my experience. And this is a process. There is, however, in addition to repentance, practices which we can do, called renunciation practices. And renunciation practices tend to open us and prepare us, prepare the ground, prepare the conditions

[05:28]

where we would be able to awaken to where we already are. And we've talked about the renunciation of having our life pivot on gain and loss, having our happiness that we can know most of our happiness be about gain and most of our sadness about loss, rather than be happy because we've renounced gain and loss, and are in a condition apropos of awakening to the reality of our life. Or even be happy, not based on gain and loss, but happy that we're practicing confession and repentance of our lack of understanding and our lack

[06:36]

of practice. Confessing that I don't understand and also confessing that I'm not even doing the practice of giving up worldly affairs very well. But again, the more we practice, the more we notice that we're still hung up on gain and loss, the more we're aware of it, the more ready we're becoming for giving up gain and loss. And the more we give up gain and loss, the more we're ready for awakening to the reality of the ancestors Samadhi. And also the more we confess and repent that we're not awakened to the ancestors Samadhi, that also supports and nurtures our readiness to awaken. And yesterday Michael talked about his way of practicing Zazen, which I agree with, and

[07:44]

my take on what he was saying was that in sitting, you can notice that you're not aware. For example, you can notice places of holding, places of concern for gain and loss in your body. And again, noticing these places of holding and also noticing perhaps the consequences of holding to different parts of your body and mind, holding to wishing for a different state or sadness of losing a certain state, this kind of physical practice and mental practice is a way, again, to notice gain and loss, concern with gain and loss, confess it and repent it. And he used the term fire, and the confession and repentance is the kind of fire that burns up our clean, that burns up our seeking for gain and seeking

[08:51]

to avoid loss. However, in that description there was another part of practice which was not mentioned. What's the other part that wasn't mentioned? Right in the sitting practice there's confession and repentance. If you're sitting and you notice these places of holding, these places of tension, these points of gain and loss in your sitting, you're sitting and you see a gain. Ever seen a gain in sitting? Ever heard about a gain in sitting? You're sitting there and you feel like, ooh, a gain! And then you're happy. So, if you notice that kind of like there's an outflow, there's a gain

[09:52]

and loss concern. And of course, it's also common to notice losses in sitting or losses of a certain level of pleasure, or gain of a certain level of pleasure. So, noticing these things in sitting, this is part of what we call, now I'll give you a hint, this is part of what we call learning to just sit. Learning to just sit means you notice you're not just sitting. Does that make sense? Most people have occasionally noticed that they're not just sitting, that they're hankering for a gain in their sitting. Does that make sense? Ever hope for a gain in your sitting? Ever hope for like an improvement? And then, not only hope for it, but see the improvement as a gain? Or even sometimes when you don't even hope for it, the gain just comes. You just sort of like feel really great. And then you feel happy because you feel great. So, when those kinds of things happen, those

[10:57]

are opportunities to burn away that kind of like clinging to the happiness, to the feeling good that comes. This is a training. This is like, someone asked me, what's a discipline? This is a discipline. Discipline means a way that you learn. Renunciation is not the same quite as the reality of how we're helping each other, because the reality of how we're assisting each other includes all kinds of people who are not practicing renunciation. Renunciation is the way you learn this reality. Learning renunciation, then you learn this reality. You open to it. You become it. But renunciation is not the same as the way the whole universe is being supported by you. Renunciation is the way you open the door

[12:00]

to the awakening of how the universe is supporting you. If I'm not in a state of renunciation, if I'm holding on, if my main practice is my gain and avoiding my losses, if that's where I'm at, then the door tends to stay shut, although it sometimes cracks open for some people because of some past renunciations. Some people who are not practicing renunciation right now, because of past renunciations, right when they're sort of like totally into like gain and loss, suddenly the whole thing breaks apart and they wake up. But it comes from the past renunciations that are now taking effect and opening the door to the Dharma. Anyway, the part that was missing was the interpersonal part. What he described is the practice of just sitting. So, the just sitting is where you look inwardly and like by your

[13:04]

attention and your stillness and leaving things alone, or actually trying to learn to leave things alone, you notice how you're not leaving things alone. Messing with yourself, that's the gain and loss stuff. You notice that, you notice the messing with yourself, you notice how you're trying to like get yourself into the right place and how that's what you think will make you happy, rather than get yourself into this place. You notice that and that noticing and also you notice what it's like when you're trying to get into some place. You notice how it's sticky, it's clinging, it's painful, and that's the process of confession and repentance in sitting. So, this is your intra-psychic, intra-psychophysical exercise. When you are not anymore messing with yourself, when you're not anymore trying

[14:07]

to get yourself into some better place or avoid slipping out of this place, then you settle into just sitting. But, that's just half the practice. The other half is go interact with people, because you could be dreaming that you've achieved just sitting, plus also it takes other skills to interact with somebody else. So, that's why we have both meeting together and realizing the just sitting in the relationship, so that you don't think still, even while you're just sitting, you don't think that you're doing this just sitting by yourself. So, there is a phase, a huge phase, called

[15:27]

most of our practice, where we're in a state of discipline, where we're doing things which are conducive to learning, where we're training, or we're listening to the teaching and noticing whether it's our experience or not, and if it isn't, even if it's not our experience, we understand it. In other words, we may notice that a Dharma which is not our experience may still be true, and we actually may understand something which is not our experience, and we have the experience of understanding a teaching which is not our experience. So, we have the experience of enlightenment which is not our experience. We have the experience of a reality which is not mixed with our perception, and we have that experience, but it's not

[16:30]

a dualistic experience. But there's also a phase of practice which is not discipline, which is the actual state of freedom, and there's no more discipline necessary. So, there is a phase of practice which is not discipline. So, particularly in interpersonal realm, but also even in your sitting, we receive Bodhisattva precepts as a means of discipline, as part of the way to learn about reality. But after we learn about reality, we are beyond the discipline. We don't need it anymore. If we needed it anymore, we would not be free. And this is a little bit much to introduce

[17:44]

at this point, but I want to tell you about a sutra which I told you about before. It's a sutra translated as Fear and Dread, and it starts out by a Brahmin, apparently an Italian Brahmin, his name was Janasoli, came to the Buddha and said to the Buddha basically, are you like a teacher of people, and do they follow your example, and see you as their guide? And he said, yes, I am. I do guide people and they use me as an example. And he said, I'm paraphrasing, he said, but don't you go into the forest, in the jungle thickets and practice meditation? Yes, I do. And isn't that like, isn't going into that kind of wild jungle-like scene something which would rob the meditator of their composure and make

[18:49]

it very difficult for them to practice concentration? Wouldn't it make them frightened and upset and disturbed and make it difficult to concentrate? You know, the Brahmin Janasoli thought that. One would think that that would be the case, and Buddha said something like, that's so, one would think that was the case, that going into this difficult, this wild scene would rob someone of their concentration. And then Buddha said, I think like this, if somebody goes into the jungles, or takes resort

[19:50]

into the jungles, and does not yet have purified body and mind, they will give rise, their minds, their unpurified, unstabilized minds will give rise to fear and dread. But when I go into the forest, I do not have an unpurified mind, I have a purified mind, and therefore this mind does not give rise to fear and dread, and I'm not robbed of my concentration. As a matter of fact, I find going into the jungles a great solace. I find dwelling in the jungle thickets very solicitous, because my mind is purified. And then he goes through many

[20:52]

examples of, if someone has intentions of hate, and they go into the forest, then that mind which has intentions of hate will evoke fear and dread, and of course they won't be able to concentrate. If they have doubt, when they go into the forest, that mind will give rise to fear and dread. If they have covetousness, and they go into the forest, that mind will give rise to fear and dread. But the Buddha says, I do not have covetousness, I do not have intentions of hate, I've gone beyond doubt, therefore when I go into the forest, I find it a great source of solace. So, when I go into the forest, I find it a great source of solace. And then he says, there was a time, I believe, before he was enlightened,

[21:57]

before I was enlightened, there was a time when I went into the forest, and particularly when it was really like on the new moon, when it was really dark, I went into the forest and when I was dwelling there, you know, I'd hear these sounds in the bushes, and then I would say, hmm, why do I always dwell expecting fear and dread? What if I subdued the fear and dread while keeping the same posture that I am in? What if I subdued the fear and dread in when the fear and dread arises? Does that make sense? Before he was enlightened, he was in the forest and he noticed some fear coming, and he thought, okay, okay, there's

[23:01]

a fear, why don't I face it and get over it? How about if I just, whatever position I'm in, when the fear comes, how about if I just don't move? This is before he was enlightened. So, then, if he was walking and the fear and dread came, he's not purified, his mind is not purified, he's not free of all this stuff. So, his mind, before he was enlightened, evoked the fear and dread. So, here he is walking through the forest, the fear and dread comes up, he doesn't change his posture, he just keeps walking. If he's sitting and the fear and dread comes up, he keeps sitting. If he's lying down and the fear and dread comes, he continues to recline. If he's standing and the fear and dread comes, he continues to stand. That was the practice he apparently came upon in the jungles when fear and dread

[24:03]

arose due to his not yet purified body and mind. Not yet purified bodily conduct, not yet purified mental conduct. Because of that, he, the Buddha, experienced fear and dread in the jungle. But he came upon this practice and he practiced it, and then he settled down. And the rest of the Sutra goes through this wonderful process of him settling down. And as he settles, he is successful in overcoming all fear and dread, and actually he goes through the whole process of enlightenment, which you can read about in the Sutra number four of the Middle Length saying called Fear and Dread. But I'm not going to go through the whole process of what he went through from the time he figured out this basic practice of basically not moving from the posture you're in up to supreme

[25:16]

perfect awakening. What I bring this up for is not only to mention that nice practice, which sounds pretty similar to something we practice here still, but also to say that at the end of the Sutra, the Buddha says, after all this great enlightenment, the Buddha says, now, Brahman, Janasoli, you might think that perhaps the recluse, Gautama, is not free. You might think that the recluse, Gautama, is not free from greed, hate, and delusion, even today, because I still go into the forest. But I'm not going to go into the forest

[26:27]

You might think I'm still not free, which is why I still resort to the remote jungle thickets in the forest. But you should not think this. It is not because I'm not free that I go in those places. It's because of two benefits. One is, I like to go into the jungle thickets. And the other is, out of compassion for the future generations, I want to show them an example of a discipline. In the jungle thickets, I'm not going to go in there. In the early days of Buddha's teaching, he did not show people the precepts in any

[27:27]

way that they could see. But at a certain point, he brought them out to show to people. And after he brought them out, he mentioned to them at some point, these precepts are not for me. I don't need them. They're for you. I am beyond discipline. But I still do the discipline, which I don't have to do, because I like to. And, just as an example for you, I'm only doing it because I like to, and just as an example. He didn't say that he wouldn't do them if he didn't like them. Maybe he'd find something else he liked, which would be an example. So we have these precepts, but I think it's helpful to remember that they're part of the discipline of learning the true path of enlightenment. But there's

[28:28]

a certain time when, although you might continue to practice them, they're not really necessary. They are like the bars of the cage. They're very useful to find out if you have any clinging, any gain or loss around the practice of the precepts or around the practice of being in the jungle. If you go in the jungle, you can probably find maybe some clinging, some fear, some dread arising from the clinging, arising from the hatred, arising from et cetera. So these forms are used to help us realize the points that we must confess and repent

[29:31]

so that they can burn away. I don't burn them away. The practice of confession and repentance burns away these sticking points, these clinging points, these gaining points, these losing points. And again, it's not just gain and loss. It's that I'm stuck on gain and stuck on loss. I'm afraid of loss and I'm craving gain. These forms of being in the jungles or being in a Zen center, they bring out our sticking points and then we do our thing. Like, cry, complain, blame, hate, try to change the setup so that we won't have problems anymore. These kinds of things will happen, will arise. Then we can notice them, confess them and repent them, and they start to burn away. When they burn away, we can see, when we see

[30:35]

we don't need them anymore. But they're awfully cute, so we keep taking care of them and playing with them. Because not only are they nice to play with, especially after you have no clinging to them, not only are they lovely when you're not doing them to gain anything, they were lovely before and now they're really lovely, because they've been purified of gain and loss. Like this altar. People take care of this altar up here. I think it's a nice altar. The people who take care of it maybe do too. But if you take care of the altar without any sense of gain and loss, it's astoundingly wonderful to take care of the altar. To clean the Zen Dojo without any gain and loss is really great. It's not that bad with gain and loss, but pretty bad. So you can continue these practices afterwards, and the Buddha did continue these practices. He kept doing those practices which showed

[31:44]

him his fear and dread, which showed him his unpurified mind, and by sitting still, he with the fear and dread and the unpurified mind, the unpurified mind sloughed off, and then he opened. And then he continued the practice anyway. But he also did make the point, which is an important one, you might look, since I'm carrying this raft around, like I need it, but actually I don't. I just carry it around just in case somebody else needs it. And also, I like carrying rafts. It's my aerobic exercise. Something else... Well, part of the reason why I say this over and [...] over is because

[33:00]

I get feedback that it's still not clear what I'm saying. I remember the other thing. The other thing is about the tiles and pebbles, but before I get in, I just wanted to say that I'm saying this over and over so that you're clear. And it's possible that you and I are clear now on the practice that I'm suggesting. It's also possible that you don't wish to enter into the practice, which I'm not exactly suggesting, I'm just saying, I think this is what my faith is, and I think this is what Dogen's faith is, what I'm talking to you about. So I'm sort of telling you what my faith is and what I think Dogen's faith is. And you may or may not wish to do this type of practice. I also think it's what the Buddha's faith is. It looks to me like it is. That's why I mention the Buddha occasionally, just

[34:08]

to see if you can see some relationship between what the Buddha taught, what Dogen taught, and what I'm bringing up. I see a relationship, and I'm offering this to you. And I hope it's clear, and if it's not, please ask more questions forever. And then I have a practice of patience that I'm working on. Several more things I want to mention. One of them is this huge, wonderful, glorious topic of the walls, tiles, and pebbles. Walls, tiles, and pebbles. Remember those? Now what are the walls, tiles, and pebbles engaged in? Buddha activity. Walls, tiles, and pebbles are engaged in Buddha activity. This is a reference to a Zen story, which goes something

[35:09]

like this. Once upon a time, there was a Zen master, and he was called the National Teacher of China. National Teacher Zheng. In other words, he's the Emperor's teacher. The Emperor goes, went to Doksan with this guy. One day a monk asked the National Teacher something like, and please anybody, what do you call it, edit my story at any point. One day a monk asked the National Teacher, what is the mind of the ancient Buddha? And the National Teacher said, walls, tiles, and pebbles, right. The monk said, oh yeah, well do walls, tiles, and pebbles expound the Buddha Dharma? Because you know, the mind of the ancient Buddha expounds the Buddha Dharma, right? Do walls, tiles, and pebbles expound the Buddha Dharma? And

[36:13]

the National Teacher said, yeah they do. As a matter of fact, they expounded incessantly and incandescently. And then the monk said, well how come I can't hear it? And the National Teacher says, you may not hear it, but don't hinder that which hears it. Now, if you excuse me, I can just stop here for just a moment. This is what I'm talking about. Way back in the Tang Dynasty, National Teachers were having conversations with monks in the Imperial Practice Center. And monks were saying, I don't see that walls, tiles, and pebbles are engaged in Buddha activity. That's not my experience. I don't hear them like telling Zen stories. The Zen Teacher says, yeah right, but even though you don't hear it, don't hinder that

[37:13]

which does hear it. The monk says, I think then the monk says, well who does hear it? And the National Teacher says, the saints hear it. The monk says, Master, do you hear it? And the National Teacher says, no, I don't hear it. The monk says, well if you don't hear it, how do you know that walls, tiles, and pebbles are constantly and incessantly and incandescently expounding the Buddha Dharma? And the National Teacher says, it's because I don't hear them that I can teach you. Am I right so far? And the Zen Teacher says,

[38:18]

people, did I correct the story so far as you remember? Then the monk says, well then ordinary people have no part in it. We can't hear it, so we have no part in it. Even you can't hear it National Teacher. Only the saints can hear it. And the National Teacher says, if I did hear it, I wouldn't be able to teach you. I'm here to teach you, not to hear that. I'm here to teach you what the mind of the Buddha is, not get to hear it, hear the teaching. So then this guy says, well then ordinary people have no part in it because they can't hear it. And he says, I'm here to teach ordinary people. This is what I'm doing, I'm teaching them. It's so that you will have a part in it. Not so that you can hear it, but so that you'll have a part in it. Saints can hear it, but Buddhas don't hear it. Buddhas realize

[39:20]

it. Ordinary people don't hear it or realize it. Buddhas don't hear it, they realize it. Saints hear it. And saints are fabulous creatures because they get to hear the Dharma, you know, they like sit there and hear the walls, tiles and pebbles giving sermons. This is fabulous. But it's harder for them to teach. And then I think, I'm not sure, but I think then the monk says, what sutra is this in? You know, are you just making this up, man? And the national teacher says, I mean he quotes a sutra where it says that. He says, haven't you heard in the Avatamsaka Sutra where it says, it doesn't say walls, tiles and pebbles, but it says, grass, trees, mountains, rivers, the great earth, everything teaches, everything

[40:22]

is engaged in Buddha activity. And the monk says, oh, no he didn't say that. Anyway, that's where this comes from. It isn't just Dogen, it's the national teacher said. And he never heard, he read it in the sutra, but somehow, you know, he read it in the sutra, and the monk might have read it in the sutra too. He said, didn't you read it in the sutra? The monk might have read the sutra, but then still he read the sutra. You know how you read sutra. And then you think, well, what is the mind? The sutra says, all this stuff is teaching the Dharma, and then you say, okay, and then you think, what is the mind of Buddha? And then somebody says, it's grass, it's dirt, it's rotting poles, it's a compost pile. And you don't see how it relates to what you read. And then he explains.

[41:24]

And then we have this wonderful young man, who I told you about before, named Dung Shan, his name is Liang Jie, which means good servant, the founder of the Soto Zen tradition, the guy who says, when he heard the Heart Sutra, he said, that's not my experience. I don't know what you're talking about, no eyes, no ears. I got one. So he keeps practicing and moving around China, visiting various teachers, and so finally he comes to meet this great Master named Guishan, and he says he's heard this story about the national teacher teaching about the walls, tiles, and pebbles, everything in the universe is expounding the Buddha Dharma. He doesn't understand it. And I think Guishan says, oh yeah, we have that teaching here

[42:35]

too. Can you remember the story? So then, Dung Shan, he's a young guy, he still can remember stories, so he says the story. After he finishes his story, he says, so what's the story, teacher? And Guishan raises his whisk, his fly whisk, he raises it. He says, do you understand? And Dung Shan says, no I don't. He tells the story and the guy holds up a pebble. Do you understand? No I don't. Anyway, so I'll just make a long story short and say that he doesn't understand, he doesn't understand, and he doesn't understand. And

[43:37]

then he gets sent to another teacher. This guy gets sent to a lot of teachers by a lot of teachers, and he's confessing and repenting. He doesn't understand this. This person, this great Master spent a lot of time confessing that he didn't understand. If you don't understand, you're similar to the great ancestors. They didn't understand either before they understood. So if you don't understand this, you're just like them. But also they did one more thing, which you may or may not do. I know you're all good at not understanding, but they did more than just not understand. They also confessed that they didn't understand. Sometimes they say, I confess, blah blah, I don't understand, but sometimes they would just show they didn't understand. Sometimes they would say, like Tungshan did, I don't understand, could you say more, teacher? And Guishan said, nope, no more from me, you should go see somebody else. By the way, after Guishan referred Tungshan to go to see Yunyan, Liangjie, Tungshan, asked

[44:52]

Guishan, the young monk asked the old Master, could you tell me a little about this person you're referring me to? And he says, yeah. And I'll just say a part of what he said. One time he asked me how to practice, and I said, end outflows. So Guishan recommended to Tungshan that he practice ending these points of gain and loss. Become aware of the of your concern for gain and loss, and confess and repent them and give them up. So there too, in that ancestor, we see the same practice. So anyway, after that, Liangjie travels a long ways to find Yunyan and continues his practice of confessing and repenting his lack of understanding, and maybe his lack, and maybe also his, perhaps still some outflows.

[45:57]

Although at this point in his practice, he's pretty good, I think. But he still doesn't understand, he's getting more and more ready to understand. And he goes to see Yunyan, and finally, in that dialogue, he understands something about Tungshan. Whatever comes, whatever comes, is the Buddhadharma. Don't try to change the channel. Whatever comes is the Buddhadharma, even what I'm saying right now. Even what I'm not saying. Everybody you meet is the Buddhadharma. So let's get ready for that, and let's confess also that we don't believe that either. We don't understand that, and we don't want

[47:04]

to practice that. But if you notice that you don't really think that what's coming is the Buddhadharma, if you notice that and confess that, you probably will notice, I think you'll probably notice, that you feel some sorrow when you think something that's happening in your life is not Buddhadharma. And I wanted to say that... When I was contemplating what to write on the back of the robes that I'm going to be giving to the people... Oh, today we're having an ordination ceremony, and we're going to

[48:05]

end the Sashin after lunch, so that anybody who does not want to come to the ordination ceremony is free to go on pilgrimage. Anybody who wants to come to the ceremony is of course welcome to attend. As I was preparing for this ceremony in terms of writing on the back of the five-panel robe, I was thinking about what to write, and I kind of wanted to write embrace and sustain all beings, and be embraced and sustained by all beings, and I wanted to write that. But instead I wrote, leaving home and attaining salvation, or practicing renunciation and realize freedom, because that's sort of what this particular ceremony

[49:09]

is about. It's about entering into, committing to the practice of renunciation, of all clinging, of all worldly affairs, committing to giving up worldly affairs, committing to giving up your nest, your stuff, and by this practice attaining liberation. Liberation from suffering? Well, yes, but most of all, even more important than liberation from suffering, liberation from hindrance to realizing embracing and sustaining all beings, and being embraced and sustained by all beings. Liberation from obstruction to understanding through practicing giving up, sticking to gain and loss, or getting stuck on gain and loss. So that's what I

[50:14]

wrote instead. Should I write the result or the discipline? I wrote the discipline. And I also wanted to say that when I was in England recently, leading a retreat, I said to the people that, you know, I asked them to consider whether they wanted to commit to following the meditation schedule. I usually didn't talk to them about that before, but I brought it up this time, and I also mentioned that in the past, that if they did make this commitment that would be helpful to me, because in the past when I would leave the meditation hall to go to interviews and come back, I would sometimes find the meditation hall empty of people, almost empty, that the attendance would vary according to me being there. I noticed

[51:17]

that when I was in the hall, almost everybody was there, happily burning away all resistance to what was happening. But when I left, they thought maybe it was time for a break. I said, so that makes me not want to leave the hall to do interviews if that means you're going to stop being devoted to practice. So, I kind of would like to ask you all to hold this space, not just me, but all of us hold this space for each other, that you come to support the other people, and of course if they come, they will support you. And I guess they committed to do that, so when I left the room and came back in, they were there, almost all of them. It was great. And of course, because they weren't leaving the fire when

[52:24]

I left, they had a real hard time. Never before did they have such a hard time, but never before did they have such a great retreat. It was the most powerful retreat of all the ones I've done there, because they didn't run out of the room every time I did. They not only had the courage to stay there, but they had an experience once they did. So it was great. Here I didn't bring it up so strongly, because here I have the great assistants. I have the abbess here, I have Tanto, I have Daigon, so they're staying, and so I really appreciate all your support to help the people make the effort which they made. Do you want me to point to somebody else? And the Inu, yeah, and the Inu. And all of you, being here,

[53:28]

holding the space for your comrades, and I particularly congratulate several of the people who experienced their first session. You did a great job, Inu time people. Congratulations. Some of you didn't have such a hard time. That's okay. Maybe next time. But some of you did have a really hard time, and you're still here, and it's amazing, and thanks for everybody supporting them, and thank you for receiving the support. I think that's pretty much all I wanted to say, I mean, today, until I'm invited to speak again someday. Is there anything you want to say at this time? This is our farewell discussion.

[54:37]

Yes, Gordhan? So, I just wanted to say that I learned very much from what you said today, on how to help women, and how to be active. Yeah, that's great that even though you've never understood anything I said, you still come back. That's not what I said. Oh, it isn't? Oh. I didn't say it was your said. The fact that you come back regardless is great. Yes? Thank you for talking about the conversation. You're welcome. It's not coming together, I mean, for the first part of your talk, and for what you've been saying recently, that we all support each other, whether people are both young

[55:47]

or actively successful at work. Yes? I have a confession, and it connects with the book that you just read. And just to set the context of what I brought up the most, it's about gain and loss. I have been thinking about race, and about racial structures, and thinking about my white privilege as a kind of gain that I didn't really want. And so you clarified for me that that wasn't really an application of work, it was teaching. So the problem is something like white privilege is racial structures, but not simply teaching about gain. Not for you.

[56:49]

Yeah, at least not in that moment. Actually, my confession was about... So I did realize there was something about gain and loss. And one of the gains in this book was about feeling, feeling something about being a conscious white person, wanting to be a conscious white person, not wanting to be able to do that. So there's... I became aware of that, and then there was a piece about loss. And this has to do with my son, who's 13. And a little bit before I came here, I sent him on a trip, I was in Bali with him. And he was sort of my friend. And so I called him, and I took him home, and I asked him, how was your trip? My son is black. And he said to me, well, the trip wasn't so good.

[57:52]

And the very first thing he said was, I was a white person. And so I had lost about that. So the teaching did apply, but I guess the piece went so lapsed that I had to, I guess, extend an invitation for you to help me investigate this piece about the structures, and the white privilege piece, kind of the pieces that, you know, I feel like based on practices, you know, from people in the past, that these structures have been in place that I want to know more about this relationship between the self, how I identify as a self, and these structures. I'd like to ask your help in thinking about this and understanding,

[58:54]

you know, the variables between the beliefs. One point that I noticed when you were talking that came up to my mind was that there's a difference when you see someone who feels pain and being the only black person in a group of people who maybe aren't fully conscious of what's going on. Feeling pain about his pain, I don't think is an outflow. But to see his pain in terms of gain and loss, and if you see it as... you could see it as a gain. You could, as a gain. You could see, that proves my point. And you might feel a gain in righteousness, and feel kind of happy,

[60:00]

not about his suffering, but about, yes, see, this is the problem. Or you could see it as a loss, his suffering as a loss. But to see somebody's pain, not in terms of gain and loss, is the way to open up to the medicine for the pain. To notice how, when we see people who are having, when we see people who are happy, and when we see people who are suffering, that even in either case, we can turn that into a gain and loss thing, and then we can notice, do we get jacked around by that way of seeing it? And that way of seeing it causes more problems to everybody. But just to be happy when somebody's happy, to have sympathetic joy with them, or compassion when someone's suffering, to feel, to be empathic, and share their suffering, and wish them to be free, that's not outflow.

[61:02]

The outflow is, when you see someone who's suffering, and wish them to be free, and share their, and feel pain over their suffering, and you wish them to be free, the outflow would be, if you think it would be a gain, that they became free. And that if they became free, and you saw, and you felt happy because of the gain of them becoming free, rather than you just felt happy because they were free, in one case there's an outflow, in the other case there isn't. The happiness over the gain plants a seed for more of that, plus other terrible things. Just being happy when someone's happy, period, is not an outflow. And also, not being happy when someone, I mean, just feeling, just seeing their happiness, period, is not necessarily an outflow. It's the projection, it's the measurement of gain and loss around everything,

[62:07]

and then if it's a gain, feeling one way, and if it's a loss, feeling the other way. And then when you do feel it, then you plant the seeds for that same pattern again, plus once those seeds get planted, we start doing really unwholesome things around this gain and loss stuff. So again, if you see, for example, your own dear son suffering, and you share that, and you wish him to become free, that's fine. If you see it as a loss, and you feel bad because it's a loss, then you could have an unskillful response to his suffering. And you would be less able to help him and the other kids because of that. So noticing that overlay. So the mind calculates gain and loss, and that can stop,

[63:10]

but even if it happens, we can also train ourselves to become free of getting jacked around by the calculations. And people really have trouble understanding this. You can go to the grocery store, and you can go shopping for fruits, and try to get the best fruits for your family. That's not a problem. But if you want to get the best fruits for your family because you think it's a gain, and if you do, you feel happy because you got your gain, you have just planted a seed of harm to your family and yourself. It's very subtle. But you can learn it, and you can spot it. You may not be able to stop it, but you can spot it. And if you spot it, you can confess it. And if you confess it, you can notice the pain around it, and you can notice the seeds it plants, and you can notice the harm that comes from the seeds. The more you see that, the more you change.

[64:11]

And finally, it does happen sometimes that a good thing happens, and you're happy about it, and there's no gain in your view. Or, even if you make the calculation of gain, you don't get happy about the gain. You just get happy about the good thing. You can go visit somebody in the hospital and wish that they would be healthy without thinking that if they become healthy, it's a gain. Because if you do think, if I do think that them becoming healthy is a gain, and if I think that gain would make me happy, or if it would make me happy, then I'm at risk of discontinuing my visits if they never get well. You will eventually abandon everybody you're devoted to if things go a certain way, if you're still into offloads. You will endanger yourself and the welfare of others

[65:14]

if you don't notice this, repent it, and get over it. In the meantime, we're going to continue to act, and until we get to this point, we're going to continue to accumulate more karmic obstruction. So it's kind of sad in that way. But most of you are almost ready, almost already, most of you, I think, can see this gain and loss thing and the pain around it. So you can start confessing and repenting quite soon. And again, the Buddha had the same problem, but the Buddha confessed it and repented it. But the thing you're talking about is very subtle, and it would be great if you would bring this meditation into this work. I think you would be much more effective, and you could even tip the other people off to it,

[66:15]

which I think they would find really interesting if they could see it. Because as you say, they just want a level of field so there's no possibility of gain and loss, for example. Which is fine, but then, where is it? Where did it go? And besides that, it won't get there. It won't happen. But if they're working for that, they probably think that's a gain, so they won't realize it. The amazing thing is that the field is already harmonious, and this is all about trying to wake up to it, so that you can bring the awakening to the world. Yes? You just made a sale with a portion of gain and loss, and you see that dependent co-arising.

[67:16]

Is there an ending? Yeah, I'll say a little bit about it. Meditating on ending these outflows, which means meditating on noticing them, and confessing them, and repenting them, when the outflows end, then you can see dependent co-arising. You can actually understand it, not as an idea, but actually realize it directly, and become totally in accord with that. That's the middle way. You can actually realize the middle way. It's okay to also listen to teachings about dependent co-arising, but you've already heard them. You've already heard them a lot. Now I think it's time for you to realize them, and the way to realize them, I think, would be for you to renounce swirly affairs, renounce concern for gain and loss. But again, renounce it means now, you've renounced it, now enter into the process

[68:18]

of noticing how you're still caught up in it. And the more you notice that, the closer you're getting to actually realizing dependent co-arising. I don't think you have to study it much anymore. You know enough. Now you need to learn about the things that are happening in your psychophysical experience that are hindering your realization, these outflows, and you need to confess and repent them. Then, the root of the obstruction will melt away. But that's a tough practice. It's much easier to take classes on dependent co-arising, which we offer here, and they're very interesting. I'm not saying it's bad to study. I'm just saying, you know. Yes, Michael? Yeah, I want to tell you how I felt in support of all of you.

[69:20]

Because I sat here last night and a lot of it was by myself. And part of what I was doing was trying to prepare myself for the day. And it was hard, but I could stop when I wanted. But I really stopped when it felt natural to stop. You know, or at least natural enough to stop. And I probably put in four hours total actually, anyway. So when I checked on the day, I thought, OK, as soon as you're literally here, it was hard. You know, really, really hard. And I thought immediately, the only way I could do this, because everybody else, you know, was trying to say you did it. And I've known that, but it's such... Jesus did it. And right now, too, I mean, here you are, in books and talking, and I'm just... taking the red velvet. With our support.

[70:23]

And with your support. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Yes? First, I just have to say my heart is with you. I love your name. Sarah died a lot. It was so big. And what your answer is is so, you know, so bright and so important and I don't understand if I can just talk about feeling like you heard the truth of what was. So how does how do we, how do I distinguish between sympathetic joy and the outflow of getting joy from the game? Can you give words to the game? Well, if if I see

[71:26]

somebody doing well it's possible that I would see them doing well and feel joy at them doing well. Period. And not see it in terms of game. It's possible. But I might also notice in a similar case that somebody does well and I think, oh, that was a game. What does that mean? That I see it that way. In some ways, maybe it's easier maybe that's more difficult than to see somebody who is sick and you want them to get well. Okay. And then you think that it would be better if they got well and it would be a game if they got well. And then you notice that when they start feeling that they're more well, even though the person isn't necessarily feeling even noticing. Let's say the person is feeling that way. But you notice that what you're

[72:28]

actually getting happy about is the game. Not their wellness. And that is a subtle difference, I realize. Maybe this is another way to put it. Is that you would think to some extent that you would prefer the person being different than they are. Another way to put it. Yes. Rather than just you want it it's better than well, but if you say they're better then you kind of diminish them the way they are. And diminishing the way they are is part of the problem. But also you can also look at somebody and say the way you are is sick I want you to be well but you can be really sure that you do not think that they'll be a better person or that they're a slight

[73:31]

bit less wonderful in their sickness. Then if they get well you don't see it as an improvement or a gain. You just see it as a difference which you like to have happen for them. But also they may never change to do this thing you want. So then you just keep appreciating the way they are over and over in this constantly changing so called sick condition. Another way to spot it is if you have slipped into thinking that their wellness is better or that it would be better than what they are that they're not complete and perfect in themselves and the way they are which comes from feeling that you're not complete and perfect in yourself then when they don't get well you may notice some energy disturbance, the outflow that's why outflows are called outflows

[74:31]

is that your energy gets knocked off when you spend time with people and wish that they would get better for example well and think it's a gain. Then your energy gets pushed around. But if you're with people and you really appreciate them the way they are and you want them to get well but you don't see it as a gain then you don't get these energy disturbances. The energy disturbances are a sign for you to say there's probably some gain here in my mind some place. I'm considering not visiting this person, I don't want to go visit this person I want to go visit somebody who is improving. Maybe there's some gain here and vice versa if you feel good about visiting the people who aren't getting better as you do about the people who are getting better and you do about the people who are getting worse if you feel good about these different groups of people on average taking other things not because the ones who are sick are cute and the ones who are getting better are ugly

[75:31]

but aside from those gains and losses it's basically wherever the person goes you feel equal devotion and your devotion doesn't get pushed around because of the trouble you get into around the gain and loss so after a while even somebody who you think is wonderful if you have this gain loss thing around them you start to notice that you might think that the person is killing you because you notice you get weaker and weaker the more time you spend with the person and you have to get away from them because you are draining yourself because of your gain loss thing with them so that's a way to sort of like ferret out that there's gain and loss not just concern not just wanting them to get well and in some ways we never know what's going to happen but when we kind of feel like it looks pretty much like this person's

[76:33]

not going to get better then in some ways maybe to some extent it gives you a break from the gain and loss thing then you just go visit them and it doesn't matter that they don't get better you keep being devoted to them however, that doesn't address the problem so we get some breaks sometimes because sometimes we just don't see things we realize there's no gain and loss in this situation there's never going to be a gain this is just about loving this person there's never going to be an improvement gain or anything but I still want to take care of them if there's a chance of improvement then that would push you into this gain and loss thing so it's okay to take care of people who you have no gain and loss issues with which is fine but it's like you're taking care of people who can improve who can potentially could get well then that's where we slip into the gain and loss in situations that could improve then we slip into it

[77:35]

usually so if we see the situation can't be improved because it's perfect and we felt that way about everything that would be good and then we can still hope that everybody was well and we wouldn't slip into it but anyway at this point it's a matter of trying to become aware of it and confessing and repenting it and there's lots of opportunities right? yes Martin I I'm kind of suffering over whether to bring this up because I was I guess I don't want to show off but the the faith mind doesn't it

[78:39]

like every mind over and over yeah yeah the faith in mind starts out and continues to say the way is not difficult except for picking and choosing that's the same teaching however we do pick and choose so the way is difficult the way becomes difficult because we do pick and choose so if you notice yourself picking and choosing you'll notice you're having difficulty right? these sesshins are not difficult if there's no picking and choosing but since you do do picking and choosing they sometimes get difficult and many people have attested to at the beginning of sesshin they're heavily into picking and choosing and it's really hard and then by the end of sesshin it's like did the pain go away or just not picking and choosing around the pain and usually that just not picking and choosing you settle in just like the Buddha he's walking through the forest

[79:41]

the pain comes the fear comes and he doesn't pick or choose so yeah it's the same teaching basically I have one question about teaching love like one thing that helps me is to understand it as a comparison you know if we compare to a situation you know say a person being better it's comparing mind and it's getting caught by it it's not just a comparison like right and left right and left I compare right to left it's getting into it like which way I'm going to go which way is best so the comparing mind can operate without getting caught in it and the way it can happen is mostly that we start to notice how we are caught in it and the more we notice how we are caught in it the less we're caught in it everybody's had some experience of being caught but not everybody's had experience

[80:41]

of noticing in detail how they're caught and usually you notice more detail when you notice it more times like noticing a million being caught in comparison you're more knowledgeable and free of it than noticing it three I'd like to have one more period of zazen before the before lunch so we have one period to sit together before so if we stop now that could happen is that ok? I am bound to save them

[81:51]

delusions are inexhaustible I am bound to end them by my power of compass I am bound to nurture them without a trace unsurpassable I am bound to save them without a trace unsurpassable I am bound

[82:17]

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