You You In In introducing Buddhism or you know in bringing up Buddhist teachings in the world The Buddha Actually according to certain stories His first way of teaching didn't work very well

[01:09]

The first thing he taught was avatamsaka sutra according to some traditions And He noticed that most human beings on this planet didn't get it So he switched to the four noble truths And that seemed to work better Today At Tassajara it seems like it has been okay Not today so much, but earlier this practice period it seemed to be all right to talk about the four noble truths But that has not been my Sense of things prior to this it seemed like people wanted to hear about other things Or I wanted to talk about other things So now I've been presenting some material in the four noble truths and now I'm moving into

[02:15]

Looking at them from Looking Looking them in one sense more detail but also as we look at those details to look at how we regard those details and When I start talking about this I expected and I'm getting Some response The Four noble truths were not a big topic was not a popular topic to be taught in San Francisco in the 60s This is a courage he did not talk a lot about the four noble truths to all those hippies that came to study with Didn't talk about you know life-based suffering These People knew in one sense that it was not suffering because they had those drugs to help Anyway He didn't talk that much about four noble truth he talked about much neater things like

[03:20]

You know like by John twisting one boat's nose And he would laugh When he told the story and other things other very endearing and attractive ways of presenting Dharma He did my dear teacher I liked him a lot he was rather entertaining and in some ways easy to take One time in Tosahara Someone asked him Rosie. How come up in San Francisco your talks are so interesting, but down here we all go to sleep He Said at City Hall, I make him laugh down here. I tell you the way it is. So you all go to sleep He was so dear that instead of just you know resisting and arguing with him Which wouldn't be fair since he didn't speak English very well. We just go to sleep with every saying he wouldn't like

[04:21]

You know halfway through the sentence we could drop off if you mention anything that would threaten our reality Occasionally don't broach the topic, but then everyone is going to sleep so we don't know how long he went on Edward Kanza said One time when he came to visit Zen Center, he said, you know these Japanese people that are teaching you Buddhism You know, they're not showing you the magic And His theory was the reason why they didn't show the magic was because MacArthur prohibited it the MacArthur thing That was really nice what Americans were nice to the Japanese after they you know Bomb dropped those bombs from then on for quite a while. We were really nice to them But we did sort of tell him, you know, put away your magic You know about that They were kind of like, you know told the religious people to cool it a little bit no more kind of like, you know

[05:24]

Ceremonies for the prospering of the nation So when they came to America Edward Kanza's theory is that the Japanese kind of thought we better not show the Americans in magic because they'll freak or they'll think you know Whatever. Anyway, they they downplayed the magical side and this is what you actually gradually did ceremony He said I'm gonna do this ceremony. You don't have to do these ceremonies. I Like to do them. You can come if you want and you don't have to do them But still did quite a few ceremonies even with us But in some ways what some traditions have when they've come some Buddhist traditions when they come to America what they decided to do was Not have any ceremonies because a lot of people who come here are coming there what he called their refugees from ceremony camps Right, they're coming from They're coming from What he called iconoclastic traditions or they're coming from Catholicism Or they're coming from and so they don't like ceremonies or they're coming from Protestantism where there's not so much ceremonies But there they have this like, you know, hell and damnation thing, you know, right and wrong

[06:27]

So don't talk about right and wrong. So don't say the four noble truths. Don't teach her about that right and wrong stuff Don't have ceremonies and also They don't like this rebirth thing or they do like it so much that that's all they'll talk about You know if you bring up rebirth and start talking about it, you cannot stop the conversation You can get one group of people that fighting against it But really they don't want to talk about anything else but and the other people who think it's really interesting so I think they found It's be careful of the ceremonies. Be careful of talking in terms of right and wrong. Be careful of talking When I all that stuff rebirth And partly I think the main problem of rebirth is they get distracted from the practice when you start talking about it they'll just you know, yappity [...] get hotheads and So they just don't play that stuff and it was that was something it did also they downplayed Nothing hippies did not want to hear about they downplayed Precepts downplayed morality. There was not much discussion of morality

[07:29]

They came, you know, they came into the Zen dorms as a gray She said he you know, he shocked him by saying please wash your feet and your hands That was like about as far as you could go He didn't tell him to stop taking drugs When we started Tassajara, we kind of like said, you know cool the drugs Cool the alcohol took a long time to say no really no drugs. No alcohol Took a long time to get to say that So In some ways if you want to make Buddhism more attractive at least for the people who are here last few decades No ceremonies. No rebirth. Also, no perfection. Don't talk about perfection because a lot of people are also refugees from perfectionism They're trying to get away from religions which stimulate their perfection thing So don't bring that up because that's you know, that's gonna really get him riled up

[08:32]

If Buddha's not like perfect right Buddha's just like, you know, totally cool and neat and friendly and compassionate that's that's okay But perfect Not that No, right and wrong. No, right. Don't get into that No good and evil say that I brought the word evil. I started doing that a few years ago Oh, geez, don't use that word. You can't use that word Even morale the word morality sin you can't use the word sin even good is dangerous because it's other words are over there No rules. We're no rules. No rules This don't mention those words and Things are going more smoothly a Lot of times sometimes when I read Zen Zen text or something a Buddhist text and I'm reading some beautiful thing on beautiful and I want to share with people and I hit this thing And part of the reason why I don't want to tell them that because It's because this is so beautiful. So sometimes I actually quote things and I take out the parts

[09:39]

You Know I take a lot. I do because I want to say this beautiful thing, you know And if I say this line people will go into this thing and they'll forget about everything that was said before and they'll just be focusing on that and Or they might even say that what was said before since it's connected to what was said there is wrong. Look not wrong Evil not evil What fascist that's okay Chauvinist sexist racist That's okay prejudiced Bigoted those words are okay. You see today Not evil Don't say you don't say that Matter of fact as soon as you get the word evil, you don't react by saying that's evil You say bigoted or whatever So I don't I stop I don't I stop at that point and skip over it or just stop and just tell the beautiful part Which is encouraging and so on so forth. I do that. I've done that Probably do it again

[10:41]

But it's nice and actually not to stop and to tell the whole story and not pull the things out Maybe warn you that something's coming So what I what I feel like I should what I should do now What I should do and what I want to do is not so much give you more material on this stuff yet But really talk about how are you going to study? If you can get a feeling for this Even if you isn't that you'll study the way I tell you to but at least you hear about the range of approaches to Dharma if you can Have different the ranges of approaches to the four noble truths Then you can study them as many books about them and they're not that complicated actually you can study them anyway And you can see which approach are you taking which way are you taking these things? Indow perhaps more in a more common version of the book of the Bodhisattva precepts Than the one we do the tenth grade precept the tenth major precept is no wrong views

[11:51]

But the way we say it is no disparaging of the triple treasure Basically What wrong views means is Wrong views about Buddha Dharma and Sangha. That's what it's actually wrong views about not just like wrong political views as well But anyway, it's wrong views about Buddha Dharma song Here's some wrong views about Buddha Dharma and Sangha one wrong view wrong view is Dharma practice doesn't work. That's a wrong view Buddha's not really all that swell Sangha is not necessary Also Buddha is like now we're not perfect. But Buddha is like, you know, whatever I say Buddha is rather than being something like totally, you know infinitely Inconceivably wonderful. It's also you can box it Morality is not morality is is just a matter of What it called this is a modern thing morality is a matter of human convention. It's not the structure of the universe

[12:58]

That's a wrong view Right view is morality is not is some, you know, it's partly human convention But the reason why humans come up with these conventions have something to do with the structure of the universe we're tuning in something big-scale here and Even though different communities have different Moralities they're all trying to tune in Hey If it's a religious morality, they're trying to turn to this big-scale morality the big-scale structure of the way things actually are Morality in other words to line up our behavior with the way things actually are that's right view and to say that that is is is there is a way things are and We would like to line up with it and also that the way things are is that it's a happy life when you're lined up With the way things actually are and that's morality and maybe the moral disciplines and moral

[14:04]

Instructions that have come from the ancestors have something to do with the way things actually are and therefore Has something to do with aligning our life with the way things actually are and that therefore has something to do with being happy Big-time universal unlimited happy because you're plugging into the Total cosmic way things are so you got everything working for you and you're working for everything That's I would say that's right view. You only live once That's wrong view Human beings cannot achieve perfection. That's similar to you know, some human beings can't actually be Buddha's selfish animals can't be selfish selfless and So on these are wrong views What do you mean by wrong? So

[15:08]

In the short term it may not be necessary to Discriminate between true and false With regard to the way things actually are you may be able to put that aside for a while for various reasons you might Want to but eventually it's necessary to make this discrimination But There are it's dip it's a difficult situation to do so and I would say that in making discriminations about the way things actually are It's very important to be Gentle And careful about it because as I mentioned you can hurt beings in the process and Part of what's proposed in Buddhism that the structure of the universe is a structure Which has something to do with living beings? Being kind to other living beings that that's that's actually more in line with the way things are

[16:12]

Than The selfish way Self living beings. However can be selfish and cruel to each other. We know that But we can even be rough and cruel about the way we apply kindness and the policies of kindness If that were in fact the true way we can be cruel about the way it's applied for example Would to be cruel to those who don't seem to be Manifesting kindness I think we live in it. We live in a we live in perhaps Northern California is perhaps the most tolerant in a way the most tolerant part of the United States San Francisco is perhaps the most top there is perhaps the most San Francisco is perhaps the most tolerant city in the country perhaps But

[17:17]

And this is tape so so I want to say again that these different approaches to truth that I'm been bringing up to you I'm not I'm I would suggest that we we may it may it may be the case that we need all three And I particularly like the third one myself the one of and I want to say a little bit more about that third one Is that Once you agree once you have a language a symbolic language that you use with a certain group of people The the intimacy of that agreement manifests interdependence And So the In a sense it offers the opportunity for everything and I'm benefiting independence, right? But it's a kind of like a it's a like a game in some way There's a game to manifest interdependence, but a part of the game is a manifesting interdependence is that it kind of empties the game

[18:20]

And it makes that the rules of the game start to start to become not you know, not substantial realities But something that's created that's a good that I've created so that we can do this thing together and create this kind of event together But then again if we if we lose the substance of the of the game It can turn into and sound like and be misconstrued as Everything's equally true Isn't One empty thing as true as another empty thing Can seem like that, but actually you can have an empty truth and empty falsehood, too Anyway, I I think maybe I'm I'm ready to go back to This kind of problem that parent raised now that introduction Do I can you want to raise this kind of this difficulty try to describe the difficulty that you that you feel

[19:28]

This morning Just now it seems to be the problem for me is not so much sharing a symbolic But I still make Difference between language and these or ideas expressed You make a distinguish between what and what It's not the same I can use the same symbolic language I think to express very contradictory kinds of values and ideas within the same community, for example Imaginary or the idea of Yes Yeah What's the problem

[20:38]

For example, how can I align myself with I'm sorry, I have to use an example Like when I practiced in Europe, in the sangha I practiced based on Deshinaru One could say brought Soto Zen to Europe, so a very important figure Deshinaru Roshi wrote a book on precepts, which is as far as I know one of the only available books in Gelbian So this book is particularly important To use the language of precepts But to me, for example, it expresses Very dangerous very Rough So I have problems to align myself with Sangha Well, it sounds to me like you're saying that since this person wrote this book

[21:52]

That you're supposed to align with it You thought you're supposed to align with it But you found things in it that you thought were wrong, so you have hesitancy to align with it Is that what you're saying? Yeah, but that's a very neutral way of saying it That's a what? Very neutral way of saying it Because it's not just books It's not just a person Let's say the founder of this practice in Europe There were so many people Oh, I see, okay, so expand it and say It's not just a book, it's a whole group of people Who have a certain understanding of Buddhist precepts Which you don't agree with So you hesitate to align yourself with that whole group, that whole movement Is that right? And in addition, I just made it It's a painful thing, but I made this statement There's something deeply wrong in that It's not just that I stay away from it I say there's something wrong Well, you say that there's something wrong and you stay away from it

[22:57]

And even when you're away from it, you still say something You think there's something wrong with it Like right here and now in the safety of this room Because we agree with you Okay, see, I feel like I understand what you said there But it's a little bit mixed up from what I was talking about What I was talking about is Well, actually, that group of people Maybe they have a, what do you call it Maybe within their system They have an agreement about what those precepts mean But do they think that their agreement is just because of their agreement Or do they think their agreement is also an agreement on the way things actually are That I don't know So then they're not talking about what I was just talking about What I was talking about is that you have a discussion You approach these truths as something which we will discuss

[24:04]

And we will have an understanding of them And in a certain group, we will have a certain understanding But that's only true by the rules of our group Okay, it will not be true outside the group Now you, okay, let's stop there And that means that there's a coherence of our understanding of the precepts Within that discussion group And we do not, because we know that the coherence is That the way we see this is that it's just coherent We understand that the rules by which we establish reality of this Is just by these rules And that aside from that context, it doesn't have reality And if you go against our rules of discourse That would be the problem But this truth which we arrive at by these rules of discourse Will not apply to other universes of discourse We don't think that if we have this view If we think it applies to other groups Then we say this is the way things are Rather than this is the way things are in this discussion group

[25:04]

I think, just let me say more, okay All right, you see the difference? I'm talking about that now, okay That the kind of The coherence Language game kind of approach to truth That we don't have an external Outside objective universal truth That we're proposing or checking with This does not just correspond to anything Other than corresponding to our rules Now if we have that And we say that that applies somewhere else We're just being, you know, inconsistent And irrational Now if we say we set this truth up And it's not a truth which just depends on What we agree upon And it isn't just the rules by which we establish truth That make it so And it actually applies to other situations Then you're in the first case And that's the case I thought would bother you And that's the case that you're using You're coming from that position And applying to that group

[26:10]

You feel like you have a sense You have a sense of what is right And what you have a sense of right about Is not just what's right of Tassajara But you even would apply it to what's right For the European groups Which were founded by Dashimaro It's not like, well they had this little group So they can do their thing over there And they can say what they want about morality No, you feel that you're concerned with a morality A precept which universally applies And it's close to their group too And you would apply it also to Christian groups maybe So you're exemplifying in your view Of their understanding of the precepts You're exemplifying what I would say Is the view of Right and wrong Where he means that it's really right And really wrong Not just practically right Or practically wrong Because you might even be able to see That there might be some practical value for them That maybe they're happy with that to some extent Maybe it works for them But for you it doesn't work

[27:12]

Because you can maybe see what that could do To other people who are outside the group So you feel, from what I understand you're saying You feel that what they're doing is wrong And that means you have a sense of a right And a wrong That apply beyond Some little situation And this I would say is I propose to you is The predominant way That people feel About right and wrong Is the way he's exemplifying This is a normal human thing And that normal human thing Gets applied then to The way things are in normal human situations Like your paycheck Like your house Like your body Your understanding of what's right and wrong About that stuff Gets then applied to what you think about Like liberation, universal salvation The way things really are The way things always have been, the way things always will be You apply that same kind of thing We human beings apply the same kind of thing to that Mostly But I'm proposing there's two other ways

[28:15]

Of looking at it That I think are helpful to notice And they're partly helpful to notice Because people are using them And that the way Buddhism is being transmitted And studied in the West Is to a considerable extent These second two ways Even though as human beings This other way, which is not working Too well to present Buddhism In this basically human way The basic human way of presenting Buddhism Is not working so well But these other two ways are easier for people to take Because they're more popular There's less pain in them There's less dissonance There's less There's less exclusiveness There's more inclusiveness They're more tolerant So in the Bay Area particularly Is a place where there's tremendous Buddhist practice At the same time such tolerance That this human element Is being Suppressed The human element

[29:15]

Is in a kind of state Of suppression and denial And that's a problem of Buddhist practice In the place in America where it's most practiced Except it's not such a problem Among The ethnic groups The ethnic Buddhist groups In the Bay Area They're not so sophisticated They're foreigners They're coming from Vietnam, Cambodia Laos, Thailand They're coming from an environment That's not so sophisticated in terms Of American society And liberal values And what's going on in the Bay Area So in those temples They probably say These four noble truths are true And if you disagree with them You're wrong Of course it's hard to talk to these people Because they don't speak English very well So they won't bother you much But see that's the key thing I think I'm trying to point here Is that there is a kind of dishonesty Or unconsciousness About the way we're studying Buddhism In the place we're most studying Buddhism And it pervades the rest of the country

[30:17]

And pervades Europe too And I'm trying to bring that up And have you say Okay, I am not going to get into this Right and wrong thing about Buddhism But know that you're not doing that And also then tell me Is there any area of your life where you do And then tell me that you don't do that in any area of your life And then see if you can like Hold your finger up straight when you say that Because as I say What bothers me to some extent Is that people, you know Waltz through the Heart Sutra They waltz through this as a Buddhist teaching They waltz through that as a Buddhist teaching Because they don't take them as real Or wrong I mean if you think like Berend feels pretty strongly about the way these people Understand the precepts in that group in Europe He feels strongly about it, right Pretty strongly, he not only stays away but he keeps talking About it It's a strong feeling He doesn't just say Well, you know, blah blah blah He actually feels strongly about it

[31:17]

This is a normal human thing to feel When you see something you think is wrong You usually feel kind of strongly about it That's normal Okay, but we're supposed to be tolerant Of these other Buddhist groups And also tolerant of the Christian groups And also tolerant of the Jewish groups And also tolerant of the Islam groups We're supposed to be tolerant There's a Bay Area, right, tolerance But So we should be religiously tolerant too So we are, right And we're also tolerant of people who have other Sexual orientations from ourselves Tolerant of other races We're supposed to be tolerant, right What about But there's certain places where you don't have to be tolerant Like we don't have to be tolerant Of intolerance in the Bay Area Whereas other parts of the country You have to be tolerant of intolerance You have to be Well, if you try not doing it You get shot, like that The Bay Area You can be tolerant of intolerance and you won't get shot right away Because most people Are intolerant of intolerance in the Bay Area

[32:22]

And they're tolerant of tolerance They're tolerant, that's the thing What about this intolerance Where is the intolerance, where is the sectarianism Where is it It's buried But Barrett is not, he's coming out of the closet He's telling us he is sectarian He's opposed to that He's opposed to that European sect He thinks they're wrong He feels strongly This is normal, human being, this is an honest person When he tells us that Right, this is normal It bothers me that people People are, you know In the Bay Area, that they're intolerant of tolerance They're intolerant of intolerance And they're basically, I think tolerance is good But the intolerance Of the intolerance Well, wait a second, how can you draw a line there So it bothers me when people are Tolerant about Buddhism But intolerant about other things So they read the Lotus Sutra and all this fantastic weird stuff's happening You know, arhats are getting trashed

[33:23]

And stuff like that But when they hit certain things which relate to their The place where they Do not say, well You know, there's no right and wrong here They hit a place where they think, this is wrong Then suddenly they come alive, you know Then there's energy in the room Then they go, change the sutra How come he didn't say that for the I mean, this is just normal chauvinist talk here How come he didn't get upset about this revolutionary World-shaking stuff before The reason why is because they didn't Take it as true or false They just let it go by They moved into the, they were applying Their tolerant thing to that They're not being very human, in other words Being quite sophisticated You see Yeah I appreciate the thrust of what you're saying But I also want to suggest that There are other reasons for doing that Doing what? For not applying Absolutistic Value judgments To Material that we

[34:25]

Encounter in our Dharma studies Which is We may not, in the beginning of our studies Understand it very well We may not, for example, we may read Something that is really revolutionary That really does completely Turn around Has the power The power to completely turn around Our understanding of the world And everything we think And we may not Know what it is when we first encounter it We might need to Encounter it several times and develop A context for it before we appreciate The meaning of it, and then we might say This is stupid Or we might say, oh my god I have to change the way I think You know, now I have to I have to take this on So partly we may just have a problem knowing what to take on At the beginning But, yes, I wouldn't have brought up These other two ways of looking at truth If I didn't think they had some value They do have a value, that's why That's one of the main reasons why they are being used They are, in effect, being used now

[35:27]

Three ways One is that when a truth is being proposed Or an understanding is being proposed And it is actually true Now in this case we have four truths being proposed He's coming out of the closet right away and saying These are truths He's not saying, like I said, he's not saying He didn't say These are four statements, four ideas Four possibilities For blah blah blah He said they're four truths Now, even though he said it's four truths Still, what does he mean by truth? Does he mean, what do you call it? That these are three truth statements? Or are these three truth claims? Four truth claims Four truth assertions Is he asserting that it's a truth In the sense that this is actually the way Things actually are And not just in India But all over the sentient world It isn't like the borders of The chakra clan And suddenly it changes when you move into that clan He's saying this is true He said all, the Buddha's vision has to do with all

[36:28]

Has to do with all living beings That's the thing about Buddha's vision So that's the first way Second way is If you take these four truths If you look at things this way It will make your life better And your whole family life will be better And they'll like you better You'll like them better Your neighbors, you'll get along better with your neighbors It's basically going to be better crops Better weather Nicer landscapes Less war, more love, more happiness Basically a better life And also, this is in the context of Not only will this life be better But future lives will be better too But also this future lives thing That's not really the way things are That will even make you have a nicer life If you think it's going to go beyond this life Not only is it going to make this life good But it's going to make infinite future lives good too This kind of approach But it's a practical way of thinking That's the way to take these statements The other way is Which is not impractical necessarily

[37:30]

Or denies the other thing But just that by By What we call or what we think is true Is something we set up socially We make a social reality together We construct it together Because we live together Because we're humans, because we're animals Of this type And what is true there Is what goes with the established system And it's true within the system But not true outside the system And these are communal and authoritative They're authoritative rules Of discourse Within a particular community About attitude and action Discourse, attitude and action Well, it's truth by convention But conventional truth Is the first kind What would be fixed? The last category? No That's what I'm saying Like right now we have A rather

[38:31]

Flexible understanding of the koans In America At least in our koan study group But there are koan systems In Japan And within that system they have rules And within that system there's a definite truth And some people in those truths And some people in those systems Of understanding the koan They have rules in those koan systems About how you check to see Whether the person understands according to those rules And there is supposedly a kind of enlightenment That can come out of that situation But in that situation some of the people in that system Think that that understanding applies To other communities of discourse So their understanding of the koan Is not just their understanding of the koan But would apply throughout The sentient world In other words what the mu koan means Is true for the whole Sentient world Not just for One monastery And in Soto Zen Part of transmission actually And in Rinzai Zen too Soto Zen more so though is

[39:33]

Particular lineages of teachers' understandings of koans Most of what Dogen teaches In Shobo Genzo Is his understanding of koans However he has many disciples And each lineage of his disciples Is a different lineage of Dogen's understanding of the koans The Rinzai system Has a more It's a bigger system which applies to more monasteries So they have more agreement within monasteries As to the criterion For communal discourse, authoritative communal discourse And again Within some of those systems Some of those Zen teachers and some of those Zen students Feel that their understanding of the koan applies to Soto Zen too That we should have If we don't have the same understanding of mu that they do We're wrong and they're right And I would say That that's a normal human way to be But Modern day sophisticated philosophers Like Wittgenstein and so on They would understand They would propose that almost all human discourse Is really in this little box here But even though that may be the case Still within that box Human beings arise who have strong

[40:34]

Feelings of right and wrong Without thinking of it the way he tells us We're surrounded In other words Wittgenstein's saying Whatever you come up with As right and wrong Is just because of being born in a certain Language Universe of discourse And the way we can check whether you're right or wrong Will be by checking with that universal Discourse language system Alright However the person Doesn't feel that way necessarily If you step back and look at your truth statements Things you think are really true from that perspective You will soften and become more tolerant Which is good It's good to be more tolerant That perspective is helpful We should have that perspective Especially living in the Bay Area Because we would have wars with the other Buddhists If we don't have that perspective It's a way to lighten up and empty The fact that you actually feel that this is right Does that take away from the truth value? No There are three truth values

[41:36]

There are three different types How can you take away from the feeling that it's right If you step back and see there's Consensus that creates it that's conventional How can you take away from the sense that it's right And how can you still attribute truth to it? The way you do it The way it's done is by love Love is what does it Look at the Buddha He had a very clear message of what he thought was true A couple of times his disciples argue with him Like that story I told you about Sati Where Sati says He took the Buddha's teaching Of rebirth literally And because he took it literally He then misunderstood the Buddha's Literal teaching The Buddha literally taught the teachings about the five skandhas And literally taught The teachings about rebirth So this guy took the teachings about rebirth literally And then compared them to the Buddha's teaching about The five skandhas And he didn't hear what the Buddha was saying about five skandhas Because his interpretation of what rebirth meant Meant that he blocked The Buddha's message about the five skandhas So he said that the consciousness skandha Can exist by itself And even the Buddha saying no I did not say that

[42:37]

Who said that? I never said that The guy would not back down Now in this case the Buddha even called the guy Some kind of like Different translations but stupid, a fool The Buddha talked like that to this guy Not very often did he talk like this To people Was the Buddha being dogmatic? In that case Was he still being compassionate and kind and skillful? But he got pretty tough on that thing He didn't like, he didn't string him up But he felt pretty bad The guy was kind of like sitting with his head in his hands He was kind of down afterwards By getting scolded by the Buddha Now did the Buddha keep in mind The practical and the contextual Thing while he was talking to him? I don't know, maybe he slipped there a little bit And got a little self-righteous, I don't know But in fact In fact We live in a world Where It's questionable what is skillful Because if you propose something What I think is

[43:38]

Is my thing is that I think that you do Have a conviction Every moment of your life you carry a conviction You have been convinced of something as real You do think Certain things are real and unreal You do think certain things are true, you do Moment by moment, I think you do You may not wish to bring it out because if you bring it out You know you'll get in trouble So you keep it back But when it starts to come out And you see it, then I would say That flexibility and softness is good That tolerance is good When you have like A crystal ball in your hand Then being gentle and careful About it is good It doesn't, you know If you've got a crystal ball in your hand You don't have to like, you know You don't have to like worry too much About being too flexible You can worry a little bit about being too flexible Because you'll drop it if you're too flexible But basically you have a feeling this is a precious thing I want to take care of it That's enough You've been convinced This is important, this is a precious Dharma

[44:40]

This is really helpful To all beings Isn't that enough? I think so But the funny thing is Is that when you're not sure Is when you hold it too tightly And don't allow any tolerance If you're sure Then people come up to you and say Do you think the reason that Dharma is so great is because it's kind of like Just basically makes your life work better Could that be the reason why you think it's true? You might say Well actually That's true, it does make my life I am happy with this Dharma This Dharma does make my life happy And my kids do think I'm a better father That's also true Now would you hold this truth if temporarily at least Your kids thought you were a bad father Well I think I still hold it But I would wonder Because of the practical side of it But you wouldn't necessarily drop it yet And then what about Somebody comes up to you and says The reason why you come to think this is so valuable Is because of the social world you live in And the kind of feedback you get

[45:42]

On holding this truth Everybody sort of praised you for holding this truth And they said it's really good that you're holding this truth And we really like you taking care of that That's true isn't it But you still might not drop it You still might not weaken it You still might have You still might say If people said to you You still might say Just say the truth Up to a certain point Now if your life was in danger you might say Well maybe I should say Ok I give up because then maybe the next week They'll change their mind and you can come out of the closet again You might make that deal But you still even when you go in the closet And start hiding it you still might actually Clearly remember that that is your conviction And you didn't change your mind Now if they do what they call an inquisition on you And what they call reprogramming Then you figure out am I actually going to let them reprogram me Or will I just say what they want to hear Or what you know Are you following this You can have a conviction

[46:44]

Very clearly and present it in a soft Unselfrighteous way It is possible And I think the Buddha And a lot of Zen teachers a lot of other teachers Have presented something that they're perfectly clear about They have deep conviction about But they aren't self-righteous about I think that's more of a happy world I think it's more sophisticated I think it's a bigger understanding I think it shows more confidence in what you think is right Which of the three understandings would you say that is Which is which What I just said The fact My opinion that that is actually The best way What I think is the best way Is to admit that you're a human being And that you have convictions To admit that Or at least If you can't admit it because you don't even know what they are To bring them out and see them And clarify what you think is most important In other words clarify your faith About what life's about You've got it already

[47:44]

And then be unselfrighteous about that That's my view Of not only That's my view of the best way to live That's my view Now I also then am practical about that Like I won't talk this way to certain groups of people I'll talk about something else maybe That they're more interested in But with you I'm talking about this And it seems to be working alright It seems to be practical And I'm even telling you that the whole context Of this discussion also makes it all Even more sophisticated and even more interrelated And also the interrelationship of it however Starts to make it more relative So if I switch over to the third camp Then everything becomes Moves towards being relative In other words everything All truths are relative Well I don't feel that way We don't feel that way And I'm saying that the Buddha Is not so much And even bring the practical thing around

[48:49]

To the Buddha is that the Buddha presented Truths which will set people free Of the world of duality Of true and false So then you can say he presented a truth Which he said Is not Which is a definitive Really how it is truth To set you free of the world where there's really how it is And really how it isn't So you can say his presentation of taking things as actually true The way they really are Is actually practical You see Do you understand? The Dharma is just skill and means In order to release people from the world Of where there's true as opposed to false But if you say it's relative Then they stay in the world Which is Not relative We're trapped in a non-relative world Animals do not live in a relative world That's not the way They feel about it We sophisticated people can say yes you do But they don't feel that way They're trapped in a world that's not relative Where this is good

[49:49]

And it's not relative to that This is good and it's not That bad thing That's where we live, that's where we're trapped That's our animal penance In order to be free of that We use the material of that world of dualism To set us free So we can't skip over the fact that we think In terms of good and bad However, I think it helps To study that world To have these other two views And also helps because we live in a world Where if we're going to talk to anybody else about this We have to deal with the fact that other people Are dealing with these truths In different ways, so we have to understand That they're coming at it in a different way Otherwise we're going to just be at odds And we're going to get distracted from our own study And what also we'll do Is we will Go into denial About what's happening Because of social pressures And if we realize the social pressures We can say, oh, they're pressuring me into sort of like giving up What I think is true Okay, fine, I understand that You don't have to once you realize What they're doing, what's happening

[50:49]

And I say Once again, I say You don't have to give up what's true But what I'm saying to you Is you won't You'll just go down And you'll become unconscious of it The only way to change what you think is true Is by getting what you think is true out there And admitting exactly how you think it's true and studying it Then you change it Not by switching into something else necessarily But by understanding what it really is And becoming free of it But you can also just change it, too If you get new information And it seems like, you know Alright So, do you still want You can raise your hand one time Yeah, basically What I was thinking Is similar to what you said I was thinking How assertions of truth involve Our mental actions And they generate karma And karma produces some sorrow So any kind of assertion Or denial is Pertaining to some thought

[51:52]

And these methods of studying Are fake Yeah, and Buddha Buddha used the stuff that we play with To set us free from Not free from our play But free from our enslavement And all the terrible reactions we have to being enslaved But we live in a world Where a lot of us Are not aware of the fact That we actually do have these That we actually do make discrimination Between right and wrong In a hard way In a tough, strict way we do And like I say There's certain rounds where we can get by with it Like in the Bay Area you can be pretty heavy About being down on intolerance You can say intolerance is bad In certain areas of San Francisco And nobody will give you any trouble But the thing is can you keep track Of what you really feel under social pressure And the answer is a lot of people can't And that's

[52:53]

What in some sense The Wittgenstein's people are saying Is that all of us have been Greatly Molded Or Down, beaten down By social situations So that we don't actually think of reality Aside from our social conditioning And to check And the main way we check To see whether something is true or not Is by asking other people From the time we were little kids Is this right mommy? Is this wrong mommy? Is this right daddy? Is this wrong daddy? And then we even try to like do what they say is wrong Just to make sure that they really mean it And we push them real hard To make sure that you know This isn't just a relative practical statement They'll actually like Take action to stop me And it's not so much that you want to do it even Sometimes but just you want to find out What do they mean by don't? What do they mean by no? What do they mean by not? What do they mean by bad?

[53:54]

If it's just practical you know Then you should be able to push it It wouldn't be practical then for them to Put too much energy into stopping you It would be impractical If it's just a practical thing Or if it's just a discourse thing Why would they be so upset about it? And so on and some things are like that And sometimes in the Abhidharmakosha You know Vasubandhu is arguing with somebody Some theoretical Sarvastivad And Sarvastivad is saying this dharma is real And he keeps pushing on and pushing on And finally they say well Actually it's not real We just needed to have it be real For our whole system to work So actually it was just practical And that's called Prajnapati Which is called, which Edward Kahneman Translates as fruitful fiction Provisional, it's provisional You put out these provisional things Because you got this system right So you put out these provisional things To hold the system together And if you push on any one of them They don't hold up But you don't say right away This is not really true And this is not really true And this is not really true

[54:58]

And this is not really true So let's use these to talk about what's happening You don't do that Because people won't use them Does anybody have their hands here? Yeah I feel that I feel kind of a social pressure To not have any beliefs Just thinking about Talking with my sister on the phone I was very reluctant to say What we were actually studying here Or what I was actually learning So it was a very uncomfortable conversation Yeah it's going great But I wouldn't say anything about it There you go And the sense that it's very dangerous To have beliefs About life Well even not even having a belief Just even telling somebody about Studying rebirth and karma Or noble truths Yeah Even the word noble Watch out for that By the way It's become That's the standard term That's the standard translation But you know another word for that arya

[55:59]

Would be sacred or holy But also we have a problem with holy Sacred is now popular Sacred doesn't have so much to do with the church Holy has to do with the pope and stuff So maybe sacred truths But anyway But the first one This thing about you know Suffering Not just suffering in the monastery But at her house too Yeah So you don't want to bring that up You don't even bring it up Not to mention to say that you think it's true Even the topic Because if you bring it up If you're studying it There must maybe There's some implication If we're studying this That we must think is it worth studying So why would anybody spend 3 months Studying suffering It's sick right Especially if you would like believe that So you don't want to talk to your sister about that When people go home You know to visit their parents I say don't talk about Buddhism Because if you do Either you rile them up And that's not so bad But they may suppress you

[57:02]

Ok I didn't really mean that Ok ok They make you recant Or you may just get in a big fight And they say see Buddhism is bad But the fight was about They try to make you give up Buddhism Or give up your understanding So I just say don't talk about it Just like wash the dishes Clear the table after meals Take your mother shopping You know be nice basically They can understand that And that's Buddhism Really helping with the dishes That is Buddhism It's all there Right But you shouldn't say that's really so Then you get in trouble again So don't say anything I would generally say Can I take you shopping Or you know Give them a compliment If you can't If you can't stop them Generally you can say Refer them to your teacher

[58:03]

Or say you know it's something you have to do yourself You really can't understand With this thing unless you meditate So it's ok get them to go sit down You know sit in a chair Or sit out on the porch Looking at the backyard Just have them sit there And they say how long did I sit there You just sit there And come and check on them every few hours How is it going Is something happening And they say yes something is happening here Blah blah blah That's good pretty soon you're going to understand Just keep doing that If they'll do that and then say You know I think actually it's time for you to go tell Sara come on And have them sit here for a while And then they can talk to you Don't talk to them I would say Get them to practice Because aside from practice Outside of practice is see you're practicing So I can talk to you about this stuff And you've got to practice to help you digest it But just to go talk to people like this without I don't do this to people that I'm practicing Generally You want to get them to start working with themselves

[59:09]

Before Because see what I'm talking about here Basically is you Bringing your thing out here That you have some feeling about these four noble truths You do think they're true Or false You do think it's true That the whole problem of your life And the whole world Is your attachment to yourself Or you don't think that Which is it And we have trouble looking at that Because if we saw that it was true That it was really true That would revolutionize our whole life We would flip over to the fourth truth And start practicing Very intensely If we were convinced That the first truth was really true That's why I'd like you to see Do you think it's true And if you think it's false Well then say so Come out and say you know I actually don't believe it Well then we can talk about it We can struggle You know we can have These struggle sessions right No that's not

[60:12]

That's the usual situation Already that people don't know But people do not Tolerate that For very long You only tolerate it When you're comfortable But as soon as I start reaching in your pockets And pulling your such and such out You suddenly start to know You get uncomfortable And when you're uncomfortable You don't sort of like I don't think people I don't think that's human To like not know what's right and wrong But you have to say To have an opinion about something I don't know that Whether something is right or wrong In every case Well I don't really know I'm not sure what I'm saying Well maybe something like that But again it won't stay that way for very long Now I'm talking about Is life suffering or not You haven't You know this is not something This is something that's really important to you Are you miserable or not

[61:13]

Well I think I'm not miserable Okay fine Yeah but I might have to divide Opinions about that Like what? In some cases I do think I do think there's suffering In several other cases That doesn't characterize See now this is it He's coming out So you're saying He said what if you don't know But he just said and he does know You know you do not believe the first novel true You don't You just said it You think there's some situations that aren't true Where you actually are happy And you're satisfied And basically everything's fine That's what you think This is called thinking that this truth Is wrong You think it's wrong at that time Now it's also possible other times you think No I think it's right But that wouldn't make sense you think it's right Because you can remember that a few seconds ago You thought it was wrong It's not that kind of thing It doesn't like work one minute and not the next I would say that what you're saying here today Your present view is that you do not think

[62:14]

The first novel truth is true In the sense of really the way it is And maybe the next two categories you go along with But you don't think it's really the way things are Because you think sometimes you're not miserable Right? Isn't that what you're saying? Yeah so that's good that you admit that It's called telling the truth I call it that anyway Okay Now if you want to you can talk with me or other people About whether you really Think you're happy at those times that you thought you were happy I know he has What is it Rob? Sorry Yeah what are you doing having a question I told you So along the lines That Rook just brought up About things that are in my experience I appreciate what you're saying That we do have convictions about these things But about I prefer to get a little trickier Because that's metaphysical Or super empirical And it's a little more difficult to make decisions About things like that I still may have opinions about them

[63:14]

And this may also be social pressure That I try to withhold it Or that I say I just don't know But it really does feel like I really don't know What do you think about that? That kind of not knowing About this metaphysical assertion That I have a previous life and I will have a future life Versus not knowing You mean do I think There's any validity to not knowing? Yes Am I not having a strong Conviction about that being true? What I'm suggesting to you Is that You do And you may also have Another realm where you don't But you do, you do think it's true or false There are metaphysical things We can think metaphysical things Are things that we can't see We can think that True or false And when you get pushed You will finally choose One or the other That's what I'm saying For starters When you get into also looking at it in terms of

[64:15]

These other two ways Is it practical? If it's practical you don't have to get into Whether it's metaphysically true No, you don't, do you? Is that clear? So you can In that case too You can say I don't really know But I do think it's practical Or I don't think it's practical The Chinese were extremely happy to hear about Reincarnation when they heard about it They loved it They just loved it In both those senses It was practical and it fit with their whole system Of thought and everything It was just beautiful, they just loved it But they didn't think it was true right away In this way of actually Thinking that it was true It took them a long time to come to that one So I think skepticism You know Is very much part of this whole thing Skepticism Is very much part of the whole thing And that will lead you to

[65:17]

Those next two things First It is good to be skeptical About what you think is true That will protect you That will help to protect you from self-righteousness That will help you from Using what you think is true as a mallet Against yourself and other beings And skepticism is related to Agnosticism And not being sure Questioning How are you doing? I still have one One more question The way I would determine whether What my conviction is about rebirth Is to determine what my fears are Am I afraid of dying or not? If I feel afraid of dying, I guess that would mean That I'm not that willing to have a conviction of rebirth No, not necessarily People who believe in rebirth as true Are much more afraid of dying than people who don't believe in it Much more People who don't believe in it think Western materialists think they're going to die

[66:20]

And they think basically Well, I don't know what's going to happen Basically, I think what's going to happen is There's not going to be any more me It's going to be the end of life And maybe it's sleep Maybe it does But it's not as bad as people who think That they're going to be reborn Think this might happen to them Anyway, the people who think about In the West too, we have We have rebirth They say you're going to go to hell, that's rebirth You are going to hell And you're going there for a while, right? Eternal, eternal Eternal torture Is that right? Isn't that rebirth? That's good enough That's what Buddhists call rebirth in a hell state Now today, most people don't think they're going to go to hell They just think, you know Shakespeare says To die To sleep To dream Ah, that's the rub You start dreaming there

[67:21]

And what do you dream of? You dream of another world Just like you dream of this one, you dream of another one And what's it going to be? What's that world dream going to be? It might be hell Haven't you done some naughty things? Haven't you heard that a couple of those naughty things Should be sufficient to put you into a Into a real bad dream I have done things Which could put me into a real bad dream That's why I'm practicing Fairly intensely So that when that dream manifests I see some, I feel that some Bad dreams are coming up for me Which I'm going to Which are going to seem, because I'm human They're going to seem real See, human beings don't like It's not the natural human thing when they see a dream to say Oh, that's just a dream Our thing is That is true Or this is not true You know, all those New Yorker cartoons

[68:22]

About these people negotiating when they get You know, after dying, going to heaven and hell St. Peter, you know, where are you going to go? They're really a big deal about which way you go Because we tend to believe the dream So So, rebirth is That we are going to go into Another dream And if it's heaven Even that's dangerous Whatever the dream is You better practice because when you hit that dream You're going to take it as real Probably because, you know And it isn't just human animals that take Dreams as real Other animals take their dreams as real too They have their, you know, what do you call it? Flies have certain, you know They have a different dream from us, rats have a different dream But they take those, they think those are real We're built like that too So, we got some stuff coming for us It's good to be, like, have a practice That will take it through that. What's the practice? Four Noble Truths The Buddha said, these four truths Understand them and you will be able to go through Those dreams that are coming up for you And these four Noble Truths say

[69:24]

You've got some dreams coming Right view says More dreams are coming And you can't control these dreams You can't control them Quite a few have been set already And they're coming They're coming to you From past life, you've got a set of dreams coming to you That's part of the first Fall of the path So you better drop That attachment thing Otherwise when these dreams come Not only are you going to get Tortured But then you're going to react to the torture And that's going to make more torture You better, like, start practicing That's what rebirth If it's a void It's a different response It's time to stop Ladies and gentlemen So Thank you for Entering this discussion

[70:25]

Which you can interpret in these three ways What happened here Was it true? Was it false? Was it practical? Or was it just what we were talking about? I suggest you use all three methods as soon as possible Thank you Ladies and gentlemen

[70:54]

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