I was kind of torn last night about whether to have class this morning or have a morning of sitting. It's nice to have a morning of sitting. This would have been our last morning of sitting before Sashin. But I just felt like this is the last opportunity for us to be together in this way, so I went for this way. And I just wanted to acknowledge that Tracy will be leaving before Sashin. Thank you for coming to another January intensive and making a great effort with your superb health.

[01:01]

What is superb? Is that the word? And of course, also fragile. I didn't feel a need to necessarily say the same thing again, even though I could. I always enjoy saying it. One thing, though, that was brought up towards the end of our last meeting here by Abbas Linda Ruth was something about remedial practices. Do you remember? And so I looked up remedial. Remedial means one is to supply remedies and... But the other meaning is remedial is intended to correct or improve deficient skills in some specific area.

[02:23]

So remedy... and remedial turn on each other. Again, remedial can be to offer remedies. But I thought Linda Ru's question was something like, is there some remedial practices more in the line of improving skills, almost like preparatory to thinking, not thinking, non-thinking? like remedial improving skills for the sake of the essential or the pivotal activity of all Buddhas. For the activity of self is not self, is self. And that actually is the That's actually the remedy.

[03:28]

The remedy is thinking, not thinking, thinking, not thinking. That pivotal activity is the remedy. But there needs to be remedial work for the sake of the remedy. And the remedial work is to develop skills like the skill of receiving stillness of remembering stillness and receiving stillness, remembering stillness and receiving stillness and living in stillness and transmitting stillness. Those skills of compassion by which we remember to be still, to take our seat in the middle of our life generously, carefully, patiently, diligently, and calmly.

[04:31]

Those are remedial activities. We need to correct, constantly correct, not exactly improve, but correct and refresh and maintain and adjust. Again, someone said about the kitchen, in the kitchen now there's a practice of guiding while giving up control. So the people in the kitchen are guiding the meal and guiding the work and giving up trying to control. The expression used for our bodhisattva, when we speak of the three pure bodhisattva precepts, The expression used there is to embrace and sustain.

[05:33]

For example, embrace and sustain the forms and ceremonies, to embrace and sustain all wholesome activities, to embrace and sustain all beings. It doesn't say control the forms and ceremonies, control the people. control of the good. It's to embrace and sustain it, to nurture it, to care for it, to gather together, but in a guiding way rather than in a controlling way. These are, you could say, our remedial skills. These precepts are like improve our skills so that we can totally let things be and realize in that complete allowing things to be what they are, they're not what they are.

[06:36]

And that's the remedy, that pivotal activity. So I just popped in my mind the expression by Kodo Sawaki Roshi, which is settle the self on the self. So that's a remedial practice. Settling the self on the self. Settle the self on the self. That's an English translation of something in Japanese. Settle the self on the self and forget the self. Settle the self on the self and self drops away. Yes? The additional, is it Katagiri Roshi who added it or was it... What? I think maybe Katagiri Roshi added that, I'm not sure. But I think... Katagiri Roshi used to say that quite a bit.

[07:42]

Settle the self on the self and forget the self. I was also talking to someone about what we call, in Sanskrit, shamatha practice, tranquility practice. And he said maybe that I was emphasizing, that he thought maybe I was emphasizing shamatha practice. And, oh no, he said he was interested in that. I don't seem to be specific about shamatha practice. I didn't seem to be emphasizing that or something like that. And I thought, yeah, I don't... And I thought, well, maybe when I say remember stillness, that's shalmata practice. Just to remember that.

[08:42]

I usually speak of shalmata practice, which is tranquility practice, in a radical way from the Samadhi Nirmachanas Sutra by just saying, give up discursive thought. Or another one is, be mindful of the uninterrupted mind. It doesn't mean you ignore or turn away from the interrupted mind. Interrupted mind is each moment of consciousness arises and ceases. Consciousness is changing all the time. And you can be mindful of that. But the tranquility practice is to remember the mind that's not coming up and going away, the awareness that's always present. That's not a discursive awareness. So it's giving up discursive thought, giving up running around, giving up chasing around in consciousness that comes to fruit as tranquility. But also, maybe if we consistently remember stillness, that might be another way to give up discursive thought and

[09:56]

to enter into tranquility. And I also thought of the sutra where the question is asked, if you are able to be mindful on a consistent basis of giving up discursive thought, but the body and mind is not yet flexible and soft, and open. Is that tranquility? And then Sutra says, no, that's not. But it's like it in the sense that it is attending to the uninterrupted mind. It is attending to giving up discursive thoughts. So it's kind of like in accord with it. But shamatha is when you actually, when that practice comes to fruit in your body and mind are very flexible. And I would say

[10:57]

again, soft. And once again, I often quote the conversation between Dogen and his teacher. Dogen had heard about the bodhisattva's soft mind, flexible mind, and he asked his teacher, well, what is that? And Ru Jing said, it's the openness or the allowing of body and mind to drop off. So... In tranquility, we're kind of like if somebody said, you know, it would be all right if your body and mind dropped off now, you might say, sure. I can let that happen. I'm letting everything else happen. I'll let that happen. And so in tranquility, we're more open to the possibility of In tranquility, we have settled into our body and mind and relaxed with it through being generous and careful and patient and diligent.

[12:07]

Now we're actually relaxed with this body and mind and all its challenges. Still, there's difficulties, but we settle with them. If body and mind starts slipping away, we can say, thanks for visiting. And then there was a discussion with this person about the point that the thing I've been reciting over and over is remember stillness receive it because it's given to us we don't take it we don't go get it it's given to us it's transmitted to us and then we can live in it and then we can transmit it so the bodhisattva

[13:20]

is vowing to transmit it, but also to receive it, to receive and transmit. So we, in the first part of the intensive, we were reciting the self-receiving and employing, or you could say self-receiving and transmitting. Self-fulfillment is to receive stillness and to give stillness. Not to get stillness, and certainly not to take it, but receive it. And live in it and transmit it. Living in it is transmitting it. And then that's one more point which I've said is really hard to understand and believe, is that when we receive stillness, everybody receives stillness. And everybody receiving stillness... It's all receiving stillness. Your remembering stillness is my remembering stillness.

[14:26]

And I think some Zen students would feel good about that. Oh, everybody's receiving stillness, and me too? Fine. The thing that people feel kind of sometimes uneasy about is Well, I'm happy, and some people say this to me, I'm really happy to receive stillness. I feel so blessed that I can receive stillness. But I wonder about all the people who can't receive stillness. People who just, they can't, they haven't heard about receiving stillness. So they don't seem to be receiving it. And that's the hard part, is to understand that there is a teaching which says your receiving stillness is others receiving stillness. And what the Buddha's receiving of stillness is, is other people receiving it. The Buddha's receiving of liberation is other... When other people are liberated, that's the kind of liberation Buddha has, is other people being liberated.

[15:39]

And again, there's the pivot. So anyway, like I said, I didn't really feel like I needed to say this stuff over and over. But I started out by doing it. Really, I kind of wanted to just open up for discussion with Anne. When you're talking about silence, it seems to me that that's why we're so drawn to nature and we want to take pictures of it. And really, it's like we want to take that moment and bring it back. And yet we just file it away so often. And I know during part of the meditation, I had this image of the flower that I had once taken. And I could just hold that in my own image. I think there's this little moment before we say, oh, I want to get a picture of that, that we recognize that stillness.

[16:51]

So in our last kind of we're going to have some more events, but this is kind of an informal venue. Is there anything you'd like to express to your comrades, your Zen comrades here at this time? Yes. Just a question you asked about this fear, the fear that may arise in letting go of the clinking to the self. Yeah, right. Sometimes when we talk about this, some people, even like newcomers, they hear it and they're Their mind kind of opens to this, and then they inform us that they're afraid that they'll be annihilated or overwhelmed.

[18:03]

That's quite common. To the people who actually hear really well and really take it in and try it right away, they just say, OK, and then they go, whoa. St. John of the Cross is speaking about the dark night of the soul. St. John of the Cross, yeah. Dark night of the soul. One interpretation I have had is that before, and this is more in tradition where there is the idea that you get into enlightenment from non-enlightenment. Yeah, via negativa. Via negativa. Yeah, the path to enlightenment. via negation. In some sense, . Yeah. The enlightenment of the dark night of the soul, so to speak, with each other, or in some sense, or there is this, or a bit like, for example,

[19:19]

For example, Sartre also was talking about nausea, the kind of existential nausea. Or I wonder whether this can be interpreted in terms of a kind of friction between the self-consciousness and the dark forest, so to speak, in some sense. The idea that we feel in some sense that there is something going beyond this earth which is there and provides this sense of fear or nausea or melancholia. But in some sense, we are on a kind of edge, but we may not realize this. And I wonder whether this can be understood in terms of this . Well, I I often mention the word nausea.

[20:25]

You know, what I said a couple days ago, people often say to me, I'm sick of myself. Another way to say it is, I'm sick of self-consciousness. I'm sick of karmic consciousness. So one understanding that I had of nausea is just, I'm sick of being trapped in this self-concern. Me, me, me, I'm kind of sick of that. It's kind of nauseating. how self-concerned I am. But now you're bringing up another dimension of the nausea, which might be the nausea of sensing that this enclosure is in some relationship to something really big. And that could be like the nausea of being on a ship on the big ocean. And this little ship, this little enclosure, it's kind of nauseating to be trapped on that. but also it's constantly being turned about by this huge thing. And so that kind of makes us sick too, is that we sense that this enclosure is in relationship to something moving it around.

[21:37]

It's not only confining, it's kind of agitated. But this is the place where we practice compassion. There's also the expression, the boat of compassion is not rowed over smooth waters. So the boat of compassion is a little bit hard to find a way to not get sick. But then there's this thing, in English we have this term, sea legs. Do you have that in Italian? Sea, ocean, ocean legs. Do you have that term? So in English, we have the word sea legs, which means when you first get on the boat, when the boat moves, your legs maybe are stiff. So your stomach moves when the boat moves. But as you are on the boat longer, your legs learn how to be shock absorbers. So the legs move, and your inside stays still, so you don't get sick.

[22:41]

I have this experience on the analysis sheet. Yeah. So that's kind of how, again, when you learn that, that's a remedial practice. You don't have the skill to be in the karmic consciousness, which is confining and unstable. So you do have these skills to find a way to be... You don't make it stable, but you have a way to adjust to the instability and the suffocating, unstable confinement of consciousness. These are skills to be settled in that space and then, in a sense,

[23:44]

the confinement drops away. And the communion between this confinement and all other beings is revealed by finding our way to be in this confined, unstable space, which we kind of know is confining, but we sometimes think it's stable, which makes it more unstable. I should say, it makes the instability more shocking when we deny it. But when you see legs, your legs are saying, hey, this is unstable and we're going to adjust. And then it's still unstable, but you can be upright and balanced and steady and calm in the middle of the instability. But it's a skill. Yes? So you're supposed to relate to stillness.

[25:06]

Keeping your eye on the horizon is kind of like remembering the uninterrupted mind. The horizon is not jumping all over the place, but on the road, It's rough, yeah. There's a challenge of practice in a way. Yes. The state of dreamless deep sleep came up a couple of times. Yes. I was wondering, there are those people who have meditated for a long time and they have heard that some people say there's like a continuity of awareness going on, even in that state, like people say for 24 hours, there's this continuous awareness, no matter if it's the waking state or the feeling state or the dreamless deep sleep. And I think you said that there is no clearing up in the forest, no self-consciousness during deep sleep.

[26:12]

So how can there be any memory of Well, if I could go back to the image of the clearings and the dark forest, the memory is in the dark forest. Our memory is not in our consciousness. Like right now, I cannot consciously access everything on my memory. But I have ways of asking the dark forest to send me messages about my memory. of the history of the world is in the dark forest. And Ito has had a different access to it, and we can call it up. And it's also that the dark forest includes our body, which is particularly our sense organs. So the consciousness can ask the dark forest to send it memory data. And so our body and our

[27:13]

unconscious cognitive processes, that's where the memory is. And it's constantly sending us stories about our memory, but we can also make requests, and it can hear us, and it will sometimes give us, like we say, what's so-and-so's name, and it doesn't tell us anything. And then if we're nice, and relax, and say, well, whenever you're ready, then it sends it. And as our body changes, from childhood to adulthood to old age, our memory process changes. Children have different memories, well, than they will later. And older people lose their memories because their body changes. Their sense organs change, their body changes, and they lose certain memories. But they also, certain memories are connected to certain parts of their body that change less. So they can remember exactly.

[28:17]

That's one reason to really ask questions of your elders and your parents and grandparents and uncles and aunts. Because they can tell you about their childhood really well. And you're not going to be able to ask them pretty soon. So ask them about their childhood, and they can tell you really well. If you ask them what they did yesterday, you know probably more than they do. But they know a lot about your early history of your family, so ask them. Anyway, back to your question. I'm saying that in the 30 verses, it says that this... three transformations of consciousness, which is the resultant, which is the dark forest, the mentation, which is thinking consciousness, and awareness of the concept of the object, which is the sense consciousnesses.

[29:26]

And it says that this mentation is there except in deep dreamless sleep, certain concentration states and organic brain damage. So that can go away. It basically says it's always there, except so occasionally it's gone. So when we're dreaming and through the rest of the day, it's there. But the storehouse consciousness is always there. If the storehouse consciousness goes away, you die. So people in Coleman still have the storehouse. They still have the dark forest. And they still have memories. But the memories are not being put up into consciousness. Usually a person in a coma, they don't have consciousness. But their memories are there. And actually, when they come out of the coma, they still have their memories. They don't lose their memories by being in a coma for months or years.

[30:28]

And also we find out from some people who are in comas that occasionally Their consciousness came back, but people didn't know. And they can tell us some stuff, some new conscious events that occurred while they were in coma. So do you have more questions about that? Thank you. Yes? I just want to respond, because you so beautifully expressed what my experience has been. I'm going to try to talk for a minute about this. I have been living the confining, supplicating nature of my karmic consciousness by wearing a mask. And it's been an amazing teacher because I... Do you have any more of those masks that we could use? I do buy the microphone.

[31:35]

There's no escape. It's all hell right here. I had to get beyond the fear that I was suffocating. Wow. And all of the thoughts that came up about that. The blame for why that's happening. This is a new thing in my life. This reactivity to smoke. And it's got to be somebody's fault that it's way to be fixed. And oh, poor me. I don't matter, I'm not worthy, and since it's more important than I am. All of this train of things that I needed to sit in the middle of that has allowed me to let those things go because I was making this choice to be in that space because of what it gives me, gives me.

[32:39]

And when you mentioned the rocky road of compassion, about experiencing that, because how to be compassionate to myself, how to receive the compassion that was being given to me, as I know you here are grappling with this whole issue of incense and the tradition and its value are part of our practice and its impact on separate units. This is a very big, messy issue. And it just so beautifully illustrates that rocky boat of compassion. This life is messy. It's not easy to figure these out. And I also just wanted to express my deep gratitude for the ongoing conversation that was allowed and invited and engaged in that helped us come to some place that I felt the compassion and I, at the same time, did not feel like I was being the same kind of self-centeredness that I came into it with, that I let go of that defined.

[34:06]

a way to coexist in sangha. And it's been a very deep, beautiful practice. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'm so happy that we got to this point. Yes? OK. I don't know if past lives are agnostic on that. I have no idea. But I was wondering, as far as you know, in terms of some Buddhist thought, if there's a connection with past lives and this dark forest. For example, if someone hears over to the first time, like is there a, yeah, is there a connection with the dark forest? For some people, I mean, There is a standard Buddhist message, which is in various parts of the recorded teachings, which is that the dark forest is the results of the karma of all living beings from beginningless time.

[35:25]

So for example, English is... is the result of a lot of karma. It's the result of Latin and Anglo-Saxon and French and all that other languages. And they also are the result of lots of previous languages which are spoken by previous. So we have this ability and we have a nervous system that can use language. That's the result of past karma. of our ancestors. So the dark forest is sort of, to a great extent, it is the result of past karma. And part of what's in there, yeah, basically what's in there is a result of all beings, including beings who have different kind of karma from us now, or even like it's the result of the karma of dogs and cats and cows and flies and rats.

[36:34]

All these beings contribute to the creation of the dark forest. And we're contributing to it now and now and now. We're transforming it and contributing to it now. But everyone who lived before us has also contributed to it. So that's one reason we call it a storehouse. It's a storehouse of my memories, your memories. And it's a restore house, and our memories are one of the consequences of our conscious mind. So I met you before, and that left a memory. In my consciousness, my consciousness had this activity of seeing your face in Brooklyn. And so in my unconscious and in my body, there was a memory of you. So when I saw you, I remembered you. But even before I saw you, I still had a memory of you.

[37:36]

You know Camille? But sometimes you know Camille? Who's Camille? So because my karmic consciousness engaged you before, part of the consequence of that is a memory of you. And of course, the more you know someone, the more memories you have of them. But those are the results. of your conscious experience, they're not actually what the person was. They're the results of what you thought they were. So that's right out of the books. Another version of it is that's from the Abhidharma Kosha, one of the important scholastic texts. And then from the Abhattamsaka Sutra, there's a chapter called The Formation of Worlds. And at the beginning of the chapter, it says that the worlds, all the worlds, are the result of the past karma and vows of all living beings.

[38:48]

So aspiration also creates worlds, wishing that all beings would be happy. When we chanted this morning, that transformed the world, those chance. That our karmic consciousness we're wishing well has an effect on the world, on the formation of the world, our wishing that way. Yes, Lauren? Quick question. So is it all just one big dark force, or each other at all? Well, oh, there's two parts. There's a shared part and an unshared part. The unshared part is what I would normally call my body. My body is not, you know, when I look at my hands and so on, that's a mental image of my body, what I've seen. My actual body is my ability to touch and smell and taste and smell and hear and see.

[40:00]

That's my body. And the way I think about that is not my body. But the way I actually am sensitive physically to data, that's my body. And in a sense, I don't share that body with you. Although that body, to make things a little complicated, that body includes your body. But you don't know what I'm smelling right now. And I don't know what you're smelling. And the smelling is up in our consciousness to some extent. But the ability to smell is in the forest. The sensitivity, the physical sensitivity, is not conscious. And we don't share that. But the data, the gases or the liquids that we smell and taste, those we share. So we can share our smell in the room. That we share, and that's the result

[41:02]

of all of our karma. And we all have access to it. But our access to it physically is not shared. Our sense organs are not shared. So part of the dark forest is shared, and some of it's not. That's dealt with in chapter one of the summary of Mahayana by Asanga. Yes? Louis? I was staring down. But before that you had your hand up, right? That's right. Yeah. I had that memory. Yep. I really like the ashen image. I wanted to share maybe a little different what occurred to me. By the way, that is part of a poem which is in Chapter Case 41 of the Book of Serenity. Yes?

[42:03]

sea legs, but I found that from my best set of experiences, I would probably describe it more as not so much the skill of getting sea legs, but just giving up and tirelessly. Finding myself just sort of rolling around in my... Yeah, that'll work too. Sometimes you give up and then you find your sea legs, but not by trying to find them. You just finally vomited enough, you're done. You vomited so thoroughly, there's no resistance to this ship. Actually, the stiff legs is kind of a resistance to the movement, right? So when you vomited completely, OK, whatever. And then you go with the flow and you're not getting pushed around anymore.

[43:16]

Yeah. We don't do that anymore. We just remember stillness. Yeah. And we let that mindfulness guide us to where we are. We don't push ourselves to where we are. We learn that skill. I see I'll be right back. Somebody over here? Yes, Jared? So the physical world, if it's all our karma, so then how does that work? created bodies and minds that one take on. So how does that work? Karma creating physical, like a physical world. One closet is that, well, what I've always thought is the physical world is here before I was here.

[44:19]

Right. Most people think that, that the physical world was there before we were there. That's another amazing teaching, which goes with the other one I mentioned. at the last session, which is the one I mentioned before was all Buddhas are practicing together with each person. That's one part. The other part is the mountains and rivers are born together with each person. And it says most people think that the mountains are there first and then you came along. People say that there were mountains before people, right? So this is a teaching we're saying. doesn't argue with that, that there are mountains before people. It just says the mountains and rivers right now are born together with us. We're not born before them or they're before us. And then again, there's a remedial, we have to do remedial practices to let that teaching sink into us.

[45:23]

But there is that teaching that the mountains and rivers are not born before us or after us. And we, not before or after them. We aren't born into a place where there's no mountains and rivers. Like when I came out of the surgery, I came with a world. And also, usually when I get up in the morning, I don't go, wow, a world. I don't usually do that. A world. But when I came out of the anesthetic, I did go, oh wow, a world, amazing. I was really amazed. It's partly, maybe you could say it was partly because when you went away, you knew you might not come back. It was that, what do you call it, kind of like hypnotic suggestion that you might not come back and then, oh, I'm back. The world and me arise together.

[46:28]

That's the teaching. And that's in... That expression is in Only a Buddha and a Buddha. That chapter by Dogen. The mountains are born together with each person. The Buddhas are practicing together with each person. And also, I mentioned before that materiality is a deceptive form of mind. And vice versa. When there's material, there's mind. When there's mind, there's material. Mind is material. Material is mind. But energy is mass. But when we look at mass, we don't see the energy. Mass is a highly, extremely concentrated form of energy. Energy is a dispersed form of matter. And they have this extremely powerful relationship.

[47:28]

And mind and material, or mind and body are like that too. When we see body, it doesn't look like mind. But sometimes we see body in our consciousness, it doesn't look like mind, but obviously it is mind. And then other times we see mind and it doesn't look like body, but it is body. Like if you look at, you can look and see mind, when you look at neurology, how it's behaving, suddenly you see, oh, it's a mind. The neuroscientists are looking at the neural process and they suddenly wake up to a mind there. So mind and body are everything that appears is mind, everything that appears is body. And they're in a dynamic, pivotal relationship with each other. Mountains and rivers are born, they're another version of me that don't look like me.

[48:30]

And I'm another version of mountains and rivers. I don't look like a mountain. But there's no mountains without me. Until there's no me, and then there's still no mountains. How's that? Here it is. I think you were next, yes? So we had this teaching... early on about the worlds, the individual world. Yeah. And you put them up on the board, and Simon asked a question about the big world and the littler worlds. But the teaching was all of those worlds are initially interdependent, that's fine. But we also have this experience, I have this experience, that there is this big world, and it's called me, and Everything else, all the other worlds are revolving around it. And what's become clear in this intensive is that the only thing, it seems to me, that interrupts that kind of, looking at things that way, you're in the center and everything's revolving around you, is this conversation.

[49:55]

That's the only thing that just blows that out of the water. Well, it liberates you from being confined by that vision. It doesn't blow it out of the water. The conversation doesn't destroy the person. It's the liberation of the person. and who they're in conversation with. It doesn't blow anything out of the water. The conversation is the process of liberation. And so now I would say to you in this conversation, you are at the center and everything is revolving around you. But everything that's revolving around you, you're revolving around. Everything that's revolving around you is also a center. that everything is revolving around. And that's why the conversation liberates us from any confinement in our vision.

[51:06]

Because we have a limited vision. We do have that. And that's not going to get blown out of the water, except with brain damage, deep dreamless sleep, or certain samadhis, but when those things are over, we have it back again. It's not to get rid of it, it's to be kind to it and settle in it, kind to it and settle in it, kind to it and settle in it, and then it drops away. Without being changed, it's no longer a hindrance. And the way it drops away is in conversation. do it inside the enclosure, it doesn't drop away, but we can be kind to the enclosure and then it drops away, but not by our power. The power of reality, which we're allowing to function. Finally. And fearlessly.

[52:09]

Yes? The clearing is where there is a sense of self and a sense of self and a world. It's self-consciousness. It's karmic consciousness. The clearing is karmic consciousness. And in karmic consciousness, things are appearing and disappearing. There's appearances there. And there's a self. And with the self comes a sense, what we call self-view, which is view of the self, but also it seems like things are being observed through this self, which seems to be there. There are objects.

[53:11]

Objects. Objects. Objects. Well, it's more like self as a subject. Like there's a subject in this field and the subject is called I or me. And then there's me and then mine. Some of the objects are mine. That's the clearing. Me and mine. And self-consciousness. And there's this intimate relationship between the forest and that clearing. And everything that happens in the clearing transforms the forest. And the forest supports the arising, the apparent arising, of another clearing, with things arising in the clearing and dropping in the clearing. And then that transforms the forest, which supports the arising of another clearing. And there's innumerable clearings in the forest. And the clearings are all transforming the forest together.

[54:12]

according to their karma. And so people who have similar karma, like us, we have similar karma. When we speak English, we have similar karma. So by speaking English, we transform the forest in an English transforming way, and Chinese transforms the forest in another way. And the linguistic activities of karmic consciousness support more linguistic activity and current consciousness. We're not going to stop that. And the linguistic activity and the consequences of linguistic activity tend to promote more consciousnesses that are enclosed. Linguistic activity creates enclosures. And we're not trying to stop that. We're trying to illuminate it because the way it actually happens is not confining. It's It's all inclusive and all included.

[55:14]

And we can open to that. And karmic consciousness is where we try to control karmic consciousness and get rid of, like some people try to get rid of language as a hope to become free of language. But I think another path is, by studying language, you become free of language. And studying it with these remedial skills. So you are saying that you have more access to a perception of an arising

[56:16]

Are you saying that you do perceive the beginning of an object? Well, apparently some Buddhist meditators have seen what they thought, what they perceived. Or say it this way. Before I say it this way, let me say it another way. Which is that perception is part of karma. That perception is to grab a sign of something. It's kind of like a mental act, perception is. It's not like perception means that what you're perceiving is really that way. It's more like we have the equipment to make things into something that we can see that way. We have the power to... Well, like, you know, we have the power to... limit something into a form that we can grasp.

[57:22]

We have the power to find a sign in the world and then say, grasp the sign, and that's perception. But that doesn't mean the thing's a sign. So some people can grasp the sign of a beginning of an object. Like it was yellow, and then it was blue, and I saw when it became blue. I perceive that. I have a mind which can catch the beginning of blue. And then I saw the end of blue. Some other people, maybe like you, are not into beginning and endings of colors. So that's not your perception. That's not the way you trained your perception. Or like, one time my wife took me down to the garden. She wanted to smell roses. And so I went out and smelled the roses. And the more I smelled the roses, the more surprised I got. Somehow my perceptual equipment started to create perceptions that I never had before.

[58:28]

But were they not there before I, were those odors or that possible perception's orders not there? Or was I just didn't have the perceptual skills? could have a special course where we now start to try to look at the beginning of colors and the end of colors. And then they say, oh, I see. But it's not that there really is a beginning and end of colors. It's more like we have some people can perceive that. And some people say it's a good thing to learn about how the mind works is to see beginnings and ends of things. The beginning, you see appearances. Oh, yeah. Do you see that? Yep. Did you see the beginning? Nope. Did you see the end of it? Nope. I just saw another appearance. Well, we could do a training where let's start now trying to perceive or let's try to manipulate or imagine the beginning and the end. But that would just be like learning a new way of perceiving.

[59:34]

And when I say just, I don't mean that that's not a great feat. I mean, it would... I mean, that's what it is. It's learning a new way to perceive. And I think learning new ways it perceives helps us understand that perception is actually illusion. Like we say, it's like when you go out in the ocean, away from land, and you look around, the ocean looks like a circle of water. Under those circumstances, that's the way you perceive it. But the ocean is not a circle of water, but you perceive it that way. And we can do that with a lot of things. We do that with a lot. The world we perceive is not our experience. Our experience is an ocean. But we make it into circles of water. Our consciousness makes it into perceptible circles. But we have a teaching which says, fine, but that's not what the ocean is. And the more you let that circle of water be a circle of water, the more you're ready to...

[60:41]

let that circle of water as the world drop away. Not a circle of water. Without destroying it. Without blowing it out of the water. Yes, Eric. So I enjoyed your story last time of the time you spent with your grandmother walking back and forth with the boat in. Yeah. I want to ask a little bit more about that and maybe something more general, and that is I'm wondering if that story changed a little bit, like you have a flight to catch or maybe more generally? Yeah. The parents have flights to catch. The parents have to get the kids to school. The grandparents aren't going anyplace. They're just here. So I guess that's just to build on Lauren's question from last time. Yeah. The child has what they want. Okay, so let's say I do have a flight to catch. And then can I guide the child to the airport rather than try to control them?

[61:46]

If you respect anything, you realize it's not controllable. If you look carefully, one way to respect me is maybe to look really, really carefully. If you look really, really carefully, you see that you're not in control. You influence everything, but you can't even control what your influence is. guiding the child across the street, guiding the child to the playground, guiding the child to the car, guiding the child to the airport, guiding yourself. We're working to get to the airport. But maybe, unbeknownst to you, the flight has been canceled. And if you were mean to the child, and then you got to the airport, so you know... you controlled the child to get to the airport and the plane wasn't there, you'd feel like, I really regret kind of coercing this child to get in the car. It was really a waste of, it wasn't necessary. We could have just had a nice time being late to the airport.

[62:50]

And then we were very lovingly together, you know, missing the flight, which didn't take off. And I'm really glad that I was kind to the child. Now, what if you missed the flight? And I guess that's, at this point in my life, I would rather miss the flight than be unkind to anyone. And if I missed the flight, some other people might get quite upset, like the people in Europe are waiting for me to get there. And then I say, well, this thing happened, and I couldn't find a way to be kind to this situation and still make the flight. I'm sorry. Want to hear a story? Yeah. So this woman went to study with a guru in India, in the part of India that's, I guess, near the Ganga River.

[63:57]

And she was studying with him. And then the guru was going to be a big ceremony. And the guru and all her students were going to the ceremony and when they got to the river there was a woman who was really ill and couldn't walk couldn't get across the river and she asked for somebody to carry across the river and the guru says I can't do that for you right now but I have a lot of disciples who will be able to help you and one after another had some reason why they couldn't help her And the newest one said, well, I'm not so necessary, so anyway, I can carry her. So then the most junior disciple, this new one, picked the woman up and started to carry her across the river. But then she started to feel funny, like she noticed her feet weren't on the ground anymore, that they were rising up in the sky.

[65:01]

And she realized that this woman was the great Bodhisattva. But she didn't get to the ceremony. And so I guess at this point I'd rather not overlook this person so I can go to the big important ceremony. That's what I would want to do. And people might get upset, but you know. So grandparents don't have so much more to accomplish and so maybe they can just walk back and forth and then maybe my daughter come and run and say, you know, you got to get her to the park. I guess I have a more general follow-up question and that is when for children that are young and trying to, in kindness, have them understand consequences.

[66:08]

Yeah, yeah. So how does that look to you, that influence the whole control? Well, I think I use the example. When it comes time to bedtime with my granddaughter, she seems quite amenable to, not just because of me, but other comments that have been made to her. If I say if she wants to eat certain things late at night, I think she actually doesn't want to have a hard time going to sleep either. So I say, if you eat at this time, it's not going to work. I just don't feel right about giving you this kind of stuff at this time of night, because it'll be really hard to go to sleep, and you know that's really painful. So that's kind of a discussion of consequences, of possible consequences, and why I don't want to do that. And then I can look at myself and see if I'm trying to control her or me. And in the end, I guess... I'd rather fail at having an easy time going to sleep than have her feel like I was overpowering her or I didn't respect her.

[67:20]

Because that's the most important thing to teach. If a child stays up all night one night, more or less, it's not very big compared to somebody teaching them love. You know, they're going to eventually go to sleep sometime. But is anybody teaching them love? Is anybody teaching them that being kind to you is more important than getting you to school on time? You know, I really do want to get you to school on time. And if I don't, it's going to be a big problem at school. And also, I'm going to be late for work. You know, you're talking about consequences. But, you know, if the child was sick, you just forget about all that. And you still get in trouble. But what's important is the health of this child. And to hurt the child to get him to school on time, I just don't want to do that anymore. Even though it's a real hassle not to make it.

[68:28]

But maybe suddenly it'll turn to it's not a real hassle. And it's also not a real hassle. In other words, it is a real hassle. So if I'm willing to accept the real hassle for the sake of the Dharma, then the remedy kicks in. But that's the question of faith. Was there someone there? Yes? So Ben raises a question. Last night when I was leaving the dining room, Poliopi was going up the stairs to the upper stairs where the office is. and I was going to go up the stairs to go back to my room, but she didn't want me to go up the stairs. No. And I thought about it and I thought, well, I could go back and go around, but then I thought, but why should I do that? Shouldn't I just go up the stairs? So I just walked past her and I said, I just went up the stairs. Would you have not gone up the stairs? I don't know what I would have done.

[69:29]

I really don't know what I would have done. I could go up the stairs to play with her and not try to control her. And I could let her try to control me. Again, with my granddaughter, I let her try to control me. And she's very happy to try to control me. I'm her horse. She says, go that way, go that way. And I say, you know, it's easier for me if you could just say left or right. She said, I don't know how to do left and right. Or pull my head that way or that way. And she's into controlling me. But I still also can say, like after I had broke my leg, I said, I can't be your horse for a while. And then she sees me and she says, can you be horsey? And I say, no. And she said, well, can you be camel? I say, no.

[70:33]

So she, you know, I'm not, I really, again, I'm in this precious, this position of if she says no to come up the stairs, I can, I don't have to get up the stairs. But I can walk up, I can talk to her, I can have a conversation with her. The conversation with her is more important than going up the stairs or not going up the stairs. That's what I'm doing with her. And she's trying to control me. And I'm in conversation with somebody who rightly understands that I'm there to serve her. But she's not exactly... She's also saying she's not exactly in control of me. But she... I'm her servant. But she's not in control of her servant. So I thought of that. I thought of explaining to Calliope that it's okay for me to go up the stairs. But then I thought... But I don't know if she can understand me. And if she responded to me, I know, or I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to understand her.

[71:38]

So I didn't know how to understand her. Here's what I believe in. I believe that if I can remember stillness and receive it, then I can practice it. And from that place of stillness, you'll have a creative response that will be just right for Calliope. And also you'll be teaching her, here's an adult who she's giving instructions to, and the adult is someone who remembers stillness and then gives a spontaneous response for her to then interact with and say no again, maybe. Who knows what she'll do? But you're teaching her that you're not trying to control her or yourself, but you're taking care of yourself and her, and the appropriate response to her wishes and her desires and her instructions is coming up again and again. And she's learning that. She's learning that when she gives people instructions, she's learning different ways that people are responding.

[72:46]

And some people are teaching her the Buddha way. That's what's important to me. And I would like to be able just to maybe never get up the stairs, But the thing is, probably eventually, Calliope's parents will come and take her away. So you probably will be up the stairs. But I would like to be able to just stand there and converse with her forever. And people might come and take me away, too. They're not in control of me, but they can take me away. But that doesn't mean they're in control of me. That just means they're there while I'm being taken away. Yes, Sarah? There's a child who doesn't want to be there.

[73:54]

It's like the airport thing. I feel like there's a way that I can't afford a child to let them be unhappy and to get the groceries. Yeah, I think so too. There might be, maybe not. Maybe there won't be. Being there with unhappiness or letting go. You know, the other options I've seen are like people getting really bad at the kid, right? Or me getting mad at the kid. So trying to control the kid. Like, I don't want to be here. Or separating, which is also, in my experience, it's kind of trying to control them by cutting off. Right? So influencing some painful consequence. Or that's not even experience. But there's a way of seeing other people do it, the quality of seeing somebody with a very unhappy child and not having the unhappiness control them.

[74:59]

The adult? Yes. And the adult not controlling the child. I've seen that too. So I wonder if there's, you just didn't mention the possibility of actually going to the airport and loving the child and their happiness also. You and the child have tickets to the airport, and you want to go to the airport with the child, and the child maybe doesn't want to go. But you think, actually, it'll be OK if the child went to the airport with you and they don't want to go. And I'm saying, I would rather miss the flight than control the child.

[76:02]

But I can take an unhappy child with me without controlling them. I can guide them to the airport and they're not happy to go and I'm not And I really feel like I'm not controlling them. And I can also feel, even if they're happy, that I'm controlling them. And I would like to teach them that I can go with them to the airport, and they don't want to go to the airport, and I'm with them, not trying to control them, and we're going to the airport. And I'm not in control of me either. But we are going to the airport, it looks like. Looks like we're going. And one of us, or both of us, is in pain. Maybe it's nice that both of us are. And we're going to the airport in pain, and I'm with you. That's the main thing. I'm with you, and I'm always going to be with you, and I'm trying to not... I have impulses to control you, but I'm letting go of those. Mostly I'm with you, and we're together, and we seem to be doing this.

[77:07]

And the teaching they're getting is, mommy's not trying to control me, but mommy and I are going to the airport, and I'm unhappy about going to the airport. Now maybe the child thinks mommy's controlling me, but maybe she thinks mommy's making me go to the airport, but it isn't just mommy that's making this airport thing happen. And mommy knows that. Mommy's not making this happen all by herself. The baby's doing it too. We're all doing this together. And if we get there on time or not, we're going. And I'm guiding you, I am, and you're guiding me. And we're going, it looks like. And then suddenly we're in a traffic jam and we're not going. And I'm not in control of the traffic jam. And we're sitting there and we're not going any place and we're both unhappy with being trapped on the freeway.

[78:12]

And then we get to the airport and maybe the flight hasn't taken off yet. And we go. I don't know. But the point is we've had a really good time suffering together. And it wasn't like she was suffering and I wasn't. We were suffering together and I was, because I have more remedial training, I was able to be kind to myself and the child in this suffering situation. That's what we learned. Okay? Yes. There's a story, and I can't remember the story, but it's a Frankie story with a donkey, some kind of donkey. Yeah, right, donkey. And I was hoping you could tell it because I thought it was germane, but I'm not even sure. They're all germane. So one of my times when... In this case, I wasn't the horsey.

[79:13]

I was the donkey. And she was riding the donkey. And... What did the donkey say? I don't know. Maybe she said... donkey go left and the donkey said, I can't go left. And she said, donkeys don't talk. Yes. Deb? Yes. So how would you handle the situation where your child is also present and you are... I'm the father of the mother, maybe? You're the grandfather of the child. Mother or father is also present.

[80:14]

You are trying to show your love and not control. Mom or dad comes in a more controlling way. Maybe, yeah. Grandchild looks at you like, help me. Well, so far that hasn't happened. That does happen, though, sometimes. My granddaughter's older brother says... I can do no wrong with granddaddy, which is true. He's never done anything wrong with his granddaddy. But his mother has a different relationship. She was a single mother for quite a while. It was the two of them. It was an incredibly intimate relationship. And one time, we were at Whole Foods, the one on California Street, and he went out You know, there's a waiting area, and he went out into the parking lot, which has moving cars, and she really, she did not control him. I don't know if she thought she was going to control him, but she was very harsh towards him, like, not go.

[81:19]

You know, it was very intense. I don't know if it is possible to say something like that without trying to control, but I never, I've never had to do anything like that with him. But I was there when she did that. I've never needed to do that. But with her I did one time. She was walking into the street one time, and I just, I roared, no. I had no ill will. But was I trying to control her? I don't know. I was definitely wanting her to stop and not go in the street. And I don't say I controlled her. And I don't know if I was trying to, but I definitely wanted her to stop. And I thought, maybe if I said no, she would stop. And she did. And never again did she walk into the street ahead of me. And she didn't cry or anything. She just got the message. And one more story about my grandson in this regard.

[82:22]

But anyway, it is when the parents... But also the parents... are very appreciative of me taking care of the grandchildren. So they often, when I'm around or when my wife's around, they're generally less, they're generally, they're more relaxed too. So I don't see a lot of that impulse to control the children when we're around, sort of backing them up and being more, I could say, allowing. But anyway, I have this story about my grandson. We were on Stockton Street in Chinatown in San Francisco. And he wanted to go on the street. Stockton Street's very busy almost all day long with lots of grocery trucks and stuff. He wanted to go on the street. And I wanted him not to go on the street. And I wanted to relate to him without overpowering him.

[83:24]

But I realized after a while that I was just kind of finding sneaky ways to try to control him. I just didn't have the understanding at that time that wishing him to not go into the street and protecting him was not a matter of control. That protection doesn't have to be control. And there is protection, but there's not control. You can protect somebody and they can still get hurt. Like you can step between somebody and some danger, and they still get hurt. But you did protect them. You could say unsuccessfully, but your action was a protecting action. But you cannot prevent children from never getting hurt, from ever getting hurt. But you can protect them all day long. You can protect people all day long without getting into control. So anyway, I found some way. I didn't overpower them. He didn't feel, he wasn't upset, but I found various ways to kind of like trick him into not going in the street without overpowering him.

[84:31]

And then what did he do? He turned in the other direction from the street and went into the stores. And it's even more disastrous there. It's hassling the store people. And then again, how can I protect them from him? Some time later, not too much later, I realized what I think I really should have done with him. I should have gone into the street with him. And that's what I... From then on, that's the way I related to him. Rather than try to stop him from doing things, I go with him. Which means still that he's not completely safe on the sidewalk. He's very unsafe in the street by himself. But with me in the street, it's about like being on the sidewalk. If I would take his hand and go into the street, he would understand the street better. He would see that it's not a playground. It's not fun out there. And it's dangerous. He would see that. But he would have me with him there, so it would be a lesson.

[85:37]

I don't push him into the street to get the lesson, but if he wants to go, you want to go, okay, I'll go with you. And we go in there and he can see. Oh, okay. This is not fun. We go back. He's trying to learn, and I can help him. And we've done various adventures here at Green Gulch that are kind of scary, and I didn't stop him, but I went with him. And on every case, when it got to the dangerous part, he's the one who decided this is not... But he had me there to discover that. Not to say, you're not going to like that. That's not going to be fun. I go with them. And it's been working out really well. Guiding, giving up, trying to control. Trying to protect, giving up, trying to control. And the parents, again, are quite a bit younger, and they haven't gone through those times of, they haven't learned, they haven't learned from regretting many times

[86:47]

to control the child. They haven't learned that they're really sorry about that. I've seen some parents try to control their kids and then later they learned that was really, that was really mean. I'm so sorry. That was a bad lesson. But the grandparents have already done that. Yeah, yeah, it's hard, yeah. Yes. Just as a parent, but as a person, you're putting all these tests where you're all these different ages and you fail, if you will, or you do something you later regret. But you only learn to regret it when you later learn that there was another option. So it's like a painful human condition. You have to go through these times to learn that you maybe would have done differently.

[87:51]

Well, that's one route. Sometimes you realize right at the time. Sometimes you see this is stupid and then you accept the other alternative which you didn't want to do. Like you heard the story about my dog named Lara. I'll tell the short version. The climax, or one of the climaxes, was she was pregnant and she was about to have her puppies, and she was oozing from her rear lots of red material. I don't know if it was blood and other things coming out her rear end, dripping on the floor and stuff. So I kept her in the kitchen, which has a linoleum floor, easy to clean up. When she wasn't pregnant, she hung out on my bed a lot. And I did not want her on her bed at the time. So, you know, that was that. And I was kind of controlling.

[88:52]

And I didn't get it. I didn't get... If I was controlling, I didn't get it. I didn't get how ugly it was. It seemed all right to be in the kitchen. But then I came home and she was up in the bed on top of my pillows, my white pillows. And there was red stuff all over the pillows. And there was the option to say, oh, darling, how creative of you. Or, you know, make yourself at home. But I didn't want that one. And so I said to her, get in the kitchen. I wasn't really appreciating her. And... And she did. She got up and went in the kitchen. And then I went over to clamp the mess and there were all these puppies there. And then I saw, oh, you know, okay.

[89:58]

You know, you can be up there. Sometimes you realize right away, you had that option, I had the option, but when I saw her devotion to me, you know, and her obedience... She didn't smile at me when I said go in the kitchen. She went. When I saw that, I realized I didn't treat her as kindly as she treated me. She went away from our puppies. And I was trying to protect my pillow. So we can wake up to the ugliness of controlling and right away suddenly turn and say, okay, I'm so stupid. This is not what I want. I regret it. Please forgive me. Yeah, this is what I want, and I can change my mind.

[91:18]

And once they find that out, There will be some conversations. Once they find out that there can be conversations, then there'll be conversations, and that's going to be a lot of work. But I think it's really great to be willing to have all those conversations. Yeah. It's good if they know that they can talk with their parents. Again, you know this expression now. Use your words. You know, use words rather than screaming and hitting. Use your words. And then after you start using words, we can talk then. And it's not so much work for me if you just scream at me, but actually I'd like you to use words and make more work for me. And we're going to have these long conversations about what to do. It's going to be a lot of work. But it's really good work, these conversations. And then they can say, you know, I don't agree with you, Mommy.

[92:20]

You know the story about, again, my daughter was supposed, was going to, my wife asked me to help my daughter get off the pacifier because she was going to go to France and I was going to be with my daughter alone. She said, while I'm away, maybe you can get her off her pacifier. And I thought, did you hear that story? Yeah. And I thought. Okay. So when we got to Esalen Institute, where we were going to be staying, pretty much right away, I said, well, your mom suggested that this would be a good time to get off your pacifier. And she said, well, I don't want to get off it. It helps me go to sleep. And I thought, yeah, well, okay. I mean, you know, that's a conversation. And I could see it. Maybe, yeah.

[93:22]

And I thought, what do adults do to go to sleep? They're allowed to do all these amazing things. So, yeah, so I said, okay. And then things worked out that she accidentally bit through her pacifier. And she was devastated. And then she, and this is, as she would, This was at night, and she bit through it, and she was devastated, and she wanted me to get a new one. And I said, well, you know where we are, and the nearest store is really far away, and it's nighttime, and we can't really spend the whole night going to get the pacifier. But if you remind me tomorrow, I'll get it. And she didn't remind me, and I forgot, she forgot, and we came to the night again, and she said, And she realized she didn't have it and she wanted me to go and I said, remind me tomorrow I'll go. And then she forgot to remind me and I didn't go.

[94:26]

And then that night she didn't ask anymore. But I didn't control her out of that. And we had a conversation. And she evolved. And that was the end of the pacifier. But it, you know... It was not me controlling her. And it was me, and I didn't control her, but I also said, I just can't really bring myself to drive 50 miles in the night with you to get to pass fire. I said, you'll be asleep long before we get there. And she could accept that. So we worked that out together. And, yeah. And she's this great mom. She's such a great mom. She learned something from her parents. I mean, she's better than we are, but we're part of what made her, we helped her become a really great mom and a really great woman.

[95:36]

Yeah. It's wonderful. And you helped, too. Thank you. Even Grace helped a lot. Sometimes when I was at Tassajara, Grace and Fu were like her dads. And she needed more than just her mom, and she got it. So it worked out pretty well. One time when I was at Tassajara, Risa said, you know, I can't do this alone. She was like 14. It was like, it just was too much. So I was leaving the practice period, and I left the practice period. And the people at Tussara were really sad, but I think they understood that they would be okay, because they have the practice there. But my wife and daughter would not be okay if I didn't go. So they wouldn't be harmed, even though it's sad for me to leave, but it would be harmful if I didn't go back and assist them.

[96:45]

wife taking care of this 14-year-old. And she later said, you know, she later said, I was insane. And very powerful, insane person. So you need two adults. One's not enough. You need 10, 20. It's not fair to one-on-one. that this one writer made about what's happening with children in this generation is that, why don't they obey their parents? Like, I'll obey my parents. And I said, well, it's when it was liberation. Women don't obey their husbands. And the child sees that. So they say, well, you do what I'm talking about. You don't do what he's talking about. So they actually are experiencing that you have to negotiate with each other and have a conversation.

[97:49]

And rather than They don't see that big model. It's a really helpful thing. Yeah, and so we don't know what to say about these cultures which have, like somebody told me, you know, in the Tibetan monasteries, they seem like these little tulkus, they beat them, you know? And then they produce these wonderful tokus. But how does that work? Anyway, it doesn't seem to be... I wouldn't say it doesn't work. Everything works. But I think we're trying a different way. If I might say, I wrote an echo for the Martin Luther King birthday. I wrote it 10 or 15 years ago. And...

[98:50]

I was happy with it. And there was a line in there which said, in the realm of Dharma, it's a birthday, right? So in the realm of Dharma, there's no birthdays and death days. There's no birth and death. There's no coming or going. There's no black and white. I wrote that. And then for several years, people liked the echo. But then recently, someone said, I have a problem with that black and white thing. So we took it out. So sometimes what works in someone's situation doesn't work in another. And I think now it's time we're in the age of conversation. It's just like that's where it's at now. And maybe before making children, beating children and stuff like that, maybe there was something good about that. I don't know. But it seems like now what's appropriate is different. can't say from back then what it was like, but now... And it's also a thing, maybe not put down the previous generations without careful study, but just say, that doesn't apply now.

[100:03]

We're in a different historical venue, and now it's time to have conversations with the children. There was an article in the New Yorker about this... this school program, this school called the Success Program. And there's 46 success schools, I think, in the New York City area. And they're very successful schools, called success schools. And then it said, and the subtitle says, it's talking about how they control the class, you know? I said, well, I'm gonna read this, about controlling children. You know, they get really good test scores out of these kids. But there's also kind of an oppressive feeling there. And many Zen centers also, people visit various Zen centers and some of them seem oppressive.

[101:06]

And even this Zen center, sometimes people feel it's oppressive. But compared to some other Zen centers, It may seem not very oppressive. It's hard to compare, but I think, again, we're in the age of conversation. We have values, we have agendas, and then we have conversations about how to negotiate these forms and ceremonies. Yes. I sit with a Japanese priest who's in his 80s. He's kind of a mixed Zen group with Christians and different people coming in and out. And one of the things I noticed about him is what seems like he can nail what somebody needs versus gentleness versus don't do that.

[102:14]

You mean sometimes he's gentle and sometimes he says don't do it? Yes. And sometimes I've experienced his toughness and I haven't liked it and yet I could walk away later and say I needed that. So I really appreciate that document. I don't know. Thank you. And again you can say don't do that from a controlling mind or not. It can be just a gift. Just like, my gift to you is don't do that, or no. And you can do that from a disrespectful, controlling mind, or you can do it from a respectful letting go of trying to control the person and just giving them your, this is your most sincere gift that you feel you can give at the moment. And if they don't do what you say, You can tell by your response, maybe, that it was a gift, that you're happy to give it, and you're happy to see them not be oppressed or pushed around by your suggestion.

[103:32]

And I was talking to Linda about one of the priests I was working with many years ago. He was planning a trip, and I felt like it was really much better if he didn't take the trip for him that he would be much happier if he didn't take the trip even though it was a very nice trip because he would have negative consequences for his life here at Green Gulch if he went and he was quite upset with me for saying I don't really think it's good to go then later not too long later he said I decided not to go and I said I hope you didn't decide not to go because I disagreed with that I hope you saw that it was not best for you. And he did. And I had to look and see whether I was trying to control him. I don't think I was. But still, he got angry at me saying that to him. It seems like that idea of giving and receiving it as a gift is important.

[104:39]

Yeah. It's essential. It's the heart of Buddhism, giving and receiving. It's face-to-face transmission. Giving face and receiving face is the great way of Buddha. Giving your face where your words come from and your expressions come from and receiving the other person's face. And it's very hard to be here with this face and look at that face. Sometimes the face is so intense that we lose our footing in our stillness. And then we don't really have our faith anymore. So then we're not giving our faith. We're giving our distraction from our faith. It's very hard. But that's where it's at, is giving and receiving. Receiving, receiving, giving, receiving, giving. And like really remember stillness in that process. I'm quoting Dogen Zenji, right? The great way of the Buddha's

[105:42]

is nothing other than giving a face and receiving a face. Yes? Related to that, again, that was a big teaching of the mask, because my face is covered. Oh, that reminds me about I have a piece of calligraphy for you. Yes? But one of the things that I'm continually struck by, and you talked about face-to-face transmission, that keeps coming up for me is that realization It's that cool one of the true person coming out of the holes in your face. The fact that I have not and never can see my own face. And how powerful that is and the role that plays in the power of face-to-face transmission. Because the only way I will ever see or receive my own face is through that transmission from another face.

[106:45]

I can't. I can't get there myself. I've only seen reflections that are reversed along the wall and stuff. That's a hugely powerful part of this. Yep, it's a hugely powerful part of this, right. Yes. I would like to add something that Dr. Anne said and responded. So you said it depends whether somebody comes from not controlling, and then it is a gift. And I think what, I don't know, maybe you want to say that or not, but my feeling is that even if you don't come, let's assume as a teacher, you don't come from not controlling, that the other part still has the option to receive it as a gift. That's right. Maybe kids cannot, but I think adults, you know, it doesn't have to come from it.

[107:51]

Yeah. It seems sometimes not to be coming from it, and the other person has a chance to receive it anyway, and receive it the way they have a chance to receive it, not trying to control the reception. They have a chance to receive it, giving up controlling receiving. Like I could throw a ball to you with a controlling sense rather than a generous sense. Rather than giving you the ball, I'm trying to control the ball and control you. I'm trying to control you into catching the ball. Ready? I blinked a little bit there. Anyway, but I could be trying to control.

[108:51]

I don't think I was in that case. I was wishing you would catch it, but I didn't think I was going to control you or it. But I could have been trying to control it, and you could have received it. You could have caught it without you trying to control. I'm kind of saying the same thing you said. Even though I was trying to control when I threw it, you can receive it without trying to control the way you caught it. Is it starting to dawn? It's not my language, maybe others. I'm saying the same thing you said, that even if I was trying to control, you could receive it.

[109:55]

As a gift. As a gift. I'm saying the same thing. Even though I didn't really give it as a gift, I was trying to control, you could receive it as a gift. Because in truth, it was a gift. I was distracted. I didn't understand because I wasn't here. And actually, you might have received it as a gift, and I might have been upset about the way you received it, even though you received it the way I really aspired to send it. Yes. Yes. It's just a very difficult place, I think, to meet.

[110:57]

Yeah. Very difficult. Yeah. And so some of the great leaders of the last century, particularly, were people who were able to meet violence nonviolently. At least they learned how to do it. And they learned how to do it, I think, by meeting the violence violently and seeing that that didn't work many times, and then waking up to another way to receive it. But when you're slapped in the face, it's hard to remember stillness. Very hard. And not to mention not only slapped, but slapped violently. It's hard to remember stillness, yes. You could be remembering it, and then somebody slaps you, and you forget it. It's hard. So that's why they have these trainees, this martial arts school, is to teach people how to, when being attacked, to come back nonviolently.

[112:07]

Also, those great leaders you referred to, they recognized that there needed to be training. For people who were going to face that situation, they didn't just go into a cold. They offered training. Training, yeah. We need to train. We need to say, okay, everybody remember stillness now? Yes, okay, now we're going to come and slap you. Ready? No. Well, let me know when you're ready. Okay, now I'm ready. One, two, three. You didn't slap me. I know, I'm going to slap you now. I'm going to slap you when you're not ready. Are you ready for when you're not ready? Yep. And then you get to slap. How'd you do? I remember. I remember stillness. And I didn't, yeah. I'm happy I did. I don't hate you. Because we're doing training. Really, that's what we're doing all the time. We're training to understand that we're really helping each other.

[113:12]

But we have to train to understand that. And again, if you just suddenly somebody goes, you know, you can forget it. So we have to train. And then if we forget it, we say, I'm sorry, I forgot. I'm going to try again. But I agree totally, it is hard. And all many Zen stories about Zen teachers being attacked and not forgetting. And amazing people that they could go, welcome. But also these martial arts schools are people who learn to receive aggressive energy and not forget stillness. Any final comments that you'd like to make in this venue? Yes. If you, in one way or another, you answer, then I feel stupid that it keeps coming up.

[114:24]

It's the same one? It's a different, it's today's version of the same thing. I thought you had one for each year. No, same question. And I just keep having it. You say about that your job was to teach Frankie the Buddha what? That's your job. That's your job in your interactions. So that's why I'm here, because I value that so much. And then I think about leaving here. And then I think, OK, you can try to do that here. One could try to do that here. But I just go blank trying to think of how to live in the world, make things happen in the world, make good things happen in the world. And only by being the Buddha way up front. I can't, my mind can't imagine. I keep thinking there's other qualities we need.

[115:28]

And so... Like what? Yeah, so I'm here to say I don't think we are in control. No matter what we do, we influence the whole situation. But what I'm saying here right now, I'm not in control of what consequences it has. I'm not in control of whether it's helpful or not. I would like it to be. But I don't know. I don't want it to be like the same thing for everybody. I don't think that's appropriate. I would like to make a positive contribution to everybody with everything I do. But I'm not in control of what that is. I don't know what that would be.

[116:31]

I don't know how I could be helpful to everyone. I don't know. It's inconceivable, but I still want that. I wish to be a bodhisattva. but I don't really know what a bodhisattva is, and I still wish it. And so I don't think there is control, but if people needed it, we could try to magically create control. Also another very moving video is about, it's called Dharma Brothers. It's about teaching vipassana meditation in Alabama prisons. And most of the people in this retreat that they showed, most of them where they were subtitled, were murderers. And at the beginning, the guards talk about how difficult it is to control the inmates. So they're trying to control them. And they're probably going to continue to try.

[117:35]

And I'm not going to try to stop them from trying to control them. I'm not going to try to control them into stopping that. But these teachers came in, and they didn't try to control these people, but they trained them so that they knew what they were getting into. And then they just were with them. So I think it seems like they're coming in there and helping these people by not trying to control them, but being there with them. I think it helped them be in prison for the rest of their lives. to find some peace in prison. Most of these people are going to probably be there for the rest of their lives. And this practice is going to help them in prison be at peace and feel love for all beings in prison. And these teachers did not control them into benefit.

[118:38]

They gave them an opportunity to be still in prison and let all this stuff come up and be still with all this stuff and realize the benefit of being still with all the pain and suffering of our life. But it seems that the guards need to... You can say, well, they can offer this teaching because the guards are trying to control them. But would it be possible for the guards to do their job to guide, could they guide these inmates without trying to control them? Could they do that? And sometimes I watch the guard, they're called correctional officers. Sometimes it seems like the way they're talking is guiding, not controlling. Maybe for a moment they forget about trying to control and they talk to them like human beings.

[119:40]

like they were giving instructions about taking their stuff to the retreat. It didn't seem like they were really trying to control them. It's more like information. But they could have been trying to control, I don't know. They'd have to look inside. But a lot of them do think they're trying to control these people. But they also probably think that way about their spouses and their children, too, and their neighbors. So it's a pervasive thing. And the impulse to control basically doesn't come from Buddha. Buddha's not trying to control people. Buddha understands that she cannot control people. Control comes from fear. The attempt to control comes from fear and reinforces it and propagates it. And so people who are afraid feel like they need to control. And the guards certainly... reasonable, they'd be afraid of the inmates, and inmates also would like to control the guards, because they're afraid of the guards.

[120:45]

When we're afraid, we're very susceptible and at risk of trying to control, which reinforces the fear. Is that your annual question? Thank you. could do this here, but if you were living out there, would you be able to be as pure in your commitment to walk this path? Well, I can't even be pure here. I fail here with all these nice people. All these nice people come up to me and shock me and make me forget. Not make me forget, but when they shock me, which is good, thank you, then I might forget my job here.

[121:48]

Now, if people were more shocking, it would seem like maybe I would forget more. But no matter where I am, I'm going to occasionally or frequently forget what I believe in. Here, I forget. There, I forget. Over there, I forget. Over there, I forget. When I'm shocked. Surprised. However, in the context that I'm in, the surprise promotes the practice. And it shows me, oh, you're surprised? You just got distracted? You're sorry? This is part of the process. Now you're happy, right? OK. So go out there and welcome being surprised. Welcome being at risk of forgetting. It's the same here. And maybe more intense out there. I don't know.

[122:49]

In this prison example, they did make a nice kind of, these guys were doing meditation on a basketball court. They weren't actually in the cell block. They were in a basketball court that had curtains around it. So it wasn't like in the regular place where lots of noise and stuff. It was pretty quiet. So they can do this work. A niece? Wow. I'm very polite. I probably shouldn't say this, but there's a podcast. And the podcast series is more perfect. And there's a particular podcast called Interrupting Justice. In the Supreme Court of the United States of America, there are nine justices.

[123:57]

And the usual decorum of the Supreme Court is lawyers do not interrupt a justice. The justices are allowed to interrupt the lawyers. But the lawyers are not allowed to interrupt the justices. But they do anyway. And they interrupt the women three times as much as they interrupt the men. And somebody told me they got really angry when they heard that. And when the female justices start, They're very polite. But then after a while, they get to be more like the men. And they interrupt the most senior justice, female justice, Ruth Bader Ginzer.

[125:00]

They interrupt her, too. And somebody asked her, when do you think this is going to stop? And she said, when all nine people are women. And the justices, I don't know if they're not also allowed to interrupt each other, but they're not supposed to interrupt each other. But they do too. Anyway, yeah, I think this interrupting is something to watch out for. And being polite goes quite well with not interrupting. It's hard. It's hard to wait until they're done. Remedial practice.

[126:09]

Yeah, remedial practice. And you didn't interrupt me. You did not interrupt me. I was done. And I didn't interrupt you, did I? Not this time. Thank you very much. And again, congratulations to us. We're still standing. I mean, we're still sitting. Thank you. And I did this calligraphy of, this is Dogen's expression, Ru Jing's expression, for face-to-face transmission. This character is Menju. So this character means face, and this character means to give.

[127:13]

So it's face giving. You're giving your face, but that's short for giving the face and receiving the face. And Yuki saw this and she said, well, that character means mask. So this character also means mask. It's giving a face and receiving a face, and it's giving a mask and receiving a mask. And in the process of giving a mask and receiving a mask, we become unmasked. Our masks drop away. And we realize our original face. Anyway, I have these calligraphies, if you'd like one. You may have one up here someplace. Again, thank you very much.

[128:03]

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