This is not very important, but still, probably just for your information, on Thursday at around 3 o'clock, I had a surgical procedure where a skillful physician cut open my thigh and took these out. They were inside my thigh. For 15 years. Okay. And recently, these screws have been, you know, causing more pain and more pain. So finally we decided to take them out. And so here they are. And my legs getting used to the consequences. surgery and also these these things not being in inside there wiggling around so i'm going through a physical adjustment and i'm full of gratitude and someone asked me last night what i was going to be doing today and i said well there's a sitting at no boat i'm going to go to and

[01:30]

They thought it was really ridiculous that I was going to come over here and do this thing today here. But I said, I'll be really careful. Don't worry. I'll take care of the body. Thank you for coming. And so since our last one day sitting, we had a New Year's greeting. And I think at the New Year's greeting, I brought up something which I was intending to emphasize this year, especially at the beginning, which is a story.

[02:34]

from one of our Zen classics called The Book of Serenity. It's the fourth story in The Book of Serenity. And the name of the story is The World Honored One Points to the Earth. I wrote that out here. World Honored One points to the earth. And I wrote it around the side, too. World Honored One points to the earth. World Honored One points to the earth. Points, points. I intend to keep working on this calligraphy. And when it's really beautiful, I'll give you a copy. Wonderful, sir. So, the name of the story is The World Honored One Points to the Earth.

[03:42]

And the story goes like this. I'm sort of catching you up, because I've been in an intensive meditation. Prior to the surgery, I had an intensive meditation experience with people at Green Gulch for three weeks. And one of the main focuses of that meditation retreat was this story. So I'm trying to catch you up with the teaching train that's been going on for the last three weeks. Because I'm sort of on this train and I want you to get on the train. So the beginning, the engine of the train, in a way, is a story. One day. the world honored one walking along on the face of the earth, probably in India, with a group, his group, big group.

[04:50]

And the world honored one pointed to the ground. This character here means point and also finger. The world honored one pointed to the earth and said, this is a good spot to build a sanctuary. Indra, the leader of the gods and goddesses, took a blade of grass and stuck it in the earth and said, the sanctuary is built. The engine of the train is, this is a good place to build a sanctuary. Every moment of phenomenal experience is a good place to build a sanctuary.

[06:03]

And one definition of a sanctuary is a place of refuge or safety. Many people now are, I think, sympathetic to the project of building a sanctuary moment by moment in this world. So that's a basic program. Again, this place here is a sanctuary, but also each moment in this place is a good time and a good place. And wherever we are, the Buddha is saying, whatever is happening is a good place to build a sanctuary, to build a place of refuge. Earth, this place on Earth is a good place.

[07:20]

So I try to keep that in mind every moment. And I'm very happy to try to keep it in mind, and I'm very happy when I remember it. Remember and remember. I'm very happy to do that. Now, a sanctuary or a refuge, a refuge means a place to return to. For what? Well, for me, I guess what I'm emphasizing now is a place, a refuge for practicing face-to-face transmission of the truth, face-to-face transmission of peace, face-to-face transmission of justice.

[08:30]

a sanctuary, a refuge for doing the Buddha's work. Buddha's work is face-to-face meeting and transmitting the truth, the Dharma, together. That's what I'm sort of remembering as Buddha's work, which I want to remember and... give my face to. I want to give my face to this transmission face to face of the Buddha's life. And I also want to welcome the face of the other. Because this transmission is going in both direct and in both directions. We're doing it together.

[09:45]

We're doing the transmission together, face-to-face. That's the kind of transmission it is, I believe. And I did a piece of calligraphy. Here, which I brought. If you want, you can have a copy. In Japanese, it's pronounced menju. And the first character, the top character, means face, men. And the next character means to give or bestow or entrust. So it means give the face. means give your face.

[10:51]

But also, it's to give your face to another face, so it's also to receive that other face. And this giving and receiving is the Dharma transmission of the Buddhas, which we could practice if we remember that this is a good place to practice it. Maybe if you say you're going to know a boat and somebody says, that's ridiculous, you might forget to build a sanctuary in the middle of that accusation. Which you might not. You might say, oh, I'm being accused of being a fool. Well, this is a good time to build a sanctuary. So this is one way to talk about the work of Buddhas, is face-to-face transmission.

[12:10]

Over on the side here is my name, which means what can be translated as the whole works. The whole works actually is face-to-face transmission. That's what I am. I'm face-to-face transmission. But also, the whole works means the whole universe. Right? And the whole universe is face-to-face transmission of reality. And also, the whole works means that the whole works. It's not an unemployed whole. It's a whole that works. And the way it works is face-to-face.

[13:20]

Another way to say this is a face-to-face conversation. This, this, and this, always this, right here, right now, is a good place and a good time to have a face-to-face conversation with another. a genuine, fully responsible conversation. That is Buddha's work.

[15:00]

And this that this conversation, this meeting, of bringing your face to meet another face, it has the potential that you bring all of yourself to meet all of the other. But two wholes meet. And in this meeting, The life of Buddha is there. And in the wholeness of this meeting, face to face, you have to give your face. You've got to have a face. And you do. And you've got to give it.

[16:11]

and the other descent. And in the wholeness of this meeting, of two wholes, if it's an ethical meeting, if it's an ethical relationship of meeting, then the I, the self-conscious The self-centered consciousness is put in question. And it's put in question, not... The self-consciousness is not put in question by itself, but that's okay. The real put to question comes from the other. So part of the fullness of the meeting is that the other puts this self in question.

[17:23]

Buddha's word is face-to-face meeting with an other. And in this full authentic meeting, I am put in question. And what I think and what I believe is put in question by the other. And as I said earlier, it's okay if I question myself too. That's not enough. You need the other to question, like, what are you doing tomorrow? Going to know a board. Are you crazy? Maybe so. In the intensive at Gringot, during the Dharma talks, there wasn't a question and answer, but then on Sundays, there was a question and answer after the Dharma talk.

[19:49]

So, it seemed really appropriate for this kind of practice of face-to-face meeting, and for... And for me to be put into question, it's certainly important to start a conversation now. And I want to just mention that somebody sent me a letter recently about a conversation that was going on in her family. And it was a conversation between her and her son, and then also between her son and her son's father. And the conversation was about the boy being very enthusiastic about entering a musical training academy.

[20:52]

He really wanted to join this academy. And his mother suggested that his mother felt very supportive and happy that he was so enthusiastic about this wholesome enterprise. So they had a face-to-face conversation about it. And she suggested to him that he talk to his father about it, too. And he did. And then when he was talking to his father, his father reminded him that he had entered into another training program around basketball. And that the father and the son, but in particular, the father really enjoyed doing this basketball thing with his boy. And so there was some difficulty about stopping basketball.

[22:00]

because commitments had been made and also the father would miss out, would miss this basketball thing if the boy stopped the basketball. It wasn't feasible to do the basketball and the music program. So it seemed like you'd have to give up the basketball to do the music or give up the music to continue the basketball. And the father was struggling with this, and the son was struggling with this, and the mother was struggling watching them struggle in this conversation. And there was some feeling that the father wanted to let the son do something he really wanted to do, but also the father was feeling some sorrow about not being able to do the basketball thing with his boy. And the boy knew that and kind of was thinking about giving up the music to continue the basketball with his father.

[23:05]

Because he knew how much the father enjoyed that. So they talked this over, both knowing that the other loved them and the other had some desires which conflicted with theirs. And they continued the conversation. Now, the basketball program actually is a conversation too, and also the music program is a conversation. So those are conversations also. But to me, the touching thing is not so much which way it goes, basketball or music, the touching thing is the conversation. And the conversation is going on right now. And this is what I would like to encourage, is this conversation.

[24:18]

Sometimes Zen students think about Zen practice as something that, you know, they go and they sit in meditation. They're doing it by themselves. And I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that Zen practice is a conversation. The Buddha way is a genuine, fully responsible conversation. And then I could also say that Zen practice is reality.

[25:30]

That's what Zen practice is. Zen practice is reality. And I can also say, reality actually is a conversation. That's what's really going on in this universe. It's a conversation. So, Zen is a conversation. The reality of the universe is a conversation. And it's a wholehearted conversation. So I invite you to devote your life to reality, to devote your life to a wholehearted face-to-face meeting right here at this spot, moment by moment.

[26:39]

Today, I had several meetings here before I came here to talk to you. Back in that room, I met one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. About eight people. And guess what happened? We met face-to-face. We had a conversation. We practiced Zen. Yay! We practiced Zen together this morning. Face-to-face conversations.

[28:00]

We enacted the reality of the universe together. Now, the people who were not in that room having a conversation there were in another room. Maybe you were there in another room having a conversation. But maybe you didn't notice that you were having a conversation. And maybe the people back in that room didn't notice they were having a conversation. But they were. I assert that. Everybody in that room was having conversations. And maybe not too many people arguing, but some people might have forgotten. Right in the middle of the conversation, it's possible to forget you're having a conversation. It's amazing. We can do that.

[29:02]

I'm not having a conversation. I'm just telling you what's going on here. I'm having a conversation, but you're not. People often ask me when I say, when I talk about a wholehearted, fully responsible meeting with another, they say, what if the other person doesn't want to? What if they're not interested in talking to you? What if they think you're not a, what do you call it? A worthy interlocutor. You know what inter-locutor means? You know what inter means? Between. You know what locutor means? Speakers. Inter-speaker. It's the person you're talking to. And you never... This conversation never starts or stops. It's reality. What if the other person doesn't want to?

[30:06]

Well, I would say then that's the person you're talking to, somebody who doesn't want to. And actually, they fully don't want to. People in this room were also having a conversation. But you weren't talking, probably, to anybody. We were talking in your head, maybe. Another layer of this, which I didn't mention, is that in this place now, at this time now, I want to build a sanctuary with you, face to face, in silence and stillness. I want this conversation to be in silence.

[31:07]

The sanctuary doesn't really talk in a way. It's the silent place. The sanctuary doesn't move. It's the universe making a place for the conversation. So, also good to remember, if you can remember, if you want to build a sanctuary moment by moment for this world, if you want to, then I would say it would be nice if you remember that. If you want to, I pray you remember, you want to. Then I also think it would be good to remember stillness, because stillness is the place to build the sanctuary. And silence. And then give your face to the world. So you can be met. the world meets you at your face. So give it. And you do give it. So get with the program of your face and reality.

[32:17]

So I have these screws which are meeting each other. Aren't they big? So I have a post-operative face-to-face meeting with the surgeon. We're going to have a conversation. And I'm going to ask him some questions about these schools. How were they in my down in the side? How were they operating? What were they deeming? What was the purpose? And now that they're gone, is everything going to be okay? And I'm going to say to him, thank you very much. You did a great job. You got the whole screw out. He told me beforehand, worst case scenario is just cut the tips of the screw, the part that's scraping the interior of the thigh.

[33:31]

The best is to get the whole thing out. But you have to have just the right, excuse the expression, hardware to get them out. And sometimes these screws strip, you know, they get embedded in the situation. So he got these screws out. He got the right hardware. He had to do some research. He had to go check, you know, the surgical records in Houston, Texas, to find out what the surgeon narrated, what kind of screws he had, what kind of wrenches he had. So he had the right equipment. And he told me before, I got the right hardware. And so I'm going to thank him for doing a really good job. We're going to have a nice conversation. Not nice, we're going to have a wholehearted conversation. Which might be nice. I'm going to thank him. And I'm going to thank you.

[34:38]

And I'm going to invite you to practice wholehearted conversation, which means I'm going to invite you to practice the Buddha way, which means I'm going to invite you to practice Zen. And I'm going to try to give myself to meet you face to face. Okay, Tim? Anything you want to tell me? Would you please say yes? Yes. Thank you. Is there anything else anybody wants to say at this time?

[35:43]

Are you pointing to the Earth? Hello. Hello. So, the question occurs to me, for me to think about, too, but what is space? What is space? If the universe is space, or functions with them. Yeah. So where you, you know, it's like, that's a sort of infinite question. Where, what is my face? I agree with you. She laughed and then she got real serious all of us. Is this funny or not? I bet. Kind of like, is it funny or not? Is it funny or not? Well. It might be funny.

[36:49]

That's funny. Anyway, you said infinite, and it is infinite. This is about infinity. This is about using a finite thing to meet some finite things to realize an infinite thing. So in a way, there's two kinds of faces. There's the face after you were born. And then there's the famous Zen face before, not just before you were born, but before your parents were born. You heard about that one? It's the original face. Our practice is to realize your original face, which is always here. Which is, you know, invisible. From the whole face. From the whole face. The whole face is invisible.

[37:52]

The human face is visible. The human face is visible. See? And I give the visible human face to visible human faces. I do. And I want to. And it's funny. Sometimes. And that's funny. I said you said indivisible. You said invisible. I said invisible. The indivisible face is invisible. So, yeah, so, our practice is to realize our original face, our invisible face, And I just would say, while I'm here talking, that a conversation between visible faces opens the door to the original face.

[39:02]

You know, the original invisible face. The Bruna's face. Which is... what our face really is. And what our face really is is this completely other from our face to our original face. But we can't skip over our limited face. When somebody, after the last, I think it was after the New Year's sitting, somebody said to me as I was leaving the abode, the teaching was too hard. And I didn't really want to stay much longer, so I left. The person said this, I was walking out of nowhere, and they said the teaching was too hard. But then later I said, what do you mean too hard? And she said, well, I assume that when you say...

[40:15]

You know, face-to-face meeting, you mean like, you know, to really wholeheartedly meet the person. And in these times, I sometimes feel overwhelmed and just want to hide. So... It's sometimes hard to do the basic work of meeting another human face. People are having a lot of trouble with certain faces these days. Absolutely. They're like, you know, they're having trouble with certain faces. And to, like, wholeheartedly, with full responsibility, meeting certain faces. And so if I say, so the teaching about meeting fully and being fully responsible, if somebody says, it's too hard, it's overwhelming, I just want to hide. So I honor that statement because it does sometimes seem hard to meet another human face.

[41:24]

But it is... This is an unavoidable opportunity. You can't avoid it. And also, if you want to accomplish... What? If you want to accomplish... to boot away, you've got to meet human faces. If you want to meet the invisible face of reality, you have to use your language and talk to other human faces. It's such a great opportunity and it's so sometimes difficult. So if you think it's difficult, if you feel it's difficult, I know, we've got a lot of company that feels difficult. But still, we've got to do it. If we want to have this transmission of the Dharma.

[42:28]

Which I think we do. We just rather not do all the work. The gory work. Okay? Okay? Okay, yes? When you're exhausted, like for example recovering from surgery, and you aspire to rise to the occasion and bring yourself to this meeting completely, How do you do that? How do you find the energy for that? I endeavor to give my face fully to the exhaustion.

[43:58]

And then the other comes to meet me. But if I, you know, don't accept this exhausted face, if I don't accept the face of the exhausted one, if I don't give my face, my exhausted face, to the meeting, then the wonder-working function of the meeting is kind of like distance. I put it at a distance. I don't allow myself. Because I don't allow myself to be this exhausted one. So then I don't allow myself to have the meeting. So I told some of many of you this story, which maybe you heard six times. We don't know yet whether you did or not, right? Because there's so many stories which you might have heard, right?

[45:07]

So you don't know which one it is yet. So this is a story about me taking a walk with a very nice man in the hills of Green Gulch. Did you hear that story? I read it. Huh? Remember it. We remember it. And you don't remember it, right? I remember at least one that matches that description. It might not be the same one. Want to tell the rest of it? Well, I remember... Start? I remember you were going for a walk with a nice person, having a conversation. Mm-hmm. And... Can you hear? And for a while... I was taking a walk with a person and having a conversation. And... For a while, enjoying the conversation and feeling like it was good. Yeah, that's the one. Should I keep going, or do you want to tell it? Can you hear him? Can you hear him? You tell him, and I'll say it. I'll amplify it. So, yes? And then I... After a while... After a while...

[46:14]

It seemed like the conversation had run its course. It seemed like the conversation had run its course. It was complete. It was complete. It seemed like that to... To you. To me. Correct. But the conversation was still going. But the conversation continued. Mostly him talking. This nice guy. And so then I think you told us that you said... Thanks a lot. I'm going to go now. Yeah, that's the end. Yeah. But you missed the middle. Oh. The middle was prompted by the word exhaustion. That's what reminded me of this story. Because this is a story of where, you know, exhaustion means to come to the end, right? Exhale. The conversation had exhale. I was exhausted.

[47:17]

And so he said, what are you doing? You know, you're having a meeting and you're exhausted. And he kept talking. And I was, and I was, and I didn't want to like be rude and say, you know, let me out of here. But I was like being suffocated. And the more I felt suffocated, the less energy I had to say, can I go? Let me out of here. But I didn't want to talk like that, because he's a nice guy. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. But the more I felt like I wanted to get away, and the less my energy was, the more he tried to perk me up with talking faster and giving me less chance to get a word in edgewise. And I was, you know, my... I was getting more and more exhausted and feeling more and more uncomfortable and not wanting to be rude or unappreciative of this nice person who was strangling me.

[48:25]

But as I more and more felt the exhaustion, like on the verge of death, practically, in the middle of this conversation, like life and death, I had green gulch. A voice came. Do you remember what the voice said? No. The voice said, I love you, Rebbe. I think it was my father's voice, maybe. And at the fullness of accepting the exhaustion and suffocation of the conversation, This is like major, major problem here I've got. This voice of compassion came and energized me. And I said, thanks for the conversation and walked away. And it wasn't rude. It was just like, see you later. So that's, you know, when you can't meet the person, when you don't have the energy in the pit of exhaustion, if you accept it,

[49:41]

this inconceivable power of the other comes to you. But if I'm not willing, the power of other means not just one person, but totally beyond what I can imagine and delivering just what we need, it comes, but it won't come if I'm not willing to be exactly myself, which is like exhausted, like trapped in a conversation, you know, who knows how long. Which I, you know, before I started, like, okay, you're going to have a conversation now, and it's going to lead to a really unworkable situation. You know, it's going to be terrible. Are you ready for it? Yes. No, it was like very nice, and then somehow we're into this pit. But I accepted it, and salvation came in that... But it's hard to accept exhaustion.

[50:45]

To the fullness of it, to be fully responsible. And fully responsible doesn't mean I blame him. Even though I could see he was responding to me. He was contributing to the situation, but it wasn't his fault. He wasn't to be blamed. We were doing this together, and we ended it together. But we couldn't end it together until I... was willing to be the suffocated one completely. And when I was, this wonderful voice came, I love you, Rabbi. It's time. It's the moment. And every moment is like that. There's a time to end it. But we don't see it. Unless we're fully there. And it's hard to be fully here. Often. Always, actually. Even if it's pleasant, it's hard to be not overdoing it or underdoing it.

[51:49]

Yes. Do you feel we're caught up now? Nope. It's going to take a few more talks for you to be caught up. It was a rhetorical question. I figured that. It was a rhetorical question, and it was funny that I didn't understand. Yes? I wondered if you have plans for your screws and at some point when you feel like you're ready, we might be able to make them part of a wind chime and hang them in the back.

[52:55]

Yeah, it's possible. There is a Buddhist tradition of having relics of sages. So usually, first you cremate the person, then you find the relics. If you cremated me, you would have found these sites, and people would say, whoa, he's really a great saint. Look at these huge relics. Less than yes. I want to go back to the face and to the story. Yeah, go back to the face. And because of the story, you were in that question, like, wait a minute, get back here, or I'm not done yet. Then I thought, because you're Red, man, who is Red? And then all these faces came to me of their relationship to power

[54:03]

How question is this? That's part of, again, part of an ethical relationship with the other is to work with questions around power. That would be part of ethics. It's to question how the power is working and to realize freedom from power. Freedom with power. Everybody's got power. But most people are caught in egocentric ways of working with it. All egos have power. But we need to have our egocentric power in question in order to find an ethical way to use our power. We don't figure out by our We don't solipsistically figure out how to use my consciousness and not how to figure out how to use my power ethically.

[55:13]

I can try. People would say, and people can tell me. They can give me a hint. You should use your egocentric power ethically. Okay, thank you. Am I supposed to figure out by myself? No. I mean, some people think I should. They assign me to use... whatever power I have, egocentric power or self-power I have, to use it ethically. I would say, well, don't abandon me, stay with me and help me find out. I appreciate the assignment, but it's not for me to carry out by myself. That would just be simply, purely egocentric a way to deal with power. Put the way I'm working with it into question, please. Did I address which you are? Huh? Did I? Trying to catch up. We're trying to catch up. I think I will be at more conversations.

[56:14]

Huh? To operationalize the conversation for me with a different face than you. So thinking of the teaching, the universal teaching, but then the teaching works differently for... the different packages, carrying and pinching. Right. That's right. You have to see. You have to see. You have to see. Okay. So I hear you say you have to see, and I have something to say. You want to hear it? Seeing is fine, but... But in order not to get stuck in the seeing, you have to use your language, you have to talk. Seeing is too dominant. We're not eliminating seeing.

[57:17]

We need to bring a conversation together with the seeing. So the language cuts through the vision. fine to see, but in a conversation. I'll be right back. Yes. I heard recently and going forward maybe in a conversation where with members of my family in which we really can't seem to agree on the same reality at the same the same facts underlying the situation. What has happened? And I find that so... I feel like I've stopped talking in that situation because I don't know what to say.

[58:20]

We seem so far apart. If we can't say or we know this has happened, and it seems to silence things. This not being able to talk is a good place to build a sanctuary. That setup, that sounds like it's hard to even remember to build a sanctuary in not being able to talk. Not being able to talk is kind of related to being suffocated. We're exhausted. So that's another good place to build a sanctuary. And here I am in this family situation, and I feel like I can't talk. It's very hard. Okay, now, wait a second. There's something I'm supposed to remember here. What is it? Oh, yeah. I'm in a family situation where I'm blocked. I can't speak. But I can remember to build a sanctuary here.

[59:22]

Once you remember that's what you're up to, then the next phase will... How can I meet... Okay, now, sanctuary. This is a place to meet. Meet not being able to talk. And then, again, if I'm meeting that, then you may find some words. There are words there, but they may not arrive until you set up a situation for them to arrive. It's not like desperately looking for something to say. That's not really what you're looking for. Those words... I'm not reading the words. They're not a conversation. They're more like rebellion against reassignment to build a sanctuary and to start the conversation. Again, start with silence and stillness in the sanctuary. And then the words will come.

[60:24]

And they'll come from the other But that's hard. But not impossible. And it's not like you're just like collapsing under the not being able to talk. You're like a busy sanctuary builder. I'm not just busy, you're a heroic, somebody who can remember her job to build a refuge for the practice. And then remember, what's the practice? Oh yeah, it's meeting. It's meeting these people who are making, who are conditioned for me not being able to talk. But although I can't talk, I can meet this situation. And then suddenly there's words and they may come out of me or they may be in me, but they come from the other. They're in my head or come out of my mouth, but I didn't.

[61:30]

I didn't go get them. Okay. I see Leo. Is there somebody before Leo? Leo, and then are you making gestures over there? No. Leo? What if we try to make a sanctuary, but we fail? What if you fail? That's a good place to build a sanctuary. which is similar to make a sanctuary, and the sanctuary collapses. So not being able to is enough. On the surface of the earth, there's lots of spots called failure. And the Buddha points to each failure. The Buddha doesn't say that's not a failure. The Buddha says this failure is a place to build a sanctuary. on success. People sometimes say, I don't even need a sanctuary for success, I'm just going to enjoy it.

[62:39]

No, no. I mean, okay, go ahead and enjoy it. But the Buddha isn't saying enjoy this, enjoy success, or even enjoy, kind of saying enjoy failure in the sense of when there's failure, this is the place to build a sanctuary. This finger is pointing to every situation. And if it's called failure, you build it there. But even though you build a sanctuary in failure, it's just for the moment. And it's impermanent. And you're building a sanctuary, which is a place to remember that sanctuaries are impermanent. A place to practice is impermanent. This temple is impermanent. Now we have water damage over here. You know, on the second floor, the building's been wounded by the rain, by the beautiful, lovely, sweet rain.

[63:40]

It's wounding our building. It's destroying our temple. That's the kind of temple we have. We have a destructible temple. And then we're going to go try to relate to the wound, right? But the building's never going to stop being impermanent. We're going to build sanctuaries all over this place in my body, you know? The leg was broken and they put this metal in and now they come take the metal out. You know, who knows what's next? I don't know what's next, do you? But I hear the Buddha's teaching that whatever comes next will be a good place to build a sanctuary. And some things, again, it's hard to remember it. Yes.

[64:41]

The instruction is to build a sanctuary, but the phrase that comes to my mind that feels good to me is to take sanctuary in the present moment and the stillness is always there. And I don't have to create. It's already there. Taking sanctuary, like taking refuge in that and then from that, That's still a mess. Just the taking rather than building feels helpful to me because it's not like I have to create something extra. It's just touching what's already available. A Buddha smiled. It's not in me. He smiled. I forgot to mention the Buddha smiled. Yes and yes.

[65:46]

I sometimes feel like building sanctuaries is like breathing. Like breathing? Yeah. It is like breathing. I don't think the purpose of the sanctuary is to build it, to get anything from it. It's like you don't get anything from your breathing. You just breathe. So building a sanctuary... Well, it depends. Some people might want to build a sanctuary to get something. Yeah, and then maybe that's why I wonder if when you want to get something from it, maybe the getting is what makes you feel you failed or you succeeded. Yeah, that seems to be the case for a lot of people. And then people kind of realize, yeah, I built a sanctuary to get things and then... Things went that way, and now I see that's maybe not the way I want to go. I want to change the purpose of my sanctuaries in the future. I want to build sanctuaries to practice, not trying to get anything, but to give things.

[66:52]

That's the kind of... And I tried to build sanctuaries before this other way, and I see that it did not work. And I also heard from Laboya that it doesn't work to build sanctuaries to get stuff. That's our natural animal inclination, is to be acquisitive. And again, being acquisitive is a good place to build a sanctuary. To give up being acquisitive. Animals are generally acquisitive. Biologically, we're acquisitive. We're trying to get energy. We're trying to take, we're trying to take, get all the time. We're trying, you know, we're deluded and desirous, trying to get something. And when we notice that we're trying to be that way, that's a good place to build a sanctuary to, for example, letting go of that natural biological tendency.

[68:00]

Practicing compassion with it and having conversations about it. Do you have anything to say to me? Yes. What is it? Are you trying to get something out of this? Are you trying to get something out of this conversation? If we build sanctuaries on something that, let's say, I failed, and then I want to build sanctuaries on what I failed, then that building is also not, that sanctuary is not also pure either. It's as a result of... Wait a second, I missed what made it not pure. I didn't see what made it not pure. Because I'm doing it from a reason prior to that. It doesn't come out as... That wouldn't be... That would be a defiled sanctuary. Yeah, so... So you can build sanctuaries to defilement.

[69:05]

If you want to. So if you build sanctuaries on defilement, then... Not on defilement. Every place, all defilements are... Yeah. So all defilements are good places to build sanctuaries, and some people would like to build sanctuaries to make more defilement. That, I can see that, because if you build sanctuaries... But I'm not talking about that type. I'm talking about on the defilement, All defilements are good places to build sanctuaries to reality. But reality is people are allowed to perpetuate defilement. That's fine. We're totally supportive of that. If anybody wants to do that. And some people do. They say, well, yeah, yeah, I heard that. I've got to do the defilement a little bit longer before I'm ready to try the other way. That's pure. If you're aware of it and you're doing it in a different way and you're sincere, that's okay.

[70:09]

It's moving in the right direction. It's not quite pure yet because you still think you know what you're doing. Yes? About receiving sanctuaries and not even, I don't know, like a whole saint might receiving, be the recipient, maybe. I don't know, it just came to my mind. At the risk of, well, whatever, I'm crazy. But I think, I see, I see this little Angela. Little Angela. A new name for you. Yeah, inside. There she is, and we have conversation when I sit. She's at the windowsill. And she says, come on, come on, yeah, let's mature. And let's mature all beings. Come on, Angela. So the little Angela tells the big Angela to mature, or the big Angela tells the little Angela? No, no, the little Angela is saying this to the big Angela.

[71:11]

Okay. And then, and then, ego, I guess it would be. Right, ego. There's two egos there. One, two. A little one and a big one. Yeah. And I watch myself. daily. And it's painful. Trying to get away. Trying to get away from the face to face. Yeah, so trying to get away is guess what? Trying to get away is... Is a good place to build a sanctuary. And then there's this magic. And then there's this... Other voice that said, oh, silly Angela, there's nowhere to go. That's a good place to. Yes, and so maybe that's when I hear that voice, there's no place to go. You know, here you are. No place to go is a good place to build a sanctuary.

[72:13]

It's not a truth. It's a good place to build a sanctuary. Well... Well... I mean, ultimately, right? It seems like you could run, but really, wherever you are, there you are. And so this line of reasoning is a good place to build a sanctuary. To build a sanctuary. But... But, that's a good place to build a sanctuary. To read, I think, from my mind, I'm saying... to use the word receive. You receive the sanctuary that is here that you don't see, that you're not realizing. Yeah. It's give and receive. Yes. But guess what? It kind of starts with giving. Starts with giving. And then there's receiving. Again, giving and receiving the face.

[73:16]

Give sanctuary building and then receive sanctuary building. And every place is a good place to give and receive. Every phenomena is a good place. Congratulations. Okay, let's see. Where did the clock go? Oh, there it is. This is 12.30, so maybe is there anything else before we have lunch? Sanctuary's lunch? No, no, no. Lunch is a good place to build a sanctuary.

[74:13]

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