Last weekend, we had a retreat at Mama Donna, and the topic of the retreat was two ways of entering Buddha's wisdom. One way is within the psyche, intra-psychic. And the other way is interpersonal. So the... The inter-psychic way is, I would say, practicing stillness. And the interpersonal way, you go and meet a teacher and listen to the teaching or ask about the teaching. But I would also, apropos of today, say you go to the teacher And you express yourself and ask questions and get feedback.

[01:11]

But you can also go and be quiet and receive the teachings, too. Both of those are going on. So this could be applied to... These two dimensions could be applied to the... we talked about this morning, is that you, interpsychically, you receive something. You receive, in your mind, you receive the teachings. In your mind, you receive the bodhisattva precepts. And in your mind, you might think, oh, They're really good. I really want to practice those. And then you aspire to them. And then you watch the receiving and the aspiring and the practicing within your mind.

[02:14]

Then you also go and talk to a teacher and you tell the teacher how it's going. Or ask the teacher for more information about the precepts which you have received. in which we're trying to practice. And we need both of these. We need to work on the teachings in our own mind, and we need to dialogue with others about how we're doing the practice. So the... The interpsychic has been described as practice and enlightenment, or unifying the practice with enlightenment within your own body and mind. Going to see the teacher helps us let our mind move freely with the teaching.

[03:19]

So the dialogue with the teacher on the teaching can help us... interact in such a way that our mind works freely with the teaching. And so there are, yeah, so many examples of the dialogue and showing points of sticking and points of release. Interpsychically, you know, I could have a dream of the kind of life I want to have. I have a wish in my mind and body for the way I want to live. And then I go and tell someone my dream, I tell someone my wish.

[04:24]

And then you get some feedback on your wish and your understanding of your wish. And you and the other person work in such a way that you get a bigger perspective on your wish than you could get just in your own mind. And then you go back to working within your own mind. And then also, you learn when you're dialoguing, when you're interpersonally relating, you learn how to work within your mind at the same time. So, for example, you could be receiving the precept of stillness and aspiring to practice stillness. and practicing stillness within your own mind.

[05:45]

And then you go see the teacher and you start talking about this receiving and aspiring to stillness. And while you're talking you have the opportunity to continue to receive and practice the stillness while you're talking about the practice. You know, some people, they feel like they're doing quite well in their own mind, receiving and aspiring and practicing stillness. But when they start talking to someone, they get, you know, disoriented in the words. Because words can turn us. Or you could go, you could be contemplating within your own psyche, within your own body-mind, the practice of stillness, and you go up to meet someone, and you know that if you start talking to them, or if they start talking, you know that the conversation might be disorienting.

[07:07]

So you tense up and try to hold on. to your contemplation of stillness, you become rigid because you don't want to get disoriented from your practice while you're talking even to a teacher about the practice. And then the conversation might go on such that maybe the teacher or the relationship is such that the holding to this wonderful practice is revealed. And you can notice that you've got this practice and it is wonderful, but you're holding on to it. And maybe the teacher's like touching that holding point and saying, can you take care of this teaching that you've received and that you're aspiring to, can you take care of it without holding on to it? Can you uphold it and let go of it?

[08:13]

So one way is people either go to meet the teacher and tense up so that the conversation will not disorient them, or they go and the conversation does disorient them, because partly they're flexible. And a lot of people don't go to the teacher at all because they kind of know that they might get disoriented. And sometimes people come to talk about the teaching and... The teacher feels that they can't really discuss it anymore until the person goes and contemplates it themselves. Like someone might come and say, I'd like to receive the teaching about stillness. And the teacher might say, why don't you go and sit quietly and sit still with your wish to receive the transmission of the teaching of stillness? Why don't you do that before you come and talk to me about it? Does that make sense?

[09:18]

In other words, you need to work within yourself with this wish to receive the teaching of stillness. Once you feel like you have received it within your mind, then come to me and we can see if we can discuss it. And to see if you're open to being disoriented. So two stories come to mind. One is that one of Suzuki... Anyway, somebody was sitting in meditation. And it was raining. And he heard the rain. And then at the same time he heard the rain, he also heard the sound of a waterfall in the distance. So he heard the waterfall... and the rain at the same time. And then somebody hit the wooden board.

[10:20]

And so he went to the teacher and he said, what is the place where the sound of the wooden board and the sound of the waterfall and the sound of the rain meet? And then from the song of the jewel mirror samadhi, you could say, well, the place they meet is in that samadhi. But, you know, you could say that. And then the precious mirror samadhi says, true eternity still flows. They meet, and you could say they all meet in eternity. Anyway, the teacher then said, true eternity still flows. Where they meet, true eternity still flows.

[11:25]

And then the student said, is there anything beyond that? And the teacher said, yes. Break the mirror and bring it to me. And we can meet. So in this case, there doesn't seem to be much sticking. The teacher's giving two instructions about not sticking. This place that you're asking me about where these sounds meet, there is a place like that, but it's not something you can get a hold of. This wonderful place is flowing. The student accepted this instruction. He might not have been trying to get a hold of it again. He might not have been trying to get a hold of it in the beginning, but he was sort of asked, where is it? And the teacher said, Wherever it is, it flows. You can't get a hold of it.

[12:26]

And then he could, again, say, is there anything beyond that without trying to get it again, but just wondering. The teacher says, break the mirror and bring it to me and we can meet. So the teacher's instructing, giving instructions about how to work with stillness without getting stuck in working with stillness. And another story is the one about the director of the monastery and the teacher. The teacher's name is Dharma I. And the teacher Dharma I said to the director of the temple, why don't you ever come and talk to me? Why don't you ever do interpersonal practice with me? Why don't you come and listen to the teaching? Why don't you come and tell me about your practice and dialogue with me so I can see if you have any sticking points.

[13:28]

But he didn't say all that. He just says, why don't you come and see me? So the monk was practicing, the director of the monastery monk was practicing intra-psychically somewhere or another. Well, we don't know how. How do we know how? Because he comes to meet us and talk to us about it. So everybody's working interpsychically, but how are they working? Do they know? Maybe. Do I know? No. If they come and tell me, then I start to find out how they're working interpsychically. But maybe they don't want me to know how they're working interpsychically, so they don't come and meet me. And maybe the way they're working interpsychically is they think, I'm already enlightened, I don't need to go interact interpersonally anymore. I don't need a teacher to help me not be stuck in my understanding, because I have a perfect understanding and I'm not stuck in it.

[14:33]

So therefore, I don't have to go see the teacher. So I don't go see the teacher. But then the teacher says to me, why don't you go see me sometime? And then I tell the teacher. So the director tells the teacher, well, didn't you know that I had entry into enlightenment with this other teacher? So, in fact, he was working interpsychically, like we all do. And guess what was going on there? He thought he had completely enlightened understanding of the teaching. So what need to talk? And his understanding, which he thought was complete, it didn't necessitate going to dialogue anymore. This is a mistake. The teacher, the enlightened teacher, he needs to dialogue.

[15:36]

Why doesn't the enlightened student? The teacher needs the students to come and talk. That's the kind of enlightenment they have. It's not like, I'm enlightened so I don't have to see the teacher. Plus, I don't need to talk to students. I'm fine. Some teachers don't think they need students to come and talk about the Dharma with them. Some students think they're enlightened and don't have to go to the teacher. This is the example here. The director thought he had enlightenment with another teacher, therefore he didn't have to go talk to this one. But this one was wondering why it didn't come, because this one doesn't think that anybody doesn't need to come. Everybody needs to come. The enlightened ones need to come and to see if they're attached to their enlightenment. The unenlightened ones need to come and get education in their enlightenment. But the director thought, not necessary, because I already had enlightenment enough.

[16:42]

So the teacher says, oh yeah? Well, tell me about it. So he told him about it. He said, I asked the teacher, what is the self of the student? And the teacher said, the fire god comes bearing fire. And I understood. And then the teacher thought, I said, well, how did you understand? And he explained. The teacher said, Ah, that's what I thought, and you didn't understand. But the director actually was kind of holding on to that he did understand.

[17:45]

So when the teacher said he didn't, he had some trouble with that. He got severely disoriented and got angry and didn't attack the teacher. but just left the monastery. So he had an understanding. He was holding on to it. He may not have known he was holding on to it, but when he went to the teacher, but because he was holding on to it, he didn't go see the teacher. So all the people who are holding on to their enlightenment, not all of them, a lot of them, don't go see the teacher. They don't think they need it. Plus, they, on some level, may feel like, well, what if the teacher disagrees with me? I don't want to hear about that. But some do come. Anyway. This one didn't really come. He got invited without him asking to come.

[18:48]

The teacher gave him an interview that he didn't want. And then the teacher seemed to find out that he was stuck in his enlightenment. and didn't want any backtalk. But then the teacher gave him backtalk. And again, he didn't want backtalk. And he left. And after he left, as he was walking away, he thought, well, he is a well-known teacher, and he does have 1,500 students, So maybe he has something to offer. Maybe I'll give him another chance. So he went back. And also, after he left, the teacher said to the attendant, if that monk comes back, he can be liberated. If he doesn't come back, he will not be able to be liberated. So if we are holding on to our understanding or holding on to our mind, and the teacher...

[19:56]

pushes on it, and we run away, it's not too late if we come back. But if we don't come back, we can't be helped. And if we're not holding on, then we naturally would offer our understanding to be interacted with. So he did come back and And he said, well, please, I'm open to some instruction. So the teacher said, ask me the same question you asked the other teacher. So he did. He said, what is the self of the student? And the teacher said, fire God brings, comes, bearing fire. And he could say he woke up again, or he could say he woke up for the first time. And this time when he woke up, He was not attached to his understanding.

[21:00]

So when we aspire to these precepts and try to practice them, sometimes we feel like I'm not doing well with these precepts. So we go talk to the teacher. And we confess and repent. And then the teacher interacts with us in such a way that although we did have the story of our failure, and we're sorry about that, our mind doesn't need to be stuck in that story, the story that we failed, the story that we transgressed. But in order to not dwell in the story that we transgressed, we have to go tell the story that we transgressed to see if we can tell it without getting stuck in it. So we tell the story interpersonally, to see if we can inter-psychically not be stuck in telling a story. Or you could tell the story of, I transgressed into being stuck.

[22:12]

I confess I got stuck. I'm sorry I got stuck. And now I'm telling you I got stuck. And now that I'm telling you I got stuck, I'm not stuck. The teacher doesn't have to even say anything. You can say, I'm stuck. And then you can say, I'm not stuck. And the teacher can say, you're stuck. And you can say, I hear you. And you don't know what you're talking about. And the teacher can say, you're right. I don't know what I'm talking about. That's going and saying, I confess I transgressed. Okay? Okay. But we're not supposed to dwell in that. And we could also go and say, guess what happened? I'm not transgressing anymore. And not only that, but I'm not dwelling in that story I just told you. I'm not transgressing.

[23:12]

But that is my story. I'm so happy I'm not transgressing. But I'm even more happy that I don't dwell in that story. I don't abide in the story of no more transgressions. And the teacher says, great, I have a medal of honor for you. May I pin it on? And the student runs out of the room. No, no, don't get me that medal. The teacher says, very good, see you later. So once again, there is the possibility of receiving the gift of all kinds of teachings and practices, aspiring to practice them, and then trying. And having stories that we are successful.

[24:14]

Hey, I think I was kind of kind at that moment. Hey, I think I wasn't. Having stories of how we're doing with these practices. That's how we work. And then... We bring our work to an interpersonal interaction to get help to make sure we're not missing something or that we're not getting stuck in our work. Yes? How did the student break the mirror? How did he break it? I didn't hear about that part. The teacher just said, break the mirror and come to me. It didn't say about him breaking the mirror. The story ends then. But we can say, how do you break the mirror, Jackie? Well, that's my question. Yeah. Your question is, how do I break the mirror? Right? Well, let's say, how do I, how do you break the mirror?

[25:17]

How do I break the mirror? All of us. Yeah. I think, how do I break the mirror? That could be an extension of the story, which I didn't hear about. So... I didn't hear it. He broke the mirror. But you can ask, after hearing that story, I'm wondering how I can break the mirror. How would you break the mirror, teacher? I would break the mirror by practicing stillness with the mirror. Anybody got a mirror on them? Pass me a mirror, and I vow to practice stillness with it. And if I practice stillness with the mirror... It'll get broken. Not because I break it, but because I'm not attached to the precious mirror samadhi. Like the precious mirror samadhi says about itself. If you touch me, I'll break.

[26:20]

If you turn away from me, I'll break. So my being still... It'll break two. That was three at the same time. Okay. One. I would break the mirror by singing the old song in a new way. Two. Three. You got me off guard. Four. I'm curious about the role of the Sangha. You're talking about the relationship with the teacher, but what about the Sangha and peers? Same. You act interpersonally with the Sangha around your practice. But the Sangha is not in an interview room. So you actually go meet the teacher. But if you go to other people, like you're going to meet the teacher, even though they're not called officially a teacher, that's...

[27:25]

That's good. If you go to other people, respecting them and asking them questions about the Dharma and listening to their teaching of the Dharma, then you're going to the teacher. If you go to interact with people and you're not talking about the Dharma and you're not listening to Dharma, then that's not what we're talking about. But if that's the way you talk to people, that's what we're talking about. And of course, if you go to the teacher, I don't know if it's of course, it's almost of course that if you go to the teacher, what you're going to be talking about is the Dharma. The teacher, you know, is kind of the specialist, right? So you're not going to talk to the teacher about not the Dharma. That really wouldn't be appropriate because the teacher doesn't know anything about that. So you go and talk to the teacher about the Dharma, You listen to it, you ask questions about it.

[28:26]

If you relate to other people that way, then that's what we're talking about. Thank you very much for another lovely day. I hope this was a new song.

[28:46]

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